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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

CryoTheMayo said:
That's for UIS which I lowballed MUI at because the actual multiplier for MUI is kind of too insane to just throw out there.

In short, VSBW has it accepted that God is At least 160,000x, Blue is at least 50x that (So >8,000,000x) and that fusions are accepted as stronger than their fusee's strongest forms combined in base form. So for example Base Gogeta in Broly is scaled above X20 Blue Goku and SSBE Vegeta combined.

In the Moro Saga it is shown that Moro can counter Spirit Fission via speed blitzing. Yet Piccolo states Fusion is useless against Moro due to Spirit Fission being copied. Which Goku appears to agree with. That implies relativity between Moro-73 and Gogeta Blue (No Potaras, Piccolo saw Gogeta Blue, Gogeta has only gone up to Blue so far, Gogeta has no reason to hold back here). Enough for Moro-73 to land hits to defuse him.

Then we see UI Goku completely stomp Moro-73 with zero difficulty. Making it clear that UI is a greater trump card than the Fusion Dance.

That leaves two routes. Lowball (SSB x SSB via Base Gogeta > SSB Goku) or highball (SSBE x SSB via Base Gogeta > SSBE Vegeta/UIS Goku)
  • SSB x SSB = 8,000,000 x 8,000,000 = 64 Trillion
  • SSBE x SSB = 400,000,000 x 8,000,000 = 3.2 Quadrillion
So via that logic MUI's multiplier is well beyond 64 trillion times Base or 3.2 Quadrillion times Base. And this multiplier would apply to similar forms such as UE, Beast, Orange and (probably) Black.

Take that wank as you will.
Click to expand...
I understand, that makes sense.
 
KaramcaS said:
  • SSSJ3 Goku: 204.8 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C)
  • SFPSJ4 Goku: 407.5 Quintillion x 3 Universes (2-C)
Click to expand...
1,989x advantage for Goku against Goku.
APwise things should go pretty smoothly and i'll start research in other areas to see if this matchmake is possible.
Super Goku will be called S and GT Goku will be called GT, cuz i'm lazy.
  • Speed
    • Equalization is necessary cuz GT has infinite speed going on.
  • LS
    • S has a feat that speaks about Billions of metric tons, Class T. GT has a feat that speaks about Trillions of metric tons. Yeah i know the buffs scale to every stat and etc, but do we have anything to tell us that the diff goes below ~1000x? This shouldn't make the match impossible because of something i will comment on in a bit, but quite weird in the beginning, yeah
  • SS and Durability
    • Scale to AP, nothing to see here
  • Stamina
    • Both have short-period incredible stamina, would say equally so. In the long-term, S is speaking about a ton of resilience and regen/pain enduring (stuff GT has a lot too) while GT speaks about minimizing Ki Drain with the tail and SSJ4 being a particularly energy-efficient (Vs. S being able to use SSJ3 more efficiently. That seems like quite a bit of advantage)
  • Intelligence
    • Both are impressive, but the wall of text being barely twice as long for GT (mf, 5283 characters vs 2647, and that's not counting spaces! I highly doubt whoever wrote it has dedicated 1% of the effort for any school/college essays) indicates to me that he's likely going to outsmart S somewhere in the fight!
That leaves us with GT being barely 2x as strong, ~1000x more LS, a tiny bit more stamina and possibly quite a gap in Intelligence. Why proceed?

Low-Mid Healing, Regen, Ressurection and Zenkai! S is not easy to kill even in those conditions, and having those tools make him waaaaaay harder to kill

Speaking of killing, the way i see it, seems to me like anyone of them can kill each other lol
See, S can ressurect and no limit for it is apparent, and GT has 4 or 5 types of Immortality + Low-Godly regen

Anyone opposing that this would likely turn out as an incon? Or thinking that any side wins?
 
