A Revision about a World of Slimes - Back to Tier 2 (Cosmology)

[Astral_Trinity439]

Introduction​

Good morning/evening everyone, hope ya'll are doing fine. Considering Volume 22 has added some more context to what we thought before, I decided to try a revision to get the verse back to Tier 2 in general.
As always, avoid any toxic behavior or derailing!
Also, don't start spamming the thread with Post after post. If it's argument from repition both sides should stop after the 2nd post on that topic, unless new AND substantial information is brought up.

Permission to post this was granted by @Elizhaa. I also asked @Mr. Bambu and he said he's fine with it as long as another staff watches over this thread, which @Elizhaa also agreed to do.

I'd also like give permission (if I'm allowed to) to supporters knowledgeable in TenSura such as @PrimeHydra64, @PHANtomFELdway @Community_Gamer, @AlexSamDen and @CodeCCLL to post here if needed.

All translations used here are either from Slimereader, OTL, or from our wiki translators (either staff or approved members) such as @SeijiSetto, @Dattebayo and @MrTayman616. Huge thanks to all of them, really! This thread wouldn't have been possible without them. Additionaly, if you find any scan that doesn't have a translation (except the More Statements section) please highlight it so it can be added. And if you can't find a source for some translation that isn't OTL or Slimereader, feel free to ask that too.

Additionally, keep the following things in mind before reading the CRT to avoid misunderstanding the OP:

Spoiler: IMPORTANT NOTES

• This CRT does NOT concern with the potential 2-A stuff about Chloe's Time Travel or the timelines she went to, nor is it trying to prove that her time travel takes place in different timelines. It only proves the existence of timelines itself, not that they are infinite or of any number, nor related to the Theories Hinata presented.
• This CRT has nothing to do with Tier 1, so if you think some statements qualify for Tier 1, avoid talking about it as it may derail the original purpose of the CRT instead.
• All the Translations used here are either from accepted sources (Official Translation or Slimereader) or from our Translation Staff (From the translation thread or from PMs). Do not attempt to report a post/translation without affirming with the poster if its MTL or if they got it from an accepted source to avoid heated discussion.

With that said, let's get into the contents of the previous CRT...

Table of Contents (Addressing Downgrade)​

Zalario destroying Dimensions
From the downgrade thread, one of the reasons for the downgrade Zalario's statements. To sum it up, it was the following argument:

• The Official Translation and Slimereader says Zalario destroyed Dimensions.
• But the Kanji itself can mean "to overthrow" or "to conquer" and not just "to destroy/annihilate", depending on context. (Dictionary 1, 2)
• The context is that the phantom/angelic forces are trying to find a home and thus the prior translation makes more sence.

These are the RAWs of the Zalario statement if anyone's wondering:

カリスという魔人は素晴らしい強さだった。数多(あまた)の次元を滅ぼしたザラリオから見ても、希(まれ)にみる逸材だと言えた。

Spoiler: Problems

The argument overlooks a few things. First off, the phantom forces are divided into many groups, tasked with doing many things. Among them, Cornu's forces in particular (along with the Yohma) are tasked with conquering universes/dimensions to find a suitable home.

Zalario, on the other hand, is tasked with keeping the Cryptids at bay, not letting them enter the Cardinal World. He himself has nothing to do with finding a suitable home for the phantom forces.

On the contrary, Zalario, the leader of the part of the forces that only deal with cryptid, has also been stated at another instance to have destroyed a Dimension.

In another world, order could be found—the semi-physical world that neatly overlapped the more spiritual realms, such as the elemental and demon worlds. This world, which never intersected with any other, was home to three major forces competing for total supremacy. One was the mystics, hatching grandiose plans to invade other worlds. One was the insectors, primarily occupied with expanding their own haven. Then there were the cryptids, wasting away their days with endless battle and destruction.

