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Ain't no way that Reinhard got 0 wins in his profile
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Garou vs Reinhard (15-5-1)
- Thread starter Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
- Start date
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Hi. I'm City of Heroes. Here, we have bullshit MMO stuff from an MMO that up and died in like 2012
Arkansalter2
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Hi. I'm John EBG and I got victimized by person who does said feat.
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Actually Statesman can both do it himself and hilariously big upscales from people who do it.
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Alright fine, lets do this..
Firstly, Reinhard is already vastly superior to characters who can do this, again to the point where even if they trained and honed all of their techniques for an eternity they could never hope to reach his level.
For pressure points he is superior to Olbart, Roswaal, and others too since Rem could do so even
Now for the rain dodge non believers, I am sorry if you feel like it isnt a real "skill" feat. If you dont want it to be called skill, then be my guest, i dont really care either way and its just what its called in the story itself. Reid can cut concepts and space-time with skill, obviously we dont index it as such. However, you also cant really ignore the fact that ReZero characters can dodge impossible to dodge attacks when its smth that has happened so many times that its consistent now.
Here is a non transcendent dodging an attack with no opening btw
Now as @Zabazab mentioned, the divine protection of first sight and second sight essentially make it impossible for any of Garou's martial arts to be able to take out Reinhard. He is a master of all techniques in his own verse which covers almost all of the martial arts Garou has, in the end punches and kicks are just that, punches and kicks. This is a hax and just because you dislike it does not make it so that Garou would somehow be able to overcome it.
Reinhard also doesnt necessarily need to destroy buildings, anything he gets his hands on is equivalent to a weapon for him. Spatial cutting wouldnt be that hard to perform because of this
the rest i will cover later on
Firstly, Reinhard is already vastly superior to characters who can do this, again to the point where even if they trained and honed all of their techniques for an eternity they could never hope to reach his level.
This means that the fist of water is essentially useless, since any variations of it could never hope to reach his level of potency
For pressure points he is superior to Olbart, Roswaal, and others too since Rem could do so even
Now for the rain dodge non believers, I am sorry if you feel like it isnt a real "skill" feat. If you dont want it to be called skill, then be my guest, i dont really care either way and its just what its called in the story itself. Reid can cut concepts and space-time with skill, obviously we dont index it as such. However, you also cant really ignore the fact that ReZero characters can dodge impossible to dodge attacks when its smth that has happened so many times that its consistent now.
Here is a non transcendent dodging an attack with no opening btw
Now as @Zabazab mentioned, the divine protection of first sight and second sight essentially make it impossible for any of Garou's martial arts to be able to take out Reinhard. He is a master of all techniques in his own verse which covers almost all of the martial arts Garou has, in the end punches and kicks are just that, punches and kicks. This is a hax and just because you dislike it does not make it so that Garou would somehow be able to overcome it.
Reinhard also doesnt necessarily need to destroy buildings, anything he gets his hands on is equivalent to a weapon for him. Spatial cutting wouldnt be that hard to perform because of this
the rest i will cover later on
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who are you voting for
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Reinhard
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NGL this is one of the most basic arguments I've seen put together for skill feats.
I mean like substitution jutsu is better than the feat you presented
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I'm seeing nothing but wank for Reinhard. He scales infinitely above this guy so you can never reach him.
Anyways I want to correct something. Fist of water is not attack reflection or damage reflection. Those are some of the abilities derived from it. So saying Reinhard is infinitely above someone who can do those abilities is absolutely irrelevant.
Fist of water is about understanding each and every flow in the universe at it's peak, so unless you got someone with the skill to understand, match and control the flow of all energies in the universe in rezero, and then Reinhard still has some wank statement of "they will never reach his level" please!!! Bring some actual good skill feats
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Funny, none of what I said is wank, all of this in the story
Okay, what other abilities are part of it then?
There isn't a need to understand the flow of all energies to do this "basic shit" as you put it, the application matters and it's essentially the same.
Now, I see you still have not replied to anything related to the dodging feats or the fact that garou gets sliced apart at the start of their fight
Garou still can't even touch Reinhard because you would rather downplay and avoid any arguments against the actual meat and potatoes
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I know it's in the story. wank as in he's scaling above others and not him ever doing some impressive shit
That's irrelevant
I was correcting your flawed notion, the rest of the bs discussion going on here isn't really relevant to me. I'm not arguing for either side, just correcting bad notions.
