Tensura is NOT a multiverse! (Tensura cosmology downgrade)

[TheHyperGuy]

You already sent this. As I said, kanji translated as universe may mean many things. For example cosmos. I am not an expert, but according to google, cosmos still can exist after universe is gone.

The whole point of it being resent is to understand the universe is still there.

It's not convincing me. For first point, Feldway first uses name Cardinal World and then mentions earth. To me it suggests two different things. Entire world and a planet in this world. For second example I would like to check raws before saying anything. Maybe will do it later if I find time.

They are referring to the cardinal world as earth, because Mai create a 3D image of the cardinal world in its entirety, then it states it's a miniature of the earth. What's a miniature of the eart? The 3D image, which is showing the cardinal world.

Theres no reason to believe its too separate images being shown, just one image, the cardinal world.

But overall, kanji for cardinal world is 軸世界. It includes 世界 (sekai) which is often used in fiction to describe entire different world. In fantasy often used to describe dimension/universe/realm. When Tensura is speaking about planet, it often uses 星

This is just going back to what's considered world. Planet is hardly used just like universe, even though planet is stated more times. The issue is world most often times refers to the planet. Not using the kanji doesnt mean it isnt referencing the planet.

In what way has Cardinal world shown any context of being a universe? Or greater than a planet?

Sure, she can do it. But why she would do it if she can observe universe without using his body to travel? She was able to observe other worlds already as Raphael and after evolving to manas her range most likely skyrocketed just like her other abilities.

Doesnt matter since we are told she is moving through the universes.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Thank you for showing me that you can't read English or Japanese enough to understand what I wrote to you before when I told you that THERE ARE 3 DIFFERENT KANJIS FOR "SPACE" AND IN THIS CASE IT REFERS TO A SYNONYM OF UNIVERSE!!

So let's not get this aggressive, not really making your point more valid when you are being passive agressive like that.

Space and Universe are not really synonyms anyway, since they could refer to separate things. If they were synonyms, then what's the point of differentiating them? Space doesnt attach a general notion of size while universe does, which youve yet to respond to.

Not at all, you are using the same arguments, although you also add the worlds and other things that don't have much to do with it, although that doesn't change anything.

Ok so what in my arguments were already shown before? I proved enough that chloe was cycling through the same timeline, which disproves multiple timelines existing in one world. So again, where is the refutations to that?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Also, small addition to that, Ciel also could use it as metaphor. Like, not literally travelling trough universe.

宇宙を漂うように- As if drifting through space

In context, she wandered, and her wandering was like drifting through a starless universe.
She did not say she was literally drifting through the universe, but rather she wandered in a way that felt like it.

But again, would be cool if translator would take look at it. Here is entire sentence

Using 彷徨 which means to roam or to wander. I dont see how that would be in a sense drifting without physicaly movement by yourself.

Again, translators could help confirm this.

 

[SeijiSetto]

can someone put the things that need translations in one post so i don't need to scour the entire thread and potentially miss one
if there's ambiguity i'll probably just say so and offer my own opinion if it's asked for

 

[TheHyperGuy]

can someone put the things that need translations in one post so i don't need to scour the entire thread and potentially miss one
if there's ambiguity i'll probably just say so and offer my own opinion if it's asked for

I had them in the translation thread, but here they are again plus this last one needed.

1. 宇宙の彼方なのか、異次元の果てなのか......。唯一つ確かなのは、 災禍の化身であるという事だ。

2. 跳ばされた先だが、人が生息している別次元世界だったらまだマシで、何もない宇宙の終焉だったり、生命が誕生する前の大破壊の真っ最中だっ たりしても不思議ではない.

3. ただし、その秘めたる威力は――宇宙開闢以来で最大となる、絶禍の破 壊力を生じさせるものだった。

4.《その通りです。 フェルドウェイの“時空跳激震覇〟で、我々は時空の彼 方へと跳ばされました。 そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりました が、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。 フェルドウェイの力では、 基 軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

5.『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の 球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うん だ」
『宇宙う?』

6. (そもそもさ、この場に三人いるっていうのも、ちょっと引っかかるんだ よね。時空嵐? そんな宇宙開闢並みに珍しい事象と遭遇して、かつ無事 に乗り切り、運よく知り合いのいる場所まで跳ばされるなんて、そんなの 絶対に偶然じゃないもの)が、人が生息している別次元世界だったらまだマシで、何もない宇宙の終焉だったり、生命が誕生する前の大破壊の真っ最中だっ たりしても不思議ではない.

