Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Uh, your own original post showing support isn't very specific either.

Because the support has been specific about their arguments. In fact, they quite literally have a blog out lining it. Either way, this is a deflection.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Can we like stop please?

Okay

 

[ChoursDropoff]

This some good stuff I agree

 

[Chariot190]

Qaw, I honestly don't understand what is going on here. Why are you deferring to Chariot when Vietthai already pointed out what was wrong with the argument?

Mayhaps because that isn't good enough and not how it actually works.

As unfortunate as it might be, fusing with something is not means to scale in AP.
Can he output that power? Can he use it to attack?
Simply fusing with a thing, no matter how big, doesn't inherently scale to stats. The most you could say is it would scale to his durability because he IS that thing now, so to kill him, you gotta kill that basically. Like that makes sense, sure.

But why, exactly, are we assuming Zamasu's actual power got boosted when he fused with it? Like legit why is his attack power getting infinity times stronger compared to what it was seconds ago because he melded with something? It don't make sense? They don't even say his strength, power, or even ki output was growing do they? For all we know, in fact based solely on what we actually know iirc, there wouldn't even be a difference between if Fully Merged IZ and IZ right when he began spreading shot a beam, the energy source, that being his own ki pool, or how he uses his energy is still the same that never changed?

The explanations given aren't even fact, they're just conjecture or guesswork, like the range = morepower argument, that doesn't even work there's been many outliers qin DB where a character has exceptionally long range or AOE on attacks or even the inverse regardless of stats, and Zamasu fusing with the universe isn't even really to do with his power anyway (As in he's the most blatant fringe case in the whole verse of wacky shit), that isn't good enough here we need direct solid proof for something like this.
They still need to show equivalent AP. It's no different from a character fusing with the ocean or a desert, just because it's apart of them doesn't mean they're like High 6-A now, maybe that's the AP needed to kill them given the fused state yeah, but that says nothing about their own stats.

Idk about anyone else, but I need very explicit hard stated proof that Zamasu's actual attack output grew as he fused, and I also need direct hard evidence that this extends to power to begin with and isn't just a wacky outlier because he's batshit crazy and immortal and etc (Can guarantee you Jiren or Freeza wouldn't be able to pull this type of feat off given the conditions even needed to do it are effectively Zamasu exclusive to begin with). HDE? Ok. Durability even? Yeah **** it we ball. AP/Power? That, on the other hand is simply conjecture and needs direct proof. Given it was mentioned above it wouldn't even be ED, shrug.

I mean come on, Zamasu already had 2-C and the justification was him merging with spacetime. There are literally zero problems here. The conclusions we came to are quite literally the most solid we could have right now.

Bro having 2-C as he boxes and scales to dudes who can blow up a bunch of universes, is not quite the same thing, the fact he also merged with a few universes, helps that case, this is no longer that case though.

 

[Saqphire]

Isn’t it already accepted that durability = AP in Dragon Ball? So agreeing Infinite Zamas would ”only” scale to Low 1-C in durability would lead to the same conclusion. Especially considering his energy (and thus AP) is what’s doing the whole thing

 

[StekFence]

Durability = Ap when it’s via UES. If it was because he was wearing higher durability armor it wouldn’t scale, something like that. Although I’m pretty sure the site treats fusing like this to mean your ap matches

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Mayhaps because that isn't good enough and not how it actually works.

As unfortunate as it might be, fusing with something is not means to scale in AP.
Can he output that power? Can he use it to attack?
Simply fusing with a thing, no matter how big, doesn't inherently scale to stats. The most you could say is it would scale to his durability because he IS that thing now, so to kill him, you gotta kill that basically. Like that makes sense, sure.

But why, exactly, are we assuming Zamasu's actual power got boosted when he fused with it? Like legit why is his attack power getting infinity times stronger compared to what it was seconds ago because he melded with something? It don't make sense? They don't even say his strength, power, or even ki output was growing do they? For all we know, in fact based solely on what we actually know iirc, there wouldn't even be a difference between if Fully Merged IZ and IZ right when he began spreading shot a beam, the energy source, that being his own ki pool, or how he uses his energy is still the same that never changed?

The explanations given aren't even fact, they're just conjecture or guesswork, like the range = morepower argument, that doesn't even work there's been many outliers qin DB where a character has exceptionally long range or AOE on attacks or even the inverse regardless of stats, and Zamasu fusing with the universe isn't even really to do with his power anyway (As in he's the most blatant fringe case in the whole verse of wacky shit), that isn't good enough here we need direct solid proof for something like this.
They still need to show equivalent AP. It's no different from a character fusing with the ocean or a desert, just because it's apart of them doesn't mean they're like High 6-A now, maybe that's the AP needed to kill them given the fused state yeah, but that says nothing about their own stats.

Qaw, I honestly don't understand what is going on here. Why are you deferring to Chariot when Vietthai already pointed out what was wrong with the argument? And I already proved Zamasu's energy was effecting time itself as per the statements, even disregarding his literal energy transcending the boundaries of the timeline, and merging with it entirely. Whis literally says it's an energy along with Beerus. It's AP. That's what the big bolded paragraph I wrote mentions and clarifies. You yourself already agreed with the notion of Zamasu becoming Low 1-C when he reached the present timeline. You said that to Vietthai. So again, by your own admission, It's still just Low 1-C and the following characters we stated still scale. We agreed that "up to Low 1-C" seems the most appropriate. There is no "eventually" anymore.

And it is in fact Zamasu's energy that's doing all this. This is common knowledge. It shot out from his literal body and merged with the fabric of time. As Vietthai explained already. It would be HDE (Which Zamasu already has) and the actual rating to go along with it, which was the point of the thread. I mean come on, Zamasu already had 2-C and the justification was him merging with spacetime. There are literally zero problems here. The conclusions we came to are quite literally the most solid we could have right now.

His energy was affecting the past timeline from the future. Ki (energy) is a UES that scaled to statistics, now if you wanna argue it’s an outlier be my guest. The thing is it’s still a valid feat, and if you’re gonna just assume it’s an outlier, then you better have substance for it instead of just claiming it.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't understand the eventually rating thing when it was literally show that IZ was already affecting Goku's timeline way before Goku dragged Zeno in to erase IZ. Whis noted his energy in Goku's timeline already so it is not eventually Low 1-C, but up to Low 1-C, he was already Low 1-C before erasure

Yeah. Like by that point he'd be Low 1-C imo. I just don't think he started at Low 1-C.

Mayhaps because that isn't good enough and not how it actually works.

As unfortunate as it might be, fusing with something is not means to scale in AP.
Can he output that power? Can he use it to attack?
Simply fusing with a thing, no matter how big, doesn't inherently scale to stats. The most you could say is it would scale to his durability because he IS that thing now, so to kill him, you gotta kill that basically. Like that makes sense, sure.

But why, exactly, are we assuming Zamasu's actual power got boosted when he fused with it? Like legit why is his attack power getting infinity times stronger compared to what it was seconds ago because he melded with something? It don't make sense? They don't even say his strength, power, or even ki output was growing do they? For all we know, in fact based solely on what we actually know iirc, there wouldn't even be a difference between if Fully Merged IZ and IZ right when he began spreading shot a beam, the energy source, that being his own ki pool, or how he uses his energy is still the same that never changed?

The explanations given aren't even fact, they're just conjecture or guesswork, like the range = morepower argument, that doesn't even work there's been many outliers qin DB where a character has exceptionally long range or AOE on attacks or even the inverse regardless of stats, and Zamasu fusing with the universe isn't even really to do with his power anyway (As in he's the most blatant fringe case in the whole verse of wacky shit), that isn't good enough here we need direct solid proof for something like this.
They still need to show equivalent AP. It's no different from a character fusing with the ocean or a desert, just because it's apart of them doesn't mean they're like High 6-A now, maybe that's the AP needed to kill them given the fused state yeah, but that says nothing about their own stats.

