- 16,973
- 12,951
What needs to be said
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Infinite Zamasu: A dreadful upgrade
- Thread starter TiltedFN
- Start date
- Status
- 19,754
- 21,280
Burden of proof is on you... Man have we legit lost how CRT's are meant to go?
Yep, he does, that's actually a bad thing when you're arguing his ki is HDE now, prove it scales.
Prove it scales.
It quite literally doesn't, it isn't immeasurable speed, so strike one, it has a 3D physical form, strike two.
So the basi of the the ki energy must scale to his new form, doesn't work, it's shown identical to how it was before, and never stated to increase.
If it was scaling to the hyper timeline and grew proportionally due that fusing, it would not behave the exact same way it always had.
You need to prove this.
Yep, and?
Good question, whatever the abstract idea of his justice is I guess?
Don't know, don't care, it's different, how is it different? Who knows, that's on you to figure out, not me.
I'm confident in the fact we can't be confident about it. Your claims, are conjecture.
Extrapolation, you prove it or you don't, I'm not here to argue why guesswork is wrong, it's guesswork, I don't have to.
I am speaking in terms that people can easily understand given the basis of hypertime and what not.
My point stays the same regardless of playing semantics.
He can't use his size of construct nature offensively, his ki blatantly didn't change when he fused with it, so give direct proof he scales, and also prove he fused with the hypertime to begin with.
Yes it can, but it can't have the level of AP you're suggesting it would have, based on the fusing, without direct proof, because the evidence we do have suggests nothing changed at all.
You're using the conclusion as evidence, when you need to prove that conclusion to begin with.
Unfortunately I disagree, you need to prove it to be the case.
You need to PROVE it, why can't he? I never said he couldn't, but you need to prove it.
Which is to say, his ki wouldn't have changed right? So why is your argument his ki changed with fusionism? If you acknowledge that the ki didn't change between MZ and IZ, then to claim it did because he became this thing defeats itself.
Also, MZ couldn't breach the timelines himself normally, so if his ki stayed the same between IZ and MZ, which you seem to think might be a point, and if MZ couldn't do that himself prior, then the very fact MZ could do this, would be due to an external factor outside of his ki, ie, power...
This also then tuns into circular reasoning...
No he doesn't, he embodies funny abstract ideals and justice, he retains his ki sure, but there's two different facets working on here.
Your only argument is that "he fused with this thing, so his ki scales to said thing", we see straight up his ki didn't alter offensively, it stayed the same so no, it didn't change, we know for a fact Whis sensing it isn't due to your initial claims, he sensed it because a portal opened up, so of course he would, so what, exactly is scaling here?
Except, it hasn't been, you just keep asserting your preconceived stance as fact, saying it must be one or or another, but without actually giving proof for why it's that way. It's extrapolation, end of, you show the proof, or there's nothing to argue. I don't want you to explain it, I want the actual source material to explain it, because from where I stand, any explanation given is subjected to extreme amounts of conjecture.
Yes I can because that's what they say, what they show, and you talk about means to do it?
NOBODY ELSE can do what he did either even if they're stronger?
We already know what a power breach looks like on a large scale, explicitly due to power, it looks like what Gogeta and Broly did, that is utterly incomparable to what Zamasu did. So it definitely isn't this simple power thing you're making it out to be, so what IS the means he did it again?
Here, we have the actual abstract god with a bunch of hax he just pulled out nowhere, making a portal, compared to a time warp, compared to a hax/range method used 17 episodes ago directly, with it even looking visually the same.
You by yourself admitted he gained a bunch of new hax too, why the backpedaling?
No, it wasn't. What was said something happened in the future, it is affecting the past. How though? Beerus by your own admission has no idea what is going on, and they never say to what extent, they never say how, and oddly enough, Beerus DOESN'T say his energy is effecting the past at all, his line doesn't have that word in it.
You say he breached it? How. You need to prove how he did it, you haven't.
It doesn't even say time, it just says the present.
Is he even talking about time? Or is he talking about the merely events and actions?
Like "oh shit something happened in the future, i can feel him, it's gonna effect us too", but like in what way?
Because again, he doesn't know, and him sensing Zamasu is simply because of a rift, it isn't like his energy has began fusing with the past yet, we know tis because Zeno didn't have to nuke the past either to kill him.
It's the least meaningful way known to man.
We know he didn't actually do anything to it beyond open a portal.