If I can reality warp and some of the things that it gives me access to is like erasing people, or controlling them , It doesn't make someone that can also control people on the same level as me. A derivate ability doesn't put one at the same level at the source. Fist of water also has duraneg, are you saying everyone on the wiki that has duraneg is on the same level as him?
Like your arguments neither have head or tail. "This guy skill can do attack reflection, garou skill can do it to, since Reinhard is above that guy he is also above garou". This is basically what you said and it is just a very dumb argument. At least someone below even tried and put a couple of skill feats for him
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Garou fra
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That isn't wank, ReZero scaling works so that the feats are scalable to one another. Calling a power system itself to be a wank is wild icl
It's very relevant here
I really don't understand this notion of "post the feats or he doesn't have any" when everything is on the profile, the ******* profile was made so that we don't have to keep posting the same shit repeatedly. Debates are done when certain clarifications or additions are needed not to have to post the entire ******* profile back to back.
Anyways, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am not saying all abilities are the same if they are indexed as the same thing. In practice, Olbart's attack reflection and deflection, work very similarly to the attack reflection and deflectionof the fist of water. Due to this, ONLY that aspect of his ability would be something which would be directly scalable. I am not talking about the rest of it isn't similar to it.
Although I do believe this is entirely irrelevant since dp of first and second sight renders all martial arts useless due to the fact that Reinhard will instantly know how to counter anything thrown at him by Garou
Zabazab
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It's true that he isn't arguing well. If I were to reconstruct his argument, I'd say that he could handle damage reflection such as Garou's due to the fact that it's not something unheard of in his own verse in the slightest, even before considering the effect of First Sight.
Reinhard also does have a level of power mimicry though not as good as Garou's I'd say, it only lets him use and improve his opponent's long-cultivated martial arts as if they were his own.
Correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I think Reinhard has better mobility than Garou too on account of his acrobatics and the Divine Protections of Air Dashing, Clouds, and Swift Running.
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Ok, I'll just use your page.
Let's compare for real now.
Analytical Prediction
Garou:
Both Garou and Reinhard are pretty similar, but I think Garou edges out in terms of quantification because of a couple of things. Reinhard's feats don't have enough added context to match up exactly.
While they can both anticipate opponent movements, Garou goes a step further because he is at minimum able to calculate at least 3 "steps" into the future (Working off of this scan), even against characters who can speed blitz him. For Reinhard, without such further statements, he would be limited to just the "next move," rather than the "next next move," and "next next next move" like Garou is.
While they can both observe and keep track of surroundings, Garou has an explicit quantity of thousands of attacks attached to his level of anticipation, while Reinhard's observation is more vague.
The fact that Reinhard has predicted invisible things is very impressive, but also isn't very notable regarding the potency of the AP. Rather, it shows that his mechanism of predicting itself might be a bit superior to Garou's, since he can anticipate things with less information.
Overall, I give this point to Garou.
Instinctive Action
Garou:
Conclusion:
I was originally going to say that Reinhard wins here, but honestly I am not so sure anymore. Reinhard's best thing is the rain feat but it's not logically possible and lacks explanation so it can't really be used to compare their skills to each other.
Without that, he still does have that really cracked ability to just counter things he's seen before on instinct, and even invisible things, but as I've gone over again and again, this is going to be limited to the scope of what he has understood in his own verse. Which is why we are comparing skills in the first place.
Reinhard being able to predict invisible things is a relative feat to Garou fighting while he's literally unconscious. Garou being literally unconscious might even be superior as his conscious is not receiving any information whatsoever in that state, and he's able to maintain that state for an extended period of time. His body is just fighting by itself with how much combat experience he's burned into it.
I think this one is a toss-up.
Information Analysis
Garou:
And the OP literally already gave them the information at the start that the opponent is a skilled martial artist.
So I don't really think it factors in much, especially because Analytical Prediction is the better capability, but Reinhard edges out here.
Technique Mimicry
Garou:
I don't think it is surprising that Garou blows out Reinhard in this category, considering it is his main thing. Garou has copied multiple martial arts throughout the series and merged them together. Reinhard has no feats of merging techniques, only the presumed ability to copy them. He also has nothing on Garou doing things like this just by reading about them, or pulling them off in his sleep. And the martial arts that Garou copies are those than not even esteemed masters like Bang and Bomb can pull off at times. He EXCEEDS the capabilities of the people he steals the arts from.
