One Punch Man: Mid Tiers Scaling Revision

[Farfetchedx]

Since the previous thread was sorta confusing, I’ve made this thread and decided to stick to just one thorough argument, rather than multiple. This will only attempt to scale Gyoro Gyoro to Gouketsu. Please look at all the links and go through the entire thing before replying.

The Argument For Scaling
Gyoro Gyoro states that multiple S-Class heroes would give Gouketsu a hard time, which should include Tatsumaki. Gyoro Gyoro later claims that she is stronger than Tatsumaki, which means that Gyoro Gyoro should scale to Gouketsu.

Note!
Whenever I mention Tatsumaki, I am talking about Gyoro Gyoro’s own interpretation of her.

Why Should This Include Tatsumaki?
Well the word “multiple” would require at least 2 or 3 people, and she and King are considered to be the strongest heroes, with the exception of Blast. Tatsumaki is treated as the Heroes Association’s most powerful weapon and having combat ability on a different level from the rest, while king is considered the most powerful man on Earth. Even Darkshine hyped them up as the heroes absolutely not to be messed with.

Why Blast Wouldn’t Be Included?
As I've stated in the last thread, Blast is widely believed to be retired/not active, due to his absence and unknown whereabouts. There’s numerous evidence to support this:

1. Blast made it seem like he disappeared by not showing himself to the public ever since he encountered God

2. This claims that Blast doesn't show himself publicly. So much so that the world considers Tatsumaki to be the Hero Association’s strongest weapon, despite Blast being far above her

3. Even Sekingar thought that Blast retired, and he’s one of the most well informed executives.

4. This executive confirms that Blast is inactive

5. Flashy Flash confirms that Blast doesn’t show himself whatsoever

6. Sonic believed that Blast had gone missing

So there's no reason for Gyoro Gyoro to believe that Blast would randomly show up.


Gyoro Gyoro Believed That Tatsumaki Was The Strongest Available Hero
In this scan, it’s implied that Gyoro Gyoro saw Tatsumaki as the most powerful enemy at the time.

In this scene, Gyoro Gyoro is trying to figure out why Orochi has disappeared. Tatsumaki suggests that Orochi might have encountered another S-Class hero and is currently occupied.
Gyoro Gyoro's thought process is as follows:

• She dismisses Tatsumaki's suggestion that another hero could be a threat to her "military adviser" (Orochi).
• Gyoro Gyoro’s line, "Noooo, I've got Tatsumaki over here," is her way of saying that she is already fighting the most formidable hero, so a more powerful enemy capable of distracting Orochi would be illogical or a serious new problem she hasn't accounted for.

Therefore, the dialogue actually serves to highlight Gyoro Gyoro's initial belief that no other hero is strong enough to occupy Orochi, with Tatsumaki being the most powerful enemy she believes she needs to deal with.

Gyoro Gyoro also wanted to deal with Tatsumaki herself, due to how powerful she was. Gyoro Gyoro never intended on fighting anyone else, or assigned Orochi to fight anyone personally. King was still a mystery to her, so logically, she wouldn't place him above Tatsumaki.

Possible Counter Argument:
“Psykos didn't say it’s based on strength alone, there are multiple factors she takes into account. Matchups exist in battles.”

Like I’ve also said in the other thread. This is a case that absolutely requires her AP to Scale. Esper's abilities rely on power. If there's not enough power, this is what happens. Another example is where Garou becomes a threat big enough to where Gyoro Gyoro believed that taking him down would take a considerable amount of power. So yes, Espers NEED to scale to whoever they’re capable of taking down, or giving trouble.

"The statement doesn’t imply that anyone scales to Gouketsu, just that S-Class heroes together can cause trouble to him."

If none of the S-Class heroes scaled, simply working together wouldn’t allow them to cause him trouble, as significantly higher stats cannot be overcome through sheer numbers. This logic isn't even supported by the manga. Prime example is when trillions of Black Sperms were unable harm or do anything against Darkshine.

