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The Fury of Warriors: Knuckles the Echidna vs Darth Marr (0-8-0)

DaReaperMan

DaReaperMan

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Bad idea time!
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Rules​

  1. Speed is Equalized
  2. Knuckles is in his Adventure 4-B key at his 30 FOE value
  3. Darth Marr is 4-B
  4. Start 5 meters away
  5. Battle takes place on clear skies outdoors on Angel Island
  6. Darth Marr has the following Prior Knowledge: Everything on both Spin Dash and Boost, and that Knuckles guards a powerful artifact
  7. Knuckles has the following Prior Knowlege: Marr's lightsaber, including it's temperature, Marr's legend, and that the force grants it's users Precognition
  8. Victory by K.O or death

Profiles and votes​

Knuckles the Echidna: 0

Darth Marr: 8

They murder Eggman together: 0
 
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DaReaperMan said:
Force Choke, probs

Knuckles does have what he needs to not get dominated.
Click to expand...
Could probably argue Knuckles being Multi-Stellar by scaling off of Classic Sonic Post-SMA

Marr does have prior knowledge on the Spin Dash and Boost, but doesn't have it on Knuckles' Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, which should be comparable to Sonic's Light-Speed Attack (gonna have to check if it's stated to increase his speed or if it just looks that way visually) Light-Speed Attack uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, but Knuckles doesn't do that and it still ends up comparable to Sonic's LSA.
 
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McFriesGuy075 said:
Could probably argue Knuckles being Multi-Stellar by scaling off of Classic Sonic Post-SMA

Marr does have prior knowledge on the Spin Dash and Boost, but doesn't have it on Knuckles' Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, which should be comparable to Sonic's Light-Speed Attack (gonna have to check if it's stated to increase his speed or if it just looks that way visually) Light-Speed Attack uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, but Knuckles doesn't do that and it still ends up comparable to Sonic's LSA.
Click to expand...
I mean, LSA makes Sonic dash at the speed of light. So like, it increases his speed if he's moving slower than light?
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
Marr does have prior knowledge on the Spin Dash and Boost, but doesn't have it on Knuckles' Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, which should be comparable to Sonic's Light-Speed Attack (gonna have to check if it's stated to increase his speed or if it just looks that way visually) Light-Speed Attack uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, but Knuckles doesn't do that and it still ends up comparable to Sonic's LSA.
Click to expand...
Oh, and, it should be noted that Knuckles can do the MHKA without the Fighting Gloves in Sonic Shuffle
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
Could probably argue Knuckles being Multi-Stellar by scaling off of Classic Sonic Post-SMA

Marr does have prior knowledge on the Spin Dash and Boost, but doesn't have it on Knuckles' Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, which should be comparable to Sonic's Light-Speed Attack (gonna have to check if it's stated to increase his speed or if it just looks that way visually) Light-Speed Attack uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, but Knuckles doesn't do that and it still ends up comparable to Sonic's LSA.
Click to expand...
That could work, Marr has the classic force user stuff of restrain in like five different ways and precog to see it coming though.
 
Biggest threat to Knux here is for sure the Force Powers and Precog, as their AP difference is insignificant enpugh that Darth Marr attacking Knux's internal organs would be effective. Darth Marr also has the advantage of Class G Lifting Strength vs Knuckles' Class M, meaning a Force Choke or any telekinetic ability will be vastly effective.

Their prior knowledge on one-another grants each one some benefits (for Marr it would give him greater awareness on Knuckles' speed amp techniques, while for Knuckles it would make him avoid doing dumb shit like touching the lightsaber and have him regard Marr with caution).

As much as I wanna root for my boy Knux, I believe this is an encounter that he is gonna have extreme difficulties with. His lower LS leaves him susceptible to Force Grabs, his AP advantage is insignificant enough that his internal organs can still be harmed by Marr, and he has no direct means of outwitting Marr through his precog except for speed-blitz moves that Marr will be mentally prepared to fight against.

Knuckles' prior knowledge on Marr will prevent him from immediately doing a bull-headed rushdown, and may even po ut him in the mindset to use more abilities than just fists, but I'm unsure that will be enough.