Easy win for Garou in that category.
General Martial Arts
Garou:
Reinhard:
Conclusion:
I'd give Reinhard the edge for his bigger scaling chain, however he is held back a lot in this match because most of his talents are reserved for swordsmenship, not hand to hand fighting.
So, the winners of my categories are:
Analytical Prediction: Garou
Instinctive Action: Toss-up
Information Analysis: Reinhard
Technique Mimicry: Garou
Martial Arts: Reinhard
While this looks like a draw on first glance, there are some things to consider:
1. Information Analysis is mostly useless for this fight as both will gain the information they need regardless.
2. Reinhard's martial arts are mostly geared towards swordsmenship and he lacks feats in hand to hand combat. It would be disingenuous for me to say he is an equivalent master when it comes to boxing.
With that in mind, I give the overall advantage to Garou. I believe he will be far more proficient at predicting Reinhard's movements and simply combine any useful technique that Reinhard uses in the fight into his own skills. From there it is only a matter of time before he puts Reinhard to sleep with some combination of pressure point strikes.
Now we also have to factor in that Garou gets faster and stronger the more he fights, to the point of blitzing characters he was previously relative to in... 1.3 milliseconds.
Even the Re: Zero supporters have admitted that Reinhard's instincts can fail against attacks too fast for him to physically react to. So, Reinhard may even lose more of his capacity to actually fend Garou off in a martial arts battle.
I am casting my vote for Garou.
Let's compare for real now.
Analytical Prediction
Garou:
- Can see multiple moves into the future against opponents with a blitz-worthy speed advantage.
- Scales above characters who are far less skilled in OPM, such as Iaian, who is able to simultaneously track the movements of tens of thousands of attacks simultaneously, with his eyes closed, by just sensing murderous intent.
- Analyzes factors about the opponent such as center of gravity, posture, and eye movement. Uses this information to simulate a number of different possible movements for his opponent until he has confirmation of the correct one.
- Capable of anticipating and countering attacks "no matter how strong they are," and making them completely useless without hitting their mark.
- Has a "sixth sense" which perceives danger in advance.
- Can predict an opponent's future attacks. Can predict invisible attacks.
- Superior to Cecilius, who is constantly aware of everything in his surroundings, analyzing other's physical abilities, conduct, and sounds.
- Analyzes factors about the opponents like the movements of their eyes, feeling their hostility, and reading how they breathe as they aim. Can also predict attacks through experience and intuition.
Both Garou and Reinhard are pretty similar, but I think Garou edges out in terms of quantification because of a couple of things. Reinhard's feats don't have enough added context to match up exactly.
While they can both anticipate opponent movements, Garou goes a step further because he is at minimum able to calculate at least 3 "steps" into the future (Working off of this scan), even against characters who can speed blitz him. For Reinhard, without such further statements, he would be limited to just the "next move," rather than the "next next move," and "next next next move" like Garou is.
While they can both observe and keep track of surroundings, Garou has an explicit quantity of thousands of attacks attached to his level of anticipation, while Reinhard's observation is more vague.
The fact that Reinhard has predicted invisible things is very impressive, but also isn't very notable regarding the potency of the AP. Rather, it shows that his mechanism of predicting itself might be a bit superior to Garou's, since he can anticipate things with less information.
Overall, I give this point to Garou.
Instinctive Action
Garou:
- Water Stream Fist is a technique that enables him to move autonomously. It is a part of his composited martial art.
- Can fight while unconscious/asleep, which has allowed him to hold his own against stronger opponents like Darkshine and skilled opponents like Bomb & Bang. With Bang specifically being someone who also uses the Water Stream Fist and actively anticipates attacks.
- Has multiple BS Divine Protections can give him insight into attacks he's never seen before + the intuition to avoid or counter those he has seen before.
Capable of dodging rain on instinct.(Unquantifiable)Superior to people who can dodge 30+ nearly-invisible attacks.(This is not a case of instinctive action. Wilhelm was not acting autonomously)- Fights without any delay between decision making and action.
- Scales above a lot of really good instincts showcased in the Re; Zero verse.