Conclusion
Considering that Tatsunaki would be in the top 2 available heroes, as well as Gyoro Gyoro thinking that she was the strongest hero at the time, Gyoro Gyoro’s interpretation of Tatsumaki would be among the multiple S class heroes that would give Gouketsu a hard time. And since Gyoro Gyoro was confident in beating Tatsumaki, she should also be able comparable to Gouketsu, thus scaling to 6-B. We use the same way of scaling to get her above Elder Centipede, so this should be fine.

Proposal
Gyoro Gyoro and characters scaling to her would go from High 6-C to 6-B. This includes:

Bang
Bomb
Atomic Samurai
Child Emperor
Metal Knight
Promoted Rook
Drive Knight
Darkshine
Flashy Flash
Genos
Puri-Puri-Prisoner
Fubuki
Gearsper
Lord Boros
Orochi
Garou
Psykos
Carnage Kabuto
Lord Boros
Melzargard
Groribas
Black Sperm
Overgrown Rover
Gouketsu
Elder Centipede
Homeless Emperor
Nyan
Fuhrer Ugly
Phoenix Man
Gale Wind
Hellfire Flame

The scaling from her would remain the same. The only thing that would need to be changed is her justification, into something like this:

At least Country level (Gyoro Gyoro considered herself stronger than Tatsumaki and stated that multiple S-Class heroes would give Gouketsu a hard time — a statement that should also apply to her assessment of Tatsumaki, since Tatsumaki was regarded as one of the two strongest available heroes to face him at the time. Able to immobilize and harm Half-Monster Garou after his fight with Rover. Superior to Overgrown Rover, as it submits to her, and Rover is noted to submit to beings more powerful than it[2]. Had control over the entire Monster Association, therefore she should be above the average Dragon level threat[Statistics Values 1]) higher with Multi-Eye Form (Much stronger than before. Believed that she was stronger than Tatsumaki after just being effortlessly crushed by her)

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[RealitySplitter]

I disagree

Gouketsu on his own says Gyoro Gyoro underestimates him

 

[Greatsage13th]

I disagree

Gouketsu on his own says Gyoro Gyoro underestimates him

He thinks or he knows? It could be him flaring his own ego for all we know.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Gouketsu on his own says Gyoro Gyoro underestimates him

Then later admits that she was right by saying this.

 

[RealitySplitter]

Then later admits that she was right by saying this.

He's saying this to Bakuzan. Nothing to do with Gouketsu

 

[Damage3245]

Gyoro Gyoro and characters scaling to her would go from High 6-C to 6-B

Include a list of which other characters would be affected in the OP, please.

 

[RealitySplitter]

He thinks or he knows? It could be him flaring his own ego for all we know.

The same with Gyoro-Gyoro/Psychos and Tatsumaki. Psychos was confident she's stronger throughout most of the fight.

 

[Greatsage13th]

The same with Gyoro-Gyoro/Psychos and Tatsumaki. Psychos was confident she's stronger throughout most of the fight.

I see. But if both of them had been flaring their egos, but one who flared their ego acknowledges the fact that the other can deal with a few S-class with some trouble. Then the ego issue wouldn't disprove the scaling since Psychos was aware how strong Gouketsu really is.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Include a list of which other characters would be affected in the OP, please.

Done

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't there an obvious contradiction here of Gyoro-Gyoro considering Tatsumaki to be the strongest hero there is (at what she assumes is 6-B here) since she is ignorant of Tatsumaki's true strength, yet there are at least eleven heroes in that list who would be equal to what she believes Tatsumaki's strength to be?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Really though? Because from the stories it seems clear cut that Tatsumaki is a cut above all other heroes present in the arc at that time, like no one even comes close.

 

[RealitySplitter]

I see. But if both of them had been flaring their egos, but one who flared their ego acknowledges the fact that the other can deal with a few S-class with some trouble. Then the ego issue wouldn't disprove the scaling since Psychos was aware how strong Gouketsu really is.