Beerus' statement is made without full knowledge and simply stated under the premise he can feel him in the past somehow (Due to said portal).
We know he didn't do anything of note as once killed, the past is completely fine, unchanged, and even in real time it's fine beyond that lil rift so "meaningful" is anything but the case.
He didn't fuse with it because if he did, Zeno would have had to nuke the past to in order to kill him, as he'd be fused, or at least some aspect of him, would be apart of the past so he would live.
And when what we know that his "Effecting" is fusing with the thing, and we know that didn't happen, Beerus' statement is anything but this crux, and is almost certainly made under the notion that he can simply feel him in the past for some reason, which we know the reason.
Bro they legit said basically nothing.
"I can sense bro (from a portal)"
"hmm he didnt die/sealed, something mustve happened, shit affecting us now but idk how or why i can simply just sense him here in the past for some reason"
Ok.
Have we really lost the plot here? You need to prove everything without a doubt. No maybes, no conjecture, no extrapolation, the fact there's so many variables and your entire argument hinges on multiple maybes, doesn't mean I'm in the wrong, that isn't how this wiki works, you make CRT, you give solid concrete proof, you haven't. It isn't on anyone else to argue for you.
Where is the statement that says "yep, he is doing it with his raw power"?
Look man I ain't the studio who decided the order of events and threw a few lines that cast doubt on your whole premise, that's not on me.
Though, again, so are yours, and we ain't upgrading anyone based on guesswork.
Do not strawman me.
There being multiple forms of energy (there is) doesn't mean multiple forms of ki.
His ki does scale to his AP, it's his ONLY AP he has, the problem, is that you haven't proven his AP in the first place, it's all
Yep you gotta prove it. Your only proof is that a portal opened because (we dont actually know why so prove that too), and other characters can effect space-time to some degree...
Well, there's the fact it's directly compared to this thing that does it with hax and not power, so that's already more concrete compared to saying it was power.
We already know he has a slew of wacky hax abilities like uh, fusing with the world itself? Which you, yourself, have conceded he gained a bunch of hax, so to say it isn't hax is off the table by your own admission so don't backpedal now.
Honestly I could go on but it would seem you people have issues with being told the same thing again and again, so, to cut it short, burden of proof is on you, I can not stress this enough, you don't get to assume things here, you don't get to guess, you need concrete evidence, you need to prove 100% why various things happened, a semi educated guess isn't that, it means nothing in the end, no more valid than anything I've said because it isn't fact, it's conjecture. So either find direct statements, go dig up guides, I honestly don't care where you find it, bu you need proof that's canon to this and you ain't giving it.
I did, there's plenty of ways, I listed a few off even, are they concrete? Nope, is that bad? Yes actually because this whole feat is vague and open ended and open to interpretation and you can't say, hell by your own admission actually have admitted the stance is mostly conjecture on your end too, rate or assume how it happened if we don't know and there's a bunch of alternatives.
And his method is directly compared to them, actively appears where we know a time warp is located, looks like a time warp even, and yet somehow pure power is the more logical laim?
He also doesn't have an inherent ability to fuse with reality, but yet here we are?
Even his power wouldn't have the ability to do that, explicitly, it's why he needed the time ring.
But a 3D time machine and ring does? Why?
Why can't the dude actively fusing with the world, far more integrated into it than a time machine even, who has full knowledge on these things, has utilized it before even, using his very much not standard capabilities, do the same? All while it's directly compared to said example to that should be the direct point of comparison to begin with?
Oh, ok, so thread closed I guess, he can't be fusing with it either, he has no inherent ability to do so.
How? He doesn't have that inherent ability? Do you not see the problem with that argumentation.
Also your take.
Again, this is the issue you people aren't coming to terms with, there shouldn't be a "take", it should either be the case, or not.
Actually, is it even?
It's an explanation sure, but is it the only one? Nope. And legit ong, even if that were the case it wouldn't be AP, because that just means the only reason he could have done it, is physiology based, ie, still hax based...
And as we've established, he can't use his own body offensively, his ki very much didn't change as he fused as we see that directly, so forth and so on.
And hell, mentioned it earlier in the post, but MZ couldn't breach the timelines himself normally, so if his ki stayed the same between IZ and MZ, and if MZ couldn't do that himself prior, then the very fact MZ could do this, would be due to an external factor outside of his ki, ie, power, which we know basically didn't change based on his showings in that same scene as he did the alleged thing, as he did it even, so no matter what interpretation we go with, we all but know it wasn't AP based.