Note: Considering those values, if we change it to SSJ2 vs SSJ4 gives a diff of 51,2 quintillion vs 40,75 quintillion (SFP being 10x SSJ4 and SSJ3 being 4x SSJ2), rendering a tiny advantage for Super's Goku (1,25x, but still). If anyone thinks that it would be valuable, we could make that change
 
noninho said:
Stamina
  • Both have short-period incredible stamina, would say equally so. In the long-term, S is speaking about a ton of resilience and regen/pain enduring (stuff GT has a lot too) while GT speaks about minimizing Ki Drain with the tail and SSJ4 being a particularly energy-efficient (Vs. S being able to use SSJ3 more efficiently. That seems like quite a bit of advantage)
Click to expand...
Worth noting that we have seen examples of Super Saiyan 4 failing stamina-wise with examples like Vegeta reverting to base form just by trying to power up. Very similar to Buu Saga SS3 Goku reverting to base via powering up. And S, unlike GT, has the option of dropping down to SS2 if the stamina in SS3 is too intensive. Comparatively GT's only option would be to drop from SS4 all the way down to SS3. A dramatic decrease in power compared to a relatively low decrease.

For example if GT gets weaker over time but S's SS3 starts to weaken him significantly S can just drop to 2 and maintain his strength for the rest of the fight whereas GT would keep growing weaker or would be forced to drop to 3 himself.

In short, S has options to control his stamina efficiency while retaining much of his power whereas GT would have to sacrifice like 99% of his power if 4's stamina became an issue.

S also has feats like recovering his stamina while fighting against Caulifla and Kale. Going from being limited to just base form to powering up all the way to Blue Kaio-Ken in under two minutes. So his recovery rate seems much faster than GT's.

noninho said:
Intelligence
  • Both are impressive, but the wall of text being barely twice as long for GT (mf, 5283 characters vs 2647, and that's not counting spaces! I highly doubt whoever wrote it has dedicated 1% of the effort for any school/college essays) indicates to me that he's likely going to outsmart S somewhere in the fight!
Click to expand...
From what I looked over, most of GT's intelligence section applies to Super. Much of it comes from the original manga. And what Toei-original feats it mentions pale in comparison to Super's feats imo like his ability to adapt to Beerus and synchronise with his strikes to negate their clash's destructive capacity. Or deducing Golden's weakness and exploiting it to win a fight he would have otherwise lost. Or reading Hit's Time Skip and countering it with minimal experience. Or learning the Mafuba in a single day. Or everything in the ToP (Ultra Instinct, fighting vastly superior opponents in base form with skill alone like SS2 Caulifla and SS Kale, countering Dyspo faster than Hit could learn to, etc)

So overall I believe Super should take Intelligence in spades.
noninho said:
See, S can ressurect and no limit for it is apparent, and GT has 4 or 5 types of Immortality + Low-Godly regen
Click to expand...
GT does not have immortality or regen under his SFPSS4 key. That's for Post-Negative Karma Ball. Who died then used the Spirit Bomb.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Worth noting that we have seen examples of Super Saiyan 4 failing stamina-wise
Click to expand...
That should really be put in a CRT to counter the Stamina section and be added as a weakness (/counted as an argument here)
From the second/last key of the Stamina section
Superhuman ([...] Super Saiyan 4 has no energy weakness, and is the most efficient of his transformations).
Click to expand...

CryoTheMayo said:
So overall I believe Super should take Intelligence in spades.
Click to expand...
Great advantage to be mentioned, ty for the correction.

CryoTheMayo said:
GT does not have immortality or regen under his SFPSS4 key. That's for Post-Negative Karma Ball. Who died then used the Spirit Bomb.
Click to expand...
So the last key doesn't have access to the transformation? Didn't know it.
Seems like Ressurrection became another great advantage for Super
 
noninho said:
That should really be put in a CRT to counter the Stamina section and be added as a weakness (/counted as an argument here)
From the second/last key of the Stamina section
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm not really sure why the GT page claims SS4 has no energy problems or is the 'most efficient' (wouldn't that go to Grade 4?) We've seen Goku run out of the energy to use things like, IIRC, IT while in the state, Vegeta reverted when powering up after fighting and I don't think it's ever stated SS4 lacks energy control problems. Hell, SS4 Gogeta only lasts 10 minutes because of how strong SS4 is. For comparison SS3 reduces the Fusion timer to 5 minutes for Gotenks.

