The Mah-vel Unfawking Thread Step Three: I Came Back with Milk

[ObberGobb]

How so? I know Monica could destroy a planet in her light form, but others have written it off as a peak feat.

I meant the spear being as heavy as a star is still 5-B

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I meant the spear being as heavy as a star is still 5-B

Ah. Of course.

 

[The_Impress]

The feats so far (let me know if any have been rejected):

Grey Hulk shatters an asteroid - High 5-A (still listing it here to see if it's an outlier)
Classic Ms. Marvel scales to Hectate burning the world - High 6-A
Super Skrull threatens the planet - 5-B
Super Skrull claims to have destroyed planets and stars - 5-B to 4-C
Thing survives robo-Phoenix throwing a moon on him - Low 5-B
Proxima Midnight carries and swings around the weight of a star - likely Low 5-B up to 5-B
Blastaar channels planet-destroying energy - 5-B
Blue Marvel could split the Moon in two - High 6-A
Black Bolt survived a multi-light year wide explosion - 4-B (if that old webarchive calc is valid)
Quasar's shields could effortlessly survive a solar flare - High 6-A
Quasar could channel the energy of a solar flare - High 6-A

Planet destruction statements aren't necessarily 5-B, and the other Super Skrull statement is explicitly 4-C, we can't cherrypick ratings from the same word bubble lol :v

Proxima's current scaling is suspect as **** imo, it scales to two characters who are honestly still decently powerful: Unworthy Thor wasn't tier 1 but that doesn't really mean he was as low as 5-B imo. Lemme see her appearances rq

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Planet destruction statements aren't necessarily 5-B, and the other Super Skrull statement is explicitly 4-C :v

Proxima's current scaling is suspect as **** imo, it scales to two characters who are honestly still decently powerful

The only vague planet statement seems to be Thor's statement about Super Skrull, where he states he fears the planet will not be able to survive his fire's strength. So anywhere from High 6-A to 5-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Thing survives robo-Phoenix throwing a moon on him - Low 5-B

Or 5-A. That seems more likely to me, if the Moon quickly accelerated from its starting position.

 

[Antvasima]

Planet destruction statements aren't necessarily 5-B, and the other Super Skrull statement is explicitly 4-C, we can't cherrypick ratings from the same word bubble lol :v

Proxima's current scaling is suspect as **** imo, it scales to two characters who are honestly still decently powerful: Unworthy Thor wasn't tier 1 but that doesn't really mean he was as low as 5-B imo. Lemme see her appearances rq

Didn't Proxima temporarily immobilise the Hulk rather than Thor with her spear?

 

[Excellence616]

Luke Cage matched Proxima before getting knocked out in the Mighty Avengers run.

Her spear could pierce Monica.

During Cates Hulk run, a casual feat was perform by some gamma amped individuals.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm not going to comment extensively right now, but I wouldn't consider the Thing tanking the fake moon nowhere near planet level.
Even if that moon is allegedly meant to be a replica of the real one (and even then it may not be on a 1:1 scale), it is portrayed as much smaller in size, the explosion itself is something like Town level-ish in range, the aftermath is absolutely not the one of a real Moon-Earth impact and, lastly, the pieces of the shattered Moon, even chunks large enough to be already curving, are definitely way too small to belong to a real moon.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understood, it was supposed to be an exact replica of Earth's Moon, so the smaller displayed size on the page was artistic license.

 

[Excellence616]

The heralds of Galactus and Beta Ray Bill have multiple moon to star level feats.

 

[SamanPatou]

As far as I understood, it was supposed to be an exact replica of Earth's Moon, so the smaller displayed size on the page was artistic license.

Unless the replica's 100% and explicitly stated to be equal in everything to the real one, I wouldn't jump right into considering the feat tier 5, out of a tier 7 blast.

Several calcs such as this have been rejected in the past for other verses (one being Asura's Wrath) due to the magnitude of the feat itself being much lower than it's supposed to be; moreover, I think we have some policies that regulate situations such as this one.

 

[That_moron2]

I'll offer any help I can with calcs

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Unless the replica's 100% and explicitly stated to be equal in everything to the real one, I wouldn't jump right into considering the feat tier 5, out of a tier 7 blast.