Psykos wasn't able to see actual power of a powerful fighters:
Tatsumaki power despite fighting with her for a long time, Hellfire Flame and Gale Wind true power (who damaged Flashy Flash who scales to Platinum S) and Orochi power.
Therefore we don't know if she's able to see Gouketsu true power especially that part of power that goes from his martial arts. Also this scaling contradicts another scalings:
Darkshine needs 15 min to beat Carnage Kabouto who scales much below Gouketsu (Genos, who has witnessed an all-out battle between Superalloy Darkshine and Carnage Kabuto in the VGS, Tatsumaki deflect the artillery from Boros' ship, and Saitama nullify most of the meteor's impact energy, compared Gouketsu's power to the latter and believed that Saitama, Tatsumaki, and the rest of S-Class Heroes would have to work together to defeat him) and are heavily damaging and destroying Psykorochi Jet. (Psychos alone > Gyoro Gyoro). If we scale Darkshine and Puri-Puri Prisoner to Gouketsu through Gyoro-Gyoro this will contradit other scalings where Gouketsu is much above them.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Isn't there an obvious contradiction here of Gyoro-Gyoro considering Tatsumaki to be the strongest hero there is (at what she assumes is 6-B here) since she is ignorant of Tatsumaki's true strength, yet there are at least eleven heroes in that list who would be equal to what she believes Tatsumaki's strength to be?

I don't understand. Why would they be equal and not just relative? Just because they're scaling from the same value doesn't mean they're equal.

 

[RealitySplitter]

Fubuki scaling to Gouketsu.... Than let's scale Do-S and others who are comparable or above Fubuki to Gouketsu too, why not

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Unsure atm

 

[MrTayman616]

I still disagree with this. It doesn't fit both scaling and narrative wise.

Gyoro Gyoro states that multiple S-Class heroes would give Gouketsu a hard time, which should include Tatsumaki. Gyoro Gyoro later claims that she is stronger than Tatsumaki, which means that Gyoro Gyoro should scale to Gouketsu.

The statement of "Multiple S-Class heroes" comes from the fact that Gyoru Gyoru believes they can't fight against him alone. It wouldn't imply more than King imo, who's believed to be strong enough to kill Tatsumaki. This statement is different than Elder Centipede's as it was "they can fight against him alone" while in Gouketsu's statement, it is that Gyoro believes they can't fight against him alone.

Gyoro Gyoro doesn't even say he'll lose but just giving him "hard time". I see no direct reason for scaling here. Even Gyoro Gyoro couldn't believe it after learing that Gouketsu was defeated.

Also considering Genos's statement about it as well, who saw Darkshine at full power, still believes All S-Class members are required to fight against him.

Why Should This Include Tatsumaki?
Well the word “multiple” would require at least 2 or 3 people, and she and King are considered to be the strongest heroes, with the exception of Blast. Tatsumaki is treated as the Heroes Association’s most powerful weapon and having combat ability on a different level from the rest, while king is considered the most powerful man on Earth. Even Darkshine hyped them up as the heroes absolutely not to be messed with.

"At least" doesn't mean much here, as it can easily mean 7-8 heroes etc.

Also Darkshine includes himself as well d:

Why Blast Wouldn’t Be Included?

So there's no reason for Gyoro Gyoro to believe that Blast would randomly show up.

Within HQ, yes. But Gyoro Gyoro is shown to include Blast before for heroes who can fight against Elder Centipede.

Gyoro Gyoro Believed That Tatsumaki Was The Strongest Available Hero
In this scan, it’s implied that Gyoro Gyoro saw Tatsumaki as the most powerful enemy at the time.