3. ただし、その秘めたる威力は――宇宙開闢以来で最大となる、絶禍の破 壊力を生じさせるものだった。

4.《その通りです。 フェルドウェイの“時空跳激震覇〟で、我々は時空の彼 方へと跳ばされました。 そこでは星の寿命はとっくに尽きておりました が、世界の崩壊へは至っていませんでした。 フェルドウェイの力では、 基 軸世界の宇宙を滅ぼすだけで限界だったのだと推測されます》

5.『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の 球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うん だ」
『宇宙う?』

6. (そもそもさ、この場に三人いるっていうのも、ちょっと引っかかるんだ よね。時空嵐? そんな宇宙開闢並みに珍しい事象と遭遇して、かつ無事 に乗り切り、運よく知り合いのいる場所まで跳ばされるなんて、そんなの 絶対に偶然じゃないもの)

7. 俺の「虚数空間」は無限に広がっているらしく、まだ満たされていないのだそうだ。

8. 世界を何万回でも再構築出来るほど充たされているというのに。

9.《―――その後、星すら瞬かぬ宇宙を漂うように彷徨<[さまよ]い、 この世界の終わりを見届けたのです≫ (does this mean ciel traveled physically through the universe or simply drifted?)

Edit: i also want to know what's stopping this: (宇宙は広いが、異界ほどではない。) From being "space is vast" Instead of "the universe is vast"

Also this one (『うーん、ずっと観察していて気付いたんだけどさ、さっきそこで虹色の 球が膨らんで消えただろ? アレって多分、一つの世界、宇宙だと思うん だ」
『宇宙う?』)
Is that relating to two possibilities, like a world OR universe, or specifying world to universe.

 

[Ultimuru]

Using 彷徨 which means to roam or to wander. I dont see how that would be in a sense drifting without physicaly movement by yourself.

Again, translators could help confirm this.

Yeah but the core of my message was that Ciel was not literally travelling trough existing universe, but said it was AS IF traveling trough universe. Because there was used ように (yō ni) — “as if,” “like”

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Yeah but the core of my message was that Ciel was not literally travelling trough existing universe, but said it was AS IF traveling trough universe. Because there was used ように (yō ni) — “as if,” “like”

I dont see the context supporting that, but let the translator do their thing

 

[Lycoris4812]

Vol 21 otl is coming out in 4 days. If the translations are overwhelming we can wait for it. It might help explain some stuff.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

I just remembered these, Zalario fighting the insectars for more that tens of billions of years while in the ''Other World'' meaning that it should show that the size of the other world should be beyond that of the observable universe considering the ''space expands faster than light'' statement could imply that it has the same expansion rate as our universe (or the original world where Yuuki, Hinata and Rimuru come from).

In order to prevent this from happening, Zalario had refined his technique to cut accurately at the enemy’s weakest points. Since time in the other world and the Cardinal World were different, Zalario felt as if he had been fighting for more than tens of billions of years. Despite this, his skill with the sword had plateaued because he specialized in the characteristics of insectar enemies. Nevertheless, some of them were unusually good fighters, so Zalario’s strength had reached an unimaginable level.

そうならないよう、
相手の隙をついて弱点を正確に斬る技術が磨かれた結果であった。
異界と基軸世界では流れる時間が違う為、ザラリオの体感時間で
は数百億年以上もの永きに渡って、戦い続けているようなものなの
だ。それなのに剣の技量が頭打ちなのは、蟲魔族(インセクター)と
いう敵の特性に特化してしまったせいである。それでも、中には異
常なまでの戦上手もいたので、ザラリオの強さは想像を絶するレベ
ルに達していたのだ。

It couldn’t be helped. An Ultimate Skill was something that was normally extremely difficult to acquire. It was so difficult that even Zalario, who had been alive for more than tens of billions of years, had just finally acquired it by himself. He knew of its existence, but he thought he did not need it. Perhaps that was why he couldn’t acquire it, but still.