Several calcs such as this have been rejected in the past for other verses (one being Asura's Wrath) due to the magnitude of the feat itself being much lower than it's supposed to be; moreover, I think we have some policies that regulate situations such as this one.

Impossible man said he took years planning this to be perfect, also Ben came from outter space and didn't realize it's a fake planet so the size has to be the same. The Robot Phoenix says "The moon", the scans also don't really showcase the full size of the moon nor do we see the full explosion, the perspective is also not good to compare The thing's size to the pieces of the moon, nor is this good to compare sizes when it's clear that at the very least each of those pieces should dwarf buildings by a lot using the previous frame.

 

[The_Impress]

Didn't Proxima temporarily immobilise the Hulk rather than Thor with her spear?

Her other scaling is Unworthy Thor.

 

[Arceus0x]

Btw regarding PM spear, I'm pretty sure it'd be 4-C. People who move stars and stuff at speeds impossible to calc are usually scaled to the GBE of the object, I've seen it happen to star moving feats and such.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Still regarding the visuals vs narrative of the moon size I don't know if it applies here but I recently saw an interesting post that gave me a better understanding and might be relevant to this situation.
On X/Twitter a post from the current writer from the avengers comic run, Farid was basically given a script saying "they are fighting back to back" and she made her interpretation of that.


I even asked if it's normally like that and the artist said it was common to leave the visuals to the artist while telling them minimum details of the scene.

If this happened the same here it's very possible for Narrative and the Visuals to crash because they are different interpretations on the very same scene just like how 2 authors often contradict each other because of their interpretation.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean if we're going by that logic, you can invalidate every single explosion feat that way lol. Artists and writers usually work in tandem to each other, and we judge the final product, not what was written in a hypothetical script.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it was explicitly stated that the Moon and the Earth were supposed to be exact copies of the real deal, so the artist just wasn't capable of accurately visually representing that.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I mean if we're going by that logic, you can invalidate every single explosion feat that way lol. Artists and writers usually work in tandem to each other, and we judge the final product, not what was written in a hypothetical script.

Not what I said, my comment is about giving priority to the narrative rather than the art in cases of doubt like this one. If the narrative supports it being bigger than the art then the narrative takes priority, the same if the explosion is bigger than what the narrative suggests.

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Has the Thing's moon feat calculation blog been evaluated yet?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Has the Thing's moon feat calculation blog been evaluated yet?

No, not a single calc member

 

[SamanPatou]

I still believe we should give precedence to what's been shown into the final product, rather than what was supposed or intended to be, but was not. The comic shows us a meteor-sized moon which causes a town-sized blast, we can't pretend what's on paper is a distortion and what actually happened is for a real-size moon to have landed and caused a cataclysm on a global scale, even through it blatantly did not happen.

Also, general tips I'd like to see worked on in this thread and in the future:

Don't be so eager to scale people to Hulk, Thor and other characters whose power explicitly fluctuates depending on specific conditions (the former) or are well-renowned to hold back constantly and immensely (the latter, there's a huge list of instances on his file).

Please look also for limitations showcased by the characters, and not simply the most incredible feats they've ever performed. A good criteria imho would be to scrutinize the biggest threats, villains and events the main heroes have gone against, because often nukes are portrayed as generally lethal, and so intercontinental and planetary threats, often treated as strictly unstoppable through sheer brute force.

 

[That_moron2]

I still believe we should give precedence to what's been shown into the final product, rather than what was supposed or intended to be, but was not. The comic shows us a meteor-sized moon which causes a town-sized blast, we can't pretend what's on paper is a distortion and what actually happened is for a real-size moon to have landed and caused a cataclysm on a global scale, even through it blatantly did not happen.

Also, general tips I'd like to see worked on in this thread and in the future:

Don't be so eager to scale people to Hulk, Thor and other characters whose power explicitly fluctuates depending on specific conditions (the former) or are well-renowned to hold back constantly and immensely (the latter, there's a huge list of instances on his file).

Please look also for limitations showcased by the characters, and not simply the most incredible feats they've ever performed. A good criteria imho would be to scrutinize the biggest threats, villains and events the main heroes have gone against, because often nukes are portrayed as generally lethal, and so intercontinental and planetary threats, often treated as strictly unstoppable through sheer brute force.