Once, there was another force that had come from yet another dimension, but one of the other three had destroyed them and the dimension they came from—such was the extent of this trio’s unparalleled powers.
OTL V16 Prologue
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There was order in the other world. It is a semi-material world that exists on top of the spiritual world so as to overlap the spirit world and the demon world. A world that never intersects. There were three major forces competing for supremacy. The phantoms, who plot to invade other worlds. The insectars, who seek to expand their safe haven. And the cryptids, who spend all of their time fighting and destroying.

There were also forces that came from other dimensions, but they were all destroyed by one of these three forces. To that extent, these three forces boasted unparalleled military prowess.
Slimereader V16 Prologue

Now, there's a contradiction between the two translations for the meaning. Thus we move on to the JP RAWs:

他の異次元から来訪する勢力もいたが、この三勢力のいずれかに よって元の次元ごと滅ぼされていた。それほどまでに、この三勢力 は比類なき武威を誇っていたのだ。

There were other factions that tried to invade from different dimensions, but every one of them ended up having their entire home dimension erased by one of the three great powers.
That was the extent of their overwhelming, incomparable might.

As you can see, the context here suggests the total annihilation of the invading forces as well as their whole dimension. Here destruction would mean it literally.

So he did destroy those Dimensions alright. There is nothing about Zalario needing to conquer dimensions and thus not destroying them like destroying a box. And fighting Cryptids is itself not about conquering them (they are mindless, literally) but destroying them/killing them outright.

Size of Dimensions - Small/Weak Worlds
In the downgrade thread, the size of dimensions was also argued upon. The main arguments are summarized below:

• In Velgrynd's journey, it was said that a True Dragon can destroy a world if they fully unleash their strength.
• Official Translation calls them "Small Worlds", while Slimereader calls them "Weak Worlds".

Spoiler: Problems

Now, the OP argues that these refer to worlds that aren't Universal in size. However, this is contradictory with many things in-verse.

First off, according to our translation staff, the meaning of the kanji itself "often refers to power, but can refer to small size, All depends on context however". For anyone wondering about the raws, here:

〝竜種〟が全力解放すれば吹き飛ぶような弱小世界もあれば、覚醒魔王に匹敵するほどの天使や悪魔が、恒常的に争いを繰り広げている荒廃した世界もあった。
Per what dictionary said, 弱小 can mean Puniness, Youth-ness or Fragility/Weakness of something. (Dictionary 1, 2). Basically it means Small-ness as in Weakness or Fragility of something rather than size; i.e., a weak person would be 弱小人

So it all boils down to context. And what is the context, you may ask?
Well, let's look at the immediate context of the statement:

Indeed, a wealth of civilizations could intermix in the physical worlds contained within vast spiritual realms. They could look familiar, all magic and swordfighting, or they could be bereft of magicules and locked away from all types of spells. Civilizations could be driven by a thing called science, and some of the less common realms featured human beings transformed into machines. Some worlds were small enough that a fully unleashed True Dragon could wipe them from existence; others were wastelands, fought over constantly by angels and demons with the powers of awakened demon lords.
OTL V17C2
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It was a material world within a great spiritual world of many different civilizations. From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.
Slimereader V17C2

So the context compares them as "weak/small" compared to "desolate worlds" where beings comparable to awakened demon lords are fighting. The context simply talks about the types of words, some weak/fragile (specifically ones without magic), and some strong, some where humanity has progressed a lot and in some not so much. It does not give any other context about the size of the worlds themselves.

Plus, the fact that those "small/weak" worlds are compared to worlds filled with strong beings like demon lord level entities, entails that they are talking about "strength" (weakness/fragility compared to stronger/more durable stuff).

Now, is that all the context? Obviously no. In fact, the entire chapter (which in this case, is the biggest chapter of the volume occupying like 70% of the whole volume) is about Velgrynd going to various worlds. And the whole plot is that most of those worlds are "weak" in strength compared to Velgrynd's original world (the cardinal world) because of having less magicules. (Magicules makes stuff harder to destroy and more durable).