Idk about anyone else, but I need very explicit hard stated proof that Zamasu's actual attack output grew as he fused, and I also need direct hard evidence that this extends to power to begin with and isn't just a wacky outlier because he's batshit crazy and immortal and etc (Can guarantee you Jiren or Freeza wouldn't be able to pull this type of feat off given the conditions even needed to do it are effectively Zamasu exclusive to begin with). HDE? Ok. Durability even? Yeah **** it we ball. AP/Power? That, on the other hand is simply conjecture and needs direct proof. Given it was mentioned above it wouldn't even be ED, shrug.

Bro having 2-C as he boxes and scales to dudes who can blow up a bunch of universes, is not quite the same thing, the fact he also merged with a few universes, helps that case, this is no longer that case though.

Yeah no, AP reflected not only Power but also the character's tier itself, if you are the planet, you have Planetary AP, if you are the universe, you have universal AP, etc..... we have been doing this for years and now you suddenly saying someone who merged with the entire structure, being structure itself somehow didn't get the AP which reflect their tiering?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If you are the planet, you have Planetary AP

About that

 

[Chariot190]

Isn’t it already accepted that durability = AP in Dragon Ball?

In a general sense maybe. This is not a general case.

So agreeing Fused Zamas would ”only” scale to Low 1-C in durability would lead to the same conclusion. Especially considering his energy (and thus AP) is what’s doing the whole thing

Do you really think this is a standard case?
His durability would be that because he fused with the thing, that's it, that has very little to do with DB's conventional UES.

Durability = Ap when it’s via UES. If it was because he was wearing higher durability armor it wouldn’t scale, something like that. Although I’m pretty sure the site treats fusing like this to mean your ap matches

No it doesn't, ever, where did you get that? If it does there's usually ample amounts of proof, hell, those ocean and desert examples wasn't hypothetical, we've had tier 6 dudes at like tier 8 till we had enough proof to scale them to a higher value.

His energy was affecting the past timeline from the future. Ki (energy) is a UES that scaled to statistics, now if you wanna argue it’s an outlier be my guest. The thing is it’s still a valid feat, and if you’re gonna just assume it’s an outlier, then you better have substance for it instead of just claiming it.

Or maybe it's not even remotely like other cases in verse. It can be a UES, it can be anything it wants, this doesn't change the context in which Zamasu was even capable of it had very little to do with his power, is basically an exclusive feat all to himself due to outside conditions and factors that other characters would not have, and in and of itself, the very fact the feat is an over time case, shows it simply isn't just "oh he's this strong so he can do it", he had to actively fuse with the world itself, and then continue to fuse and spread and expand his influence over a period of time, actively showing it's not simply a manner of innate power.

Yeah no, AP reflected not only Power but also the character's tier itself, if you are the planet, you have Planetary AP, if you are the universe, you have universal AP, etc.....

Except when you don't. Please show me exactly on wiki where this is a standard or rule. And I can you show cases where we don't.

we have been doing this for years

We could've been doing it as of yesterday, two wrongs don't make a right, point me toward those cases, and if they are in fact faulty, I will personally make a CRT on them,.

and now you suddenly saying someone who merged with the entire structure, being structure itself somehow didn't get the AP which reflect their tiering?

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. You need proof. Vibes is not proof. Precedence isn't even proof.
Our goal is to index things properly based on solid evidence, consistency, and whatnot.
Prove he has that power output and isn't simply a state of existence.
Prove his attack power multiplied by a magnitude of infinity (given 5 seconds ago he wasn't that strong)
Prove it's simply a case of his power that he could do it and not the numerous very explicit caveats that went into that situation to begin with acting as external factors.
Prove EVERYTHING.
It doesn't matter what it is, you need to prove it, every, single, time.

Basically every argument I'm seeing right now isn't "oh here's explicit proof" it's "it must be because thing", I am contesting that very thing, that's obviously not good enough an argument.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

About that

The example here is only large size type 4 not 5 and his Ap reflects that.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Or maybe it's not even remotely like other cases in verse. It can be a UES, it can be anything it wants, this doesn't change the context in which Zamasu was even capable of it had very little to do with his power, is basically an exclusive feat all to himself due to outside conditions and factors that other characters would not have, and in and of itself, the very fact the feat is an over time case, shows it simply isn't just "oh he's this strong so he can do it", he had to actively fuse with the world itself, and then continue to fuse and spread and expand his influence over a period of time, actively showing it's not simply a manner of innate power.

The thing is you’re not addressing the fact that he’s affecting the past by his energy, it’s literally mentioned by Beerus, and Whis comments on how he can feel Zamasu. It’s why when the characters were 3-A, IZ was considered Low 2-C because of that very fact.

 

[Chariot190]

The example here is only large size type 4 not 5 and his Ap reflects that.

He's actually a few magnitudes below what his size would dictate. And one such thing needs prep.
Should be High 6-A given the scale of his size if we wanted to 1:1.

 

[SomebodyData]

The thing is you’re not addressing the fact that he’s affecting the past by his energy, it’s literally mentioned by Beerus, and Whis comments on how he can feel Zamasu. It’s why when the characters were 3-A, IZ was considered Low 2-C because of that very fact.

IZ was Low 2-C because he merged with the FT timeline, that was just supporting evidence

 

[Chariot190]

The thing is you’re not addressing the fact that he’s affecting the past by his energy, it’s literally mentioned by Beerus, and Whis comments on how he can feel Zamasu.

I didn't think I had to given it has absolutely nothing to do with Ap to begin with.

He's effecting the past, sure, because he's fusing with it?
And fyi, feel and effect are two very different things, especially when talking about a character who's actively fusing with the thing in question, I would pray they could feel his energy given it's encroaching and coming into said continuum.
He is not effecting it in any meaningful way beyond becoming it, which is just very cracked out fusionism, maybe some range slop idk.

It’s why when the characters were 3-A, IZ was considered Low 2-C because of that very fact.

Why do I care about what we did years ago? Should we go back and rate them as such too?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

IZ was Low 2-C because he merged with the FT timeline, that was just supporting evidence

And? Same applies here. We are just replacing that old Low 2-C scaling with a Low 1-C rating. The justifications are quite literally the same, they are just now reflecting the accepted hypertimeline.

 

[Saqphire]

Except when you don't. Please show me exactly on wiki where this is a standard or rule. And I can you show cases where we don't.

The Large Size page says this:

Some characters have considerably higher measurements than ordinary ones, which causes some of their combat capabilities, especially strength, speed (although agility and maneuverability might be limited), and durability to increase. We call this having a Large Size.

While it’s arguable that Zamasu actually has size manipulation since he’s increasing his size, the principles of both still apply; larger size, larger AP. Fusing with a hypertimeline is a very blatant Large Size/Size Manipulation type 10 feat since the dude became bigger than a multiverse lol

And the cases where the site doesn’t scale this are either faulty or have very specific context for why they don’t scale. We don’t run with whataboutism here

 

[Chariot190]

The Large Size page says this:

Yep, usually does. Not always though, and usually they have feats denoting it. And it's almost never 1:1, often we have to do GPE or KE.

While it’s arguable that Zamasu actually has size manipulation since he’s increasing his size, the principles of both still apply; larger size, larger AP. Fusing with a hypertimeline is a very blatant Large Size/Size Manipulation type 10 feat since the dude became bigger than a multiverse lol

Nope. You can argue his durability does sure, because he's that thing now, so to kill him, you need to kill that.
But do pray tell, how exactly is Zamasu simply being big scaling to his strength? He literally has no means to use his size to attack, the very reason that quote you linked is a thing doesn't apply to IZ.
He's legit one of the few examples who's exempt from that logic, like how is he punching people with his size, is he throwing himself at people with his size, etc? No, he isn't, he can't, the very fact he lacks a corporal body is what enabled him to fuse to begin with, he still simply uses ki attacks he had before merging, we know this because we literally see him do exactly that as his only means of offense.

