A Very Abstract Dragon ball revision

[Theglassman12]

@Killerdrone123 And more translators I've talked to said it doesn't actually mean concept. It can mean just evil thoughts as it requires far more assumptions than the more concrete set of Kanji that actually means concept. Plus Executor never said it's enough for concept, he said that's the thing that still needs to be discussed in general.

@TiltedFN Or you know, Gogeta was under a time limit in the fusion and had to lock in asap since they messed the fusion up badly last time and needed Janemba dead before anymore damage could be done. Given the amount of time Pikkon spent on the insults it wouldn't be as practical but saying it's not a thing that could be fatal to Janemba is a stretch to make given how it's an established weakness to him that deals noteworthy damage to him even if you're far weaker than him.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

@Killerdrone123 And more translators I've talked to said it doesn't actually mean concept. It can mean just evil thoughts as it requires far more assumptions than the more concrete set of Kanji that actually means concept. Plus Executor never said it's enough for concept, he said that's the thing that still needs to be discussed in general.

I don't think he's arguing that specific kanji means concept. Rather, I think he's arguing that what Evil Energy constitutes in the Dragon Ball universe would fit the wiki definition of a concept (abstract essence that shapes and governs an aspect of reality, in this case, Evil in DB, including abstractions like evil ideas and thoughts). That's how I understood it, at least.

 

[TiltedFN]

@TiltedFN Or you know, Gogeta was under a time limit in the fusion and had to lock in asap since they messed the fusion up badly last time and needed Janemba dead before anymore damage could be done. Given the amount of time Pikkon spent on the insults it wouldn't be as practical but saying it's not a thing that could be fatal to Janemba is a stretch to make given how it's an established weakness to him that deals noteworthy damage to him even if you're far weaker than him.

I mean gogeta had like plenty of time to throw insults at him all he wanted. But that's besides the point. Saying insults could kill him when a special move was needed to permanently get rid of him and turn the world back to normal says to me that insults alone weren't enough. Especially when we get a description on the actual move and what it did. This isn't a stretch at all, it seems to me like its just common sense. The insults as we've seen is only something that could rattle janemba, not get rid of him for good. Also Pikkon was throwing insults at it nonstop the entire fight, sure we don't see it regenerate, but he leaves before we see any of the lasting damage, if there was any at all during the fighting when Pikkon left. A weakness doesn't inherently mean automatic death, or that it can cause death at all. It can be used to gain an advantage, but this doesn't have to mean its something fatal. It's a vulnerability that is unique to him, and we've seen what it actually does. You heavily lack the proof to claim this with any sort of concrete evidence. And we've seen Janemba regenerate from it.

 

[supertomioka]

This thread is becoming longer than it needs to be, I am pretty sure there isn't any thing left to say and we should start drawing conclusions and agreements
My opinion on the OP remains neutral.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo It's not just the evil stuff from Janemba that's using this point, Infinite Zamasu's section is also using a similar argument when one of the scans mentions his own thoughts merged with the universe while using that same Kanji.

@TiltedFN We literally do see the damage he made on the barrier. Like two instances where he made a noteworthy indent to the point it made a small makeshift cave for him to go inside. The fact it doesn't regenerate at implies it is able to deal noteworthy damage to it, compared to the other attacks Goku and Pikkon threw at it and it just absorbed their energy blasts like it's nothing. But again, where is it stated the purification of Stardust Breaker was the only thing capable of killing Janemba? Because I've looked up Dragon Ball Heroes stuff in regards to Janemba and he dies from Xeno Goku and Vegeta doing Dragon Fist. They don't even purify him and he still died from a Dragon Fist and exploding, so I'm having a hard time believing that's the only way to kill Janemba when Heroes shows there's another way you can kill him.

 

[Killerdrone123]

@Ottavio_Merluzzo It's not just the evil stuff from Janemba that's using this point, Infinite Zamasu's section is also using a similar argument when one of the scans mentions his own thoughts merged with the universe while using that same Kanji.

Erm No We never claimed that the kanji means concept aside from that one mistake in the zamasu scan which vieth fixed later.

Our main argument is that evil energy fits the definition of what is a concept given evil energy is very evil ideas/thoughts making it an abstract energy which is responsible for evil beings in db i.e it governs the notion of evil in physical reality

The whole seleas point is to prove the above since seleas was going to eradicate evil and reform world without it (Yes he wanted to recreate a world where evil doesn't exist not just simply destroy it)meaning if you destroy this very evil/evil energy no more evil people would be born meaning the very fundamental aspect of evil would cease to exist in reality.