In this scene, Gyoro Gyoro is trying to figure out why Orochi has disappeared. Tatsumaki suggests that Orochi might have encountered another S-Class hero and is currently occupied.
Gyoro Gyoro's thought process is as follows:

• She dismisses Tatsumaki's suggestion that another hero could be a threat to her "military adviser" (Orochi).
• Gyoro Gyoro’s line, "Noooo, I've got Tatsumaki over here," is her way of saying that she is already fighting the most formidable hero, so a more powerful enemy capable of distracting Orochi would be illogical or a serious new problem she hasn't accounted for.

Therefore, the dialogue actually serves to highlight Gyoro Gyoro's initial belief that no other hero is strong enough to occupy Orochi, with Tatsumaki being the most powerful enemy she believes she needs to deal with.

Gyoro Gyoro also wanted to deal with Tatsumaki herself, due to how powerful she was. Gyoro Gyoro never intended on fighting anyone else, or assigned Orochi to fight anyone personally. King was still a mystery to her, so logically, she wouldn't place him above Tatsumaki.

Gyoro Gyoro wants to save herself, which is the reason Orochi needs to come.

"Noooo, I've got Tatsumaki over here" is a response for her situation where she's near death, as he's disobeying him and doesn't come to save him. At least imo, it just sounds like "an opponent so strong that he's ignoring my crisis when i'm against tornado" rather than "Tatsumaki is the strongest, so no opponent should be strong enough for Orochi" which doesn't make sense narrative wise either.

Also Gyoro Gyoro did consider that HQ may be keeping cards above S-Class in secret.

Possible Counter Argument:
“Psykos didn't say it’s based on strength alone, there are multiple factors she takes into account. Matchups exist in battles.”

Like I’ve also said in the other thread. This is a case that absolutely requires her AP to Scale. Esper's abilities rely on power. If there's not enough power, this is what happens. Another example is where Garou becomes a threat big enough to where Gyoro Gyoro believed that taking him down would take a considerable amount of power. So yes, Espers NEED to scale to whoever they’re capable of taking down, or giving trouble.

It doesn't have to be her who scales, nor it really needs AP to be comparable. Like, it'd be enough if she was able to keep him in place for seconds. There are martial artists like Bang, Sword Master Atomic Samurai, Fastest S-Class member Flashy Flash.

Giving him a "hard time" doesn't necessarily mean their strongest has to scale to him.

Tatsumaki doesn't need to scale as they only give trouble as a group based on the trouble, not individually.

"The statement doesn’t imply that anyone scales to Gouketsu, just that S-Class heroes together can cause trouble to him."

If none of the S-Class heroes scaled, simply working together wouldn’t allow them to cause him trouble, as significantly higher stats cannot be overcome through sheer numbers. This logic isn't even supported by the manga. Prime example is when trillions of Black Sperms were unable harm or do anything against Darkshine.

Speed difference, Technique, internal damage via psychic ability, heat based attacks.

Black Sperm vs Darskine is basically puppies vs nuclear bomb.

Gyoro Gyoro didn't even believe he'd lose to begin with.

Considering that Tatsunaki would be in the top 2 available heroes, as well as Gyoro Gyoro thinking that she was the strongest hero at the time,

She thinks like this after she was utterly defeated, realizing Tatsumaki's power was beyond her calculations.

Also that would include Orochi as well, as they believe HQ can defeat any moster when they are alone.

---

Also to mention, This completely destroys the scaling chain. Genos who saw Darkshine at full power believes Gouketsu is way above and required the entire S-Class, the scaling scain literally makes Darshine comparable to him. Not just by value in the wiki but narrative wise based on the arguments.

So i don't really see a legit reason to accept it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My main issue is that it sounds almost purely hypothetical and over relies on mental gymnastics.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

My main issue is that it sounds almost purely hypothetical and over relies on mental gymnastics.

I understand your opinion.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Sorry for the late response. Been busy with exams in the past few weeks/months. Anyways,

The statement of "Multiple S-Class heroes" comes from the fact that Gyoru Gyoru believes they can't fight against him alone. It wouldn't imply more than King imo, who's believed to be strong enough to kill Tatsumaki. This statement is different than Elder Centipede's as it was "they can fight against him alone" while in Gouketsu's statement, it is that Gyoro believes they can't fight against him alone.