Conclusion:
I was originally going to say that Reinhard wins here, but honestly I am not so sure anymore. Reinhard's best thing is the rain feat but it's not logically possible and lacks explanation so it can't really be used to compare their skills to each other.
Without that, he still does have that really cracked ability to just counter things he's seen before on instinct, and even invisible things, but as I've gone over again and again, this is going to be limited to the scope of what he has understood in his own verse. Which is why we are comparing skills in the first place.
Reinhard being able to predict invisible things is a relative feat to Garou fighting while he's literally unconscious. Garou being literally unconscious might even be superior as his conscious is not receiving any information whatsoever in that state, and he's able to maintain that state for an extended period of time. His body is just fighting by itself with how much combat experience he's burned into it.
I think this one is a toss-up.
Information Analysis
Garou:
- As mentioned above, he can analyze a couple of factors about an opponent's line of fight, center of gravity, etc.
- Can nigh-instantly replicate the techniques of an opponent.
- Scales above people who can instantly know the martial arts of those they fight against.
- Can grasp an opponent's vulnerable points.
- Can grasp a person's abilities at first glance.
- Knows of any Divine Protections.
And the OP literally already gave them the information at the start that the opponent is a skilled martial artist.
So I don't really think it factors in much, especially because Analytical Prediction is the better capability, but Reinhard edges out here.
Technique Mimicry
Garou:
- His signature ability. He's able to copy techniques he's seen at a glance and then merge them into his collective style of martial arts.
- As of this key, he has absorbed and merged at least 11 martial arts that he's copied together into one.
- He managed to merge Bang and Bomb's styles into one on his own, allowing him o use the "Roaring Aura Sky Ripping Fist," which is a technique that they, put together, could still barely pull off.
- Mastered the Exploding Heart Release Fist while unconscious, which is a technique that he gained a grasp of just by reading about it in an ancient scripture.
- He's able to use his composited martial art even while he's unconscious and similarly mimic techniques while he is unconscious.
- His copies improve on the originals.
- More skilled than Marcos, who can absorb techniques into himself after experiencing them.
I don't think it is surprising that Garou blows out Reinhard in this category, considering it is his main thing. Garou has copied multiple martial arts throughout the series and merged them together. Reinhard has no feats of merging techniques, only the presumed ability to copy them. He also has nothing on Garou doing things like this just by reading about them, or pulling them off in his sleep. And the martial arts that Garou copies are those than not even esteemed masters like Bang and Bomb can pull off at times. He EXCEEDS the capabilities of the people he steals the arts from.
Easy win for Garou in that category.
General Martial Arts
Garou:
- Reached the epitome of martial arts in his verse, putting him above the likes of Bang & Bomb, who themselves have led prestigious dojos and have decades of experience in the arts.
- He has stolen and combined multiple martial arts together during his time in the verse.
- Many of his martial arts are more complicated than just punching and kicking, involving becoming one with the "flow," like the WSRSF and WICF. He also has things like air manipulation, deconstruction, and vibrations through some of his techniques.
- Capable of instinctively hitting people's pressure points to incapacitate them.
Reinhard:
- As the Sword Saint, his aptitude for the sword is increased to his natural limit. This puts him above everyone in the verse when it comes to swordsmanship, which is a very, very big scaling chain with plenty of masters who are better than mastery.
- His level of talent is unreachable by masters like Wilhelm no matter how hard they train. Although someone especially gifted like Cecilus was able to reach just one step below Reinhard in 3 years of training during an IF story.
- He knows like every weapon art ever because of his Divine Protections. It also makes him skilled with his hands.
Conclusion:
I'd give Reinhard the edge for his bigger scaling chain, however he is held back a lot in this match because most of his talents are reserved for swordsmenship, not hand to hand fighting.
So, the winners of my categories are:
Analytical Prediction: Garou
Instinctive Action: Toss-up
Information Analysis: Reinhard
Technique Mimicry: Garou
Martial Arts: Reinhard
While this looks like a draw on first glance, there are some things to consider:
1. Information Analysis is mostly useless for this fight as both will gain the information they need regardless.
2. Reinhard's martial arts are mostly geared towards swordsmenship and he lacks feats in hand to hand combat. It would be disingenuous for me to say he is an equivalent master when it comes to boxing.