Gensei and Kondo were pretty much equal in strength—but that strength was far below what Kondo had when she’d met him. When humans in physical space crosses between worlds, most will die from the resulting exposure to concentrated magicules. On rare occasions, however, the magicules can break down and reconstruct their bodies, making these humans tougher and more resilient.
OTL V17C2
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Gensei just shrugs off such comments. And Velgrynd quickly put together a theory. Gensei and Kondou are roughly equal. However, his strength was far less powerful than Kondou’s was when they first met. Most of the humans in the material world die from the dense concentrations of magical elements once they cross the world. But a few were reborn by remodeling, transforming their bodies into powerful beings. These were the otherworlders of Velgrynd’s homeland.
Slimereader V17C2

More statements about weak worlds and magicule concentration deciding the strength of the world itself::

At this point, Velgrynd, unlike Veldora, could maintain a steady cycle of magicules entirely within her own body. She didn’t need to replenish them from the air, and they were never expelled from her body.

That was a skill she’d learned as she traveled through all the diverse worlds she had seen. As a result, she wasn’t paying attention to this world’s magicule concentration, so she hadn’t picked up on that fact yet. It was normally impossible, after all, to go back the way you’d come when traversing worlds. Even if you had an Underworld Gate handy, you’d still be limited by the size of the portal. Someone like Velgrynd, who could use her Dimensional Leap skill with no limitations, was a blatant exception to the laws of nature.

Therefore, compared to the magicule-rich environment in which Velgrynd was born, the standards for “strength” in this world were quite low. She did not have to wait long to see this for herself.
OTL V17C2
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Unlike Veldora, the current Velgrynd completes her own mana circulation. It does not need to be replenished from the atmosphere and does not leave her body.

This is a skill I learned when I crossed various worlds, that’s why I was unaware the concentration of monsters and magic in this world. In the first place, crossing over worlds would normally be impossible. Even through the ‘Underworld Gate,’ you are limited by the size of the gate. A person like Velgrynd, who can use ‘Spacetime Leap’ without any restrictions, is outside the laws of the world.

Thus, compared to Velgrynd’s magic-filled homeland, the standard of strength in this world was far inferior. That would soon be revealed.
Slimereader V17C2

Right, right, I forgot about that. The magicule counts on this world are so weak. It must be hard to cast any sort of spell, and magical body enhancement likely hasn’t advanced much. If that was powered entirely by his natural strength, he honestly deserves praise for producing that much force.
OTL V17C2
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That’s right, I’ve forgotten. This world is very low in magic. That’s why it’s harder to cast a spell, and the level physical strengthening is low. Their physical strength is innate, so it’s rather amazing that they can even be this powerful.
Slimereader V17C2

“You should be proud,” Velgrynd said to him with a smile. “There are hardly any magicules in this world, and you still attained that much strength. I doubt many others here have come even close to it. If you could only take in more magicules to upgrade your body with, you might’ve made it to Saint level, to say nothing of Enlightened. That is a pity, certainly.” “Enlightened? Ah, that is a faraway goal for me.”
OTL V17C2
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“You should be proud of yourself. In a world where there is little to no magic, few people can reach that level of strength. If you could have taken in some magic element and sublimated your body, you could have become not only an Immortal but a Saint. It’s too bad about that.”
Slimereader V17C2

The amount of magicules affect not just strength but the physical laws too, which as a result also reduces the strength of the world. Physical laws differ between worlds, and thus so does the strength of the worlds themselves.

“Don’t get so full of yourself, Delia! This world exists in physical space, full of possibility. With the right number of magicules, things can change in every which way. We yohma only become complete once we obtain physical bodies. I want you to make sure you don’t forget that!”

Delia, after that tirade, realized he was right. This world was inferior in terms of pure strength, but that was only because its physical laws differed from the ones they were familiar with. She admonished herself not to forget where she stood until this invasion was over.
OTL V17C2
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‹Don’t flatter yourself, Delia! This is the material world. You don’t know what kind of change you can cause by giving one magic. I feel my strength growing every day. This is proof that this body is superior. Only in this body can we demons attain perfection. Don’t you dare to forget that!›

Angered, Delia was reminded of the truth. This is a lesser world in terms of strength alone, but that’s because the laws of the world are different. Delia cautioned her mind that she must not forget her position until the invasion was complete.
Slimereader V17C2