If multiple heroes can give him trouble, they would have to scale to him or be able to bypass his durability. Also, King being stronger than Tatsumaki is not a universal claim. I literally posted scans that contradict it. The general consensus is definitely split. Some believe that the King is stronger based on his mythical lore, while some rather take feats over rumors, and will place Tatsumaki above him. Gyoro Gyoro seems to be in the latter, since she chose to deal with Tatsumaki herself after witnessing her in action, saying that she was a big problem.

Gyoro Gyoro doesn't even say he'll lose but just giving him "hard time". I see no direct reason for scaling here.

Yes. If anything, this is a reason why they more than likely SHOULD scale, as it implies they won’t easily defeat him with stuff like fire or internal attacks, but rather, it would be a difficult fight, where the S-Class would have to exchange blows.

Even Gyoro Gyoro couldn't believe it after learing that Gouketsu was defeated.

She didn't just learned that he got defeated, she straight up saw his head and a good chunk of his torso missing. She probably expected him to be defeated by them, but not to that extent.

"At least" doesn't mean much here, as it can easily mean 7-8 heroes etc.

What are you even trying to say here?

Also Darkshine includes himself as well d:

This doesn't really change anything. Of course he’s gonna include himself due to his big ego, but the fact that he only mentions those 2 makes it clear he sees them above everybody else. Drive Knight also placed King and Tatsumaki at the top of the S-Class, saying they’re the only ones who can handle the Cadres, which further supports my argument that no one expects Blast to ever show up.

Within HQ, yes. But Gyoro Gyoro is shown to include Blast before for heroes who can fight against Elder Centipede.

No, she said that he was one of the heroes who could stand against Elder Centipede. That’s not her including him and expecting him to appear. Big difference

It doesn't have to be her who scales, nor it really needs AP to be comparable. Like, it'd be enough if she was able to keep him in place for seconds. There are martial artists like Bang, Sword Master Atomic Samurai, Fastest S-Class member Flashy Flash.

Giving him a "hard time" doesn't necessarily mean their strongest has to scale to him.

Tatsumaki doesn't need to scale as they only give trouble as a group based on the trouble, not individually.

Speed difference, Technique, internal damage via psychic ability, heat based attacks.

Speed and techniques don’t matter if they can’t bypass his durability. I’ve literally shown that Tatsumaki needs to be comparable for her telekinesis power to work, so keeping him in place would still require her to scale to him, and whoever is inflicting the damage would be required to scale as well. The only thing you've mentioned that can actually hurt Gouketsu, is tatsumaki’s dura neg. And I doubt Psykos was considering that when she made the statement, as then Tatsumaki wouldn’t need help from the others to beat him. And again, a “hard time” suggests an actual fight, not a one sided stomp. Tbh, I don’t even think Psykos was including Tatsumaki(She probably knew she was at a far location) in that statement. I just know that Psykos' perception of Tatsumaki scales above everyone else.

Black Sperm vs Darskine is basically puppies vs nuclear bomb.

These same Black S were beating up members of the S Class, so this is just untrue.

Gyoro Gyoro didn't even believe he'd lose to begin with.

You don't need to be able to defeat someone to scale to them. Also, you can't prove that.

She thinks like this after she was utterly defeated, realizing Tatsumaki's power was beyond her calculations.

All my arguments implied that she knew from before.

Also that would include Orochi as well, as they believe HQ can defeat any moster when they are alone.

This would include Orochi’s perceived strength, yes

---

Also to mention, This completely destroys the scaling chain. Genos who saw Darkshine at full power believes Gouketsu is way above and required the entire S-Class, the scaling scain literally makes Darshine comparable to him. Not just by value in the wiki but narrative wise based on the arguments.