With that in mind, I give the overall advantage to Garou. I believe he will be far more proficient at predicting Reinhard's movements and simply combine any useful technique that Reinhard uses in the fight into his own skills. From there it is only a matter of time before he puts Reinhard to sleep with some combination of pressure point strikes.
Now we also have to factor in that Garou gets faster and stronger the more he fights, to the point of blitzing characters he was previously relative to in... 1.3 milliseconds.
Even the Re: Zero supporters have admitted that Reinhard's instincts can fail against attacks too fast for him to physically react to. So, Reinhard may even lose more of his capacity to actually fend Garou off in a martial arts battle.
I am casting my vote for Garou.
Zabazab
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It's 7 if memory serves right.
This is the most comedic one in terms of actual description, but Olbart is a shinobi so there's a chance he just used substitution jutsu.
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Just out of curiousity, what do you think about my and @MrTayman616's debate part, regarding Spatial cut, and if it's usable or not?
He can use it with any kind of blade, and likely even (according to the supporters), with a spoon or a stick.
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"Faster than Infinity"
"A strike that ripples across all possible realities"
"Regenerated from absolute nothingness"
Among all the absurdities y'all have seen throughout fiction, somehow it’s rain dodging being a skill that you all have a hard time digesting. Y'all ain't fckn real
"A strike that ripples across all possible realities"
"Regenerated from absolute nothingness"
Among all the absurdities y'all have seen throughout fiction, somehow it’s rain dodging being a skill that you all have a hard time digesting. Y'all ain't fckn real
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"faster than infinity:" This is logically sound. Infinity in set theory also has levels to it. You can count past Aleph-0, for example. It is also possible to be faster than instant travel via breaking the speed formula (Going through time itself)"Faster than Infinity"
"A strike that ripples across all possible realities"
"Regenerated from absolute nothingness"
Among all the absurdities y'all have seen throughout fiction, somehow it’s rain dodging being a skill that you all have a hard time digesting. Y'all ain't fckn real
"A strike that ripples across all possible realities." Also possible. This is just the range of an attack. There's nothing illogical about that.
"Regenerate from nothingness." Yeah, coming back from nothing doesn't break logic either.
"Dodging rain in a rainstorm." Well, the issue with this arises when you actually look into the volume of a person vs the volume of raindrops in a storm.
Average person has a volume of 0.06 to 0.07 cubic meters or about 60,000 to 70,000 cubic centimeters.
The density of rain in a rainstorm is 2900 to 3800 drops per cubic meter, or about 0.0029 to 0.0038 drops per cubic meter
This means that for the density of a human being, there would be, on average, about 150 to 300 drops within the volume of space they occupy at any given moment.
And every raindrop in the surrounding space would only leave, on average, about 6 to 7 cm apart. Male body has an average height of 170cm and is about 95cm wide, with a total surface area of around 1.7m^2
In summary, there is no possible way for a human body to exist inside of an average rainstorm without making contact with a raindrop. As I said before, it is the equivalent of saying you are the most skilled character for being able to fit a cubic meter inside of a cubic centimeter or being able to draw a square circle. Something that is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to do.
There is no context to make the feat possible in the case of Reinhard. Being able to do such a thing would imply some kind of shapeshifting or intangibility as pulling it off without any abilities is physically impossible.
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Its a funny video but unfortunately it isn't physically possible due to the math involved. If you have a real rebuttal, feel free to share.
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so it turns out the rain dodge feat is like fraud dodge feat
Zabazab
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I'd note that the Sword Saint aspect of analytical prediction analyzes more than just gaze, stance, breathing, and muscle movement, but also "the air that hangs about them", implying prediction based on something more than just physical details which can generally be obscured, although he'd also be able to see through an obscured attack anyway, even before considering First Sight which— while indexed as instinctive action on account of it verbatim granting "instinctive understanding"— still has an effect which is directly compared to foresight, granting Reinhard an understanding of what to do to defend himself.
And your point about the "next next move" actually reminded me that I totally forgot to include Wilhelm's own ability to predict a battle's flow in advance anywhere except for Wil's precog justification, not even in his own skillslop justification. At least I put it somewhere ig. Gotta fix that at some point.