“What? So the humans are tricking us?”
“…No, I don’t think so. I considered the possibility that it’s some kind of camouflage spell unique to this world, but nothing like that would ever work against any of us officer ranks.”
“I agree. No one on this low-level world could ever threaten us, no matter how much they struggle.”
OTL V17C2
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‹What did you say?! You think the humans can deceive us?›
‹—No, I think not. I thought it might be some kind of magic trick that only exists in this world, but I don’t think it would work against a high-ranking officer.›
‹I agree with you. The low-level people of this world are of no threat to us, no matter how much they try.›
Slimereader V17C2

So in conclusion? Basically it's all the more so "weak world" and not "small world" based on the context. There are plenty of more similar statements that show what "weak worlds" mean, but I think these many should be enough for now.

"Small worlds" in this context just doesn't make sense, this is especially true when Universes (contained within worlds) are expanding at beyond the speed of light:

Even within the same universe, space expanded faster than light. The resulting correlation between time and space was beyond Mai’s understanding, and without that, the probability of reaching the exact time and place where her brother was alive and well was infinitely close to zero.
OTL V21C4

同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつけ る確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。
JP RAWs

RAWs say "Universe of the World". Confirmed by @MrTayman616

Note how it says "even within the same universe (or universe of the same world)", which means this doesn't apply to one world, but all worlds, especially when the surrounding context is Mai talking about not being able to go to other worlds and dimensions.

Mai had an essentially infinite lifespan now, but even then, she had to write it off as undoable.

Every dimension, after all, ran on its own temporal axis. If two worlds ran on synchronized axes, there’d be no time difference if you jumped between them—but in reality, this wasn’t something to expect.

Even within the same universe, space expanded faster than light. The resulting correlation between time and space was beyond Mai’s understanding, and without that, the probability of reaching the exact time and place where her brother was alive and well was infinitely close to zero.

If Mai had more power, maybe she could leap through time and space at will. If she was a True Dragon, for example, she could just do that for as long as it took. But it wasn’t possible for her. That’s just the way it was. Since she had made that leap just now with all her might, she was unable to read any information about her current location. Whether she escaped from Vega or not, any sort of return was hopeless now.
OTL V21C4

Now, is this the only statement? Not at all, in Volume 22, we're even given a practical example of a random universe of a world unrelated to the cardinal world expanding (aka space expanding) before the world ends as a space-time continuum (space and time collapse on themselves and cease to exist):

There’s a saying: ‘You can’t see even an inch ahead.’
And truly, everything beyond the Barrier was an unknown world.
Sometimes they could see rainbow-colored lights shining far away, but everything between here and there was completely invisible.
A rainbow-colored sphere expanded nearby, then burst and vanished.
Volume 22, Chapter 3
Source

“Hm. I’ve been watching for a while, and did you notice?
Just now, that rainbow-colored sphere swelled up and vanished, right?
I’m pretty sure that was one world… maybe even an entire universe.”
“A universe…?”
“A whole world seriously…?”
Volume 22, Chapter 3
Source

“Inside that sphere, time is flowing.
It even creates a slow ripple of time in the surrounding area, but… we can’t observe it at all.”

Strictly speaking, time was passing.
But since there was no way to measure it directly, Yuuki had relied on clues like the fact that he never felt tired or hungry, and concluded that time either wasn’t moving, or was moving extremely slowly.

Yuuki couldn’t interfere with infons, nor could he observe them.
Everything he thought was only conjecture
Yet even so, his genius let him arrive at the right answer.
Volume 22, Chapter 3
Source

The ball that was the world, after appearing, "swelled up" (or alternatively, expanded) before disappearing, proving the expansion of space applies to all worlds, not just the cardinal world, through a practical example. The Kanji used is "膨らみ", which means "to bulge, to swell up, etc. (Dictionary 1, 2) which is basically "to expand" (English dictionary).

So the size of the universe of a world is, in all cases, Universal, not "small" or anything on that line of thought.