So i don't really see a legit reason to accept it.

This logic doesn’t make sense to me. This is like saying our current scaling is invalid because characters like Fubuki have the same value as much stronger characters like Atomic Samurai, Darkshine, Elder Centipede, etc. Regarding the narrative part, the statement from Genos doesn’t imply that Darkshine is incomparable to Gouketsu at all. It just implies that he is far weaker and would lose easily in a 1v1. What you’re implying, would be as if Genos said something like “None of the S Class can even hurt him.” Heck, the very fact that Genos thinks that Darkshine is needed in the fight against Gouketsu, implies that he should downscale from him, especially since Darkshine is just a brawler. Otherwise he’d be useless

My main issue is that it sounds almost purely hypothetical and over relies on mental gymnastics.

I think it's quite the opposite. The S-Class is a relatively haxless set of individuals that heavily rely on physical/AP driven attacks while fighting. In most scenarios, a statement like this("multiple") would apply to at least 3 or more members. So to argue that the 2 strongest individuals from the group wouldn't scale is ridiculous to me, as you would be saying that a group of haxless characters is going to defeat a character that scales hundreds/thousands of times higher than them by using teamwork.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think we should be scaling or downscaling the characters based on hypothetical fights.

Scale the characters off of the actual feats and fights that we can see on-screen which should take higher priority.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Scale the characters off of the actual feats and fights that we can see on-screen which should take higher priority.

Sure, but I still think a possibly rating should given in these cases at least. Just like how we scale Garou and Metal Bat to possibly above Orochi based on what the story implies. Plus, many people(including me) believe that top ranking cadres like Rover & Elder Centipede shouldn't be rated much lower Gouketsu, based on how they're treated. So a possibly rating seems best suited, as while there isn't a direct scaling to put them on his level(besides maybe one), the lore implies it.

 

[Damage3245]

Have you considered that it may be Gouketsu is rated too highly and not Rover & Elder Centipede being rated too lowly?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think we should be scaling or downscaling the characters based on hypothetical fights.

Scale the characters off of the actual feats and fights that we can see on-screen which should take higher priority.

Agreed; otherwise, we'd be taking King being OPM's strongest Stand User seriously. Or Watchdog Man would also be rated much higher than he is now, but we prefer to actually wait for legit demonstrations before concluding.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Have you considered that it may be Gouketsu is rated too highly and not Rover & Elder Centipede being rated too lowly?

No, as Gouketsu's rating is consistent with his own feat and statements

 

[Farfetchedx]

Agreed; otherwise, we'd be taking King being OPM's strongest Stand User seriously. Or Watchdog Man would also be rated much higher than he is now, but we prefer to actually wait for legit demonstrations before concluding.

These are not comparable to what I'm suggesting at all.
We use Psykos to get an idea of how strong character are because its stated that she can read power. King and Watchdog man's statements have no such credibility. We literally scale characters like this

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Have you considered that it may be Gouketsu is rated too highly and not Rover & Elder Centipede being rated too lowly?

Gouketsu's rating comes from a feat he performed himself, plus all the statements he has, he's not just a statements merchant.

 

[Damage3245]

Confidence scaling is a bad idea. It's like scaling Orochi to be superior to Saitama's punches because he wanted to take revenge on Saitama after being beaten by him, even though we all know he'd never be able to scratch him. Based on the logic of "Orochi knows how powerful Saitama is now after witnessing him in combat and still thought he had a chance."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gouketsu's own feat is Country level, but he is rated as Country level+ scaling from the City Z meteor. So at worst, if he is "Rated to highly," he'd still be 6-B but could lose the "+" sign.

 

[Damage3245]

Gouketsu's own feat is Country level, but he is rated as Country level+ scaling from the City Z meteor. So at worst, if he is "Rated to highly," he'd still be 6-B but could lose the "+" sign.

I think the Country level calc Gouketsu has for his cloud-splitting feat is flawed anyway, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.