 

[SomebodyData]

And? Same applies here. We are just replacing that old Low 2-C scaling with Low 1-C.

Yes but back then it's pretty clear he merged with the timeline on a low-2-C level, now it's being argued the he merged with the timeline on a tier 1 level.

If I could give an example: both low 2-C and 3-A are universal tiers, the difference in fusing with a universe and becoming tier 3-A or low 2-C is that the latter includes the entire timeline, even though space time is inherently part of the universe. We would need further evidence for the latter. Tier Low 1-C would require an additional further layer of evidence.

 

[TiltedFN]

I didn't think I had to given it has absolutely nothing to do with Ap to begin with.

He's effecting the past, sure, because he's fusing with it?
And fyi, feel and effect are two very different things, especially when talking about a character who's actively fusing with the thing in question, I would pray they could feel his energy given it's encroaching and coming into said continuum.
He is not effecting it in any meaningful way beyond becoming it, which is just very cracked out fusionism, maybe some range slop idk.

He's affecting all of time with his energy. I already pointed out that Beerus and Whis have no context of what is going on either. They just feel this massive energy and deduce is messing with Time. The present here meaning the actual timeline itself. This is just passive energy output like I explained. He would of eventually become that timeline as well. So Zamasu's energy can effect multiple Low 1-C constructs at the exact same time. It doesn't get more blatant than that. Saying its "in no meaningful way" is incorrect seeing as how the situation was treated from more powerful characters. So Zamasu's Ki=Low 1-C. And there is absolutely zero reason why this shouldn't be the case. I find our statements have far more backing than your arguments against it. As well as the standards backing up this notion.

Why do I care about what we did years ago? Should we go back and rate them as such too?

He's just explaining the logic of how and why this scales with Zamasu's energy. I mean it is still the same now. Which is why it was pointed out.

Anyways, I gotta sleep so I'll be absent for a little while.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I didn't think I had to given it has absolutely nothing to do with Ap to begin with.

He's effecting the past, sure, because he's fusing with it?
And fyi, feel and effect are two very different things, especially when talking about a character who's actively fusing with the thing in question, I would pray they could feel his energy given it's encroaching and coming into said continuum.
He is not effecting it in any meaningful way beyond becoming it, which is just very cracked out fusionism, maybe some range slop idk.

Why do I care about what we did years ago? Should we go back and rate them as such too?

The important thing to note is that he’s having an effect on the past due to his energy, he’s distorting it the same way he did Future Trunk’s timeline. The tiering system also gives us a breakdown of qualities that fall under the umbrella of significantly affecting: “Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.”

It’s because the logic or standards never changed, the reason why we’re not rating them those tiers is because we have statements of the cosmology that weren’t previously utilized, but the context of it doesn’t necessarily go away because it’s a higher tier now.

 

[StekFence]

No it doesn't, ever, where did you get that? If it does there's usually ample amounts of proof, hell, those ocean and desert examples wasn't hypothetical, we've had tier 6 dudes at like tier 8 till we had enough proof to scale them to a higher value.

I see

 

[Chariot190]

He's affecting all of time with his energy. I already pointed out that Beerus and Whis have no context of what is going on either. They just feel this massive energy and deduce is messing with Time.

I'm aware, the very fact they don't have context isn't a good thing though. They simply sense it.
Why, how, etc, they have no idea.
You're extrapolating it to be some manner of AP as opposed to do the dude who's fusing with stuff using his abstract essence, is felt, by dudes with super good sensing, in a world, he's trying to merge with. Like my dude come on, you're skipping a few hurdles of proof here.

The present here meaning the actual timeline itself.

I do not need you to explain the premise.

This is just passive energy output like I explained.

This is extrapolation, where does it say its passive? Especially when he was actively, on purpose, attempting to merge and cross over?

He would of eventually become that timeline as well.

Yep probably.

So Zamasu's energy can effect multiple Low 1-C constructs at the exact same time. It doesn't get more blatant than that.

Nope, you're taking an extremely niche, circumstantial, situation, and applying it to some degree of power.
His energy can fuse with a Low 1-C construct sure, but that's it, it's legit just smurf fusionism. He isn't damaging it, he isn't using his existing ki to effect it beyond becoming it due to fusing with it. The energy in and of itself, is simply him anyway, saying it's "just ki" is a bit, idk, def misleading.
It's hax if anything.

Saying its "in no meaningful way" is incorrect seeing as how the situation was treated from more powerful characters.

You JUST finished saying they had no context. You actively self sabotaged, if they have no context, their statements mean nothing because all we know is they can feel him, and that's legit just it.

So Zamasu's Ki=Low 1-C.

More like his batshit crazy agenda and immortality mixed with his ki and unkillable state let him merge with the world and then from there it simply expanded and kept going.
You're skipping like a dozen steps and looking at just the end result while ignoring the string of caeats to the feat to begin with, and just concluding it's all on his ki, when even in the best case situation, it's nothing but fusionism.

And there is absolutely zero reason why this shouldn't be the case. I find our statements have far more backing than your arguments against it.

I can think of dozens, in fact I can think of one right now.

You lack sufficient proof, half the argument is based on extrapolation, ignoring caveats and context, acknowledging characters as not having full context yet treating their statements made without said context as some display of power and then concluding that IZ's attack output must scale to his fusionism and range when that simply isn't how it works.

As well as the standards backing up this notion.

The standards actively contradict this notion my dude. It's why GPE calcs are a thing. We don't just scale say, a mountain sized dude to 7-A.

He's just explaining the logic of how and why this scales with Zamasu's energy. I mean it is still the same now. Which is why it was pointed out.

And we can easily change that in this very thread if need be, a CRT can and will tackle aspects if they need changing if they're relevant to the topic at hand.

Anyways, I gotta sleep so I'll be absent for a little while.

Same tbh.

 

[Chariot190]

The important thing to note is that he’s having an effect on the past due to his energy, he’s distorting it the same way he did Future Trunk’s timeline.

So by fusing with it.

The tiering system also gives us a breakdown of qualities that fall under the umbrella of significantly affecting: “Significantly affect" is here used as an umbrella term for feats that don't involve direct creation or destruction but are comparable to them in power, such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question, sustaining its existence with energy, merging the structure with another one, etc.”

So not what's actually happening? Simply using the same word, that being distort, doesn't mean it's on the required scale.
Plus like, he wasn't, he was fusing with it, that's legit the extent of which.

It’s because the logic or standards never changed, the reason why we’re not rating them those tiers is because we have statements of the cosmology that weren’t previously utilized, but the context of it doesn’t necessarily go away because it’s a higher tier now.

I'm starting to think he never should have been rated like that to begin with, and simply had the durability/HDE, back when they were only 3-A.
For argument's sake.
Everything still does apply.
If he had only 3-A AP prior, why did it suddenly increase infinities, why would he scale to size when none of his attacks use said size offensively to begin with, why are we treating his ki, that being, literally just him, fusing with the world, due to an extraordinary situation that absolutely isn't just "power", to translate 1:1 with ki output? In fact why are we even treating it like that here? How do we even know he's fusing with the hypertimeline? Maybe he did, or maybe he just has range to extend over into the next one and is fusing with the embedded worlds? Range isn't AP either too.

There's a whole lot of extrapolation going on here and not many direct concrete evidence (Which mind you, tier 1 has by wiki rules, higher degree of standards. Not that I think it should, I think everything should be held to the same standard, but it is what it is).

 

[Vietthai96]

Get a short break at my work place so i will just make a quick comment

Yep, usually does. Not always though, and usually they have feats denoting it. And it's almost never 1:1, often we have to do GPE or KE.

