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Popular/Controversial Verses and the Determination Thereof

I'm fine with striking Re:Zero, Shinza is controversial enough to warrant the tag.

FinePoint said:
Removed, since I concur and Bambu was sus of them too.

This leaves the following in contention:
  • Hellaverse
  • The Boys
Personally, I think the Hellaverse probably qualifies but not The Boys.
I've done a few revisions for both.
Click to expand...
...and I'd be fine with this conclusion for these two.

So, my understanding is that the list looks like this:
  • One-Punch Man
  • Bleach
  • Dragon Ball
  • Naruto
  • My Hero Academia
  • Jujutsu Kaisen
  • One Piece
  • Sonic
  • God of War
  • MCU/Marvel
  • That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
  • The Misfit of Demon King Academy
  • Four Knights of the Apocalypse
  • Nasuverse
  • Fairy Tail
  • Chainsaw Man
  • DC Comics
  • Ben 10
  • Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
  • Shinza Banshou
  • Devil May Cry
  • Mario
  • Star Wars
  • Minecraft
  • Demon Slayer
  • Megami Tensei
  • Tokyo Revengers
  • Hellaverse
  • World of Darkness
  • Genshin Impact
  • Instant Death
  • Gravity Falls
  • Undertale
  • Pokemon
  • Deltarune
Those two in bold are the two where staff members have split opinions, in that Ant has mentioned a specific belief that Gravity Falls doesn't need it, and I have mentioned an explicit belief that it should have it. FinePoint doesn't technically have a vote here but I'd rather smooth over that crease given the opportunity anyways- he agrees with Ant on Gravity Falls, and also believes Undertale should be fine (but believes Deltarune should have it), whereas my belief is the opposite- Undertale should have it due to controversy and Deltarune shouldn't due to not reaching that point yet. Ant has also mentioned the belief that Shinza might not need it, but not because it does not meet criteria, instead that it may suffer disproportionately.

So, @Antvasima @FinePoint at this point the question is largely "Can a single character be controversial enough to facilitate restrictions on a verse?" In these two cases, most changes and discussions regarding the verse tend to at least involve these characters (this is more true for Gravity Falls than Undertale, but in Undertale's case, the secondary characters are also more known/used/discussed/controversial, so make of that what you will). My opinion is that yes, if a verse so heavily weighs in the gravity of that character, then we should treat it appropriately. If both of you still disagree with that point, then I'll remove my support for them receiving the tag.

In the case of Shinza... Dies Irae has always been a controversial verse. Perhaps less so now that we've stomped on it so much, but it has a legacy and is still, abroad, a widely discussed powerscaling-centric verse. I'd prefer us to treat it with a great deal of caution. So I want to ask, @Antvasima, whether you think it has no basis for receiving this tag, or if the concern is solely steeped in a worry for the verse and how bogged down CRTs may become. If it's the latter, then I would still vote in favor of giving it the tag. If it's the former, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.
 
I was mostly concerned about that Shinza might be too unpopular to ever get any revisions passed, but given its past controversy over extremely high statistics, I think that your arguments above make sense. 🙏
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I'm fine with striking Re:Zero, Shinza is controversial enough to warrant the tag.
Click to expand...
I have no objections to removing Re:Zero and keeping Shinza.
Mr. Bambu said:
FinePoint doesn't technically have a vote here
Click to expand...
Only one way to fix that.
Mr. Bambu said:
At this point the question is largely "Can a single character be controversial enough to facilitate restrictions on a verse?" In these two cases, most changes and discussions regarding the verse tend to at least involve these characters (this is more true for Gravity Falls than Undertale, but in Undertale's case, the secondary characters are also more known/used/discussed/controversial, so make of that what you will). My opinion is that yes, if a verse so heavily weighs in the gravity of that character, then we should treat it appropriately. If both of you still disagree with that point, then I'll remove my support for them receiving the tag.
Click to expand...
I suppose if a single character dominates the discussion and consequently leads most discussion about the verse towards controversy then yes.