究極能力(アルティメットスキル)というのは、普通なら獲得する
のも困難極まりないような代物なのだ。それこそ、体感時間にして
数百億年以上も生きているザラリオが、ようやく自力で獲得したほ
どに。その存在は知っていたが、自分には不要だとも思っていた。

So the more than ''tens of billions of years'' can be applied at least to the age of the ''Other World'', assuming the lowest estimate being 20 billion years and then using the expansion rate of our universe that being 73 kilometers per second per megaparsec (km/s/Mpc) that would give a diameter of 135 billion light-years at lowest estimate and the highest possible one being 670 billion light-years but in my opinion the first one seems more realistic.

But I could be wrong, so I will request it in the calculations thread.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I just remembered these, Zalario fighting the insectars for more that tens of billions of years while in the ''Other World'' meaning that it should show that the size of the other world should be beyond that of the observable universe considering the ''space expands faster than light'' statement could imply that it has the same expansion rate as our universe (or the original world where Yuuki, Hinata and Rimuru come from).

I think this needs some looking into, since the words used was "...felt as if he had been fighting..." Makes it sound as if it's only based on perspective, not actually billions of years, like time in that other world moved slowly so it felt like a certain number of years when it really wasn't.

I also know suspended world was used multiple times during this volume, so what was the "other world" he was fighting in, I don't remember seeing any particular world he left for, but if someone can bring in what world he was in and if it was affected by suspended world or not, would be nice to know.

So the more than ''tens of billions of years'' can be applied at least to the age of the ''Other World'', assuming the lowest estimate being 20 billion years and then using the expansion rate of our universe that being 73 kilometers per second per megaparsec (km/s/Mpc) that would give a diameter of 135 billion light-years at lowest estimate and the highest possible one being 670 billion light-years but in my opinion the first one seems more realistic.

Didn't we have a translation that confirmed that space expanded at the speed of light? So it'd be 1 to 1 with it's size, 20 billion years equates to 20 billion light years.

Still though, I think we should find more information on the world Zalario was fighting on.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

I think this needs some looking into, since the words used was "...felt as if he had been fighting..." Makes it sound as if it's only based on perspective, not actually billions of years, like time in that other world moved slowly so it felt like a certain number of years when it really wasn't.

Time was just different from the cardinal world so that is also one of the reasons why Mai thought it was impossible to see her brother due to the unsynchronized timelines between the worlds.

Mai had an almost infinite lifespan, but even so, she concluded that it was impossible. The time axis of each dimension was different. If the time axes were synchronized between worlds, there would be no time difference even if the dimension leaps. In reality, however, such a phenomenon could not be expected.

間軸は異なっているからだ。時間軸を同期させた状態の世界間なら、次元跳躍しても時差はない。しかし現実的には、そういう現象は期待出来なかった。

I also know suspended world was used multiple times during this volume, so what was the "other world" he was fighting in, I don't remember seeing any particular world he left for, but if someone can bring in what world he was in and if it was affected by suspended world or not, would be nice to know.

The same world where ivarage was in that doesn't have planets only orbs of magisteel, and Zalario hasn't been shown to be a digital lifeform, it happened because worlds/dimensions have their own timelines and speed different from another so while time in the cardinal world was ''normal'', Zalario was in the Other World was experiencing time in that world as normal.

Didn't we have a translation that confirmed that space expanded at the speed of light? So it'd be 1 to 1 with it's size, 20 billion years equates to 20 billion light years.

Still though, I think we should find more information on the world Zalario was fighting on.

That translation says ''Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.'' so it should be fine.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

That translation says ''Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.'' so it should be fine.

Fair enough.

Time was just different from the cardinal world so that is also one of the reasons why Mai thought it was impossible to see her brother due to the unsynchronized timelines between the worlds.

What would the unsynchronized timeline refer back to though? Is it time flows faster in one then the other? Or slower? If the other world in that instance flows slower, then the timeline itself isn't going through years, but to Zalario, it is. Similar to subspace which was stated that time flowed slowly

Strictly speaking, time does flow. However, since there's no way to observe it, Yuuki guesses that "time doesn't flow" or "it flows very slowly" based on his own fatigue level and the fact that he doesn't get hungry.

So I think this needs to be evaluated similarly considering that Zalario "felt" as if that time was that long. Which to me implies time moved slowly where he was at but his own perspective of time was tens of billions of years.

Which I would like to have clarified.

