The Mah-vel Unfawking Thread Step Three: I Came Back with Milk

[Antvasima]

Yes. I did not say that I agreed with it. I have repeatedly stated that the handbook statistics are extremely unreliable. First Mark Gruenwald began to deliberately extremely contradict and downplay all of the actual character feats, including by claiming that the strongest superheroes could only lift a little more than 100 tons, and then the statistics were written from the brief very contradictory and unreliable whims of Tom Brevoort, and everybody else had to deal with it afterwards.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

However, we don't reeeeaaally know how Super-Skrull or the Human Torch would detonate their nova-like power

Would that significantly affect their power, wouldn't they still possess 5-A energy?

 

[SamanPatou]

Maybe? Novas aren't all the same, it's a kind of phenomenon, not a precise one.
We're also talking about statements from the 60s and 70s, who can't tell the scientific consensus at the time and the intention of the author using such a vague term in an even more vague situation?
Afaik HT never blew up a planet, but who knows. It may have 5-B, 5-A, 4-C power for all we know but without showings or very precise statements, we can only be vague. For example, something may reach the heat of the sun or a star, but not have its AP due to range or size. If it wasn't for Thor's statement, I wouldn't even call Super-Skrull's power planet level.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Afaik HT never blew up a planet, but who knows. It may have 5-B, 5-A, 4-C power for all we know but without showings or very precise statements, we can only be vague. For example, something may reach the heat of the sun or a star, but not have its AP due to range or size. If it wasn't for Thor's statement, I wouldn't even call Super-Skrull's power planet level.

Agree.

 

[SamanPatou]

Hello there

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Hello there

Where do Nameless Ones scale?

 

[Eseseso]

Hello there

Who does this scale to, exactly? The Mindless Ones are rather inconsistent.

 

[SamanPatou]

I know, they're kinda cannon fodder, but maybe to the ones in that very same run?
Two pages after that scan Gamora and Drax kill a few of 'em (with weapons though) but maybe following issues have (hopefully) more battles that don't go into full contradiction (like idk Spidey killing them)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Who does this scale to, exactly? The Mindless Ones are rather inconsistent.

Hulkling he fought the mindless ones as part of the same event in where that scan was taken from, actually I think he fought the same mindless ones on the same issue or at least implied to have fough them.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Binary destroying the planet could be used for scaling the brood Queen which fought base Carol.
Ms. Marvel 2006 issue 23
Its somewhat of a retcon of when she was experimented by the queen and gave her binary powers, at that point she had just got her powers and she easily defeated the queen but she apparently turned her into crystal and the world was destroyed by accident the queen survived the destruction of the planet because of her crystal form which made her "invincible", the queen came back to kill Carol who wasn't binary anymore, they fought, Ms Marvel including broke part of her crystal form, Cru including managed to pierce the queen with blasts the queen which Ms Marvel took on directly in Ms Marvel issue 2, it was also stated that the brood planed on killing Cru by blowing up a car sprite crystal which would have taken Cru and earth with it, she exploded the crystal off planet but she was really close to the explosion that also could support planet level

 

[The_Impress]

bzzt

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

bzzt

You remembered like 2 weeks later?

 

[SamanPatou]

It's just that works are going on, I'm almost done with Super-Skrull and I plan to do a small Thing revision, since he appears to be a cardinal point for our generalized scaling.
I believe we could also improve Cap Marvel Carol Danvers, namely her power between the classic and modern version, if interscaling is justified.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I believe we could also improve Cap Marvel Carol Danvers, namely her power between the classic and modern version, if interscaling is justified.

I made the profile what it is today, what exactly do you mean?

 

[The_Impress]

You remembered like 2 weeks later?

College coursework moment

 

[Rex_Eckles]

College coursework moment

I hear you.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I believe we could also improve Cap Marvel Carol Danvers, namely her power between the classic and modern version, if interscaling is justified.

I made the profile what it is today, what exactly do you mean?

Bump

 

[SamanPatou]

I made the profile what it is today, what exactly do you mean?

Did she grow in power progressively during her early times as Ms. Marvel (when she had the red costume)?
Does that version scale fully to the current one, like the one who smashed a meteor in the feat calced on the verse page.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Did she grow in power progressively during her early times as Ms. Marvel (when she had the red costume)?
Does that version scale fully to the current one, like the one who smashed a meteor in the feat calced on the verse page.

There is kinda of an explanation, the reason I made a separation is because when she became more popular she started to get treated as more powerful showing up a lot more and usually among higher tiers there was no actual in verse explanation for that change, that is until Life of Captain Marvel when she was retconned, now it seems that because she is a Kree and has an innate Kree defence mechanism that makes her stronger the more she fights which could explain her power level going up. Nowadays even her binary mode which was usually treated as a state she can only archieve in extreme situations with access to high amounts of energy or near a white hole was shown on multiple occasions being used a lot more casually to the point she entered that state with no power up or simple by using a normal explosion just to ignite. Kelly Thompson also made Carol go through another Brood experiment which unlocked a new transformation I talked about some of those things in the thread where I made the big changes.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Did she grow in power progressively during her early times as Ms. Marvel (when she had the red costume)?