Mayhaps for the best.
Last edited:
TheTenno07
He/Him- 548
- 318
Please guys, no more comments after this 
CelestialVortex01
He/Him- 728
- 1,157
Alright chat, it's been fun and games and all but seriously let's stop with the deraling this isn't a general discussion thread after all, the last 3 pages were literally full of EVERYTHING but on topic debating, so I kindly ask y'all to stop clogging the thread until Qaw is back.
- 14,196
- 7,436
Bro, can you give your opinion on this crt?
Demon_Lord18
He/Him- 2,890
- 1,375
We want
- 21,556
- 36,194
Honestly all chariot has asked for is for proof I don't see why that's so hard for people to give, yall have any actual hard evidence of proof to support the shit being said because right now I'm leaning to chariots side here. All this arguing and not one bit of evidence has been sent that was asked for
TheTenno07
He/Him- 548
- 318
Just for the record... what proves is he asking for specifically?
- 19,754
- 21,280
Proof it's power based, proof on how he made the portal, proof he encompassed the hypertimeline, proof his ki scales to his size despite direct counter evidence in that very scene, proof Beerus' statement that's a bit out of context and said without context from his own pov means like, literally anything at all, proof dudes, well honestly there's so much shit that needs to be proven that we'd be here all day if I asked for it, which is probably why we've been here all day.
All I've been given, is guesswork, or extrapolation, like semi educated guesses that MIGHT be true, but also might not be and that ain't good enough, and then given the compromise of "we don't know, so let's do it as possibly", as if that's how things work. Kind of bad when the opps even saying they don't have concrete proof so settle for possibly.
- 22,797
- 23,689
I was gone for a day and a half what happened here? All DB threads spiral exponentially, I feel like.
So reading through four new pages of stuff this is ultimately my final conclusion on it:
- Dragon Ball is one of the most basic UES on the site. People fusing with stuff, even planets like with Moro, have always given them increased power or similar levels of power to what they absorbed. Zamasu fusing with a timeline would increase his power because he would get access to the energy that makes everything up
- The hyper timeline of Dragon Ball involves fusing with all the various Macrocosms and the void separating them. In my view, considering what we know of Zamasu's plan and the damage inflicted by Zeno, by the end point of the fusion he likely infected all of Super Trunk's timeline, which is a contributing factor as to why Zeno erased everything.
- Zamasu breaching into the main timeline is in the interdimensional range as mentioned, for the same reason SSB Gogeta and Broly have interdimensional range. On its own, it is not a Low 1-C feat but it is evidence of greater power.
- While initially unmentioned by accident, this isn't just a Zamasu upgrade; this is upgrading multiple characters to Low 1-C despite that being a feat only displayed by Zeno and an abstract cosmological being
- I disagree with the initial assumption by the OP that Zamasu instantly upgraded to Low 1-C, because that's nonsensical from a scaling perspective and just doesn't work when we see Zamasu's range increase over time
- The counter proposal of Merged Zamasu being Low 1-C also doesn't sit with me since like.... that causes even worse scaling problems in my mind
- Super Shenron is stronger than a GoD, but nothing currently supports it being stronger than Zeno. So I'm unsure if it would really scale to a Low 1-C rating just by being powerful
- IZ didn't start as Low 1-C, he started as 2-C and then began to merge with everything. So his tier should still be "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C" or something along those line
- The scaling to IZ is being argued as Jiren, who is being argued as being stronger than everyone else fought so far, and surpassing a GoD. But by the same notion, we're also arguing that Broly/DBSH era characters like Goku and Vegeta are still inferior to Beerus. While Beerus is the strongest GoD, it feels weird to say that Jiren can surpass him when future stronger people that Jiren fought still can't surpass Beerus
- Having said all that, despite me really not liking it because I feel like it doesn't work, there's nothing saying that IZ is some time of eldritch mega being beyond the scope of everything before or after. Jiren and Super Hero villains are noted as being more powerful than previous threats with no inclination that Zamasu is a special case.
Path 1 - Probably closer to our standards - We upscale from Zamasu:
- IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
- Future anime that scale above Zamasu's max output (like Jiren, SSB Gogeta, etc): "Low 1-C" or "2-C, likely Low 1-C"
- Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast
- IZ: "2-C, eventually Low 1-C" or "2-C, up to Low 1-C"
- Characters equal to or stronger than SSB Gogeta and Full Powered Super Saiyan Broly: "Low 1-C"
- Zeno: Above baseline Low 1-C by an amount larger than any of the cast
Personally speaking, I still think the Low 1-C upscaling is stupid, because we're now going to say that cop Krillin has somehow worked out enough to kill Jiren by flexing in his direction. I'm fine with either option, but Path 1 ultimately has more supplementary evidence supporting it, while Path 2 is more vibe-based to avoid weaker people from being classified as Low 1-C.