Nope. You can argue his durability does sure, because he's that thing now, so to kill him, you need to kill that.
But do pray tell, how exactly is Zamasu simply being big scaling to his strength? He literally has no means to use his size to attack, the very reason that quote you linked is a thing doesn't apply to IZ.
He's legit one of the few examples who's exempt from that logic, like how is he punching people with his size, is he throwing himself at people with his size, etc? No, he isn't, he can't, the very fact he lacks a corporal body is what enabled him to fuse to begin with, he still simply uses ki attacks he had before merging, we know this because we literally see him do exactly that as his only means of offense.

Yeah no, some of your example is exception, not the general rules and it is case-by-case basis

Also, your logic isn't work from High 3-A onward, as they are infinite and higher infinity, a fraction of infinity is still infinity. No matter how you phrase it, with his enery he become one with timeline and affect other, evem if you argue that he only shot ki blasts then said ki blasts still contain his power, and a again as i have said, a fraction of infinity is still infinity, unless you have explicit proof that his ki blasts is somehow not Low 1-C

IZ lack a corporeal body doesn't matter, he became one with space-time which is physical dimensions, thus his body possesses physical quantity, saying he has physical durability but not AP is really bad logic and again, even a fraction of that physical quantity is still Low 1-C, because Low 1-C is higher infinity, a fraction of it is still Low 1-C. Even a addition of another small, insignificant-sized dimensional axis already infinitely greater addition, mathematically speaking, let alone an addition of significant dimension

 

[Chariot190]

Get a short break at my work place so i will just make a quick comment

Yeah no, some of your example is exception, not the general rules and it is case-by-case basis

Case by case?
So, that is to say, you've been arguing based on "standards" and "rules" and "precedence", yet, there doesn't exist any, it's case by case, and you have to actively prove it because it's case by case, and there's no standard default to begin with?
If that's the case, prove it.

Also, your logic isn't work from High 3-A onward, as they are infinite and higher infinity, a fraction of infinity is still infinity.

It works up to like High 1-B lad or whichever one is when dimensions stop being a thing idk, his AP isn't scaling to begin with, you need to prove that bit first, but you're using a conclusion as evidence for said conclusion, that isn't how this works.
His only known attack method, uses the energy he had while he was 2-C, hell even Goku ate one of the attacks.

You might argue "well that was before, he got stronger", but WHERE does it say that? You're claiming he grew multiple infinites stronger in AP? Prove it.
All that happened was he fused with with the world, but nothing says his power grew with it, the best you get is that his ki could be sensed, but like, I would pray his ki could be felt given he's fusing with the very world and using what is very blatantly hax, to cross over to the other timeline. If Beerus couldn't feel an actual universe that would be a anti-feat for him, not a feat for IZ.
None of that actually says or confirms his AP increased.

No matter how you phrase it, with his enery he become one with timeline and affect other, evem if you argue that he only shot ki blasts then said ki blasts still contain his power, and a again as i have said, a fraction of infinity is still infinity, unless you have explicit proof that his ki blasts is somehow not Low 1-C

Fallacious argumentation.
We have literally thousands of characters who have smurf hax, smurf energies, and more, who don't scale to said higher D hax in AP simply because of that inherently flawed logic.

No offense, but I'm actively contesting you, just because you "said it" isn't good enough, I'm asking for actual tangible evidence, which should be completely reasonable here, like I ain't asking for much beyond the bare minimum requirements.
Direct proof, that's all that matters here. You either prove it, or you don't, there's no in-between.

A fraction of infinity is still infinity, but his AP isn't a fraction of said higher infinity to begin with, you have to prove he got stronger by said infinities to make this argument in the first place, otherwise it's just a self fulfilling argument, and as it stands, there's zero evidence showing it did, as such, it's just hax and range, every other verse has to do it, DB isn't special.

IZ lack a corporeal body doesn't matter,

It is the entire reason the feat is even possible, I'm not humoring this.

he became one with space-time which is physical dimensions,

I'm going to refrain from commenting on that extreme simplification and just say that it don't matter or changes the fact IZ can't use his body or size to attack or act offensively anyway.
Thus, it's a moot point.

thus his body possesses physical quantity,

He explicitly doesn't have a physical body.
Fusionism, Multilocation & Abstract Existence (Type 1 - Will, Thoughts & Ideas; By casting aside his divine vessel, he became his very will/thoughts/ideas of justice[...]

Right on the page, he lacks a corporal body, he is simply his will and thoughts now, by being this abstract embodiment, he was able to fuse with reality (Which thinking on it, if you're arguing he actually became corporal and physical he needs to lose some of that stuff). That is cool, that did happen, but that doesn't mean anything beyond range and durability, it might've been AP if he was ACTUALLY physical and could use said size, because a fraction of that infinite size's output would still be that infinity, yep, but again, he can't even do that, all he got is pew pew blasts from a infinitely weaker form, drawing from that same infinitely weaker pool of, I guess we're calling it energy here?

saying he has physical durability but not AP is really bad logic and again,

Logic? He quite literally doesn't, this isn't even up for debate, he has zero means to use his size in an offensive manner.
This isn't something you can argue, he can't punch, he can't kick, he can't even throw himself at people, he lacks a physical form completely, can't use his size offensively (So the whole "size=AP" argumentation doesn't even get off the floor here), and the ONLY method of attack he has in this state, is ki blasts, which, you need to prove, scales to his size, which, you haven't.

even a fraction of that physical quantity is still Low 1-C,

Which is why durability is fine, not the thing there's no proof for and he can't actually do.

because Low 1-C is higher infinity, a fraction of it is still Low 1-C. Even a addition of another small, insignificant-sized dimensional axis already infinitely greater addition, mathematically speaking, let alone an addition of significant dimension

You said an awful lot of the exact same thing without giving even the slightest semblance of proof.
Your entire argument either doesn't apply to IZ in particular due to his nature or because he can't utilize the thing you're arguing for, or it just doesn't matter in the context of this situation.

IZ can not use his size offensively, so he doesn't get AP for it, if anything he shouldn't even have striking strength in this key, should be Unknown or just Not Available.
IZ's "energy" did nothing except fuse him with the dimension in question, and only due to a highly circumstantial situation that has very little to do with AP, honestly calling it energy is extremely generous, there's definitely conflation going on here between his soul/ideas/will, and actual "energy" as it's being defined.
IZ's energy being felt doesn't mean anything either, nor does it reaching the other timeline by default too (Like we aren't about to give the Time Machine or Time Ring low 1-C AP because it has low 1-C range, are we? The main argument is legit just the same stuff they do).
He didn't distort or warp anything beyond fusing with it.
You can, in fact, have higher D hax and not have higher D AP.
You can in fact have higher D durability, and not have higher D AP.
Sizes do not automatically give you AP, you need to showcase said size in a offensive manner, and most of the time you don't even get durability we use GPE, IZ just happens to skip that step due to the scale at which he fused, with something having that durability by default.


So, I ask you, give actual proof, and while you're at it, show me these rules you keep claiming we have.

And actually funny that, isn't it a bit odd how IZ's crossing over is through a dark portal? As in much like how when Trunks' time machine leaves a time warp, as stated in ep50, which can be utilized by say, the time ring/Goku Black, to appear from a rift caused by its passing through time to follow them.
And how IZ appears out of the same exact time warp portal, with it even being compared to what Black did in his debut (so the anime draws an exact parallel, so not simply a coincidence and something they want you, the viewer, to make note of), would it not directly imply IZ crossed over the exact same way due to the identical appearance of it and even acknowledgement of it being almost the same?
As in, not inherently power based but through various facets of hax?
Of course you could argue it can't be the time machine's constant warping being exploited, but in the end that doesn't matter, as it still shows that IZ's crossing is more hax based, being identical to the way the time ring does it, than through some sort of AP-like statistic? Unless we, as said, want to give Time Ring/Time Machine AP value for uh, having range and good dimensional travel ig?
it's almost like it's more hax-based than AP based, unless we want to say the time ring and TM are low 1-C in AP for having range.

Or maybe that isn't actually the case, who knows, but the fact that I can even contemplate that and it not be 100% impossible means this isn't even remotely as solid as suggested, and tier 1 memes, or anything really, needs solid concrete proof, which isn't being given here.