Also the raws show a form of subjective perspective, so need translator on this too T_T

異界と基軸世界では流れる時間が違う為、
Because in the Otherworld and Cardinal World, the flowing time is different,
ザラリオの体感時間では数百億年以上もの永きに渡って、
In Zarario’s experienced time, over a long period of more than hundreds of billions of years,
戦い続けているようなものなのだ。
It is like he has been continuing to fight.
それなのに剣の技量が頭打ちなのは、
And yet, the reason his sword skill has hit a ceiling is
蟲魔族<[インセクター]という敵の特性に特化してしまったせいである。
Because he ended up specializing in the traits of the enemy called the Insector, the insect demon tribe.

Because time flows differently between the Otherworld and the Core World, from Zarario’s subjective experience, it’s as if he has been fighting continuously for more than hundreds of billions of years.

So Yeah, needs a translation here UGH!

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Wait. HUNDREDS of billions of years. that could mean some crazy development but I'm too much of a sleepy boy to worry about that so I'll deal with it in the morning.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Wait. HUNDREDS of billions of years. that could mean some crazy development but I'm too much of a sleepy boy to worry about that so I'll deal with it in the morning.

I don't know, 数百億年以上もの This is the kanji specifically talking about the years, so I'm waiting for translation cause I don't know, I just sent possible translations

 

[Amalyris]

No, the only requirement is for it to be universe sized or above (including infinite, yes, for High 3-A).

Is it universe sized currently or not?

Still it gives the verse the right for 4D via transcending space and time

Not, not "space/time". Space AND Time, that is, the entire continuum, is what can qualify as 4D. Time itself can also generally be 4D but that's irrelevant here, still, you cannot beat the size requirement here that's absolutely crucial.

Space Time continuum is still there so what is the point I only typed space/time because of his statement "If I have a garage sized space/time and call it a universe, are we now going to allow that to be Low 2-C?"

Yes it is. Read it for yourself please. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe#Universe-sized_Realms_Guidelines

That only applies for universal as for the rest it depends on the structure

There's no need for this sort of hostility here. How'd you feel if he told you to shut it instead? Not great I imagine, so don't. Size of a structure is important as the standards page I sent above says, so he's not disregarding anything, you are.

Brother! he is saying that size is the sole requirements for scaling.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Brother! he is saying that size is the sole requirements for scaling.

You could point stuff out like that when not being rude as all hell and being one of the most agitated (and agitating) people on this site I've seen Now who's worse, can't get upset when you're getting your behavior you can't control pointed out to you and you're wailing like a toddler

 

[3Pencil]

But speculating which translation is correct one for this word doesn't really prove anything. Space/universe was mentioned and after that Velgrynd mentioned another world/universe as comparison. It means there is definitely more than one universe if narration itself states it.

We can say it's space. Still universe is mentioned later as separate thing.
We can say it's universe. Still other worlds are described as vaster things.
Even if we replace other worlds with universe, just like OTL did, and it still implies existence of multiple universes.

Sure, we don't know size of these "universes" but if narration itself is referring to it as to universe, why we are questioning it? It's like asking "Yes, narration calls them human. But do you have a proof for them having same insides as every other human?"

Saying that universe is not universe, or that Feldway didn't destroyed universe, even when it's stated directly he destroyed it. In this way you can downgrade literally any verse by bringing alternative translation or reducing feats to metaphor

You know I kinda get this feeling, previous 2C scaling was downgraded because they questioned the size of worlds which was meh in the first place, and this thread again still uses that same logic " are the universes actually the size of a universe"
OP should just read this statement and tell me how it sounds

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Will Setto survive? Will the Tensura Wank Stop? Will there be a resolution on this thread?
Find out in the next episode of TENSURA DOWNGRADE. EVERY SUNDAY AT 6 PM EASTERN

 

[Amalyris]

You dont need the whole scan, that one line implies a universe still exists for ciel to traverse.

He was also sent to the "end" of time and space, not beyond it. Time and space was still present, and theres multiple reasons to believe that.

Do you understand what Far reaches of time and space? Or do you have the scan saying that he was sent to the end of time and space first before being sent to beyond time and space?


Cuz I had read the same ftl and worlds from a JP friend that RIMURU got sent beyond the time and space(or beyond/outside the universe) before they drifted and reached the end of time and space(the world)

For example, he is able to use space/time leap which requires spatial and temporal coordinates to activate. Not only that, but it was never even implies space and time weren't present, just that they halted all movement.