I suppose I'll ask a few questions before giving a vote.
  • How reliable/quick/combat-applicable is Marr's Precognition? Is it something that leaves him susceptible to attacks, or is it in a fashion where he can remain in combat while seeing future stuff?
  • I assume it would happen relatively quickly in a standoff of this nature, but is it in-character for Darth Marr to use his telekinetic abilities to constantly ragdoll Knuckles or attack his insides?
 
ShakeResounding said:
Biggest threat to Knux here is for sure the Force Powers and Precog, as their AP difference is insignificant enpugh that Darth Marr attacking Knux's internal organs would be effective. Darth Marr also has the advantage of Class G Lifting Strength vs Knuckles' Class M, meaning a Force Choke or any telekinetic ability will be vastly effective.

Their prior knowledge on one-another grants each one some benefits (for Marr it would give him greater awareness on Knuckles' speed amp techniques, while for Knuckles it would make him avoid doing dumb shit like touching the lightsaber and have him regard Marr with caution).

As much as I wanna root for my boy Knux, I believe this is an encounter that he is gonna have extreme difficulties with. His lower LS leaves him susceptible to Force Grabs, his AP advantage is insignificant enough that his internal organs can still be harmed by Marr, and he has no direct means of outwitting Marr through his precog except for speed-blitz moves that Marr will be mentally prepared to fight against.

Knuckles' prior knowledge on Marr will prevent him from immediately doing a bull-headed rushdown, and may even po ut him in the mindset to use more abilities than just fists, but I'm unsure that will be enough.
Click to expand...
This seems accurate.
ShakeResounding said:
I suppose I'll ask a few questions before giving a vote.
  • How reliable/quick/combat-applicable is Marr's Precognition? Is it something that leaves him susceptible to attacks, or is it in a fashion where he can remain in combat while seeing future stuff?
Click to expand...
It's combat-applicable and gives him an edge by a few seconds minimum. It helps in melee, but can be overwhelmed, sort of how both Jedi and Sith can die to non-force sensitives and why Mandalorians are effective.
ShakeResounding said:
  • I assume it would happen relatively quickly in a standoff of this nature, but is it in-character for Darth Marr to use his telekinetic abilities to constantly ragdoll Knuckles or attack his insides?
Click to expand...
Yes, but primarily telekinetic grabs, he'll attack organs later in a fight, but overall he's still a warrior. He likes his melee even if he takes liberal use of his abilities in combat.
 
Knuckles' AD is more potent when he's facing against an enemy stronger than himself. Since Marr is slightly weaker, Knux has no stronger opponent to grow rapidly against. He does grow stronger passively, but that is a much slower rate and probably won't have any relevance in the match itself since the gap is so small in the beginning of the fight.

DaReaperMan said:
This seems accurate.
Click to expand...
Alright, good. I try to not let my biases get in the way of objective information even when I don't know much of the other character.
DaReaperMan said:
It's combat-applicable and gives him an edge by a few seconds minimum. It helps in melee, but can be overwhelmed, sort of how both Jedi and Sith can die to non-force sensitives and why Mandalorians are effective.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, okay. Those few seconds will definitely be a lynchpin against Knux. I don't believe Knuckles has any good method to overwhelm his precog aside from the Spin Dash and Boost. Tpin Dash will be less reliable here should Knuckles charge it at a standstill (as prior knowledge means Marr would identify the technique and just Forge Grab him), he would HAVE to incorporate it fluidly on combat and even then Marr would still be on high alert.

Boost is slightly more efficient and also faster, but the main issue is that Knuckles doesn't have any meaningful hax he could whip out to stop the fight after he potentially rushes Marr with it. He doesn't have enough of an AP advantage to capitalize on it either.
DaReaperMan said:
Yes, but primarily telekinetic grabs, he'll attack organs later in a fight, but overall he's still a warrior. He likes his melee even if he takes liberal use of his abilities in combat.
Click to expand...
Well the title certaintly makes more sense to me now.

