Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Someone tell him that 「宇宙」has the meaning of Universe, and that Space in this context refers to Cosmos, regarding the rest, I disagree, there are several ways to shoot this down and the main pages of vol 12 and some of 19 are more than enough. and one even the reading capacity.

And in case you're asking, not all OTLs have the same thing, the Spanish version corrects all the errors of the English version that make it more reliable than the Japanese version.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Someone tell him that 「宇宙」has the meaning of Universe, and that Space in this context refers to Cosmos, regarding the rest, I disagree, there are several ways to shoot this down and the main pages of vol 12 and some of 19 are more than enough. and one even the reading capacity.

And in case you're asking, not all OTLs have the same thing, the Spanish version corrects all the errors of the English version that make it more reliable than the Japanese version.

You would need to provide evidence why Universe would be more credible than space in the instance I think youre referring to, which is the "Universe is vast" line.

 

[Luxxy_Ethereal]

I don't really follow this verse, so I'm neutral.

 

[Vietthai96]

the Spanish version corrects all the errors of the English version that make it more reliable than the Japanese version

what?, if i'm reading this right, you meant that Spanish version is more correct and reliable than Japanese version - the original????

 

[3Pencil]

You bring up a "contradiction" even when i state yuuki was implying possibilities and i noted that it was the only statement that could be any actual statement, stating something is a universe. HOWEVER, its questioned and not confirmed, so where's the confirmation?

Also, bring forth the line that implies worlds > universes, so we can discuss that point in depth.

"Space was a big place, but not as large as the universe they’d come from."

From the otl

"The universe is vast, but not as vast as the other worlds. "

From mtl

If you decides to agree with the mtl then good, if you agree with otl even better since that would debunk your claim about not a multiverse, since you will have to agree the Cosmo houses more universe since it's clear the main universe and the cornu universe are different.

If you agree with the mtl you will have to agree about a multiversal structure since dimensions supposedly contains timelines and worlds

 

[Ultimuru]

You would need to provide evidence why Universe would be more credible than space in the instance I think youre referring to, which is the "Universe is vast" line.

...Did you just asked for a proof why original Japanese version of text is more credible than translated one?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

...Did you just asked for a proof why original Japanese version of text is more credible than translated one?

Uchu can mean space or universe depends on context

 

[TheHyperGuy]

"Space was a big place, but not as large as the universe they’d come from."

From the otl

"The universe is vast, but not as vast as the other worlds. "

From mtl

If you decides to agree with the mtl then good, if you agree with otl even better since that would debunk your claim about not a multiverse, since you will have to agree the Cosmo houses more universe since it's clear the main universe and the cornu universe are different.

If you agree with the mtl you will have to agree about a multiversal structure since dimensions supposedly contains timelines and worlds

The first things I say about that, is that it's a mistranlation from the OTL, since their use of universe isnt backed by the kanji. But i equally drew contentions with the use of universe from the mtl, so again, we have to come to a conclusion of whether or not Space or Universe is more reliable based on context.

And you seem to ignore the main contention that being called a universe is not even enough, but we need a confirmed size.

So even if I agree with mtl on this, I still disagree with the multiversal structure.

 

[3Pencil]

You dont need the whole scan, that one line implies a universe still exists for ciel to traverse.

He was also sent to the "end" of time and space, not beyond it. Time and space was still present, and theres multiple reasons to believe that.

For example, he is able to use space/time leap which requires spatial and temporal coordinates to activate. Not only that, but it was never even implies space and time weren't present, just that they halted all movement.

So again, the universe wasnt "destroyed" in a literal sense, but nothing was present, or seemed to be present at the end of the universe.

You are mixing it up
Beyond literally means outside or above in this case spacetime would still exist, it just means you are outside it
End simply means total absences of spacetime

 

[TheHyperGuy]

...Did you just asked for a proof why original Japanese version of text is more credible than translated one?

No, 宇宙 can mean; Universe, cosmos or space.