Do you understand what the word END OF TIME AND SPACE is? It means the time and space of that Universe or the World itself no longer has time, just like how a world no longer exist when it ends

So again, the universe wasnt "destroyed" in a literal sense, but nothing was present, or seemed to be present at the end of the universe.

Brother they GOT SENT TO THE FAR REACHES OF TIME AND SPACE, while there, they drifted until they reached the end of time and space(are we even reading the same novel, or are you taking it out context for the sake of trying to debunk my statement?)

 

[Amalyris]

No, it must be universe sized to qualify for a universe on here.

Just say that it is infinite 3D space

That is so not how cardinality works. For one generic space-time transcendence statements do not mean much without more context.

This is just pure bs at this point, you might aswell remove 4D for other characters who's statements of spacetime transcendance are only little.

You'd have to prove that it is 2^aleph-null to claim that it "transcends the traditional size of infinity", and spoiler alert but statements like those usually aren't enough for that on their own.

Why would I add that there if I wasn't aware how it works

It is 3D spatially yes, it being called 4D just means it would be universe+ sized here, that's all, since we treat time as the 4th (temporal) dimension here.

Ok and what is your point? I already said that 3D is inside the universe, since a universe as a whole would be a spacetime continuum)

There's no reason to believe it's talking about a 4th spatial axis and even if it was, good luck proving that its significant and non-compact

How did you even reach that point, I wasn't even talking about that

 

[3Pencil]

The whole point of it being resent is to understand the universe is still there.

They are referring to the cardinal world as earth, because Mai create a 3D image of the cardinal world in its entirety, then it states it's a miniature of the earth. What's a miniature of the eart? The 3D image, which is showing the cardinal world.

Theres no reason to believe its too separate images being shown, just one image, the cardinal world.

The universe wasn't there what remained was subspace not the universe

"It seems that they jumped through the "space-time distortion path" we went
through, but it's probably just some garbage floating in subspace, and if
Ciel-san doesn't care about it, it's okay. Maybe."

The garbage ciel meant was probably vega who got BFR to the end of spacetime

This is just going back to what's considered world. Planet is hardly used just like universe, even though planet is stated more times. The issue is world most often times refers to the planet. Not using the kanji doesnt mean it isnt referencing the planet.

Worlds, planet and universe has always being used differently

In what way has Cardinal world shown any context of being a universe? Or greater than a planet?

<<Yes, I have. In Feldway's "Chrono-Saltation", we are transported to
the far reaches of space-time. There, the life of the stars had long
expired, but the world had not yet collapsed. I assume that
Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Cardinal World
universe.

See right here, this is the CW being referred to as a universe

Doesnt matter since we are told she is moving through the universes.

Again that wasn't the universe, that was subspace, at this point I am very sure OP doesn't read tensura but just wanted a downgrade for the verse

<- After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star
twinkled, and watched the end of the world.
This is universe and world being used differently, from context alone we can confirm worlds generally are bigger than universe since ciel wandered around in a universe and watched the end of the world this wasn't talking about CW since feldway already destroyed it.

Ciel-san tells him calmly.
Go back to the past?
You mean we can defeat Feldway now ?
There is no way to do that, I thought.
Chloe seemed to be able to 'Time Leap' to read her future memories, but
that was just an ability to go back to her past self.
Besides, it cannot be used while time is suspended.
In this "end of time and space", no time is flowing, so even Chloe probably
can't go back to the past.
-Ciel-san whispers to me

Run that previous comment to me again where you said " time still existed, everything was just halted" or smth

We do not know exactly what happened in that time line.
We do not know exactly what happened in that time line, because when
Ciel-san was jumped, the whole thing was over.
We don't even know what happened to Ivarage or how he moved, but what
we do know for sure is that the world was not destroyed.

They don't know what happened in the CW timeline or how ivarage moved but the "world" wasn't destroyed

IDK how you are able to read and jump context or use your own " theory" we can conclude again that worlds are larger than universes which in this case would apply to all worlds basically any context with world in it since it doesn't refer to a planet nor the universe

And there's something I realized from vol21
•Worlds contains universe and dimensions contains both.