 

[Starsprite53]

I can't believe I'm saying this but chariot is bringing up good points.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

His only known attack method, uses the energy he had while he was 2-C, hell even Goku ate one of the attacks.

You might argue "well that was before, he got stronger", but WHERE does it say that? You're claiming he grew multiple infinites stronger in AP? Prove it.

In fact, the claim the pro-OP side is making is far more impressive than simply ‘grew multiple infinities stronger,’ because the difference between higher and lower dimensions is intrinsically one of greater ontological complexity, something that can’t even be fully expressed through mere arithmetic increase.

What’s being said is that, the moment Fusion Zamasu became ‘justice’ and began fusing with the hypertimeline, he became so absurdly strong that the gap between him and Goku or the others would be utterly unbridgeable.

I think it’s important to emphasize this, because as you rightly say, narratively this sounds extremely unlikely, and as far as I know there’s never any mention of a power-up of that kind; rather, he keeps attacking with Ki attacks that the other characters can react to and/or tank, which should be impossible unless Goku and the others have Low 1-C durability (something which, if they did, would turn this thread’s argument into massive circular reasoning).

For the moment, I’m siding with Chariot.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

What’s being said is that, the moment Fusion Zamasu became ‘justice’ and began fusing with the hypertimeline, he became so absurdly strong that the gap between him and Goku or the others would be utterly unbridgeable.

Hate to be the one to throw the wrench here, but IZ specifically embodies his own ideals, not the type 1 concepts of them. That interpretation was also rejected for IZ in a CRT from two months ago.

Of course you could argue it can't be the time machine's constant warping being exploited, but in the end that doesn't matter, as it still shows that IZ's crossing is more hax based, being identical to the way the time ring does it, than through some sort of AP-like statistic?

In fairness, all we know is that he was able to do so after becoming IZ; the method itself is never clarified. The Time Ring could have been involved, he could have used some inherent ability from his new form, or something else entirely— but the narrative doesn’t specify. Insofar attempts to explain it beyond that seems to be based on conjecture.

Occam’s Razor suggests that IZ simply traveled to Goku’s World after merging with Future Trunks’ universe, using means that are evidently a result of his new form. I think that is fairer to say, no?

I also notice some liberal use of the term “timeline” to suggest that an entire timeline was merged or destroyed. In the arc, doesn’t “timeline” simply refer to Future Trunks’ Earth and his Future Universe 7, rather than a literal, complete future timeline? Scans only show that Future Universe 7 was erased, not the timeline itself. Interpreting it this way— as Trunks’ Future Earth being called “his timeline”— seems to make more sense narratively speaking. After the arc, we’re told Future Trunks and Future Mai cannot return because there’s nothing left to go back to, since Future Zeno erased it. Even Goku traveling back to nab Future Zeno also seems to show that there's nothing left to return to, hence why Future Trunks and Future Mai had to go to a completely different timeline at the end of the arc. Because their original Earth and universe in that timeline was just erased; not because the actual timeline was.

Moreover, how is it that Goku was able to time travel back to the future to grab Future Zeno at all if the timeline itself was destroyed? Where exactly were they otherwise, if not a destroyed universe within an actual future timeline? Am I crazy in thinking that a time machine was used to go back to a timeline that evidently still exists in that instance, or does the Time Machine also qualify for Low 1-C range Time Travel?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Hate to be the one to throw the wrench here, but IZ specifically embodies his own ideals, not the type 1 concepts of them. That interpretation was also rejected for IZ in a CRT from two months ago.

Okay, but how is this related to what I said? No offense.

I've never claimed that he became the Type 1 concept of these ideals.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Okay, but how is this related to what I said? No offense.

I've never claimed that he became the Type 1 concept of these ideals.

In fairness, IZ becoming “justice” is something I remember being debated as an actual Type 1 concept. I assumed that's how you interpreted him becoming 'justice'. My mistake.

 

[Damage3245]

So far Chariot does seem to be making the most sense to me here.

 

[Chariot190]

In fairness, all we know is that he was able to do so after becoming IZ; the method itself is never clarified. The Time Ring could have been involved, he could have used some inherent ability from his new form, or something else entirely— but the narrative doesn’t specify. Insofar attempts to explain it beyond that seems to be based on conjecture.

Occam’s Razor suggests that IZ simply traveled to Goku’s World after merging with Future Trunks’ universe, using means that are evidently a result of his new form. I think that is fairer to say, no?

I mean the fact they never say, and the fact we have to guess is a huge problem.
We shouldn't be basing the statistics of a character on guesswork ever. At absolutely best that's only ever going to be a possibly.

Moreover, how is it that Goku was able to time travel back to the future to grab Future Zeno at all if the timeline itself was destroyed? Where exactly were they otherwise, if not a destroyed universe within an actual future timeline? Am I crazy in thinking that a time machine was used to go back to a timeline that evidently still exists in that instance, or does the Time Machine also qualify for Low 1-C range Time Travel?

Actually yeah wtf, the hypertimeline is obviously still there otherwise there'd be nothing for the time machine to go back to, especially given how it's explained to work back in the Cell Saga with all the funny coordinate slop. And like, it isn't like they actually say that's what was destroyed, we're just kind of assuming it extends that far, simply voiding everything embedded in it would get the exact same results that we see.
That kind of implies everything BUT the overall hypertimeline was effected tbh.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm starting to think he never should have been rated like that to begin with, and simply had the durability/HDE, back when they were only 3-A.

Wait, just to be sure, do you think Infinite Zamasu should go back to 3-A?

If your stance in the thread is accepted, of course.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'm aware, the very fact they don't have context isn't a good thing though. They simply sense it.
Why, how, etc, they have no idea.
You're extrapolating it to be some manner of AP as opposed to do the dude who's fusing with stuff using his abstract essence, is felt, by dudes with super good sensing, in a world, he's trying to merge with. Like my dude come on, you're skipping a few hurdles of proof here.

I'll just get out a reply while I can.
No it is a good thing. Even without seeing Zamasu's astral state, it's deduced that this energy is capable of, and is affecting time itself. That is far better than just seeing it with their own eyes to come to this conclusion.
I mean this is literally an AP feat as well. If his energy can mess with the present timeline itself, it does scale.
It's not just about the sensing, we are literally told the context of what's happening by beings who do not have context. I literally sent all the proof I needed to make the claims. I'm not extrapolating anything. Based on what we are literally told, it would be AP.

I do not need you to explain the premise.

I feel like I really do so you understand the context.

This is extrapolation, where does it say its passive? Especially when he was actively, on purpose, attempting to merge and cross over?

Well when I say passive, I mean it's just the lingering Ki just from Zamasu existing.

Yep probably.

Right..so he scales to it. You don't just merge with an infinitely more complex structure with your pure energy and just not scale to it. It means Zamasu would need the power to pull something like this off. He became an astral form, but it's still not possible for this not to scale since if you don't even have the energy to BEGIN doing this. Zamasu breached the timeline with pure power and existence. Think of it like this. Multiple dragon ball characters were able to just break spacetime, and breach into other ones with Raw ki alone (like gotenks for example). So it is their actual energy doing things like this. It wouldn't be any different from Zamasu. If he can breach the hypertimeline after merging with it, and start merging with other ones, I feel like this is as blatant as it can get.

Nope, you're taking an extremely niche, circumstantial, situation, and applying it to some degree of power.
His energy can fuse with a Low 1-C construct sure, but that's it, it's legit just smurf fusionism. He isn't damaging it, he isn't using his existing ki to effect it beyond becoming it due to fusing with it. The energy in and of itself, is simply him anyway, saying it's "just ki" is a bit, idk, def misleading.
It's hax if anything.