Size of Dimensions - Solar System and/or Planetary AP
So in the downgrade thread, the OP argued that only Solar System or less AP is needed to destroy worlds and/or dimensions, which can be summarized as follows:

• Velgrynd as a True Dragon can easily blow away a Weak World.
• Velgrynd is far superior to Zalario in strength as a True Dragon.
• A so-called "Solar-System at best" attack surpassed Velgrynd's strength completely.
• Carrera, who's Abyss Annihilation attack that rivaled Velgrynd, was stated to be capable of destroying a planet.

Spoiler: Problems

So first off, the context of the solar system statement was CLEARLY referring to the "Surface" as you can see here:

The abandoned Floor 30 in the middle of it had been forced out of existence the moment it contacted all that energy. If this sort of vicious attack had ever been tried on the surface of the planet… Well, it would likely erase the whole thing, along with the solar system it was in. They had truly outclassed the power of Velgrynd with this one, these four giants combining their powers to create a synergy that produced unimaginable results.
OTL V21C4
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It can be said that it was fortunate that this place was an alternate dimension. If this had been inside a labyrinth, how many levels/layers would have been caught up in it was beyond imagination.
"…Um, this is bad, you know?"
Ramiris let her true feelings slip out.
The "discarded thirty levels" at the center of the destruction vanished in an instant from the energy of the destruction. If such a viciously powerful technique had been used on the surface…
Even a planet would disappear, and even the solar system would likely be swallowed up.
Indeed, it was a destructive power that completely surpassed even Velgrynd's strength. The quartet skill, the four-fold composite ultimate skill by the four higher beings of this world, produced unimaginable results through the synergistic effect.
TL by Staff

However, as you can see in the downgrade thread, the OP only bolded the part saying "a planet would disappear' and not the immediate line before it that says "had it been used on the surface". That changes the whole context. Plus "a planet" and "the planet" have the same kanji in Japanese, so the line can also be:

had been used on the surface, even the planet would disappear, and even the solar system would likely be swallowed up"

Because it has been clarified that "the surface" refers to the Cardinal Planet on many, many instances:

With the infinite stores of energy this unlocked for him, Vega was as good as invincible. If he had taken in the skill driving the labyrinth as well, it would’ve been perfect—otherwise, he could just drain all its energy and reduce it to a spent pulp. Then the enemy would lose their own immortality! They’d try to flee in a panic, no doubt, but there was nowhere safe on the surface for them. Vega didn’t even have to worry about them, then—Feldway would take care of the rest for him.
OTL V21C2
Note: Right now Feldway is on the planet's surface, so obviously "the surface" would refer to the cardinal planet.

That, however, was not Zegion’s problem. The only reason he hadn’t attacked Vega yet was because he was waiting for Ramiris to fully seal off this section of the labyrinth. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have let this disrespect go unaddressed. This wasn’t Floor 80, so normally he wouldn’t be managing this area in the first place, but during this emergency, the rest of the floor guardians had been summoned to the surface to join the war. He was holding down the fort for them, and that was a serious responsibility. This labyrinth was something they had to protect, and anyone looking to trash the place wasn’t about to escape punishment. A piece of garbage like Vega doing whatever he wanted in here was usually unthinkable.
OTL V21C3
Note: The war is happening on the cardinal planet mainly, so obviously Surface would refer to the Cardinal Planet

Maintaining the status quo, in other words, was his best option. Even if he couldn’t defeat Zeranus, Benimaru was waiting in the wings. Zegion was likely to come back soon as well, and the rest of Tempest’s best were healing up as well. The Control Room was recording every aspect of this fight, so they could refer to the tape for next time. That was certainly one way to picture things…but even then, Diablo saw a rocky road ahead.

Zeranus’s strength was simply abnormal. He was almost treading into divine territory. If they started staging total war, it might have been possible to beat him, but if they moved up to the surface to fight it out, it’d lead to staggering losses. They might not have had a choice, though—the labyrinth seemed to be collapsing in on them. If that happened, the scale of the damage would be immeasurable. Rimuru would be so disappointed when he came back.
OTL V21C3
Note: The "staggering losses" are there because inside the labyrinth, they have the advantage of being able to revive infinitely no matter what happens, something not possible on the "Surface" (outer world/cardinal planet).