•Subspace contains everything

 

[Amalyris]

Firstly, it was translated to "stars" not planets. Also I never even implied the planet had an infinite lifespan.

Said who? The OTL? Are you really saying that OTL is much more trustworthy than MTL and FTL(based from those who actually are Japanese?)

Honestly, with how many times you have misconstrued my arguments and even red herring them, I might just stop responding to you entirely and let someone else do it.

Aren't you doing the same with the context of the arguments?

So please reread my arguments to understand them and stop putting words in my mouth.

I reread it multiple times

 

[Amalyris]

You bring up a "contradiction" even when i state yuuki was implying possibilities and i noted that it was the only statement that could be any actual statement, stating something is a universe. HOWEVER, its questioned and not confirmed, so where's the confirmation?

Also, bring forth the line that implies worlds > universes, so we can discuss that point in depth.

Ye this just proves you really to much on OTL,

I mean FTL is much more trustworthy via the fact even translators in this wiki agreed with FTL version more than the OTL

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Brother! he is saying that size is the sole requirements for scaling.

Never said size is the sole requirement, but when the whole point of proving something is a universe, is to prove the size of the realm which would allow it to qualify for 3-A to Low 2-C.

So it's all about qualifying the size which is what @PrimeHydra64 was trying to do in this comment but I've been disputing the sizes of them in these two comments

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179394
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179000

 

[TheHyperGuy]

You know I kinda get this feeling, previous 2C scaling was downgraded because they questioned the size of worlds which was meh in the first place, and this thread again still uses that same logic " are the universes actually the size of a universe"
OP should just read this statement and tell me how it sounds

I even, for argument sake, agree they are called universes, but again, if they all vary in size, and are called universes, then size isn't a factor when being called a universe in Tensura, so we have to prove the sizes equal an actual universe.

 

[3Pencil]

You dont need the whole scan, that one line implies a universe still exists for ciel to traverse.

He was also sent to the "end" of time and space, not beyond it. Time and space was still present, and theres multiple reasons to believe that.

For example, he is able to use space/time leap which requires spatial and temporal coordinates to activate. Not only that, but it was never even implies space and time weren't present, just that they halted all movement.

In this "end of time and space", no time is flowing, so even Chloe probably
can't go back to the past

This was a literal end of spacetime

So again, the universe wasnt "destroyed" in a literal sense, but nothing was present, or seemed to be present at the end of the universe.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The universe wasn't there what remained was subspace not the universe

Yes because Ciel stating that she wandered the universe means the universe wasn't there;

<- After that, I wandered around in a universe where not even a star
twinkled, and watched the end of the world.>

Worlds, planet and universe has always being used differently

Do I have to make an entire page dedicated to all the times world was referencing the Planet, Cause I will take the thousands of times the term world is used if that is the case.

<<Yes, I have. In Feldway's "Chrono-Saltation", we are transported to
the far reaches of space-time. There, the life of the stars had long
expired, but the world had not yet collapsed. I assume that
Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Cardinal World
universe.

See right here, this is the CW being referred to as a universe

What do you mean? It stated the Cardinal WORLD universe, aka the universe of the cardinal world. It's not calling the cardinal world a universe. And I already in another reply gave multiple reasoning and evidence why it would mean the earth/the planet which hasn't been refuted yet.

Again that wasn't the universe, that was subspace, at this point I am very sure OP doesn't read tensura but just wanted a downgrade for the verse

So is subspace now the universe? Cause If you want to make that assertion, I'm 100% okay with that.

It also said the world was not destroyed, which is in reference to the universe.

This is universe and world being used differently, from context alone we can confirm worlds generally are bigger than universe since ciel wandered around in a universe and watched the end of the world this wasn't talking about CW since feldway already destroyed it.

What? She wandered around the universe, because the world, aka the universe, wasn't destroyed.

The universe was still there in order for Ciel to wander around in it, meaning it's not destroyed, the feldway claim was an assumption,

I ASSUME that Feldway's power was limited to destroying the Cardinal World universe.

And this doesn't necessitate that destruction here means get rid of, simply could mean to ruin, like what Cornu was doing which was proven in this CRT.

Just stating the words are different isn't enough to say that world =/= universe in this context. If the universe is still around, then it isn't "destroyed" meaning, the world isn't destroyed is referring to the universe.