I know he's abstract, but It's still Zamasu's energy. Clearly it's not just his Ki. It's literally all of his new form. But Ki is still Ki. Not sure what's misleading about all that. I did already mention what Zamasu did and what he became, so I don't see a problem here.
What do you mean "damaging" the timeline here? That's pretty vague. Corrupting and Fusing with it can be just as damaging. He's literally harming the timeline with his presence, that's the whole point of him lmao. He doesn't need to destroy something to scale to it at all.
He's causing harm to the timeline by turning it into something it wasn't supposed to be. Saying it's "nothing but fusionism" or "smurf fusionism" is definitely the misleading part, maybe even a bit dishonest.

You JUST finished saying they had no context. You actively self sabotaged, if they have no context, their statements mean nothing because all we know is they can feel him, and that's legit just it.

They can feel Zamasu yes, and then the statement that the energy, or whatever is going on is effecting time. Their statements would have value. And the statement literally lines up to what's happening so it's not like Beerus is unreliable in this instance. He's also not correct by Whis. Like I said, in fact, it was so urgent that they raced over to earth to see if they could get more information as to what was happening. Which means it's not a localized threat. Why would Beerus just say something like that for absolutely zero reason? Is Beerus just talking out of his ass here? Has no idea what he's talking about? Talking to talk?

More like his batshit crazy agenda and immortality mixed with his ki and unkillable state let him merge with the world and then from there it simply expanded and kept going.
You're skipping like a dozen steps and looking at just the end result while ignoring the string of caeats to the feat to begin with, and just concluding it's all on his ki, when even in the best case situation, it's nothing but fusionism.

I'm not skipping any details. I literally outlined everything that was happening when I wrote this thing. You don't get to tell me that I'm skipping a ton of steps when I went over legit everything. The problem, is that you're bringing up irrelevant things that don't actually effect the scaling.
He can have fusionism, range, and immortality. Absolutely none of it stops Zamasu scaling as you claim it does. You say It's nothing but fusionism, I simply disagree. That is an extremely weird and watered down version of what's happening. Both can be the case. I mean it literally is. By becoming Infinite Zamasu, it also gave him more abilities. I mean it's just natural.
I can literally say the same for you, but instead of "skipping steps" you're underestimating and misinterpreting how all this gives him a rating in accordance with the standards and power system.

I can think of dozens, in fact I can think of one right now.

You lack sufficient proof, half the argument is based on extrapolation, ignoring caveats and context, acknowledging characters as not having full context yet treating their statements made without said context as some display of power and then concluding that IZ's attack output must scale to his fusionism and range when that simply isn't how it works.

More like verbatim statements lol. I used all the statements and showings we were given to arrive at a conclusion.
You're asking for way more that is necessary. When all you need is shown on screen. You also said he'd scale to durability via his size alone. The problem is that his Ki still encompasses his size. He's literally fused with the fabric of time along with the energy. Why would only his durability scale and not the AP?
That's extremely backwards to me and doesn't make any sense.

The standards actively contradict this notion my dude. It's why GPE calcs are a thing. We don't just scale say, a mountain sized dude to 7-A.

They really don't. Multiple people pointed out some of the standards to you. It's even more different when you factor in higher dimensional structures as well. It'd be wildly different from like 3 dimensional structures. Since tier 2 usually includes time itself and that whole mess.



Just to add a bit more here in a general sense. I also already pointed out that Zamasu was able to completely traverse the space between timelines as well. We see IZ show up in the present timeline for a bit. And remember, Zamasu spreads and grows in his astral state. He doesn't have a time ring, or time machine, or any other known ways of reaching a timelines besides pure existence and power. We know that you have to actually traverse this space between timelines when traveling them. It means it wasn't just some portal power that allows him to go anywhere he wants, It's literally just Zamasu himself. If he can do that without like any special means, then It's a big deal.

And back to the durability thing. Even if it did only scale to durability, why wouldn't this just place beings like Jiren above post PT Zamasu anyway? Dude is literally the strongest foe they have ever faced. Has the strongest energy, can shake Gods themselves. And again, it would be really weird for this energy of this Low 1-C Zamasu body to not be recognized in full by people who have sensed him. If he's fused with a Low 1-C construct, his it's still his energy. Characters sensing this energy before and sensing even stronger energies and showing stronger reactions just implies later foes have surpassed Zamasu in full later. Unless you think IZ everyone? It doesn't add up at all. You'd need to come with substantial proof to back up that claim. There's no reason why someone like Jiren wouldn't be able to damage Zamasu's Low 1-C durability after Post PT appearance.

 

[Chariot190]

Wait, just to be sure, do you think Infinite Zamasu should go back to 3-A?

If your stance in the thread is accepted, of course.

No, he's still upscaling 2-C dudes, and he DID fuse with space and time. So worst case bro's 2-C all the same because he can hurt 2-Cs with his attacks, and durability/HDE wise he's still one with a few universes.
But like, fusing with space and time and fusing with the hypertimeline we claim DBZ to have is like, there's a bit of a gap there if ya know what I mean and they don't ever actually say he does, show he does, and we're just kinda of assuming he did because reasons?
Like maybe just hold over from when we didn't have a hyper timeline, so him fusing with time and space just kind of meant what we treat as simply embedded now, and Zeno's slop and the TM working to go back there still working we just kind of handwaved like "well yeah it don't make sense but they explicitly say [thing] so it is what it is" but that's no longer all of it anymore, and the alleged existence of a hyper timeline would actually explain that lil ***** too.

There's a gap in the thought process here, we're making a whole extra new assumption, assuming it's fact, and using that as evidence to support this OTHER claim, when the first one isn't even proven yet.

 

[Chariot190]

I'll just get out a reply while I can.
No it is a good thing. Even without seeing Zamasu's astral state, it's deduced that this energy is capable of, and is affecting time itself.

Yeah, by fusing with it? Not in a way that is meaningful to AP.

That is far better than just seeing it with their own eyes to come to this conclusion.

No it's actively worse, it's a statement made from ignorance.

I mean this is literally an AP feat as well.

It isn't, it's a hax fusionism feat.

If his energy can mess with the present timeline itself, it does scale.

You keep saying it "messes with it", while ignoring how it does so. Context matters.

It's not just about the sensing, we are literally told the context of what's happening by beings who do not have context.

So... They're full of it? Like what do you want me to say here? That's an oxymoron?
They can't tell you the context if they don't have the context. They can sense something is up, but they don't know how or why.
We, the viewer, do, it's fusionism and becoming one with it, that's it.

I literally sent all the proof I needed to make the claims. I'm not extrapolating anything. Based on what we are literally told, it would be AP.

You're self sabotaging your own argument.
Beerus and Whis don't know how or why it's happening, they don't even really say what you're saying to begin with. You're extrapolating what they mean when what they mean isn't elaborated upon because they can't.

I feel like I really do so you understand the context.

Context characters don't have right?

Well when I say passive, I mean it's just the lingering Ki just from Zamasu existing.

Yeah when you say, I don't want to hear you say it though, I want the actual source material to say it.
They don't, you're extrapolating, and in context doesn't even make sense to extrapolate it to mean that because we know for a fact it isn't passive, he's taking deliberate action.

Right..so he scales to it. You don't just merge with an infinitely more complex structure with your pure energy and just not scale to it.

Except when you do? All he would get is durability and HDE by default, AP, well unfortunate as it might be, he LITERALLY has no means to use his size offensively.
This isn't up for debate, he simply can't.

And stop saying "pure energy", as if that's a shorthand for ki, me and you both know that he did that using some abstract nonsense unique to him, it isn't a conventional situation.

It means Zamasu would need the power to pull something like this off.

Or hax.
Because it's hax.
And the only reason it was possible, is because of hax.

He became an astral form, but it's still not possible for this not to scale since if you don't even have the energy to BEGIN doing this.