I think Reinhard's intuition kind of overlaps as a blend of instinct and maybe ESP? It's a sort of superhuman guesswork[1] which is[2] honestly[3] completely[4] bullshit[5] in what[6] it allows[7] the verse's[8] transcendents[9] to do,[10] and even the intuition of non-transcendents can[11] get[12] really nutty[13] at times.[14]
Information Analysis/Power Mimicry is just Yeah I Agree.
Reinhard's hand-to-hand is still excellent on account of the DP of Unarmed Combat and being a master of countless martial arts akin to Gluttony, who is capable of literally every martial art and can handle anything thrown at him so long as it's based on purely finesse (although I'd argue that Gluttony's pool of mastery is wider even if Reinhard's is deeper), he usually fights without a sword anyway. Still probably inferior to Garou's based purely on feats I'd assume.
The stipulation with this however is that Reinhard, even in bare-hand cqc, is still practically wielding a sword due to the sharpness of the flat of his hands being equal to a Holy Sword or Enchanted Sword. It poses the threat of Garou losing a limb or received a deep cut from an unarmed blow. Then there's the fact that Reinhard can use practically anything lying around as a weapon, and his slash that split space was performed with a throwaway blade at the end of its life in a cellar. Also I thought his bright-light-vaporization attack was done only with weapons but it was shown in Ex1 and in the anime that even an unarmed attack can manifest a sword of bright flash of light that vanishes his target, even in all directions.
And yet he obviously[1] can[2] since[2] he and people[3] at his[4] level can[5] do so[6] consistently[7]. Feel free to not consider it skill (as with the likes of Reid's skills being so potent they manifest concepts and slice through dimensions or black holes). It's still evasion he is capable of, being logically impossible doesn't matter.
Garou's biggest advantage in my eyes is his accelerated development which could allow his speed to grow to the point that Reinhard would no longer be able to defend himself, but in the context of how fast these two characters are that 1.3 milliseconds seems way more lengthy than it sounds. Strength is less important on account of the Dragon Sword. Due to his info analysis Reinhard would be able to see the rate at which Garou is improving however, and would then be able to respond appropriately on account of superior mobility. Reinhard himself has several DPs to enhance his abilities here, although the one I'd call the most relevant is definitely the DP of Shedding Blood to continuously enhance himself further in a battle, and his DPs to wake him up if he's sleeping are also pretty significant if Garou's more in-character move is to KO rather than kill.
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It's not a matter that it didn't happen, but rather just the wiki not accepting it as a skill feat. So the feat can be used as/for argument's, just not for skill,
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Well Garou is able to do all of this instinctually while asleep, so that's where we can gauge the gap.
Again, Garou doing all his stuff while asleep is a much better feat for Instinctive Action.
Garou's flat hand was able to slice through a the armor of a being continental in length that was harder than the hardest materials in the world. Mind you, Garou is utilizing his Ki on a higher level than Nichirin who is able to use his body to pass through atoms.
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Still pretty much equivalent as OPM guys can sense things like murderous intent and react purely on reflexes to that (with eyes closed).
Predicting the outcome of a battle isn't the same as being in a battle and predicting the next moves.
Which is why I think that something like Yujiro predicting the outcome of a match is not really that impressive analytical prediction-wise.
It's equivalent to Garou being unconscious because he is not actually taking in any information consciously.
His body is just sensing and countering attacks on his own. It's similarly nonsensical.
Helps a bit but I would still say Garou being better in hand to hand is a given since its like... his main thing...
Gluttony scaling is good though. That guy is cracked.
Also Garou can practically use his hands as a sword too lmfao. He cut across a continental-sized centipede.
Garou has knowledge of Reinhard's resurrection which is why I mentioned KO being a win-con. He also doesn't really tend to kill humans.
What DP would wake him up?
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Faster than instant travel is absolute nonsense in physics. Moving through time is absolute nonsense in physics. Striking so hard that it ripples across all possible realities is absolute nonsense in physics. Regenerating from "nothing" from f nothing is absolute nonsense. None of them make sense logically. The very idea of moving faster than light without infinite energy and without breaking causality is absurd on its own let alone those examples. No offense, but the only thing I get from your explanation is how much out of touch you are
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You're conflating physics with logic.
Something being impossible in physics is not the same as something being logically impossible.
There is a difference between "faster than infinite" and "a square circle."