IDK how you are able to read and jump context or use your own " theory" we can conclude again that worlds are larger than universes which in this case would apply to all worlds basically any context with world in it since it doesn't refer to a planet nor the universe

IDK how you are able to read this and come to the weird conclusion that dimension > worlds > universes.

We know it's the universe since Universes expand, just like this translation claims;

Even in the same world's universe, space continued to expand at a speed faster than light.

Meaning it's universes that expand, Ciel stated space has stopping expanding;

<<Yes. In this place, the flow of time has stopped. The expanse of space has come to an end, and according to the law of entropy, we have reached the point of emptiness.

Meaning they were still in said "universe", Idk how much supporting evidence I need to provide to show that the universe was still there.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Universe was ended because of Law of entropy not because it was destroyed. The timeline was still not destroyed.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Said who? The OTL? Are you really saying that OTL is much more trustworthy than MTL and FTL(based from those who actually are Japanese?)

No, says the kanji 星hoshi, Which is star. And no, not the OTL since vol 21 hasn't even come out yet. Also, planets don't have "lifespans" stars do though, they expire.

Aren't you doing the same with the context of the arguments?

You have brought up things I never said, Unless you have clear evidence I'm doing that, then sure whatever, but I have not red herring your arguments.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

In this "end of time and space", no time is flowing, so even Chloe probably
can't go back to the past

This was a literal end of spacetime

The end doesn't mean its not there anymore. Take a youtube video for example, If I got to 24:00/24:00, the video is still there, but there is no more video so it's the end of the video. The same logic applies, space and time has stopped moving because Rimuru reached the end of all of that.

So it's not gone, never is even implied to be gone.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Ye this just proves you really to much on OTL,

I mean FTL is much more trustworthy via the fact even translators in this wiki agreed with FTL version more than the OTL

I stopped using the OTL halfway through this thread, this is a prime example of you misconstruing my arguments.

 

[3Pencil]

I even, for argument sake, agree they are called universes, but again, if they all vary in size, and are called universes, then size isn't a factor when being called a universe in Tensura, so we have to prove the sizes equal an actual universe.

This will be my last comment

You agreed they are called universes? Then fine, then you want to know the size of the universe? How does that work and since when has the wiki ever questioned the size of a universe when it was stated to be a literal universe?

And we literally got statement of time ending on a multiversal scale based on vol21 events and we got statement of many timelines based on vol17 events from velgrynd who experienced the Cosmo firsthand, we got feldway who destroyed the CW universe in a literal sense, zelario who destroyed many dimensions which contains worlds and timelines. The whole point of arguing if "are worlds actually universal sizes" or " are universe actually universal sized" doesn't make sense when we got statement or feats of world being bigger than universes and feldway destroyed the CW universe and not the world.

We have statements of planets being used differently in vol17 and vol19 or 20 iirc, subspace as the end of all things and at the same time containing everything in the cosmo, timelines in every dimensions/worlds.

Okay y'all do you, if this thread gets accepted then it's clear it's biased and anyways 2C for top tiers still stands whether this wiki likes it or not same with the 2A cosmo

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Do you understand what Far reaches of time and space? Or do you have the scan saying that he was sent to the end of time and space first before being sent to beyond time and space?


Cuz I had read the same ftl and worlds from a JP friend that RIMURU got sent beyond the time and space(or beyond/outside the universe) before they drifted and reached the end of time and space(the world)

Wrong again.

The stronger the flow of time, the stronger the repulsion of space to be
fixed. The stronger the force of the repulsion, the more the object is buried
"beyond time and space".
And this is where I ended up, here, at the end of time and space.
A place where the end of time and space meet in the distant future.

Legit stated that he was sent to the "end of time and space... in the distant future."

Future of what? the same timeline right? So he is in the same universe, just at the end of it all. the "beyond" stuff isn't consistent nor does it mean outside of the space/time.

Do you understand what the word END OF TIME AND SPACE is? It means the time and space of that Universe or the World itself no longer has time, just like how a world no longer exist when it ends

YOU CANNOT USE SPACE/TIME LEAP IF THERE ARE NO CURRENT SPACE/TIME COORDINATES. Also, my prior quote of the novel stated he was sent to the distant future, where time still is. And my previous reply talking about the end of time and space analogy should suffice as a reply to this one too.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

This will be my last comment

You agreed they are called universes? Then fine, then you want to know the size of the universe? How does that work and since when has the wiki ever questioned the size of a universe when it was stated to be a literal universe?