One-Punch Man
Bleach
Dragon Ball
Naruto
My Hero Academia
Jujutsu Kaisen
One Piece
Sonic
God of War
MCU/Marvel
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
The Misfit of Demon King Academy
Four Knights of the Apocalypse
Nasuverse
Fairy Tail
Chainsaw Man
DC
Ben 10
Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
Devil May Cry
Mario
Minecraft
Demon Slayer
Megami Tensei
Tokyo Revengers
Hellaverse

Gravity Falls
Saint Seiya
Pokemon
WoD
Undertale/Deltarune
Genshin Impact
Honkai: Star Rail
Fujitakaverse (including Instant Death)
 
Mr. Bambu said:
In the case of Shinza... Dies Irae has always been a controversial verse. Perhaps less so now that we've stomped on it so much, but it has a legacy and is still, abroad, a widely discussed powerscaling-centric verse. I'd prefer us to treat it with a great deal of caution. So I want to ask, @Antvasima, whether you think it has no basis for receiving this tag, or if the concern is solely steeped in a worry for the verse and how bogged down CRTs may become. If it's the latter, then I would still vote in favor of giving it the tag. If it's the former, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.
Click to expand...
I think you're absolutely right on being cautious of Dies Irae, because while the verse is changed now on the site, the attitude towards it in the Powerscaling community at large hasn't.

And there are still cases of people forging or intentionally mistranslating Non-English verses to inflate their statistics, and it's a serious issue we can't overlook when it comes to unofficially translated verses.

Considering that Dies Irae is at the epicentre of this issue and that fake scans and false scaling is rife throughout the community, I definitely think extra scrutiny should be taken with it.

Mr. Bambu said:
World of Darkness
Click to expand...
Not sure why it'd be on there, since the controversies were all just from me over half a decade go in 2018/2019.

I can't see any controversies with the profiles, since (using the updated profiles) I will argue there's few profiles this highly rated that have this level of detail, research and proper sourcing.
 
FinePoint said:
I have no objections to removing Re:Zero and keeping Shinza.

Only one way to fix that.

I suppose if a single character dominates the discussion and consequently leads most discussion about the verse towards controversy then yes.

One-Punch Man
Bleach
Dragon Ball
Naruto
My Hero Academia
Jujutsu Kaisen
One Piece
Sonic
God of War
MCU/Marvel
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
The Misfit of Demon King Academy
Four Knights of the Apocalypse
Nasuverse
Fairy Tail
Chainsaw Man
DC
Ben 10
Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
Devil May Cry
Mario
Minecraft
Demon Slayer
Megami Tensei
Tokyo Revengers
Hellaverse

Gravity Falls
Saint Seiya
Pokemon
WoD
Undertale/Deltarune
Genshin Impact
Honkai: Star Rail
Fujitakaverse (including Instant Death)
Click to expand...
Regarding this.

The "In Contention" list is, I feel, largely sorted? Granted that we don't have tons of staff activity here (we will probably start rallying them at the final proposal, rather than intermittently, to vote), we've given our opinions.

Ant hasn't spoken on Gravity Falls or Undertale, so while you broadly agree, those two are still in limbo.

Gets the template:
  • Pokemon
  • World of Darkness
  • Genshin Impact
  • Instant Death
Doesn't Get the Template:
  • Saint Seiya
  • Deltarune
  • Honkai: Star Rail
Maybe Gets the Template:
  • Undertale
  • Gravity Falls
@Antvasima If you could give an opinion on the following a bit, it would allow us to finalize a proposal of specific verses to get this template:

Those two in bold are the two where staff members have split opinions, in that Ant has mentioned a specific belief that Gravity Falls doesn't need it, and I have mentioned an explicit belief that it should have it. FinePoint doesn't technically have a vote here but I'd rather smooth over that crease given the opportunity anyways- he agrees with Ant on Gravity Falls, and also believes Undertale should be fine (but believes Deltarune should have it), whereas my belief is the opposite- Undertale should have it due to controversy and Deltarune shouldn't due to not reaching that point yet. Ant has also mentioned the belief that Shinza might not need it, but not because it does not meet criteria, instead that it may suffer disproportionately.

So, @Antvasima FinePoint at this point the question is largely "Can a single character be controversial enough to facilitate restrictions on a verse?" In these two cases, most changes and discussions regarding the verse tend to at least involve these characters (this is more true for Gravity Falls than Undertale, but in Undertale's case, the secondary characters are also more known/used/discussed/controversial, so make of that what you will). My opinion is that yes, if a verse so heavily weighs in the gravity of that character, then we should treat it appropriately. If both of you still disagree with that point, then I'll remove my support for them receiving the tag.
Click to expand...
 