Wait. "Red Costume" You mean her old original costume? If you are refeering to the old one with the Hala star then she did, that was before she even got her energy manipulation powers which made her much more powerful than before, there is no possible comparation there.

 

[SamanPatou]

Wait. "Red Costume" You mean her old original costume? If you are refeering to the old one with the Hala star then she did, that was before she even got her energy manipulation powers which made her much more powerful than before, there is no possible comparation there.

Got it, so Super-Skrull overpowering 1977 Ms. Marvel doesn't mean he can overpower her modern self.

 

[Antvasima]

The lower result here was accepted.

Thing Gets Hit With the Moon

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Got it, so Super-Skrull overpowering 1977 Ms. Marvel doesn't mean he can overpower her modern self.

Hell no, actually a weaker version than modern one which is the 2006 one was actually destroying super skrulls during the secret invasion, only had an hard time against a special super skrull made by Hydra which had a ton of powers, he had the powers of Invisible woman, Hulk's, Iceman, Black Bolt, Sandman, Human Torch (I think He was on fire and flying), Cyclops? (Beams from his eyes)

 

[SamanPatou]

The lower result here was accepted.

Thing Gets Hit With the Moon

vsbattles.fandom.com

I still think anything around planet level to be way, waaay too much, especially now that I've read through 40 years of space stories and characters even stronger than the Thing, such as Super-Skrull, are completely powerless against planet or even moon-destroying weapons, or straight up planetary explosions.

Hell no, actually a weaker version than modern one which is the 2006 one was actually destroying super skrulls during the secret invasion, only had an hard time against a special super skrull made by Hydra which had a ton of powers, he had the powers of Invisible woman, Hulk's, Iceman, Black Bolt, Sandman, Human Torch (I think He was on fire and flying), Cyclops? (Beams from his eyes)

Kl'rt is said in a few instances to be the stronger Super-Skrull ever, but I do agree he's weaker than modern Captain Marvel and my question was only to clarify if cross-scaling was possible.

 

[Eseseso]

I still don't agree with the mini-moon being the same mass as Earth's moon without any statement

 

[SamanPatou]

Agreed, something being called an "exact copy/replica" may not necessarily refer to scale as well.
And I still believe visuals take precedence before vague statements, considering we have the size of the blast and the aftermath, which doesn't imply a celestial body impact at all.

I also disagree with the Thing enduring the full force of the moon.
He was visibly distant from the epicenter and the lack of a crater may once again be just artistic inconsistence of choice, because I don't believe the moon simply landed on his noggin and fractured like an egg.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I still think anything around planet level to be way, waaay too much, especially now that I've read through 40 years of space stories and characters even stronger than the Thing, such as Super-Skrull, are completely powerless against planet or even moon-destroying weapons, or straight up planetary explosions.

I also read a lot of "cosmic stories" and whatnot, whenever they are on earth planet level is treated as really top tier only for the likes of Thor and Hulk but I read multiple stories with Kree and they are shown casually having weapons capable of destroying planets stars and even solar systems, the Skrull inclusive had a weapon to destroy a stars and whatnot. Stories that happen on earth are weird like that.

Kl'rt is said in a few instances to be the stronger Super-Skrull ever, but I do agree he's weaker than modern Captain Marvel and my question was only to clarify if cross-scaling was possible.

I still think that there shouldn't be a huge gap compared to other super skrulls even more so Super Skrulls with Hulk's powers but anyways that's not important anymore.

 

[SamanPatou]

I also read a lot of "cosmic stories" and whatnot, whenever they are on earth planet level is treated as really top tier only for the likes of Thor and Hulk but I read multiple stories with Kree and they are shown casually having weapons capable of destroying planets stars and even solar systems, the Skrull inclusive had a weapon to destroy a stars and whatnot. Stories that happen on earth are weird like that.

The difference is that planet level characters such as Thor and Hulk have either a variable power level, their own mechanics or other factors, as well as numerous feats on that level that back up a rating.
Civilizations do have tier 5 and 4 weapons, but those don't scale to characters, usually, and are treated as doomsday devices.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The difference is that planet level characters such as Thor and Hulk have either a variable power level, their own mechanics or other factors, as well as numerous feats on that level that back up a rating.
Civilizations do have tier 5 and 4 weapons, but those don't scale to characters, usually, and are treated as doomsday devices.