I did a version measuring the moon rather than assuming its moon sized

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I still believe we should give precedence to what's been shown into the final product, rather than what was supposed or intended to be, but was not. The comic shows us a meteor-sized moon which causes a town-sized blast, we can't pretend what's on paper is a distortion and what actually happened is for a real-size moon to have landed and caused a cataclysm on a global scale, even through it blatantly did not happen.

I suppose it depends if the comic shows the replica Moon beforehand or not, then it could be determined if it's just an artistic error or not.

 

[ObberGobb]

Please look also for limitations showcased by the characters, and not simply the most incredible feats they've ever performed. A good criteria imho would be to scrutinize the biggest threats, villains and events the main heroes have gone against, because often nukes are portrayed as generally lethal, and so intercontinental and planetary threats, often treated as strictly unstoppable through sheer brute force.

Eh, I kinda disagree with this. The limitations shown by the characters are vastly out of sync with their actual feats. Like in one Thor comic he was certain Hercules would die if he fell off a skyscraper. Early Marvel comics treat destroying tanks to be an extraordinary display of power, even though in that era there were still many very high level feats.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't understand why would Pixel scaling which adds an extra margin of error should take precedent over stated sizes, not just that but the pixel scaling relies on the assumption of 100 meters skyscraper which adds another margin of error, using the narrative you get mush less margin of error.

 

[SamanPatou]

Eh, I kinda disagree with this. The limitations shown by the characters are vastly out of sync with their actual feats. Like in one Thor comic he was certain Hercules would die if he fell off a skyscraper. Early Marvel comics treat destroying tanks to be an extraordinary display of power, even though in that era there were still many very high level feats.

Well, there are peaks and bottoms, it's nothing new, but looking only at the biggest feats we can find never helped anyone. Shit like falling from buildings are clearly ludicrous examples on the opposite direction, also because comics are infamously tainted by classical trope that falling from altitudes is supposedly lethal even for characters who showcase equivalent levels of durability on a regular basis.

I feel like you took my proposal slightly out of context, because I said to check the main or most important instances, like an event villain or threat, whose narrative weight clearly surpasses a random low-level feat from a generic issue.

I don't understand why would Pixel scaling which adds an extra margin of error should take precedent over stated sizes, not just that but the pixel scaling relies on the assumption of 100 meters skyscraper which adds another margin of error, using the narrative you get mush less margin of error.

Pixel scaling may certainly be improved, but afaik there's no stated size, just the notion that the moon is allegedly an accurate replica, a statement which in itself doesn't outright say it shares the same proportions.
Also, Marvel Comics has portrayed planetary explosions, collisions and perspectives on a cosmic-scale countless of times, even in the earliest days, so let's not act like the artist wanted to convey a global cataclysm but was forced by lack of means into portraying a city-wide explosion (this supposed intent is also a conjecture as well, I have yet to see actual evidences of it).

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Pixel scaling may certainly be improved, but afaik there's no stated size, just the notion that the moon is allegedly an accurate replica, a statement which in itself doesn't outright say it shares the same proportions.

The comic lets clear it's a replica it's exacly why it's a replica that Impossible man managed to trick The Thing as well as it took him a long time to prepare everything perfectly.

Also, Marvel Comics has portrayed planetary explosions, collisions and perspectives on a cosmic-scale countless of times, even in the earliest days, so let's not act like the artist wanted to convey a global cataclysm but was forced by lack of means into portraying a city-wide explosion (this supposed intent is also a conjecture as well, I have yet to see actual evidences of it).

Marvel does often portray planetary explosions, but never with great detail, just show a planet that explodes and then small pieces of dirt going out of the panel, they don't go into details of showing the steps of what happened during the explosion. Also what do you mean by "lack of means" the writer made the script using a real moon the artist made his interpretation, it's not about lack of means it never was, it's about an artist choosing to portray using "the rule of cool" rather than attempt to make it realistic.

 

[The_Impress]

whats the comic rq

 

[That_moron2]

whats the comic rq

Marvel All-On-One

 

[The_Impress]

Yeah no reading up this is even more bullshit, it's not even set up on Earth and arguably speaking Impossible Man is even trying to kill-kill him given he wants Ben to uncover a mystery.