Again stop using the kanji argument we never claimed that the kanji means conceptual,we are arguing this abstract energies fits the definition of what a concept should be.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I believe Executor confirmed the translation. He commented back on it a couple pages ago.

Yes, but the first translation lines up more closely with what he says.

But the actual translated text is basically the same; it says that Minus Energy is created out of the distortion of the laws of nature, while Plus Energy represents Nature's intended form, the power of justice.

I mean it depends on the verse, if anger or hope is like some abstraction that’s fundamental to reality, and it governs it. Then, it could potentially be a concept, but it’d depend on the context of all of these things considered.

Yes, but in this case, evil thoughts and intentions aren't part of some grander abstraction, fundamental to reality. They can affect reality, which makes it more of a emotions have power situation, rather than the concept of those emotions grant beings power.

Yeah, no problem.

I see all of this as Zamasu, who has a very twisted sense of Order & Justice, becoming an entity of pure will, based on his own ideas, of Order and Justice. Then trying to merge with the universe, and therefore becoming Order & Justice for everyone who lives within it, rather than overwriting some preexisting concepts.

He would still be AE Type 1, but not because of a universal Type 2 Concept, but based on his own ideals.

 

[Vietthai96]

Yes, but in this case, evil thoughts and intentions aren't part of some grander abstraction, fundamental to reality. They can affect reality, which makes it more of a emotions have power situation, rather than the concept of those emotions grant beings power.

As Sealas already stated, Evil is always exit, and in order to erase this "Evil" he need to destroy all of existence and rebuild a new one. And no, in the scan, he didn't mention evil beings or anything similar, he literally said Evil itself

Beside, as others had said it already, if Sealas only want to destroy all evil beings, he already has power to do so, he literally has destructive power to destroy the entire multiverse, warp reality and create new world, if he just want to end all evil beings simply, he could just blow up all thing, then make new world without a single evil beings. or if he doesn't want to destroy reality, his powers allow him to delete every single evil beings with his stats alone. But he keep slamming the fact that in order to actually eradicate Evil itself, (not simply evil beings) he need to destroy everything, rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence, despite all the power he has. This mean:

1. Even when he could destroy the current reality and make a new one, evil beings keep appearing
2. He directly stated in order to eradicate Evil itself, everything need to be destroyed, he will rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence

combine two points, we could see that Evil itself is literal fundamental abstract aspect of reality that responsible for evil beings, and Sealas need to eradicate it to actually stop evil beings coming out. Which literally fall under qualification for concepts,

shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts

Quote from CM page, now come to our case, the suppose concept is Evil, "evil" participating in this Evil concepts and this Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence

Thus Evil is qualify for Concept

Evil Thoughts, Ideas is support arguments for this Evil being abstract, not some concrete thing or some living being. Janemba is stated to be incarnation or manifestation of Evil Ideas is another supporting evidence for "Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence". Evil Ideas energy can warp physical reality and distort laws that governing over reality also another supporting evidence to support that this Evil can affect physical reality and metaphysical aspects that governs over said reality (law is considered metaphysical aspect)

I see all of this as Zamasu, who has a very twisted sense of Order & Justice, becoming an entity of pure will, based on his own ideas, of Order and Justice. Then trying to merge with the universe, and therefore becoming Order & Justice for everyone who lives within it, rather than overwriting some preexisting concepts.

he didn't overwriting suppose concepts, but rather merge with them, become so concept directly, that why almost every pieces of media stated he becoming justice and order itself, and again is stated that he can control the universe, that mean these suppose justice and order can actually influence and govern, control physical reality. And IZ, being justice and order itself, directly, or we could say he merge with those concepts, becoming sentient abstract concepts

And before anyone again asking what he can do, that is literally just asking on plot holes thing

Alright, back to rest, my work load get heavier these days

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Yes, but the first translation lines up more closely with what he says.

That text literally comes from the second translation. The mention of a form of how the world should be comes from the second.

Yes, but in this case, evil thoughts and intentions aren't part of some grander abstraction, fundamental to reality. They can affect reality, which makes it more of a emotions have power situation, rather than the concept of those emotions grant beings power.