The fact those weapons are usually unclear because they never get the chance to be used because the heroes stop them from doing so puts into question if they are only tier 5, if they can desintegrate a planet that doesn't mean the weapon is limited to tier 5 it just means the wepon might be limited to tier 5 range.
The statements linked to those tier 5 stuff are usually vague like "It can destroy a planet", "it will be the end of humanity" "Can blow a planet" ect none of those type of statements limit the weapon to be only tier 5 it just menas the weapon is at least tier 5.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think anything around planet level to be way, waaay too much, especially now that I've read through 40 years of space stories and characters even stronger than the Thing, such as Super-Skrull, are completely powerless against planet or even moon-destroying weapons, or straight up planetary explosions.

Agreed, something being called an "exact copy/replica" may not necessarily refer to scale as well.
And I still believe visuals take precedence before vague statements, considering we have the size of the blast and the aftermath, which doesn't imply a celestial body impact at all.

I also disagree with the Thing enduring the full force of the moon.
He was visibly distant from the epicenter and the lack of a crater may once again be just artistic inconsistence of choice, because I don't believe the moon simply landed on his noggin and fractured like an egg.

Okay. Never mind then, I suppose.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Agreed, something being called an "exact copy/replica" may not necessarily refer to scale as well.
And I still believe visuals take precedence before vague statements, considering we have the size of the blast and the aftermath, which doesn't imply a celestial body impact at all.

I went with that because I was told it was the case. If not, that changes things.

I also disagree with the Thing enduring the full force of the moon.
He was visibly distant from the epicenter and the lack of a crater may once again be just artistic inconsistence of choice, because I don't believe the moon simply landed on his noggin and fractured like an egg.

The scene seems to suggest he jumped into it. Keep in mind I was going with the notion that it had the same mass as the Earth's moon.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Has there been any conclusion so far?

 

[Antvasima]

Has there been any conclusion so far?

I am not sure, although we seem to have agreed to lessen the statistics for mid-tier characters at least.

 

[SamanPatou]

Research is going on, unfortunately this takes time.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Research is going on, unfortunately this takes time.

Insert that Gabe Newell quote here.

 

[ObberGobb]

Could someone make a list of all the feats that have been accepted/rejected/considered?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

My previous comment was ignored so I will bring it up again this time I will add scans.
Ms. Marvel in her weakest form OG in 1977 took on an explosion caused by a carvorite crystal an explosion which is stated to be capable of destroying Earth.
The carvorite was brought back again in 2006 in which the brood planned to destroy an alien called Cru by exploding a carvorite cystal which was stated to also take the earth with it, one time stated that it would vaporize a hunk of the planet, half the planet, destroy earth, wipe out the planet and Cru was stated to channel enough energy to wipe out the planet

She exploded the crystal on space she was right at the center of it, she was also almost out of energy and hurt when it happened

 

[GeneralSol16]

e fact those weapons are usually unclear because they never get the chance to be used because the heroes stop them from doing so puts into question if they are only tier 5, if they can desintegrate a planet that doesn't mean the weapon is limited to tier 5 it just means the wepon might be limited to tier 5 range.

That's just dumo.
The imtentiobaly of those weapons are as remotely far away from that interpretation as possible. The writer clearly doesn't intend to just say "Oh, this weapon has the potency to blow up a Galaxy, but it can only destroy a planet btw"
Please, let's not pretend that's how it works.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That's just dumo.
The imtentiobaly of those weapons are as remotely far away from that interpretation as possible. The writer clearly doesn't intend to just say "Oh, this weapon has the potency to blow up a Galaxy, but it can only destroy a planet btw"
Please, let's not pretend that's how it works.

Let's not pretend the writers care or understand power scaling, most of the times they use weirdly vague statements as I previously said, and most of the times the statement is from the interpretation of one of the people who live of the planet and for them the planet being destroyed is what's relevant not the destruction of the Galaxy, I remember at least one time where they said things like "It will destroy our world as much as yours" or something like that, if we were to calculate using the distance between those planets the attack would require to be Galaxy but the writer never said it was capable of destroying a Galaxy because for the plot and for the character who said that it's irrelevant.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Let's not pretend the writers care or understand power scaling.

Lmao, and just because of that are we going to head canon absolutely everything as you're? That's why we have things as 1-A Iron Man, because we're just ignoring what the source material says, and on top of that we're mixing everything as it is.

Most of the times they use weirdly vague statements as I previously said, and most of the times the statement is from the interpretation of one of the people who live of the planet and for them the planet being destroyed is what's relevant not the destruction of the Galaxy, I remember at least one time where they said things like "It will destroy our world as much as yours" or something like that, if we were to calculate using the distance between those planets the attack would require to be Galaxy but the writer never said it was capable of destroying a Galaxy because for the plot and for the character who said that it's irrelevant.

Sure, the context of who said what matters, but the intentionality of the writer and the narrative matters more.