Bullshit on the "IT'S A CLEAR REPLICA OF THE MOON" if it's a clear replica then it's a clear replica of Dark Phoenix too with a clear replica of the Low 1-C power (he tanks attacks from 3-C and higher mfers in it)

In general this is literally a "X character fights everyone" setup that's bound to wank characters beyond showcase.

Just. Pick a lane. Jesus.

 

[That_moron2]

My calc is still on the table...

 

[The_Impress]

whats the calc

 

[That_moron2]

whats the calc

Pixel scaled it, here. I sent it to Dale iirc but it hasn't been evaluated yet

 

[The_Impress]

ill get it eval'd.

But yeah no this is bullshit, if the feat in actuality barely gets into tier 6 and its getting upped a whole tier up

 

[That_moron2]

ill get it eval'd.

Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah no reading up this is even more bullshit, it's not even set up on Earth and arguably speaking Impossible Man is even trying to kill-kill him given he wants Ben to uncover a mystery.

Bullshit on the "IT'S A CLEAR REPLICA OF THE MOON" if it's a clear replica then it's a clear replica of Dark Phoenix too with a clear replica of the Low 1-C power (he tanks attacks from 3-C and higher mfers in it)

In general this is literally a "X character fights everyone" setup that's bound to wank characters beyond showcase.

Just. Pick a lane. Jesus.

Well, there is a massive difference between an Arcade-style robot with demonstrated limited power-copying and apparent autonomy from the Impossible Man, and somehow successfully tricking The Thing, who is a trained skilled astronaut and starship pilot, with a planet Earth and Moon that do not look like the real ones.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Yeah no reading up this is even more bullshit, it's not even set up on Earth and arguably speaking Impossible Man is even trying to kill-kill him given he wants Ben to uncover a mystery.

Irrelevant, either he knows The Thing can survive a moon on his face or not he did it.

Bullshit on the "IT'S A CLEAR REPLICA OF THE MOON" if it's a clear replica then it's a clear replica of Dark Phoenix too with a clear replica of the Low 1-C power (he tanks attacks from 3-C and higher mfers in it)

He made those Robots not human, so it's clear they were not meant to be perfect replicas, Impossible Man wanted him to find out the people were robots but didn't wanted him to find out he was on another planet.

In general this is literally a "X character fights everyone" setup that's bound to wank characters beyond showcase.

So can't scale characters to each other?

 

[The_Impress]

Well, there is a massive difference between an Arcade-style robot with demonstrated limited power-copying and apparent autonomy from the Impossible Man, and somehow successfully tricking The Thing, who is a trained skilled astronaut and starship pilot, with a planet Earth and Moon that do not look like the real ones.

There isn't a panel for him to get tricked. It isn't natural dialogue to go "HAHA ROBO PHOENIX I HAVE FIGURED YOU OUT, THAT ISN'T THE REAL MOON, I KNOW STUFF IS UP"

Impossible Man literally arrives in the next panel as soon as he dusts himself off.

Irrelevant, either he knows The Thing can survive a moon on his face or not he did it.

No? It can just be a small moon. As said.

He made those Robots not human, so it's clear they were not meant to be perfect replicas, Impossible Man wanted him to find out the people were robots but didn't wanted him to find out he was on another planet.

No he LITERALLY EXCLUSIVELY WANTED THAT. Did you read the comic????

So can't scale characters to each other?

Is this your argument right now? You can't make two arguments at once. Make your choice right now. Suig I swear to God your sole objective here is tier retention and NOTHING ELSE, because you keep making evey possible bad faith argument no matter how it contradicts you to retain it.

Like, are you two actually for real right now? You are asking for a feat to be considered 100000000000 times higher than it actually is. That isn't even an exaggeration. Please, understand, if there was a feat for any other tier that had a discrepancy of 100000000000 TIMES, that would be straight up rejected on the basis of the artist and writer not knowing the impact of the feat. We rejected the CW Flash speed statement on a similar basis of being incompatible with what's shown.

I can't even ******* believe this is something that is being argued right now holy shit.