I will note Blue has a similar effect on Vegito but IIRC it's never stated how much the timer is decreased. Just that they defused much faster than anticipated. And that was from using the Final Kamehameha.
noninho said:
So the last key doesn't have access to the transformation? Didn't know it.
Seems like Ressurrection became another great advantage for Super
Click to expand...
In that key Goku's existence is mysterious and he only ever shows up in his base form. However the key does factor in that he can probably use his Super Saiyan forms. Issue is, it scales his Base form to Omega Shenron via ignoring his attacks. Which would scale him to his previous SFPSS4 state in just Base form. The scaling chain used for SFPSS4 being 2x Post-UIS2 SS3 is from the Shadow Dragons key, pretty sure.

Personally I wouldn't consider that version really combat applicable because of how his existence is intentionally left vague (beyond dying) but it is what it is.
 
Darkmon_cns said:
Anything happen in db between now and daima ending?
Click to expand...
No, not really. XV2 got Future Saga Chapter 3 which had a pretty interesting story but beyond that not much.

There was an event announced for January 25th which will, apparently, reveal at least two projects. So we'll probably be waiting until then for anything new.
 
RoninSlayer200 said:
This was an embarrassment ngl
Click to expand...
Yamcha: 22
Omniman: 14
Neutral 2
38 VOTES
28stab-wounds-criminal.gif
​
 
KaramcaS said:
didnt we already saw that in the U6 Saga in the DBS? When Bulma want to find Super Dragon Balls
Click to expand...
Yes, i think it was Null who said that Earth was at the edge of the universe, and therefore the universe cannot be infinite. I remember debating something like that with him on the infinite universe crt.
 
Agnaa said:
Hey DB-heads, are these edits to Jiren's justifications (as well as these for the anime) and these to Goku Black's legit?
Click to expand...
Changes for Manga Jiren
  • Scales him above Black Frieza and the Super Hero cast which is laughable, he's verbatim weaker than 73-Moro, comparable to ToP MUI Goku (even initially getting overpowered), and SSJ Broly is stated to be superior by Frieza in the novel. Him scaling to the destroyers and especially Beerus has definitely gotten contradicted.
  • For reference, Black Frieza is still superior to the current cast, took down Granolah Saga TUI Goku and UE Vegeta in one hit, and is still verbatim to only be close to Beerus' power.
Changes for Anime Jiren
  • Over-bloated and could be worded much better but it seems ok scaling-wise? I'd revert it still.
Changes for Anime Goku Black
  • A lot of grammatical and spelling mistakes.
  • Gowasa's statement not only isn't even saying Goku Black is the strongest fighter, but that Fused Zamasu is the strongest version of Goku Black, which is a justification that should be in his profile instead.
  • I'm not sure when the producer statement was made, if he stated this before the appearance of Fused Zamasu and while Goku Black was still stronger than Goku and Vegeta then it might be right, but the justification should be far more specific.
All the profiles should be reverted
 
Agnaa said:
Hey DB-heads, are these edits to Jiren's justifications (as well as these for the anime) and these to Goku Black's legit?
Click to expand...
Other than a very unnecessary Low Multiverse via Super Saiyan Rose in 4th key (the 4th key is literally Super Saiyan Rose own key) and some broken imgur links, those description is correct. Though i don't remember Black ever tanked a Final Flash from SSB Vegeta, dude withstood attacks from him of course and...well Ki being UES that scales to all physical stats