Im saying why we should take the translation of Universe over space in this instance. Cause the implications can be vastly different depending on which word we use.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

You are mixing it up
Beyond literally means outside or above in this case spacetime would still exist, it just means you are outside it
End simply means total absences of spacetime

Where is this beyond translation coming from? It was stated to be the end of space and time multiples times, so where is this "beyond" stuff coming from?

Even then, beyond outside of space and time means where you are at, there is no space and time, since you are outside of it. If I go outside my house, im not in my house

 

[Vietthai96]

Uchu can mean space or universe depends on context

if we sematically talking about Japanese, the term 宇宙, the original meaning is the outer space, or rather space that is outside the Earth, a very generic term

 

[3Pencil]

The first things I say about that, is that it's a mistranlation from the OTL, since their use of universe isnt backed by the kanji. But i equally drew contentions with the use of universe from the mtl, so again, we have to come to a conclusion of whether or not Space or Universe is more reliable based on context.

And you seem to ignore the main contention that being called a universe is not even enough, but we need a confirmed size.

So even if I agree with mtl on this, I still disagree with the multiversal structure.

Nuh uh
Your disagreement doesn't make sense since in the first place what's the size of a universe?
This is a first for me hearing about needing to confirm the size of a universe in this wiki and afaik space and universe uses the same kajin ( I might be wrong since I don't know Japanese)

 

[3Pencil]

Where is this beyond translation coming from? It was stated to be the end of space and time multiples times, so where is this "beyond" stuff coming from?

Even then, beyond outside of space and time means where you are at, there is no space and time, since you are outside of it. If I go outside my house, im not in my house

You seems to misunderstood me lol
I am not even bringing up the beyond I just commented beyond based on your comment

And end is even more literal than beyond, imagine that same house blowing up that's the end of the house and you who went beyond is now homeless

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Nuh uh
Your disagreement doesn't make sense since in the first place what's the size of a universe?
This is a first for me hearing about needing to confirm the size of a universe in this wiki and afaik space and universe uses the same kajin ( I might be wrong since I don't know Japanese)

Im not going to restate my points over and over. Just refer back here for the main contention regarding size;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179000

You seems to misunderstood me lol
I am not even bringing up the beyond I just commented beyond based on your comment

And end is even more literal than beyond, imagine that same house blowing up that's the end of the house and you who went beyond is now homeless

You did bring up Beyond, ive been making it consistent about it being the end. Unless I mightve said it and dont remember.

Also, thats a false apology, since that would mean the house isnt there anymore, but the universe is still there, just everything inside is implied to not be there, so its more like everything in the house, furniture, paintings etc, is gone.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Things really changed in this wiki it seems, I just got my account set up and now everything is unusable. Welp, with the existence of 時間軸, the OTL has more credibility than Slime Reader.

OTL other than the English version, that thing has too many errors that other OTLs have to do it, unfortunately I forgot to mention that in part 3 of the "downgrade" thread you made a few months ago.

 

[Ultimuru]

No, 宇宙 can mean; Universe, cosmos or space.

Im saying why we should take the translation of Universe over space in this instance. Cause the implications can be vastly different depending on which word we use.

But speculating which translation is correct one for this word doesn't really prove anything. Space/universe was mentioned and after that Velgrynd mentioned another world/universe as comparison. It means there is definitely more than one universe if narration itself states it.

We can say it's space. Still universe is mentioned later as separate thing.
We can say it's universe. Still other worlds are described as vaster things.
Even if we replace other worlds with universe, just like OTL did, and it still implies existence of multiple universes.

Sure, we don't know size of these "universes" but if narration itself is referring to it as to universe, why we are questioning it? It's like asking "Yes, narration calls them human. But do you have a proof for them having same insides as every other human?"

Saying that universe is not universe, or that Feldway didn't destroyed universe, even when it's stated directly he destroyed it. In this way you can downgrade literally any verse by bringing alternative translation or reducing feats to metaphors.

 

[3Pencil]

Im not going to restate my points over and over. Just refer back here for the main contention regarding size;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179000

I wouldn't be checking what I already checked

You did bring up Beyond, ive been making it consistent about it being the end. Unless I mightve said it and dont remember.