- 21,556
- 36,194
Proof of output for IZ basically
- 3,561
- 5,181
- Thread starter
- #254
I think option 1 is best here. "2-C, up to Low 1-C". Thanks for the response. I will add that the anime is much different than the Manga when it comes to scaling. At least in regards to beerus.
- 3,759
- 3,614
Thank you for the detailed response. I'm fine with either path. As you say the first option has more evidence but I wouldn't protest the second option if that is what is decided upon.
CelestialVortex01
He/Him- 728
- 1,157
Option one FRA
TheTenno07
He/Him- 548
- 318
Option one fra
- 597
- 353
I don't find it very logical that this is considered illogical by saying "because it doesn't make sense" because this is Dragon Ball. It is the Ancestor of Powerscale, and it's not impossible for it to have such a weird power system which makes krillin that powerful
- 22,797
- 23,689
- 14,196
- 7,436
Option one fra, i also don't want Kuririn to scale with this and other weaker characters.
- 22,797
- 23,689
Manga Infinite Zamasu is just like 400 green dudes running around with energy razor blades and therefore doesn't cause an insane degree of upscaling.
- 3,561
- 5,181
- Thread starter
- #263
Oh yeah for sure, I meant like in regards to Beerus scaling, just the overall scaling chain.
- 597
- 353
like the ben10 scalers says, why not
- 19,754
- 21,280
Based on what though? They don't say that, they don't show that either?
He's doing it in a non-conventional way so it isn't like Moro who very explicitly does that with all energy forms to bolster his power, that's not quite the same thing, and we even see him attack offensively with his very ki while simultaneously doing his "breach feat", and his output is the exact same as it was before, it didn't change, you could probably even argue it's weaker than Merged Zamasu given characters weaker than MZ can now deflect and hold it back when they couldn't prior (so it's probably just Zamasu's strength tbh given Black is dead), who lacked the capability to move into the past very explicitly under his own power anyhow, implicating that IZ's method of doing so isn't inherently power based as well, and given the comparisons and yadda yadda...
It would have to be the case, given IZ's very own ki attacks like
Ya know, aren't any stronger in the slightest?
Mayhaps, but being more powerful than a character who's power didn't change by any meaningful degree upon using his fusionism, doesn't mean they scale that high either.
The only argument here would be arguing they can kill him so they scale because IZ's durability would at least be that high, not that they're stronger so they scale as the proof of his strength changing isn't even supported in the single scene we get of him actively attacking.
- 34,600
- 35,046
Outliers are outliers because they're irreconcilably inconsistent with the normal state of things. Characters getting stronger from arc to arc is one thing; someone like Krillin getting infinitely stronger than Jiren is in a different ballpark to that.
- 5,570
- 4,931
Only 7 pages - damn this is moving fast for DB.
- 14,196
- 7,436
So you agree and the only thing you disagree with is characters like Kuririn climbing through this?
- 3,759
- 3,614
Waffles and pancakes.
- 3,561
- 5,181
- Thread starter
- #270
No he didn't say that. He's just explaining to you some of his problems with krillin being this strong. Stop putting words into his mouth or assuming what he's thinking.
- 1,011
- 549
I agree with option 1, as I think this is most reasonable logical way to view it as.
- 34,600
- 35,046
Thank you.
I don't have a definitive vote yet; earlier I just said that Chariot was making sense to me, not that I was voting against the thread.
- 22,797
- 23,689
By fusing with the timeline
Fusing with an entire structure while still being sentient has always been treated as a higher-dimensional AP feat to the best of my knowledge. Some examples that spring to mind:
- Fudo from Samurai 8 is treated as Low 2-C after fusing with the universe
- Spawn and the Mother of Existence are 1-C for being one with the cosmology
- The Wild form the Princess is Low 2-C to 2-A for merging with existence
That's what I mean. It causes even more issues if the argument is that Merged Zamasu is Low 1-C.
I'm under the thought that Zamasu's peak power is Low 1-C since he would've merged with all of existence, which we treat as a Low 1-C feat.