Edit: But yeah, like what Edxanel have said, the edit is every amateur, and idk much about manga scaling
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Changes for Manga Jiren
  • Scales him above Black Frieza and the Super Hero cast which is laughable, he's verbatim weaker than 73-Moro, comparable to ToP MUI Goku (even initially getting overpowered), and SSJ Broly is stated to be superior by Frieza in the novel. Him scaling to the destroyers and especially Beerus has definitely gotten contradicted.
  • For reference, Black Frieza is still superior to the current cast, took down Granolah Saga TUI Goku and UE Vegeta in one hit, and is still verbatim to only be close to Beerus' power.
Changes for Anime Jiren
  • Over-bloated and could be worded much better but it seems ok scaling-wise? I'd revert it still.
Changes for Anime Goku Black
  • A lot of grammatical and spelling mistakes.
  • Gowasa's statement not only isn't even saying Goku Black is the strongest fighter, but that Fused Zamasu is the strongest version of Goku Black, which is a justification that should be in his profile instead.
  • I'm not sure when the producer statement was made, if he stated this before the appearance of Fused Zamasu and while Goku Black was still stronger than Goku and Vegeta then it might be right, but the justification should be far more specific.
All the profiles should be reverted
Click to expand...
"Scales him above Black Frieza and the Super Hero cast which is laughable" i said "on par", not above. On par don't even mean equal. And it's not up to HIM to decide. I added the page as a proof : Vegeta said Jiren was physically on par with Freeza.



"im scaling to the destroyers and especially Beerus has definitely gotten contradicted" But no, bc Jiren have be compared, by Vegeta himself, to characters like Gas and even Frieza (at least, physically). In the manga, Jiren have still combat skills superior to Belmold. In the anime, i never compared him to the Current Gods of Destruction and Beerus so, again, no problem lmao.



"For reference, Black Frieza is still superior to the current cast, took down Granolah Saga TUI Goku and UE Vegeta in one hit, and is still verbatim to only be close to Beerus' power." true but Vegeta said, and i quote : "Physically on par"



"Over-bloated and could be worded much better" again : no, lmao. This is not subjectif or an opinion



"Gowasa's statement not only isn't even saying Goku Black is the strongest fighter, but that Fused Zamasu is the strongest version of Goku Black, which is a justification that should be in his profile instead." What kind of translation is that? He litteraly said that Black Goku was "the most powerful". He never said that Fused Zamasu was Black's strongest version. Did we watch the same anime? Gowasu added after "when those two became one...". I send the screen lmao. Episode 65



"I'm not sure when the producer statement was made, if he stated this before the appearance of Fused Zamasu and while Goku Black was still stronger than Goku and Vegeta then it might be right, but the justification should be far more specific." >This was after the appereance of Fused Zamasu



"All the profiles should be reverted" well, NOW, yes lmao
 
Agnaa said:
Thanks for the help, I've gone and reverted them.

EDIT: They've responded to those critiques for what it's worth.
Click to expand...
I'm only gonna respond to these critiques once, if they genuinely want to continue this then they should make an account on this site and start a CRT.
not above. On par don't even mean equal. And it's not up to HIM to decide. I added the page as a proof : Vegeta said Jiren was physically on par with Freeza.
Click to expand...
The statement on its own is pretty weird, there are complete one-shot/stomp gaps between characters like Moro, Gas and Frieza and make them impossible to really be in the same realm of power. Also on par deos generally mean equal, so, at best it means comparable which is still baffling to say.
But no, bc Jiren have be compared, by Vegeta himself, to characters like Gas and even Frieza (at least, physically). In the manga, Jiren have still combat skills superior to Belmold.
Click to expand...
Already covered the Vegeta part which I already explained beforehand, and the "superior combat skills" sounds like more of an intelligence thing rather than potency.
"For reference, Black Frieza is still superior to the current cast, took down Granolah Saga TUI Goku and UE Vegeta in one hit, and is still verbatim to only be close to Beerus' power." true but Vegeta said, and i quote : "Physically on par"
Click to expand...
Characters that have a one-shot/stomp gap between each other are in no world on par or comparable.
"Over-bloated and could be worded much better" again : no, lmao. This is not subjectif or an opinion
Click to expand...
Eh?? It blatantly looks like it's structured bad and that is a real opinion... what.
What kind of translation is that? He litteraly said that Black Goku was "the most powerful".
Click to expand...
Actually mb I read it wrong
This was after the appereance of Fused Zamasu
Click to expand...
Ah so contradicted got it
"the edit is every amateur"

LITTERALY bc the first ones were bad at first. I just added more informations (and proves). How can my edit be pros if the original posts are amators
Click to expand...
Because of the many grammatical and spelling mistakes and how incoherent it feels in certain areas. The current justifications are simple but they are at least coherent and get the point across.