Also, thats a false apology, since that would mean the house isnt there anymore, but the universe is still there, just everything inside is implied to not be there, so its more like everything in the house, furniture, paintings etc, is gone.

And rimuru got BFR to the end of spacetime and watched the universe die out but subspace still existed

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

what?, if i'm reading this right, you meant that Spanish version is more correct and reliable than Japanese version - the original????

Yes, I know the translator of the novel in Spanish and he has spent several months correcting the English version and reviewing the Japanese so that it is well translated, which the English version has many errors and those of us in the Tensura fandom know that.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

You would need to provide evidence why Universe would be more credible than space in the instance I think youre referring to, which is the "Universe is vast" line.

I mean that in this kanji, space and cosmo are practically the same (or literally) I have seen that they are 3 to refer to space, and this is not the one you think

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Sure, we don't know size of these "universes" but if narration itself is referring to it as to universe, why we are questioning it? It's like asking "Yes, narration calls them human. But do you have a proof for them having same insides as every other human?"

Saying that universe is not universe, or that Feldway didn't destroyed universe, even when it's stated directly he destroyed it. In this way you can downgrade literally any verse by bringing alternative translation or reducing feats to metaphors.

For the sake of argument, since this isnt going anywhere, let's just accept they are called universes. Fine, thats okay. But the main contention is whether these qualify as universes per vsbw standard. And that means proving the size of them is equal to our observable universe, which again is still left without evidence supporting it, and there being a lack of evidence to dispute my arguments against the sizes being such.

Feldway didnt destroy the universe;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179380

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I wouldn't be checking what I already checked

Checked this as well?
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179394

And rimuru got BFR to the end of spacetime and watched the universe die out but subspace still existed

Where is it stated that subspace was still around? Also that doesnt even refute the primary contention, since the universe still existed to.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Why are we talking about the size of worlds when that was downgraded previously based off one line. We know the size of worlds, for now it’s been accepted as various from solar system to universal.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I mean that in this kanji, space and cosmo are practically the same (or literally) I have seen that they are 3 to refer to space, and this is not the one you think

Which one are you referring to?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Why are we talking about the size of worlds when that was downgraded previously based off one line. We know the size of worlds, for now it’s been accepted as various from solar system to universal.

What was the proof or the points that supports some of them being universes?

In this thread, there was an argument trying to prove all of these dimensions are called universes, which puts into question if size is even a determining factor for being called a universe in tensura.

So this is supposed to disprove the identity of "universe" as being vsbw's equivalent.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Checked this as well?
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179394



Where is it stated that subspace was still around? Also that doesnt even refute the primary contention, since the universe still existed to.

You're talking about the world that's connected to infinite timelines (so to speak) and that it's the most resilient world of all because it was created with the power of Veldanava? "Cardinal World"?

Why are we talking about the size of worlds when that was downgraded previously based off one line. We know the size of worlds, for now it’s been accepted as various from solar system to universal.

Why do you say the latter if we now know that that space refers to the cosmos/universe and that it is mentioned that they are larger?

 

[Ultimuru]

For the sake of argument, since this isnt going anywhere, let's just accept they are called universes. Fine, thats okay. But the main contention is whether these qualify as universes per vsbw standard. And that means proving the size of them is equal to our observable universe, which again is still left without evidence supporting it, and there being a lack of evidence to dispute my arguments against the sizes being such.

Feldway didnt destroy the universe;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179380

Not gonna lie, this is literally the first time in my life when I see that universe need to have confirmed size to be considered as universe on VSBW. I wonder how many verses is considered universal without confirmed size.