What’s more, Deeno had put himself through the process of Apotheosis. This was a feat that allowed a divine authority to be housed within a physical body. Deeno, Pico, and Garasha had all set limits on their bodies while they were active on the surface of the planet. They had never released these limits before, so not even Deeno was sure what would happen—but he decided to do it anyway.
OTL V21V4

So yes, when "on the surface" is being talked about as a place (and not as in on the apparent side like "on the surface, it seems true, but it was false in truth"), it refers to the cardinal planet. And in this case, the spell's results are IF it was used on the cardinal planet.

And that literally goes consistently with everything, since as of that point in the novel (V21C4), no one had successfully destroyed the cardinal planet because of the divine tree. Yet it would bypass even that. The Divine Tree could only be destroyed by Milim's Drago Nova, which itself is capable of destroying the whole Universe.

Cardinal Planet being created by Veldanava's (assumingly special) power:

As Guy explained, this planet was created through the power of Veldanava and therefore wasn’t going to be catastrophically torn apart or anything. But Milim’s power was still rising, and if left unchecked, she’d encase the whole planet in a thick layer of contaminating magicules.

…Well, if there’s still gonna be a planet at the end of the day, then great. And I guess it made sense. After all, even Carrera’s magic wasn’t the sort you should really use on the surface of a planet. We only got away with it because we were on a world that could withstand such lethal force. Otherwise, at best, some attack from her would’ve bent the axis of the planet by then.
OTL V20

The Divine Tree and Skyspire Tower (also called Heavenly Tower) protects it from ever being destroyed:

Ciel’s being so vague about this, I suppose the strategy had little chance of success. Frankly, it would have been crazy to go through with it.

But if that was the case, there was no point in worrying about the “why” of it. What about the “sacred tree” Feldway set as Milim’s goal?

This is a divine tree that protects the capital of the Sorcerous Dynasty of Thalion. It is a tree so large it can hold a giant city. It also seems to play the role of stabilizing the magicules in this world, preventing natural disasters. (Ciel speaking)
OTL V20

Zarario looked behind him. There was the sacred tree, standing in this land since time immemorial. Rooted deep in the earth, it protected the planet from all kinds of natural disasters—and it was still standing strong, even after taking all of Jahil’s flames. It is the same tree that kept the past Milim/Guy battle from being any more damaging.
OTL V20

But if you looked at it another way, that was the only damage that resulted last time. This world was protected by gods who put up many obstacles to destroying it. Guy, the great Arbitrator, was the best example— feared by mankind as the strongest and most terrifying of demon lords, but still constantly protecting this world, as per his pact with Veldanava.

Several beings helped him with this role. There were the demon lords selected by Guy, including Ramiris, the other Arbitrator. There were the Heroes, their nemeses and counterparts—and now there was Masayuki, the reincarnation of the most powerful Hero there ever was. Velgrynd was with him, too.

Apart from these, there were relics like Skyspire Tower, influenced directly by the hand of these gods, which also offered the people their protection. The sacred tree was another such relic.
OTL V20

That's why Feldway ordered Milim to destroy it, because he couldn't do it himself even tho he could destroy the Cardinal World's Universe as a "Timeline" after the Tree was destroyed.

That is correct. Via Feldway’s Chrono-Saltation, we have been sent to the far reaches of time and space. Here, the stars had long since exhausted their natural lifespan, but the world itself had not yet collapsed. It is presumed that Feldway’s power was limited strictly to destroying the universe of the key world.
OTL V21 Epilogue

“Tch! You came sooner than I thought. But it’s too late. Milim! Use your power to shatter the sacred tree in our way!”
OTL V20

His rule over Milim was likely too unstable for him to focus on anything else. Or perhaps he wanted to prioritize the destruction of the sacred tree.
OTL V20

Feldway wanted to revive Veldanava, but he failed after losing Michael. If so, what he’ll want next is…

Zarario felt a chill run down his spine. Maybe he would want to destroy this world.