To this I’d just quote what Vietthai said in his new comment

As Sealas already stated, Evil is always exit, and in order to erase this "Evil" he need to destroy all of existence and rebuild a new one. And no, in the scan, he didn't mention evil beings or anything similar, he literally said Evil itself

Beside, as others had said it already, if Sealas only want to destroy all evil beings, he already has power to do so, he literally has destructive power to destroy the entire multiverse, warp reality and create new world, if he just want to end all evil beings simply, he could just blow up all thing, then make new world without a single evil beings. or if he doesn't want to destroy reality, his powers allow him to delete every single evil beings with his stats alone. But he keep slamming the fact that in order to actually eradicate Evil itself, (not simply evil beings) he need to destroy everything, rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence, despite all the power he has. This mean:

1. Even when he could destroy the current reality and make a new one, evil beings keep appearing
2. He directly stated in order to eradicate Evil itself, everything need to be destroyed, he will rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence

combine two points, we could see that Evil itself is literal fundamental abstract aspect of reality that responsible for evil beings, and Sealas need to eradicate it to actually stop evil beings coming out. Which literally fall under qualification for concepts,

Quote from CM page, now come to our case, the suppose concept is Evil, "evil" participating in this Evil concepts and this Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence

Thus Evil is qualify for Concept

Evil Thoughts, Ideas is support arguments for this Evil being abstract, not some concrete thing or some living being. Janemba is stated to be incarnation or manifestation of Evil Ideas is another supporting evidence for "Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence". Evil Ideas energy can warp physical reality and distort laws that governing over reality also another supporting evidence to support that this Evil can affect physical reality and metaphysical aspects that governs over said reality (law is considered metaphysical aspect)



he didn't overwriting suppose concepts, but rather merge with them, become so concept directly, that why almost every pieces of media stated he becoming justice and order itself, and again is stated that he can control the universe, that mean these suppose justice and order can actually influence and govern, control physical reality. And IZ, being justice and order itself, directly, or we could say he merge with those concepts, becoming sentient abstract concepts

And before anyone again asking what he can do, that is literally just asking on plot holes thing

Alright, back to rest, my work load get heavier these days

I see all of this as Zamasu, who has a very twisted sense of Order & Justice, becoming an entity of pure will, based on his own ideas, of Order and Justice. Then trying to merge with the universe, and therefore becoming Order & Justice for everyone who lives within it, rather than overwriting some preexisting concepts.

He would still be AE Type 1, but not because of a universal Type 2 Concept, but based on his own ideals.

Yeah, but you’re still moving away from the fact that the order and justice is fundamental to the universe. It’s why when Zamasu merged with it and became justice and order, by discarding his body, it’s stated that the justice and order was distorting the universe. The justice and order here which is abstract is literally shaping reality.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

As Sealas already stated, Evil is always exit, and in order to erase this "Evil" he need to destroy all of existence and rebuild a new one. And no, in the scan, he didn't mention evil beings or anything similar, he literally said Evil itself

Beside, as others had said it already, if Sealas only want to destroy all evil beings, he already has power to do so, he literally has destructive power to destroy the entire multiverse, warp reality and create new world, if he just want to end all evil beings simply, he could just blow up all thing, then make new world without a single evil beings. or if he doesn't want to destroy reality, his powers allow him to delete every single evil beings with his stats alone. But he keep slamming the fact that in order to actually eradicate Evil itself, (not simply evil beings) he need to destroy everything, rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence, despite all the power he has. This mean:

1. Even when he could destroy the current reality and make a new one, evil beings keep appearing
2. He directly stated in order to eradicate Evil itself, everything need to be destroyed, he will rebuild reality from the ground up and reforge existence

combine two points, we could see that Evil itself is literal fundamental abstract aspect of reality that responsible for evil beings, and Sealas need to eradicate it to actually stop evil beings coming out. Which literally fall under qualification for concepts,

Quote from CM page, now come to our case, the suppose concept is Evil, "evil" participating in this Evil concepts and this Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence

Thus Evil is qualify for Concept

Evil Thoughts, Ideas is support arguments for this Evil being abstract, not some concrete thing or some living being. Janemba is stated to be incarnation or manifestation of Evil Ideas is another supporting evidence for "Evil concept shape all evil beings as they are under evil concept's area of influence". Evil Ideas energy can warp physical reality and distort laws that governing over reality also another supporting evidence to support that this Evil can affect physical reality and metaphysical aspects that governs over said reality (law is considered metaphysical aspect)

I can see how Evil itself could be considered a Concept, but I still don’t agree that things derived from it, like evil thoughts or ideas, should be considered concepts as well, even if they can warp laws or reality. Just because these things are born from Evil and can have powerful effects doesn’t automatically make them concepts in their own right.