Yeah you can?
He did it by fusing, that's it, that's legitimately it. He didn't use his energy to alter the world, he simply fused with the world.
What's being applied here is energy, if you want to keep calling that, in a form of hax, unique to him due to extreme circumstances, and that's that.
A character can have smurf hax, that's why we call it smurf hax, you haven't proved the dozen other things you need to prove to say it scales to AP, and size is most certainly not an argument as his size has nothing to do with that ki, energy, or whatever conflation we want to go with here, and he can't use said size offensively anyhow.

Zamasu breached the timeline with pure power and existence.

Oh no he didn't, stop that.
Actually, they don't explain WHY he did it, you're making an assumption there, and you also self sabotaged, "and existence", so not actually via pure power but with an external factor?
And range isn't AP anyway, having dimensional travel, even low 1-C dimensional travel, has nothing to do with AP. We aren't going to give the Time Machine or time Ring low 1-C AP for having range and hax are we?
Especially given IZ blatantly does so in a similar manner to them as they direct draw parallels to it in the very scene IZ does it.

Think of it like this. Multiple dragon ball characters were able to just break spacetime, and breach into other ones with Raw ki alone (like gotenks for example). So it is their actual energy doing things like this. It wouldn't be any different from Zamasu.

Yes it would because they're flat out stated that's how they did.
IZ on the other hand, is actually shown and drawn parallels with the Time Ring/Time Machine when he does his version, and it's even animated the same way, if anything, that tells us it's not power based, but rather ability based or even exploitation based.

You're making an association and false analogy. We have other examples of dimensional travel and what not in DB that has nothing to do with AP too, you're cherry picking a particular example and pesuming because that is true, this must be how it happened here too, that's simply an unfounded assumption, which you need to prove as well.

If he can breach the hypertimeline after merging with it, and start merging with other ones, I feel like this is as blatant as it can get.

Not when you need to assume a dozen things first to even start making that conclusion from the get-go.

I know he's abstract, but It's still Zamasu's energy. Clearly it's not just his Ki.

Aaaaaaaaand we're done here, if it isn't just his ki and has external factors, then you can't be arguing it's all power, or this or that.

It's literally all of his new form. But Ki is still Ki. Not sure what's misleading about all that. I did already mention what Zamasu did and what he became, so I don't see a problem here.

The problem is the egregious amount of guesswork involved, the fact you need to conclude multiple facets as true when said facets themselves are vague and you need to presume them too.
Framing it as a display of power and ki, when it's a cocktail of various external factors that come together to enable it, a vast majority of which is hax or special conditions that has nothing to do with AP.
And then using vague statements from, by your own admission, ignorant characters, to frame it as a display of power, when even if they weren't ignorant, wouldn't actually entail what you're suggesting.

What do you mean "damaging" the timeline here? That's pretty vague.

Yep, vague, which is why YOU need to prove all of this or it ain't happening.

Corrupting and Fusing with it can be just as damaging.

No? Fusing with it, is all he's doing, that's it. He isn't "damaging it", that doesn't even make sense, he'd be damaging himself if that were the case, because he IS that now?

He's literally harming the timeline with his presence, that's the whole point of him lmao.

No, the whole point is he became an abstract form of his own ideal and due to lacking a physical vessel his will began fusing with the world itself because he's so far up his own ass he's probably choking on it.
The only harm he's actually doing, is not he "harm" we want when it comes to AP lad.

He doesn't need to destroy something to scale to it at all.

No but he DOES need to show said AP in a tangible explicit way.
He hasn't.

He's causing harm to the timeline by turning it into something it wasn't supposed to be.

He isn't turning it into anything, he's fusing with it. Your claim isn't actually what happened.

Saying it's "nothing but fusionism" or "smurf fusionism" is definitely the misleading part, maybe even a bit dishonest.

Nope, in fact that's strictly all it is until proven otherwise.

Though I don't quite appreciate the accusations of dishonesty simply for having problems with your vague and self fulfilling presumptions.
You're already conceded it isn't actually power alone or ki alone in this very post, like, thrice.

They can feel Zamasu yes, and then the statement that the energy, or whatever is going on is effecting time. Their statements would have value.

Yes but HOW is he effecting time? That. is because he's fusing with it. They don't know how or why or what's happening, They just go "hmmmmm time is off?" and "hmmmmmmmmmm we can feel that mf zamasu?????", and that's it.
We, the audience, know what is happening though, he's affecting it because he's attempting to fuse with it.

And the statement literally lines up to what's happening so it's not like Beerus is unreliable in this instance.

He isn't unreliable if you simply take what he's saying at face value, but you're not, you're extrapolating it to mean something it isn't with added benefits, he never actually says or claims, and things he couldn't claim even if he wanted to because he himself lacks the context required to know the specifications of what's happening.

He's also not correct by Whis.

Bro he doesn't know either.

Like I said, in fact, it was so urgent that they raced over to earth to see if they could get more information as to what was happening.

That's a BAD thing, it means neither knew what was going on.

Which means it's not a localized threat. Why would Beerus just say something like that for absolutely zero reason? Is Beerus just talking out of his ass here? Has no idea what he's talking about? Talking to talk?

Yes actually, you literally proved and even admitted it. He IS talking out his ass, he DOES have no idea what he's talking about which is WHY as you just said he RACED over to Earth to get INFORMATION so he WOULDN'T be doing exactly that. As one can tell by the bolding of said words for highlight, this is very much not what you want as a sort of "gotcha" evidence.

All that Beerus scene tells us, is that IZ can be felt, and time is effected in a way they don't elaborate upon. But thankfully, we do have that context, it's because he's trying to fuse with it so his energy can obviously be felt.

I'm not skipping any details. I literally outlined everything that was happening when I wrote this thing.

Agree to disagree then because from where I'm standing you're excluding a bunch of caveats and details and making preconceived conclusions without the required evidence.

You don't get to tell me that I'm skipping a ton of steps when I went over legit everything.

I can, and will, because that's what's happening. Maybe not intentionally, but all the same.

The problem, is that you're bringing up irrelevant things that don't actually effect the scaling.

You're right, it effects the very feat itself, which is far more important.

He can have fusionism, range, and immortality. Absolutely none of it stops Zamasu scaling as you claim it does.

It doesn't stop it on its own, but it does stop it when that's all that went into it.
You're assuming by default it includes these other facets, when it's on you to prove it, not me to prove it didn't.

You say It's nothing but fusionism, I simply disagree.

You don't get to disagree, the burden of proof is on you. You need to PROVE all this 100%, you haven't. You just say it is, and post a scene that's vague and doesn't actually say what you're saying it does, and expect us to believe that? Nah dude, needs a bit more substance.

That is an extremely weird and watered down version of what's happening.

My brother in Christ, you've said multiple times it's done via pure power and this and that and I'm who's watering it down?
I'm like the only person here who's actually taking into account strictly what we know to be true.

Both can be the case. I mean it literally is. By becoming Infinite Zamasu, it also gave him more abilities. I mean it's just natural.

"It's just natural", isn't an argument, ever.
He got abilities yeah, and, that's it, he gets what he's shown, nothing more, nothing less, that's how it works with EVERYTHING on this wiki.
Him getting weird wacky abilities because of the extreme situation and circumstances, has absolutely nothing to do with his offensive output.
And in fact, the fact he's randomly getting more abilities is an issue in and of itself, why should we assume its power based instead of ability based, like the show actively suggests it is anyhow?

I can literally say the same for you, but instead of "skipping steps" you're underestimating and misinterpreting how all this gives him a rating in accordance

So, me, someone who isn't skipping steps, is "underestimating and misinterpreting"?

Don't use "underestimating" as an argument, that sounds extremely suspect ngl, makes it sound like this is a power agenda thing, not a "it's right" thing.

And misinterpretation? Isn't it odd how that's even possible? If it's vague enough for thee to be multiple interpretations, we have a huge problem. You don't rate characters based on stuff that is vague or can be interrelated like this, and when there's legit a dozen ways to go about this, and it's only one specific way that leads to your conclusion, that's bad.