And I saw your comment about Ciel. Just like in case we are currently discussing, it uses 宇宙 (uchū) which may have different meaning in this context. Since universe was already destroyed by Feldway, but Cardinal World itself didn't collapsed. If I would have to guess, Ciel was travelling trough "space" that was left after destroyed universe. Ciel doesn't have physical body, she doesn't have to physically move to see what is happening around, so literal spacetime is not needed for her to "travel". Her range of observation can reach even earth (as we could see in Tensura X files) so I wouldn't be surprised if Feldway would destroy universe, and she was observing leftovers and how Ivarage destroys entire world and finishes the job. I find it as the most logical option. Otherwise it would be pointless in saying that Feldway destroyed universe of Cardinal World, especially by using ほろぼす / horobosu which main meaning is destruction of something.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

You're talking about the world that's connected to infinite timelines (so to speak) and that it's the most resilient world of all because it was created with the power of Veldanava? "Cardinal World"?

There are no infinite timelines, that was heavily disputed in the OP and not contested, you can try to refute my claims about it though.

Why do you say the latter if we now know that that space refers to the cosmos/universe and that it is mentioned that they are larger?

Cause being larger than a universes seems more extrodinary than just trying to claim the otherworld is more vast than space. Implying that theres more to explore.

Even if we use the universe part, it still relies on what size is this "universe".

 

[Lycoris4812]

What was the proof or the points that supports some of them being universes?

There’s a whole bunch of them throughout this thread.

In this thread, there was an argument trying to prove all of these dimensions are called universes, which puts into question if size is even a determining factor for being called a universe in tensura.

So this is supposed to disprove the identity of "universe" as being vsbw's equivalent.

Size shouldn’t matter now cause it’s already been decided.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

Which one are you referring to?

The kanji you pointed out before refers to synonyms of Universe, that is, everything points to the same thing no matter how you look at it, it can even refer to this one.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

There are no infinite timelines, that was heavily disputed in the OP and not contested, you can try to refute my claims about it though.

Sorry, the argument for that was so bad I thought it had already been clarified here.

Regarding the timelines... something like this was already done (proposing arguments like the ones you're trying to give) almost a year ago, where everything was addressed, although it was in a thread that was simply derailing.

Cause being larger than a universes seems more extrodinary than just trying to claim the otherworld is more vast than space. Implying that theres more to explore.

Even if we use the universe part, it still relies on what size is this "universe".

I think I mean there are even bigger worlds, right?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Not gonna lie, this is literally the first time in my life when I see that universe need to have confirmed size to be considered as universe on VSBW. I wonder how many verses is considered universal without confirmed size.

Well if Other verses have space/times vary in size and being called universe inverse doesnt relate to size, then its put into question the size of these "universes"

Since universe was already destroyed by Feldway, but Cardinal World itself didn't collapsed.

The universe wasnt destroyed;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179380

Also, the cardinal world is the planet. I believe i already discussed this in a prior reply.
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179008

Ciel was travelling trough "space" that was left after destroyed universe. Ciel doesn't have physical body, she doesn't have to physically move to see what is happening around, so literal spacetime is not needed for her to "travel".

ciel can use rimurus body to travel, we already know she could take over his body. This isnt a good point.

Otherwise it would be pointless in saying that Feldway destroyed universe of Cardinal World, especially by using ほろぼす / horobosu which main meaning is destruction of something.

Feldway was presumed to be only able to destroy the universe, but this doesnt mean the universe is gone, just like this thread proves zelario didnt destroy dimensions actually;
Thread 'TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensura-ln-major-misleading-revision-part-3-revised.179236/

We also know it still exists via my prior reply.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The kanji you pointed out before refers to synonyms of Universe, that is, everything points to the same thing no matter how you look at it, it can even refer to this one.

But the issue is being called a universe. Space just means an expansive area like outer space which doesnt have a size connected to it, while "Universe" typically does, but im putting into question the sizes of universes in tensura arent why they are classified as universes

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Regarding the timelines... something like this was already done (proposing arguments like the ones you're trying to give) almost a year ago, where everything was addressed, although it was in a thread that was simply derailing.

Im bringing up the timelines with seemingly new arguments, so we should focus on the arguments and evidence i presented instead of referring back.

I think I mean there are even bigger worlds, right?

Thats not being disputed, but the size of these worlds are being disputed.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

There’s a whole bunch of them throughout this thread

I meant universe in size, since thats the contention.

Size shouldn’t matter now cause it’s already been decided.