I can agree with Evil as a Type 2 Concept, but not the things derived from it.

he didn't overwriting suppose concepts, but rather merge with them, become so concept directly, that why almost every pieces of media stated he becoming justice and order itself, and again is stated that he can control the universe, that mean these suppose justice and order can actually influence and govern, control physical reality. And IZ, being justice and order itself, directly, or we could say he merge with those concepts, becoming sentient abstract concepts

It all comes down to interpretation.

It seems like everyone is overlooking that point. The story made it clear: Zamasu became his own ideals. I’m not denying that his goal was to merge with the universe, but to me, it’s obvious Zamasu literally became his personal vision of Justice and Order, trying to merge with the universe to become Justice and Order itself. He saw an empty role and wanted to fill it. When people say a villain is the embodiment of Evil, it’s the same concept. Zamasu became Justice and Order because he transformed into his own ideals and tried to spread them throughout the universe.

Anyway, this isn't really something that can be debated, since it's up to interpretation, unless any new evidence comes to light, this is my stance.

That text literally comes from the second translation. The mention of a form of how the world should be comes from the second.

That's fine, but it's stated that it would be a Law/Law Manipulation. It's already been clarified that Negative Energy comes from the distortion of Nature's Laws; it makes sense that its opposite is Nature's Laws directly.

Again, this is another matter of interpretation, but this is my stance, and as said above, I'm not likely going to change it unless theirs new evidence.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It seems like everyone is overlooking that point. The story made it clear: Zamasu became his own ideals. I’m not denying that his goal was to merge with the universe, but to me, it’s obvious Zamasu literally became his personal vision of Justice and Order, trying to merge with the universe to become Justice and Order itself. He saw an empty role and wanted to fill it. When people say a villain is the embodiment of Evil, it’s the same concept. Zamasu became Justice and Order because he transformed into his own ideals and tried to spread them throughout the universe.

I mean it depends on the context of those, if you’re mentioning Janemba here, then he’s literally a being manifested from evil.
Zamasu became Justice and order, in which Fu commented on how he didn’t care about those things, and wanted to experiment on things that are tangible. When Zamasu becomes the embodiment of that he literally becomes a no physical being, and the Justice and Order distorts the universe. I see your point of view, but how would you take into account that Justice and order are the things distorting the universe.

Again, this is another matter of interpretation, but this is my stance, and as said above, I'm not likely going to change it unless theirs new evidence.

If you think that part is a matter of intepretation on those two, would you atleast think a possibly/likely is possible?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I see your point of view, but how would you take into account that Justice and order are the things distorting the universe.

Because he's merging with the universe. I never denied that part; he's definitely going to distort the universe if he's merging his literal ideas with it.

Not sure if an abstract idea, merging with the universe, counts as it becoming a Type 2 Concept, never seen that before.

If you think that part is a matter of intepretation on those two, would you atleast think a possibly/likely is possible?

Hmm, since the 2nd translation mentions the form of how something should be, I suppose I could settle for that.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I can see how Evil itself could be considered a Concept, but I still don’t agree that things derived from it, like evil thoughts or ideas, should be considered concepts as well, even if they can warp laws or reality. Just because these things are born from Evil and can have powerful effects doesn’t automatically make them concepts in their own right.

I can agree with Evil as a Type 2 Concept, but not the things derived from it.

Wouldn't it qualify for type 1 given how evil would still exist even when reality is destroyed proving that it is independent from the reality it governs qualifying it for type 1.

That's why seleas who is capable of destroying reality and reforming new world stated that he needs to destroy time scroll itself otherwise it won't work the independency section of blog explains this with scans

 

[Robo432343]

Wouldn't it qualify for type 1 given how evil would still exist even when reality is destroyed proving that it is independent from the reality it governs qualifying it for type 1.