Antvasima said:
I am fine with Bambu's conclusions regarding Undertale and Gravity Falls. 🙏
Click to expand...
I'm also fine with it. It's also worth noting that if people feel strongly about a few of them we could always discuss them specifically later with focus.
For now, I think we should probably just let the admins vote on this finalized (but ultimately starting) list:

One-Punch Man
Bleach
Dragon Ball
Naruto
My Hero Academia
Jujutsu Kaisen
One Piece
Sonic
God of War
MCU/Marvel
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
The Misfit of Demon King Academy
Four Knights of the Apocalypse
Nasuverse
Fairy Tail
Chainsaw Man
DC
Ben 10
Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
Devil May Cry
Mario
Demon Slayer
Megami Tensei
Tokyo Revengers
Hellaverse
Gravity Falls
Undertale
Pokemon
World of Darkness
Fujitakaverse (including Instant Death)
Genshin Impact
 
Last edited:
Udlmaster said:
I am interested in why Bambu is adamant in adding WoD to the list, since they've not articulated it yet.
Click to expand...
I already went over it. You've voiced disagreement but I don't really see it as being any different than something like Shinza. It should be on the list.

You've given your thoughts as to why you disagree, so now the list, as proposed, falls to voting.
 
Got permission from Bambu here

I just wanted to ask whether Minecraft should be removed from the list
The reason I ask this is that despite being one of the most popular games in recent history, and having quite a bit of notability in the powerscaling community in general (albeit, with a lot of the discourse surrounding MC off-site overrelying on game mechanics to wank shit), the verse doesn't really get too much attention on-site. It's only been in the past couple of months, really, that there have been a few smaller CRTS here and there, with them getting little staff attention: mainly, Garrixian here (rip) and Vzearr/Bambu here. The verse also isn't really controversial by any means, which is the main point this thread is trying to tackle.

Like, I'm not saying the verse is unpopular by any means, I just feel like requiring so much staff input will just make any future revisions far harder to accomplish and slow stuff down dramatically for little reason. Idk, that's just my opinion tho, I'd like to see others' thoughts on this.
 
I am personally fine with removing Minecraft from the list.

Also, wouldn't high-tier verses such as World of Darkness require higher scrutiny even without being included in this list, due to their extremely high tiering? Meaning, would including them be redundant? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I am personally fine with removing Minecraft from the list.

Also, wouldn't high-tier verses such as World of Darkness require higher scrutiny even without being included in this list, due to their extremely high tiering? Meaning, would including them be redundant? 🙏
Click to expand...
The main issue, I feel, is that not everything in World of Darkness is high tiered (although, my understanding is that, as the pages currently are, most profiles have direct access to high tier hax). Our rules adequately suggest that Tier 2+ requires an administrator and Tier 1+ requires more than the usual amount of staff, but nothing exists, to my knowledge, for the more esoteric abilities. This is less a redundancy and more a covering of bases and fringe cases.

I don't mind the removal of Minecraft, barring future admittance to its old weird controversial content (scaling Creative Mode or the End Poem). Minecraft as it exists currently has had the controversy sawed off of it.
 
KingTempest said:
The HST (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach) is a big set, most ppl don't touch the HST
Click to expand...
A common reason why very few staff evaluate is often because of the existence of uber dedicated fandoms where the slightest disagreement often leads to getting dogpiled. Likewise, it's a common habit for staff to have a fear of propoganda and what not. Though not all of them, others are just simply not a fan of Anime/Manga among other things (Despite that being the most popular medium on the platform)
 
KingTempest said:
I never said otherwise was an issue.

But with that in mind, if staff avoid them, does it make logical sense to give them the highest amount of staff required to evaluate them?
Click to expand...
It does, given the issues above. Logically the verses most vulnerable to the issues of controversy should receive the treatment of being controversial. It'll make revisions harder to pass, yes, but that's the point.

We already do this, it's already a rule, it just wasn't said explicitly which verses received this scrutiny, now it will be. And I don't think there's any verse more in need of it than something like Bleach.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I already went over it. You've voiced disagreement but I don't really see it as being any different than something like Shinza. It should be on the list.

You've given your thoughts as to why you disagree, so now the list, as proposed, falls to voting.
Click to expand...
The reason I asked was for you to expand upon it besides saying;

"It still has some lingering weirdness to it." and "WoD has had enough trouble in the past that I think it'd be fine to include it."

I don't know what these mean or refer to. The others on the list have definable reasons on why they should be there (Popularity/Existing Controversies/Repeated history of inflated stats), hence why I was asking for a more specific, defined answer. After all, WoD just passed it's revision for the new system and that went as smooth as butter on toast.