It should since im putting to question that simply being called a universe in tensura doesnt mean its the same size, since the sizes vary and opposition of this argument are trying to say each of these worlds are universes.

 

[Lycoris4812]

It should since im putting to question that simply being called a universe in tensura doesnt mean its the same size, since the sizes vary and opposition of this argument are trying to say each of these worlds are universes.

Idk why everyone is arguing about this now. It’s already been decided and we should have made an upgrade crt for it anyways. This isn’t even part of your downgrade either, right?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Idk why everyone is arguing about this now. It’s already been decided and we should have made an upgrade crt for it anyways. This isn’t even part of your downgrade either, right?

Well, it was brought up in this thread which is relevant to my overall downgrade, since i believe i brought different arguments than prior.

Edit: Actually one of my main arguments is disputing the sizes, so yes its very relevant to my downgrade

 

[Ultimuru]

The universe wasnt destroyed;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179380

You already sent this. As I said, kanji translated as universe may mean many things. For example cosmos. I am not an expert, but according to google, cosmos still can exist after universe is gone.

Also, the cardinal world is the planet. I believe i already discussed this in a prior reply.
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179008

It's not convincing me. For first point, Feldway first uses name Cardinal World and then mentions earth. To me it suggests two different things. Entire world and a planet in this world. For second example I would like to check raws before saying anything. Maybe will do it later if I find time.

But overall, kanji for cardinal world is 軸世界. It includes 世界 (sekai) which is often used in fiction to describe entire different world. In fantasy often used to describe dimension/universe/realm. When Tensura is speaking about planet, it often uses 星

Example:

「あの氷雪によって氷漬けにされたのは、何も生命体だけではないの。地上そのもの、この星の表面の一部が、ヴェルザード様達の攻撃で壊れないように保護された状態なのよ」

「It wasn't just the life-forms that were frozen by that ice and snow. The surface of the earth itself, part of the surface of this planet, is protected so that it won't break under the attack of Lord Velzard and the others.」

It's MTL so you don't have to believe it and translate it on your own.

ciel can use rimurus body to travel, we already know she could take over his body. This isnt a good point.

Sure, she can do it. But why she would do it if she can observe universe without using his body to travel? She was able to observe other worlds already as Raphael and after evolving to manas her range most likely skyrocketed just like her other abilities.

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

But the issue is being called a universe. Space just means an expansive area like outer space which doesnt have a size connected to it, while "Universe" typically does, but im putting into question the sizes of universes in tensura arent why they are classified as universes

Thank you for showing me that you can't read English or Japanese enough to understand what I wrote to you before when I told you that THERE ARE 3 DIFFERENT KANJIS FOR "SPACE" AND IN THIS CASE IT REFERS TO A SYNONYM OF UNIVERSE!!

Im bringing up the timelines with seemingly new arguments, so we should focus on the arguments and evidence i presented instead of referring back..

Not at all, you are using the same arguments, although you also add the worlds and other things that don't have much to do with it, although that doesn't change anything.

 

[Ultimuru]

Well if Other verses have space/times vary in size and being called universe inverse doesnt relate to size, then its put into question the size of these "universes"


The universe wasnt destroyed;
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179380

Also, the cardinal world is the planet. I believe i already discussed this in a prior reply.
Post in thread 'Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179008

ciel can use rimurus body to travel, we already know she could take over his body. This isnt a good point.

Feldway was presumed to be only able to destroy the universe, but this doesnt mean the universe is gone, just like this thread proves zelario didnt destroy dimensions actually;
Thread 'TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)' https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensura-ln-major-misleading-revision-part-3-revised.179236/

We also know it still exists via my prior reply.

Also, small addition to that, Ciel also could use it as metaphor. Like, not literally travelling trough universe.

宇宙を漂うように- As if drifting through space

In context, she wandered, and her wandering was like drifting through a starless universe.
She did not say she was literally drifting through the universe, but rather she wandered in a way that felt like it.

But again, would be cool if translator would take look at it. Here is entire sentence


《──その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨さまよい、この世界の終わりを見届けたのです》