Dude two days before instant death verse got nuked from 1-B to 3-A despite having universe statement because of size not being infinite. Don't act like Tensura is the only verse getting this treatment in wiki.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

You agreed they are called universes? Then fine, then you want to know the size of the universe? How does that work and since when has the wiki ever questioned the size of a universe when it was stated to be a literal universe?

When these "universes" are called universes but vary drastically in size. So like i've stated in 9 different replies now,
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179394
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tensu...nsura-cosmology-downgrade.181366/post-7179000
and went into detail in these two.

So again, I'm putting into question the sizes of these "universes" because the series itself doesn't classify them because of their size, since if we take all these worlds as universes, and some are larger than other by a considerable margin, then that calls to question how big those are.

So if we are not going to attack the point I'm making about this, there is nothing left to discuss.

And we literally got statement of time ending on a multiversal scale based on vol21 events and we got statement of many timelines based on vol17 events from velgrynd who experienced the Cosmo firsthand, we got feldway who destroyed the CW universe in a literal sense, zelario who destroyed many dimensions which contains worlds and timelines. The whole point of arguing if "are worlds actually universal sizes" or " are universe actually universal sized" doesn't make sense when we got statement or feats of world being bigger than universes and feldway destroyed the CW universe and not the world.

Nothing you have stated here is confirmed.

Time ending on a multiverse scale? When

Many timelines? Cool, not disputed, agree. Doesn't mean multiverse still.

Feldway destroying the universe? then why is it still present? Ciel wandered around in it, y'all ignore that.

Zalario destroyed many dimensions? The whole point of that CRT was to question if they are destroyed or just conquered, and since no one could prove the opposition, stop trying to force something no one can prove.

World being bigger than universes? Never stated.

And again, Feldway didn't destroy the universe since it was still there for Ciel to wander around.

At this point, it's just sad. I apologize for getting off the handle, but the whole contention is what the size of these spaces are, even if they are called universes. If you don't have an argument to prove they are universal in size, when that is being put into question with proof from the series stating the variety of sizes of these so-called "universes" then just stop complaining.

A universe is bigger than another universe, is the smaller universe the size of a universe or is the larger universe the size of a universe.

If size isn't a factor to calling them universes in the series, then we have to figure out if they are universal in size for this wiki to classify them as Low 2-C.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The Tensura Situation is crazy

 

[SweetDao]

Dude two days before instant death verse got nuked from 1-B to 3-A despite having universe statement because of size not being infinite. Don't act like Tensura is the only verse getting this treatment in wiki.

"Universe" in ID is moreso a name for "the place where people lives" tbf. So yeah, taking the word "universe" for granted, while tempting, isn't always truthful with what we scale as "universe" here.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Btw Yuuki seeing the Sphere burst stuff. Seems like it was Vaccine Decay concept

Vacuum decay: the ultimate catastrophe

A favourite theory in physics has always been vacuum decay. It’s a quick, clean and efficient way of wiping out the Universe.

cosmosmagazine.com

While What Rimuru experienced was Heat Death of Universe.

Author really spamming all science related stuff it seems.

Anyway Vaccum decay seems to happen when Universe has low energy and expanding at SOL. Don't know if it helps just wanted to point out why Yuuki might have thought the bubble as a Universe.

 

[Huesito88]

Btw Yuuki seeing the Sphere burts stuff. Seems like it was Vaccine Decay concept

Vacuum decay: the ultimate catastrophe

A favourite theory in physics has always been vacuum decay. It’s a quick, clean and efficient way of wiping out the Universe.

cosmosmagazine.com

While What Rimuru experienced was Heat Death of Universe.

Author really spamming all science related stuff it seems.

Anyway Vaccum decay seems to happen when Universe has low energy and expanding at SOL. Don't know if it helps just wanted to point out why Yuuki might have thought the bubble as a Universe.

That could give some good Hax if true, never thought I'd see the big slurp in fictional media

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Author really spamming all science related stuff it seems.

That definitely sounds like Fuse, from how they go into things you'd think they seem like a big fan of science fiction

That could give some good Hax if true, never thought I'd see the big slurp in fictional media

one of the best things to come out of this