The way I see it, Knuckles' best chance comes from ending the fight ASAP and essentially not giving Marr time to breathe. The issue is that a negligible AP difference in Knux's favor and his mostly-irrelevant hax isn't gonna be enough to solidly land him a victory.

As much as I wanna vote for Rad Red, I'm gonna be voting Darth Marr due to:
  • Faster win-conditions compared to Knuckles.
  • Greater LS, meaning his Force Grabs will always be particularly effective.
  • Damaging internal organs should the fight drag too long.
  • Combat-efficient precognition allowing for glimpses into the immediate future.

Knux would put up a good fight, and I do believe dodging the Lightsaber wouldn't be too bad for him, but the rest ensures Marr has a seemingly-decisive victory.

Good match, btw!
 
ShakeResounding said:
Ahhh, okay. Those few seconds will definitely be a lynchpin against Knux. I don't believe Knuckles has any good method to overwhelm his precog aside from the Spin Dash and Boost. Tpin Dash will be less reliable here should Knuckles charge it at a standstill (as prior knowledge means Marr would identify the technique and just Forge Grab him), he would HAVE to incorporate it fluidly on combat and even then Marr would still be on high alert.
Click to expand...
You may be forgetting about the Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, a technique akin to the Light-Speed Attack, which uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, something Darth Marr doesn't have prior knowledge. (although I don't think that helps against precognition)
 
ShakeResounding said:
Knuckles' AD is more potent when he's facing against an enemy stronger than himself. Since Marr is slightly weaker, Knux has no stronger opponent to grow rapidly against. He does grow stronger passively, but that is a much slower rate and probably won't have any relevance in the match itself since the gap is so small in the beginning of the fight.


Alright, good. I try to not let my biases get in the way of objective information even when I don't know much of the other character.

Ahhh, okay. Those few seconds will definitely be a lynchpin against Knux. I don't believe Knuckles has any good method to overwhelm his precog aside from the Spin Dash and Boost. Tpin Dash will be less reliable here should Knuckles charge it at a standstill (as prior knowledge means Marr would identify the technique and just Forge Grab him), he would HAVE to incorporate it fluidly on combat and even then Marr would still be on high alert.

Boost is slightly more efficient and also faster, but the main issue is that Knuckles doesn't have any meaningful hax he could whip out to stop the fight after he potentially rushes Marr with it. He doesn't have enough of an AP advantage to capitalize on it either.

Well the title certaintly makes more sense to me now.

The way I see it, Knuckles' best chance comes from ending the fight ASAP and essentially not giving Marr time to breathe. The issue is that a negligible AP difference in Knux's favor and his mostly-irrelevant hax isn't gonna be enough to solidly land him a victory.

As much as I wanna vote for Rad Red, I'm gonna be voting Darth Marr due to:
  • Faster win-conditions compared to Knuckles.
  • Greater LS, meaning his Force Grabs will always be particularly effective.
  • Damaging internal organs should the fight drag too long.
  • Combat-efficient precognition allowing for glimpses into the immediate future.

Knux would put up a good fight, and I do believe dodging the Lightsaber wouldn't be too bad for him, but the rest ensures Marr has a seemingly-decisive victory.
Click to expand...
Counted
ShakeResounding said:
Good match, btw!
Click to expand...
Thanks, I try to make things interesting with Prior knowledge and whatnot.
McFriesGuy075 said:
You may be forgetting about the Maximum Heat Knuckles Attack, a technique akin to the Light-Speed Attack, which uses the Spin Dash as it's base technique, something Darth Marr doesn't have prior knowledge.
Click to expand...
Marr still has precog to not be caught too off guard.
 
I'm thinking Power Flash to para into an Ichikoro Gauge one-shot might be an option for Knux. But I'm not too confident in it given the precog and other force shiz, voting Marr FRA
 
Knuckles being canonically adverse to using hax off rip doesn’t help him.
Leaning Marr FRA
 
My dumb ahh read it as "furry warriors" 🥀

Sith Lord merks a furry FRA
 
JJSliderman said:
Knuckles being canonically adverse to using hax off rip doesn’t help him.
Leaning Marr FRA
Click to expand...
Well, Reaper specified they both have some prior knowledge on one another; making it more likely he uses hax off-rip.