There were only two holy relics left in this world: the sacred tree and Skyspire Tower. There was also the labyrinth created by Ramiris, but that should be considered its own separate category.
OTL V20

“M-me…?” Veldora sounded terribly aggrieved by this, but he was ignored. “
So once this darkness goes away, you’re going over to the divine tree.”
“Wait, what?!” Veldora balked.
“Yes, the divine tree. Feldway probably wants Milim to destroy it.”

Feldway had failed at it once, but he hadn’t given up yet. Now that he had regained full control over Milim, he had no reason to sit idle. And that was the “thorny problem” Velgrynd had in mind—Milim and her group were on their way to their next destination.
OTL V21

Between destroying the gate and trying to destroy the divine tree, there was just one thing Feldway could be aiming for. He had no intention of respecting anyone else’s territory from the get-go—or really, he had no reason to. If this planet was wiped out, all territorial disputes would cease to matter
OTL V21

The planet was even being protected by other characters' barriers:

I had seen my fill on the way. The only reason this planet was still safe was because of Velgrynd offering to help. She was worried the planet would be in a state of chaos if things continued as they were, so she came all the way over for me. I supposed Velgrynd wouldn’t like it much if this world fell apart, either, so I didn’t really need to thank her that much—but then, if it did, she could just do one of her Trans-Dimensional Leaps, right?

Not that I was gonna turn down her help, but… She told me she’d left a Separate Body by Masayuki’s side, so the Velgrynd I saw contained just 70 percent of her power. Even so, it was helping me enough, and I was relying hard on it. I suppose that’s why I dared to ask Velgrynd: “Hey, not to get too greedy, but is there any way you might be able to keep that sacred tree from getting damaged?” The results were about what I figured.

“You’re as silly as ever, aren’t you? Milim isn’t even trying, but I’m working my hardest keeping a Star Barrier going, you realize. And even then, she’s still causing tons of damage. She can work directly with stellar particles, you know. And there’s no such thing in this world as a barrier that can absorb a Drago-Nova head-on.”
OTL V20

Milim explicitly tried to destroy it with Drago Nova:

The same attack that had destroyed the Cardinal World's Universe in V21 once before, and was about to do the same again. And as said, the Sacred tree could only be destroyed by Milim's Drago Nova:

戯れるように[竜星爆炎覇][ドラゴ・ノヴァ]が連発されて、基軸世界があっという間に崩壊してしまったのだ。

And playfully, almost teasingly, she unleashed Drago Nova after Drago Nova, and just like that the Prime World crumbled in no time at all.

少なくとも、ミリムが神樹を破壊するまでは……。
（私の力で神樹を破壊出来れば、ここまで面倒な手を打つ必要はなかったのだがな……）
神樹は、この基軸世界の要となる重要拠点だ。その防備は万全であり、生半可な力では破壊不可能だった。
絶大な力を有するフェルドウェイであっても、神樹の完全破壊は不可能だったのだ。
エルフ達の国──サリオンは亡ぼせても、神樹そのものを破壊出来るのは、ミリムの[竜星爆炎覇][ドラゴ・ノヴァ]だけなのである。

At least until Milim destroyed the Divine Tree…

(If I’d had the power to destroy it myself, I wouldn’t have had to go to all this trouble…)


The Divine Tree was the linchpin of this Cardinal World, a critical stronghold. Its defenses were flawless, and no ordinary power could bring it down. Even someone as overwhelmingly strong as Feldway couldn’t completely destroy it.
Sure, he could wipe out the elves’ nation of Sarion, but destroying the tree itself? That was something only Milim’s Drago Nova could accomplish.