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worthless living up to his username again
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Turning a 0 into a 1 is not a logical impossibility.
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thats cool but do you have a vote
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It's not like all the skill slop in RZ is unusable, the problem is how the supporters portray and wank it even in scenarios where it is a non factor. We all wank characters feats, there's no wrong in that but do it in moderation. Shin Reglia in my verse with a regular iron sword, his back turned and a single sword swing only, simultaneously cut an opponent to pieces as well as the pouring rain and even the rain clouds as well without moving from his spot, no speed blitzing, spatial manipulation, shockwaves, wind blades nor special sword abilities involved. Will I use this feat to justify his skill? Yes, but will I use this to say nobody can dodge any of his attacks? Hell no
The rain dodging feat for example shouldn't matter in a match where both characters are engaged in cqc and should only be argued as a point if Reinhard and the likes are pit against a ranged danmaku spammer with an absurd number of projectiles to boot.
In every vs thread the supporters argue that the opponent cannot touch them at all because "dodged raindrops, grains of sand in a storm etc." however the truth is as admitted by them in their own arguments, Reinhard in reality cannot duck and weave everything, sometimes he has to counter even against opponents who are not close to infinitely transcendent skill gods like him. In hindsight, being unable to dodge and needing to counter already discredits a feat such as dodging raindrops and sand grains in a rain or sandstorm.
Reinhard's DP's of first sight and second coming also fall under this. Just as Theresia's ability to see lines of battle that show her a surefire way to kill her opponent was useless against Wilhelm because there was no means for her to cut him down, Reinhard eventually won't be able to avoid a skilled move from someone on or even close to his level. He'd to counter or be forced to take the attack. The same applies to the DP of initiative, a skilled opponent can very well avoid his first assault as far as there's no supernatural thing beyond homing involved in it. These three DP's basically boil down to a toss up combining forms of precog, analytical prediction and instinctive action. E can still be ready and responded to by any opponent worth their own salt with these same abilities. The sooner the supporters understand that, the better it will be for everyone.
Now as for worthless takes, no one has an issue with rain dodging nor are we saying it is impossible when there's more impossible stuff happening in fiction. The problem arises from it being logically impossible to be performed purely through ones physical ability/sheer reflexes with no other powers involved. It ain't happening, they're better off adding shapeshifting, intangibility or what have you to the profiles than continuously trying to pass this off as skill. It's pure BS induced by whatever crack the author was smoking but that doesn't mean we take the same crack as well to whole heatedly eat it up.
Dodging rain and sand grains in storms, escaping attacks with no openings for escape, dodging attacks hundreds or thousands of times faster than you through sheer reflexes, mental calculations and compartmentalization with no form of supernatural abilities involved is logically impossible.
The rain dodging feat for example shouldn't matter in a match where both characters are engaged in cqc and should only be argued as a point if Reinhard and the likes are pit against a ranged danmaku spammer with an absurd number of projectiles to boot.
In every vs thread the supporters argue that the opponent cannot touch them at all because "dodged raindrops, grains of sand in a storm etc." however the truth is as admitted by them in their own arguments, Reinhard in reality cannot duck and weave everything, sometimes he has to counter even against opponents who are not close to infinitely transcendent skill gods like him. In hindsight, being unable to dodge and needing to counter already discredits a feat such as dodging raindrops and sand grains in a rain or sandstorm.
Reinhard's DP's of first sight and second coming also fall under this. Just as Theresia's ability to see lines of battle that show her a surefire way to kill her opponent was useless against Wilhelm because there was no means for her to cut him down, Reinhard eventually won't be able to avoid a skilled move from someone on or even close to his level. He'd to counter or be forced to take the attack. The same applies to the DP of initiative, a skilled opponent can very well avoid his first assault as far as there's no supernatural thing beyond homing involved in it. These three DP's basically boil down to a toss up combining forms of precog, analytical prediction and instinctive action. E can still be ready and responded to by any opponent worth their own salt with these same abilities. The sooner the supporters understand that, the better it will be for everyone.
Now as for worthless takes, no one has an issue with rain dodging nor are we saying it is impossible when there's more impossible stuff happening in fiction. The problem arises from it being logically impossible to be performed purely through ones physical ability/sheer reflexes with no other powers involved. It ain't happening, they're better off adding shapeshifting, intangibility or what have you to the profiles than continuously trying to pass this off as skill. It's pure BS induced by whatever crack the author was smoking but that doesn't mean we take the same crack as well to whole heatedly eat it up.