The issue is Knux just... doesn't have any insta-win button he can access at the BEGINNING of the fight that's meaningful like some other characters do. Something like the Ichikoro Gauge would be solid, but he needs to build up to that. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have the time to do so without going like... uber-defensive (Knux Guard). Which isn't really his style even with prior knowledge.

There's definitely an argument to be made for Knux being capable of winning, he's just put up against somewhat of a perfect counter in Marr due to LS TK + Precog.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Well, Reaper specified they both have some prior knowledge on one another; making it more likely he uses hax off-rip.

The issue is Knux just... doesn't have any insta-win button he can access at the BEGINNING of the fight that's meaningful like some other characters do. Something like the Ichikoro Gauge would be solid, but he needs to build up to that. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have the time to do so without going like... uber-defensive (Knux Guard). Which isn't really his style even with prior knowledge.

There's definitely an argument to be made for Knux being capable of winning, he's just put up against somewhat of a perfect counter in Marr due to LS TK + Precog.
Click to expand...
honestly I kinda hoped that between the legend, lightsaber, and precog Knux had a bigger chance
 
Knux like many others are outdated, but even if he was up to date he would already be way higher for this match up to work.
 
Would crushing Knuckles' organs even end the fight? Knuckles can consistantly recover from being crushed flat like a pancake.
 
Causalist said:
Would crushing Knuckles' organs even end the fight? Knuckles can consistantly recover from being crushed flat like a pancake.
Click to expand...
It'd slow him down, and uh... Knux can't really heal from having his head taken off.
 
DaReaperMan said:
It'd slow him down, and uh... Knux can't really heal from having his head taken off.
Click to expand...
With a light saber strike? Only if the heat that comes from it surpasses the heat resistance Knuckles has from falling into a star in Sonic Shuffle. Speaking of which, Marr has no heat resistance of his own, which means that Knuckles' fire punches would deal heavy elemental damage to Marr. Combine this with his minor AP advantage and the piercing damage of his shovel claws and spin attacks, and Knuckles' martial arts skill should allow him to end the fight in a single combo. Sure, Marr has instinctive action to help him dodge, but Knuckles "possibly" does as well, and his smaller size makes evasion more efficient. Even if the light saber can one shot him (which I doubt for the reason stated above), Knuckles has prior knowledge of the danger it poses. He can steal it and add it to his hammerspace where Marr can't retrieve it. This is a common tactic in Sonic The Fighters and it's not like his class K grip strenght would be able to do anything about it since Knuckles' LS is class M.

In short, Knuckles has everything he needs to win. The only question is which is going to end up being the more critical knowledge? Knuckles' knowledge of Marr's precog or Marr's knowledge of Knuckles' speed amps? I think the answer is the former. The speed amp provided by even an uncharged spin dash is so potent that Marr would not be able to move fast enough to parry it even knowing it's coming. The best he can do is set up a forcefield against it, but Knuckles can just trip him up with Hammer Punch or burrow underground to get around it. Something he can do even in spin attack formation. Although I guess Marr could just jump out of the way if he does that...

And come to think of it, Marr does have better range with the force than Knuckles does even with abillities like Hammer Punch or his lightning bolts. Upon further investigation, it turns out light sabers burn WAY hotter than the surface of the sun, so I guess it would one shot Knuckles after all.

Damn, these two counter each other so well! BANGER matchup, honestly. I'm gonna vote for Marr EXTREME diff because while these two are extremely evenly matched in so many ways, Knuckles has no answer to just being held in place by telekenisis right from the start. He could use Power Flash, but that requires a hand gesture and a couple of rings (although that's not yet mentionned in the profile). Since the fight takes place on Angel Island, he could go around collecting rings, but he'd need to be out of sight and out of reach of Marr's force hold, which would be tough even on his home turf.

Marr takes it roughly 55% of the time since it is absolutely vital that he holds Knuckles in place from start to finish, and since he tends to favor Force Chokes to do it, Knuckles' arms would still be free to do the hand gesture required to summon lightning that would turn the tide in his favor if it lands.
 
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