But the scan says

Evil itself must be eradicated. The universe must be reformed to exclude all evil!

how do you know reformed in this context = destroyed? if you can prove that then it should be fine for type 1 i think

 

[Killerdrone123]

But the scan says

how do you know reformed in this context = destroyed? if you can prove that then it should be fine for type 1 i think

He literally says reforge existence from ground up pace and follows up with how he wants to destroy the history and then start building it meaning he would destroy all of existence

Also seleas has the DC to destroy all of existence and rebuild it yet he thinks he needs to destroy the time scroll in order for it to work and simply destroying the world won't help

 

[Vietthai96]

But the scan says

how do you know reformed in this context = destroyed? if you can prove that then it should be fine for type 1 i think

If evil is dependent concepts, then destroy all of reality is enough, cause dependent concepts can by destroyed by chain reaction cause by the destruction of the objects those concepts tied too, and Sealas just need to make a new world. But even dude have power to destroy and ability to make new world, thing wont change, that mean Evil is independent from physical reality, cause no matter what he did, Evil still there

 

[Robo432343]

He literally says reforge existence from ground up pace and follows up with how he wants to destroy the history and then start building it meaning he would destroy all of existence

wait wait what
the idea that evil will still exist even when reality is destroyed is contradicted by your own scan
the guy in your scan said to eradicate evil, reality itself must be destroyed and rebuilt from scratch. That literally implies that evil is tied to reality. If evil was actually independent of reality, destroying everything wouldn't remove it. Instead, the dude in the scan thinks that by resetting existence, the conditions that allow evil to exist would be eliminated. Your own scan debunks itself

unless the guy in the scan is wrong

 

[Killerdrone123]

wait wait what
the idea that evil will still exist even when reality is destroyed is contradicted by your own scan
the guy in your scan said to eradicate evil, reality itself must be destroyed and rebuilt from scratch. That literally implies that evil is tied to reality. If evil was actually independent of reality, destroying everything wouldn't remove it. Instead, the dude in the scan thinks that by resetting existence, the conditions that allow evil to exist would be eliminated. Your own scan debunks itself

Read what vieth said he was going to destroy the time scroll ofc all of reality was gonna get destroyed from ground one,time scrolls they are even capable of recording erased timelines

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

If evil is dependent concepts, then destroying all of reality is enough, cause dependent concepts can be destroyed by chain reactions caused by the destruction of the objects those concepts are tied too, and Sealas just needs to make a new world. But even though he has power to destroy and ability to a make new world, things wont change, that means Evil is independent from physical reality, cause no matter what he does, Evil is still there

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Maverick_Zero_X your input here would be appreciated

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still hearing conflicted arguments on how Conceptual Manipulation Type 2, so I feel as if more staff input is how things are settled.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I can agree with Evil

If evil is dependent concepts, then destroy all of reality is enough, cause dependent concepts can by destroyed by chain reaction cause by the destruction of the objects those concepts tied too, and Sealas just need to make a new world. But even dude have power to destroy and ability to make new world, thing wont change, that mean Evil is independent from physical reality, cause no matter what he did, Evil still there

Any thoughts on what Vietthai said?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If evil is dependent concepts, then destroy all of reality is enough, cause dependent concepts can by destroyed by chain reaction cause by the destruction of the objects those concepts tied too, and Sealas just need to make a new world. But even dude have power to destroy and ability to make new world, thing wont change, that mean Evil is independent from physical reality, cause no matter what he did, Evil still there

I could see this, but I am still not exactly a concept manipulation/Abstract Existence expert.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Bump

 

[TheNothing84]

Bump

 

[Killerdrone123]

Bump

 

[Killerdrone123]

Bump

 

[RenderGK]

bump

 

[RedReaper616]

A Bump can only be issued once every 24 hours. You can't repeatedly Bump it within the same day. I say this to notify you (for future reference) so you don't get hit by Staff for doing so.

 

[Dereck03]

Any thoughts on what Vietthai said?

I think what viet stated seems plausible.

 

[Vietthai96]

I think what viet stated seems plausible.

Thanks you. What do yoy think about the blog?

 

[Dereck03]

Thanks you. What do yoy think about the blog?

Agree with game section except IZ.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well I think game section has sufficient agrees except IZ as many disagreed with it

As the vote tally stands



Agree: Oblivion_Of_The_Endless,DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees with games),Dereck03(Agrees with game section),ActuallySpaceMan42(agrees with type 2 evil, likely/possibly for positive and negative energy)

Neutral;

Disagree; Theglassman12,ActuallySpaceMan42(Disagrees with IZ),Dereck03(Disagrees with IZ),DarkDragonMedeus(For toei)

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well since no one has objected and grace has already finished and majority agrees with CM for games section except iz,This has been accepted

Toei has insufficient votes and thread has been opened for too long so we are thinking of abandoning toei type 2 CM and only getting type 1 games accepted

So with that said this thread can be closed Thank you to everyone for joining in.

 

[Reiner04]

I was asked for input but got bit late. Regarding the proposal, i share same view as Dereck.