I can only work off what is actually fact.
No offense but whether you or a dozen people "say it is", doesn't matter to me, what matters is what's actually stated in the material, and most of your argument isn't, it's extrapolated and preconceived conclusions.
No more valid as any of the alternatives.

Also again if he can't use said size offensively he don't get a rating anyway.

with the standards and power system.

The standards that is case-by-case and in fact we usually don't do this?

More like verbatim statements lol.

A bunch of statements that don't say what you're suggesting, isn't proof of what you're suggesting.

I used all the statements and showings we were given to arrive at a conclusion.

If that's ALL of them like you say, then we have a huge problem here because that isn't even remotely enough to pass what you want us to accept.

You're asking for way more that is necessary.

I'm asking for the bare minimum.
Proof, not guesswork, not extrapolation, not preconceived notions, but actual solid evidence.

Don't forget if you want to talk about precedence, tier 1 needs far more proof compared to any other tier, the fact I'm only asking for evidence I'd expect from anything else is lenient as it is tbh, if anything I should be asking for a direct statement worded exactly as would be needed.

When all you need is shown on screen.

We are shown he fuses with space-time to some degree, breaches the past through unknown means but almost certainly hax or ability based given the anime actually points out a direct similarity to an ability based traversal, yeah nuh uh. We ain't being shown what you're telling us is happening.

You also said he'd scale to durability via his size alone.

Yep but now I'm wondering if he even did it to begin with.

The problem is that his Ki still encompasses his size.

Multi Location. Also stop. This is grasping, ignoring how I'm not even sure he's fused with the hyper timeline anymore, me and you both know ki doesn't work like that, and we DON'T know if his ki was even fused with the higher D aspect in a meaningful way anyway, in fact, there it is again, CONFLATION.
It isn't just ki, in fact it might not even be ki at all, but rather the abstract form he took.

He's literally fused with the fabric of time along with the energy. Why would only his durability scale and not the AP?

Because why would it? We don't scale stats to each other without reason.
His durability scales ONLY because he is now that thing, and to destroy said thing, you need, well, to destroy said thing so that's what's needed to kill him.

That's extremely backwards to me and doesn't make any sense.

Having proof that something is the case is backwards when we know there's multiple things that would enable it without that extra facet, with the anime even drawing parallels to methods that didn't rely on power for what he was doing? Well, that's a personal problem.

They really don't. Multiple people pointed out some of the standards to you.

Yes, the case by case standards. And the standards that don't actually exist and we often have to actually calc said things. Or the standards that don't even apply here because IZ lacks a way to use said size.

Now, why are you ignoring the multiple people who have in turn shown that isn't the case on wiki with current profile examples even or even staff agreement outside of Viet saying not how that be?

It's even more different when you factor in higher dimensional structures as well. It'd be wildly different from like 3 dimensional structures. Since tier 2 usually includes time itself and that whole mess.

Yep, unfortunately, IZ can't use his body to attack so this is a moot point.

Just to add a bit more here in a general sense. I also already pointed out that Zamasu was able to completely traverse the space between timelines as well.

So can the time machine, so can the time ring, and hell so can Goku in base.
We NEVER give AP for entering things like that if that's what you're getting at.

We see IZ show up in the present timeline for a bit. And remember, Zamasu spreads and grows in his astral state. He doesn't have a time ring, or time machine, or any other known ways of reaching a timelines besides pure existence and power.

Except he actually has a bunch of abilities, and you could easily argue that it's a manner of his new existence, or he exploited a time warp (probably the case tbh, given they straight up mention the similarity).

You saying it's power, is not the same as the actual media saying it's power. I don't want your statement, I want THEIR statement. Anyone can argue anything if they truly wanted, all that matters is the source itself.

Also by prefacing "power" with "existence", you show it's not a simple display of power and has caveats.

We know that you have to actually traverse this space between timelines when traveling them. It means it wasn't just some portal power that allows him to go anywhere he wants, It's literally just Zamasu himself. If he can do that without like any special means, then It's a big deal.

Well, lucky then because it has about a dozen special means?
What am I supposed to even say to this, he's the last character you want to use an example here.

Also, nope, that's just range. Just like the Time Ring, Time Machine, and more even. You also don't get AP for feats like that too so it's not even a factor.
Shit would be like give a human some sort of AP for entering a higher D world or whatever like the Distortion World or something, we don't do that, it's basically the same reason as to why we don't give infinite speed for moving in voids anymore either, simply moving in a place, doesn't inherently effect stats.

And back to the durability thing. Even if it did only scale to durability, why wouldn't this just place beings like Jiren above post PT Zamasu anyway?

Idk, you'd need to prove it? Why does this matter?
I'm arguing that IZ's AP don't scale, when did I ever mention Jiren?
Why are you assuming I'd have a problem with Jiren scaling if you can prove he can kill IZ?

Dude is literally the strongest foe they have ever faced. Has the strongest energy, can shake Gods themselves.

Yep that is true, and?

And again, it would be really weird for this energy of this Low 1-C Zamasu body to not be recognized in full by people who have sensed him.

I mean it'd be a lil weird for Jiren to be called the strongest while Zeno is right there too but shrug.
You're also conflating again, IZ's energy and the energy they use to attack is not the same thing, in fact from now on, I would appreciate it we actually begin differentiating them because just callin everything energy is misleading.

If he's fused with a Low 1-C construct, his it's still his energy.

Now prove that energy randomly got boosted to Low 1-C instead of being some sort of abstract ***** going on.
Prove he can use it offensively because we both know, by your own admission even, that energy wasn't simply ki to begin with so not the same as how others and even he himself fights with.
Prove it isn't just hax.

Characters sensing this energy before and sensing even stronger energies and showing stronger reactions just implies later foes have surpassed Zamasu in full later.

Actually isn't that a circular logic? IF the characters can sense his "energy fused with this HDE thing", would that not directly mean they have Low 1-C sensing? And if they have Low 1-C sensing, how do we know IZ even did that or did it in a meaningful way because someone like say, Beerus, could sense him before he encroached fully if his sensing is THAT good? We would need an extra piece of evidence as your evidence acts as a counterpoint to itself.

Unless you think IZ everyone? It doesn't add up at all.

I think what we're shown, nothing more, nothing less.
If i were to do what you're doing, I'd be listing off the dozen alternatives and claiming them as fact and solid, and in fact we should be downgrading him based on those equally valid interpretations.

You'd need to come with substantial proof to back up that claim.

This ain't how this shit works, YOU'RE claiming it's power based, you're ignoring all the caveats, you're making these assumptions to get a conclusion, YOU need substantial proof to back your claim, especially for tier 1 by wiki rules, actually hell give me a bit to dig up said rule, I know for a fact we have it somewhere.

There's no reason why someone like Jiren wouldn't be able to damage Zamasu's Low 1-C durability after Post PT appearance.

Actually, there is, it's called you need proof?
What's up with this vibe scaling? Like I ain't even saying he can't (Except I am now because now I want proof he fused with the actual hyper timeline, explicit hard stated proof even), but you STILL need to prove it even if you think it's "obvious" because we have to INDEX it for people who aren't in the know too.

 

[IvarUHQ]

So far Chariot does seem to be making the most sense to me here.

So for you, a person who refutes without any empirical evidence means nothing at all, does it make any sense? Until proven otherwise, there is nothing empirical in Chariot's claims; he only asks for evidence while the assertion is made on his side. Logically, the burden of proof has been on him for a while. Otherwise, there is no concrete refutation apart from some criticism that is not solidly constructed. With all due respect, I feel like you are a person who follows blindly. As long as Dragon Ball is refuted, you follow the delusion.

 

[IvarUHQ]

So far Chariot does seem to be making the most sense to me here.

Moreover, you are an administrator. Instead of relying on someone's opinion to hide your incompetence, I suggest you read the thread and provide an honest opinion not based on a person. I feel, without meaning to be disrespectful, that you personally couldn't care less.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

What are you on about???