And after all, pretty much any verse could be labelled with "still has lingering weirdness" and "past controversies" because it could refer to anything.
 
Udlmaster said:
The reason I asked was for you to expand upon it besides saying;

"It still has some lingering weirdness to it." and "WoD has had enough trouble in the past that I think it'd be fine to include it."

I don't know what these mean or refer to. The others on the list have definable reasons on why they should be there (Popularity/Existing Controversies/Repeated history of inflated stats), hence why I was asking for a more specific, defined answer. After all, WoD just passed it's revision for the new system and that went as smooth as butter on toast.

And after all, pretty much any verse could be labelled with "still has lingering weirdness" and "past controversies" because it could refer to anything.
Click to expand...
Fair, I guess. As I said, I just reckon it's the same situation as Shinza. Still has the capacity for controversy, I'd rather it have the precaution on it.

I'm waiting to hear from a couple other cases but otherwise we'll move to voting proper here soon.
 
Udlmaster said:
Oh, what's the correlation between the two?
Click to expand...
I mean.

Extremely high tiered verses that in their heyday demanded huge swathes of staff attention that were notable for having those very high end abilities apply to very not high tiered characters. As Ant said, most CRTs for Shinza (and, of course, World of Darkness) will ultimately require three staff members anyways, as that is our policy for Tier 1 and 0-affecting CRTs. This clarification covers fringe cases, then, that are not Tier 1 or 0, but nevertheless pertain to equivalently esoteric abilities that should be given greater consideration.

I will remind you, now, that this is a staff CRT, and one that should not be made many pages long so people can read through it easily. If you have something to speak on, I'll give you permission for another post, but I believe you have been posting without permission for some time now, and I do not want idle picking-of-brains to become the norm here.
 
Got permission from Bambu

Personally, I don't think Jojo's Bizarre Adventure should be included in the list.

In the general VS Community? Sure, it's pretty popular; however, on here....it's pretty much crickets. Like, the last major revision was around 4 years ago and that was just to prove that FTL Jojo was fine, and the last "controversial thread" (one that went on a lot and had a lot of arguing) was 5 years ago. After that? Nothing. At best, there'll be a minor revision for a single or small group of characters, but that's it. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been any big controversy or major toxicity around the series ever. It's honestly so dead that most of the profiles are ass and a "big revision" consists of updating pages and upgrading lifting strength a tier (soon to come, hopefully).

I'm not really sure why it's even on the list tbh.
 
A last post permission that is given to me by Ant.

About Undertale, the latest threads for the verse were pretty chill actually, if you actually see them. The most controversial ones, other than this downgrade CRT that was rejected from everyone with no staff agreeing with it in less than 100 replies, were the infamous MHS downgrade, that was made however only last October, aka 9 months ago, the Sans profile rework of last September, or 10 months ago, and the most impactful one among them was this one of also last September, which only served to give a Tier 2 scaling to a pair of characters and other minor things (and basically none disagreed with it), aka only 2 highly discussed CRTs in the course of the last year, and both being really old.

Outside of the threads I have mentioned, you can see that the rest of the threads made in the last months are mostly minor additions in abilities. While Undertale is really popular in powerscaling talks off-site and it's really heated there, on VBW instead you can clearly see that the things have significantly toned down since the most active periods regarding this verse. The "controversy" issue, as you all can see, is mostly gone from a long time, and the verse's discussions stopped being as heated as they used to be years ago.

---

Gravity Falls is the same, the biggest CRT happened in the last months was downgrading the main cast from 8-B+ to 9-A and giving some abilities, alongside giving Tier 1 smurf hax to Time Baby, HDE to Bill Cipher, and some complex-ish abilities overall, but as you can see, the CRT was pretty chill and ended in 2 pages despite these changes. The most heated GF CRT that happened overall ever since the 1-B upgrade was only this one of the last year which was about upgrading the main cast to Relativistic, but the rest? Biggest one was the latest cosmology upgrade that was so dead that after 4 months of inactivity a new one had to be made, and even that was fully completed after 3 whole months.

Y'all would be killing the verse if you wanna apply this limitation, the only case the verse received attention on the levels of these controversial verses were the original 1-B upgrade (and even that had to be brought in a new thread because it was beginning to be inactive), and the first Bill Cipher revamp made in September 2023 after the BillCord Death Battle was made but the rest was never this viewed and commented on, and if it did, it never sparked controversy on this degree, just see the threads on the verse yourself.