Dodging rain and sand grains in storms, escaping attacks with no openings for escape, dodging attacks hundreds or thousands of times faster than you through sheer reflexes, mental calculations and compartmentalization with no form of supernatural abilities involved is logically impossible.
Zabazab
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I was told by someone that this was against Saitama, who afaik is not particularly skilled, and that his predictions weren't shown to be accurate against him while he was blitzing him. You only posted a cropped scan, so is that the full context?
Decided to look up this feat since it wasn't linked here and the link on Iaian's page is dead. It's not what you implied.
Having to cut 100,000 strands isn't the same as having to cut them or even track them one by one. Each of the tendrils likely contains hundreds or thousands of strands by themselves which are cut all at once by a single sword-swing. They are visibly not facing a sea of 100,000 individual strands, which need to be cut individually, but multiple condensed tendrils of hair in the order of several tens at most.
This is just an objectively less impressive showing than Wilhelm's withered skills against Petelgeuse, given he was by himself, facing down greater danmaku (upwards of 70 in this scan given there were only two other Fingers left), which he couldn't see, hear, or sense, using only the destruction of dirt particles in the air and occassionally Petelgeuse's gaze/breathing.
Garou's a feat of being more instinctual in nature, but what those instincts permit him is to fight as normal while his conscious mind isn't present, it's not on par with something like First Sight granting intuitive understanding of how to respond to new threats.
This still isn't describing it as sharp, and is mitigated by the fact that the one he's slicing is much, much, much bigger than him which creates a greater surface area ratio (which is really just what sharpness is). It's a feat of strength for sure, but it wouldn't be sharp against a human-sized opponent, unlike Reinhard whose knife-hand chop can split a person so keenly that their body doesn't split apart for several moments.
Wilhelm didn't predict just the outcome, he counted the exact moves. And after his opponent fell into her prepped underground space, lined with countless steel threads, he was able to recall their exact placement in the split-second he saw them glint in the light before falling down into the darkness, kicked off the walls without fear of being cut up, and then he dealt with a storm of thread attacks of trajectory and magnitude that even their user couldn't read them, by figuring out the exact angle and intensity he'd have to kick a thread to use it as a foothold.
I wouldn't consider them equivalent. While unconscious, the subconscious can still be active, and act in the place of consciousness akin to sleepwalking. I presume his eyes were closed, but his subconscious could realistucally use hearing and ESP to act instinctively, just at an impossibly ficticious level.
The bullshit intuition on the other hand is consistently guessing or having correct hunches about things you cannot realistically know, it's practically supernatural luck in a way. Having a hunch that you should go to a certain place and kill a stranger for no real reason, and that stranger turning out to have been the mastermind of your enemies; or evading attacks over and over not by prediction or sensing, but by just guessing in spite of the enemy being kilometers away and invisible while using invisible attacks, is a level of bullshit I'd put above sleepfighting.
Not named, it was a Q&A where the author said Reinhard cannot stay awake for more than a week, but a Divine Protection would wake him up so that he still can't be defeated. I'd presume it's either First Sight, the Second Coming, or Initiative, but it could be an unnamed one.
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Whether or not Saitama is skilled or not doesn't really matter he's still capable of calculating multiple next moves ahead.
He was shown to be dodging Saitama purely off his calculations and instincts despite Saitama having enough speed to just brute force his way through martial arts.
But Saitama continued to increase the amount of strength and speed he was using against Garou until it ultimately became pointless.
Downplay of the feat. Just because some of the hairs are bound together doesn't change that fact. They're still tracking a significant amount of tendril attacks. If you want to divide it into hundreds instead, sure. But it's definitely not less than 70 lol.
Subconscious understanding = Intuitive Understanding. There is no meaningful difference between those.
Being able to subconsciously counter something is no different than being able to intuitively counter something.
That's cool but it still doesn't really match 3 steps of prediction. Being able to predict the outcome of a fight while being outside the fight is not the same thing.
I mean, eventually this becomes never ending then because Garou will just continue to power-cliff Reinhard.
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If he cant get knocked out due to a DP waking him up, wouldnt this mean Garou has like no win cons
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