Again not replying to anymore arguments through fandom comments, make a content revision thread if you want to really change the wiki's justifications/scaling for these characters.
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I'm only gonna respond to these critiques once, if they genuinely want to continue this then they should make an account on this site and start a CRT.

The statement on its own is pretty weird, there are complete one-shot/stomp gaps between characters like Moro, Gas and Frieza and make them impossible to really be in the same realm of power. Also on par deos generally mean equal, so, at best it means comparable which is still baffling to say.

Already covered the Vegeta part which I already explained beforehand, and the "superior combat skills" sounds like more of an intelligence thing rather than potency.

Characters that have a one-shot/stomp gap between each other are in no world on par or comparable.

Eh?? It blatantly looks like it's structured bad and that is a real opinion... what.

Actually mb I read it wrong

Ah so contradicted got it

Because of the many grammatical and spelling mistakes and how incoherent it feels in certain areas. The current justifications are simple but they are at least coherent and get the point across.

Again not replying to anymore arguments through fandom comments, make a content revision thread if you want to really change the wiki's justifications/scaling for these characters.
Click to expand...
On par means being able to fight. Jiren can fight peoples like current Goku and Vegeta
In fact, Frieza can be the only exception (bc he one shotted everyone). The main point is that Jiren is still comparable to the top (mortals)
 
I'll finish by this : "Because of the many grammatical and spelling mistakes and how incoherent it feels in certain areas. The current justifications are simple but they are at least coherent and get the point across."

Really, no. You can't say that anyway when you admitted the most of the points. The only problem in Vegeta's statement is Frieza. The rest is true, basically.
 
fwiw I am willing to fix up any grammar issues in this case, if the information ends up being good.
 
ThiboGaleotti said:
I'll finish by this : "Because of the many grammatical and spelling mistakes and how incoherent it feels in certain areas. The current justifications are simple but they are at least coherent and get the point across."

Really, no. You can't say that anyway when you admitted the most of the points. The only problem in Vegeta's statement is Frieza. The rest is true, basically.
Click to expand...
You need to make a crt here on the forum for page changes
 
I was thinking about a new scale, based on the anime Belmold (cowardly clown), where Dragon Ball Super Super Heroes mentions that Jiren is on the same level as Goku and Jiren in terms of power. This is confirmed by Whis. The only difference between Goku and Jiren was that Jiren's ki was more refined. Do you agree with using the cowardly clown as a scale for Goku and company?
 
ThiboGaleotti said:
On par means being able to fight
Click to expand...
On par by itself just means comparable to or equal, which is obviously not the case for a lot of these characters.
ThiboGaleotti said:
Jiren can fight peoples like current Goku and Vegeta
Click to expand...
The points as to why he could were already refuted before.
ThiboGaleotti said:
Frieza can be the only exception (bc he one shotted everyone). The main point is that Jiren is still comparable to the top (mortals)
Click to expand...
How come Frieza gets to be an exception because of his previous scaling contradicting but not Jiren? There's also Moro who is far inferior to the current cast by miles.
ThiboGaleotti said:
I'll finish by this : "Because of the many grammatical and spelling mistakes and how incoherent it feels in certain areas. The current justifications are simple but they are at least coherent and get the point across."

Really, no. You can't say that anyway when you admitted the most of the points. The only problem in Vegeta's statement is Frieza. The rest is true, basically.
Click to expand...
1. What I said here specifically was about how your justifications were formatted and communicated, not how reliable it is. And second I did not admit all of your points at all except for Gowasu's Goku Black statement and Jiren's anime scaling??? You also bring up the Vegeta statement here again when it literally has nothing to do with that.
Agnaa said:
fwiw I am willing to fix up any grammar issues in this case, if the information ends up being good.
Click to expand...
These changes also impacts Jiren's statistical values (currently >11,059,200,000,000,000c to >282,229,111,000,000,000c) it needs to be a CRT.
 
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