Now them deflecting beams is a bad anti-feat, but that wouldn't prevent Zamasu from eventually reaching that level of power, though I guess that makes scaling harder to figure out.
- 3,759
- 3,614
It is worth noting that at that point Goku and Vegeta were basically defeated in their base forms. Even an unfused Zamasu could have easily killed either of them, as he scales to their Super Saiyan states. It's less an antifeat and more like PIS or Zamasu was having fun toying with them.
- 3,561
- 5,181
- Thread starter
- #275
It really isn't an anti feat to be honest since Goku and Vegeta we're able to take beatings over and over again from Merged Zamasu despite him being much much stronger. Trunks, Goku, and Vegeta weren't able to do a thing to IZ or hold his energy back either way. That doesn't put them above or even relative to IZ since we don't have proof they actually scale above him. Same thing with barriers. Weaker characters have blocked way stronger attacks than what their strength is capable of.
Edit: They didn't even actually deflect anything. Still got overpowered either way. Goku only notes that he might have been able to at least TRY to beat Zamasu. Nowhere did he say he was sure he could win at any point. So keep that in mind.
- 3,759
- 3,614
You're just too slow Barry. Much too slow.
- 7,376
- 2,919
Yeah but this implies he stands a chance. Since he could hypothetically try it without, and still lose, but is regardless making such a distinction
- 22,797
- 23,689
It is, because they'd literally be infinitely weaker than Zamasu.
- 19,754
- 21,280
That would grant durability but Zamasu at no point uses that in any meaningful way for AP or offensive output, and in fact, actively contradicts that notion himself.
And mind you, Zamasu is not Moro, Moro is a funny wizard man who as his whole gimmick akes in the energy of other things to bolster his own power, his fusing with something is not the same as Zamasu's.
Except they can actually use that to attack or have feat, no?
The only method Zamasu has, is ki attacks, which are shown straight up, do not and did not, change in the slightest upon fusing. He can't use his body or size to attack, his ki didn't change or get stronger, it's mostly durability because to kill him you need to kill the timeline him, in regards to AP there's nothing to actually work with.
Well, that's what would have to be the case no? We'd just be hiding the, well **** it I don't like saying this, but hiding the outlier yeah? Assuming it even is an outlier, fact is it's just as, if not more likely, his AP didn't actually change.
IZ while merged, 1 second before showing the fact he "breached over", (and has in fact been longer as the squad is already mid-reaction when it shows them, and there isn't a time cut either, because the end of that scene is Goku and lads getting out of the dirt, it's all real time), fires off very blatantly not HDE ki attacks, weaker than MZ's, blocked by characters weaker than MZ, and yet we're supposed to say his ki attacks got infinity times stronger?
The only evidence we actually have says the opposite, if anything they're weaker than they were as MZ (Makes sense tbh, the Goku Black aspect of him died, it's just base Zamasu now), and yet we know MZ and even the stronger Goku Black couldn't reach the past through raw power, because it's made a plot point they can't and used the Time Ring (A fact that IZ's own crossing over is compared to even, something no studio would draw connection to if it wasn't intentional).
So why is it we're saying IZ's ki attacks got infinity times stronger, when his actual feats show he's probably actually weaker, and then saying the breach is an aspect of power, when the context suggests it isn't and an even stronger version of him could not replicate such a thing, as opposed to something to do with the extreme circumstances of what's happening to begin with or even his new physiology?
Do we though? Smurf hax is a thing, HDE is a thing even
Sure he gets HDE and durability, but that says nothing about AP unless he has the showings and statements to back it up, like, it isn't as if he can kick and punch in that state so the actual "construct" portion of the scaling route isn't an option, and the ki attacks well... See above.
Bro... It's happening at the same time as he merged. That clip isn't edited or cut, I grabbed that straight from the raw episode I downloaded off nyaa, it's the straight scene, as he's shooting these beams and they're tanking and deflecting them, it immediately cuts to the past and he's already there.
I simply do not see how it's possible to say his power increased proportionally to the fusing, for arguments sake, even if that was the default standard (it isn't it's case by case), the actual showings would actively contradict that notion and would take precedence. When coupled with the overly vague nature of several other facets, all we really have is a decent range feat for him, and I suppose durability. Now if people want to argue Jiren or whoever is confirmed to be able to kill them so they scale that's one thing, but IZ has no merit to scale in AP simply because he has HDE, dude's an extreme fringe case.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