Why is Gravity Falls even on the list, as the powerscaling discussions on this verse here died out from a while as you can see, we do not have the shitshow levels we had back then (and no, some staff disagreeing does not make it controversial at all).

TLDR: Both of the verses stopped being controversial from quite a while, and the evalutation for them being such bases itself only to the past, as instead they've been both consistently on a streak of stable CRTs in the last months, and aren't as active as they were before. I have even linked the list of the latest threads for both, and the evidence is all there, and limiting them would be just detrimental to both.
 
Last edited:
I do think you're being overdramatic (the royal you, that is) about how one additional staff member being required would "kill" these verses; staff are spread thin and slow to get to pressing matters and CRTs alike, it's true, but I don't see anything so extreme as us literally killing the verse dead in its tracks. Things will just take longer, which is fine- personally, I enjoy a good glacial pace.

Of the two, Gravity Falls seems more tenuous than Undertale- I really can't see me agreeing to the latter being removed from the list, it does simply have far too much of a history and penchant for causing trouble. Inconvenient or not, Undertale isn't out of the woods. Gravity Falls is a maybe. If most others support it being removed from the list, I will sign off on it, as well- but I think it's close enough to be considered legitimate, whether we have it on the list or not.
 
KLOL506 said:
Minor nitpick, but the lists being in alphabetical order would look neat.
Click to expand...
That can easily be done when it's actually officially posted, wherever that would be.

We mostly just need admins to say it's fine at this point so we can move on to having it be a thing we can refine case-by-case.
 
I'll issue a mass-ping so we can get this rolling, but @FinePoint, as keeper of the list up to this point, could you post a final final list? I'll acquiesce to removing Gravity Falls for now, as mentioned above.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I'll issue a mass-ping so we can get this rolling, but @FinePoint, as keeper of the list up to this point, could you post a final final list? I'll acquiesce to removing Gravity Falls for now, as mentioned above.
Click to expand...
In alphabetical order, as requested.

Ben 10
Bleach
Chainsaw Man
DC
Demon Slayer
Devil May Cry
Dragon Ball
Fairy Tail
Four Knights of the Apocalypse
Fujitakaverse (including Instant Death)
Genshin Impact
God of War
Hellaverse
Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
Jujutsu Kaisen
MCU/Marvel
Mario
Megami Tensei
My Hero Academia
Naruto
Nasuverse
One Piece
One-Punch Man
Pokemon
Sonic
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
The Misfit of Demon King Academy
Tokyo Revengers
Undertale
World of Darkness
 
I agree with the verses listed there, but I want to know what would be the minor revision case for those verses, for example, this character can create a fireball so fire manipulation or this character can rewind time so time manipulation, minor things like that would need the 3 staff per revision as well?
 
FinePoint said:
In alphabetical order, as requested.

Ben 10
Bleach
Chainsaw Man
DC
Demon Slayer
Devil May Cry
Dragon Ball
Fairy Tail
Four Knights of the Apocalypse
Fujitakaverse (including Instant Death)
Genshin Impact
God of War
Hellaverse
Jojo's Bizarre Adventures
Jujutsu Kaisen
MCU/Marvel
Mario
Megami Tensei
My Hero Academia
Naruto
Nasuverse
One Piece
One-Punch Man
Pokemon
Sonic
That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime
The Misfit of Demon King Academy
Tokyo Revengers
Undertale
World of Darkness
Click to expand...
Da3ggman said:
Got permission from Bambu

Personally, I don't think Jojo's Bizarre Adventure should be included in the list.

In the general VS Community? Sure, it's pretty popular; however, on here....it's pretty much crickets. Like, the last major revision was around 4 years ago and that was just to prove that FTL Jojo was fine, and the last "controversial thread" (one that went on a lot and had a lot of arguing) was 5 years ago. After that? Nothing. At best, there'll be a minor revision for a single or small group of characters, but that's it. As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been any big controversy or major toxicity around the series ever. It's honestly so dead that most of the profiles are ass and a "big revision" consists of updating pages and upgrading lifting strength a tier (soon to come, hopefully).

I'm not really sure why it's even on the list tbh.
Click to expand...
Would yall mind taking another look for JJBA? Ant already agreed with it, but obviously I think some more staff input is needed to take it off the list.
 
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