Even more so, it's not just the Cardinal Planet inside the Cardinal Universe that's harder to destroy. The whole World is harder to destroy. Why, you may ask?
For a variety of reasons:
Laws:
As you know, each World (as a Universe/more than that) has different Laws:

A single world was self-enclosed; there was no such thing as parallel worlds, but there were so-called “other worlds,” residing in alternate dimensions. That much Velgrynd already knew thanks to the otherworlders she had met, but she hadn’t imagined the sheer number of other worlds out there, and their sheer diversity. They could run on completely different laws, or be unbound by the rules of karma.
OTL V17C2
_______________

There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds. There were ‘otherworlders,’ so she was aware of that fact, but Velgrynd had never imagined that there were so many different worlds. They were governed by completely different laws, and there was no causality.
Slimereader V17C2

And said Laws decide the "Strength" of the world (which as discussed earlier defines whether a world is "weak" and can be erased by a true dragon easily or the opposite). This is because the Laws of the weak world differ from the Laws of the Cardinal World:

“Don’t get so full of yourself, Delia! This world exists in physical space, full of possibility. With the right number of magicules, things can change in every which way. We yohma only become complete once we obtain physical bodies. I want you to make sure you don’t forget that!”

Delia, after that tirade, realized he was right. This world was inferior in terms of pure strength, but that was only because its physical laws differed from the ones they were familiar with. She admonished herself not to forget where she stood until this invasion was over.
OTL V17C2
_________________

‹Don’t flatter yourself, Delia! This is the material world. You don’t know what kind of change you can cause by giving one magic. I feel my strength growing every day. This is proof that this body is superior. Only in this body can we demons attain perfection. Don’t you dare to forget that!›

Angered, Delia was reminded of the truth. This is a lesser world in terms of strength alone, but that’s because the laws of the world are different. Delia cautioned her mind that she must not forget her position until the invasion was complete.
Slimereader V17C2

Energy:
Even from external perspective outside the Universe, one can identify the Universe based on the Universe's energy level. And yuuki in this case concluded that the world they are observing was not the Cardinal World because the energy level was so different:

『それじゃあ、あの虹色の光球のどれかが、私達がいた世界なの？』
『違うと思うぜ。アレは派生世界なんだと思う。光球の発生から終焉まで、全てマチマチだしね』
観測出来るエネルギー量から考えても、ここで観測可能な光球はユウキ達がいた世界とは無縁の場所だろうと思われた。

(In the first place, the fact that three people are here, it somewhat bothers me. A space-time storm? Encountering such a phenomenon as rare as the creation of the universe, as well as surviving it safely, luckily being sent to a place where an acquaintance is there’s no way that’s mere coincidence.
That is certain.
Someone's --- or rather, there is only one person that comes into mind--- intervening, thinking that way was reasonable.
Translation by @MrTayman616

All of this makes it obvious that:

• Things are far harder to destroy in the Cardinal World.
• The Cardinal World has an extremely high concentration of magicules, thus making it harder to destroy.
• One of the branched world that Yuuki observed while in the World-Gap was thought to be completely unrelated to the cardinal world due to the amount of energy that observed Universe as a whole was giving off.
• The Laws of the Cardinal World differ from weak worlds and ordinary worlds, making the concept of 'strength' in the cardinal world far higher.
• It is created by Veldanava's (assumingly special) power.
• It is protected by the Heaven's Tower/Skyspire Tower and the Sacred/Divine Tree, which cannot be destroyed by Feldway's power that can destroy the Universe of the Cardinal World after the sacred tree was destroyed by Milim (from V22, we know that "Universe" refers to the bubble that is space and time itself, which will be discussed later as well), and can only be destroyed by Milim's Drago Nova, which can destroy the entire Cardinal World (or at least one of its Universes/Timelines, which is more narratively consistent).

All of these are far, far sufficient to conclude that the Cardinal Planet alone has durability more than a frickin' world.

Breakdown Nostalgia
So basically, there's also the thing about how the greatest feat since Volume 21 (not including V22), aka Breakdown Nostalgia, has such a low "Range" (Solar System) despite being able to destroy 2-C durability cardinal planet and more. Well, here's the thing:

Spoiler: Not Range

Indeed, it's not even a range feat, it's purely an AP feat. Let's look at the statements that prove that. First off, the entire thing is enclosed in a barrier, and the energy CANNOT leak outside that:

That’s why he was the first to jump into subspace. Zegion arrived soon after, located on the opposite side from him. Benimaru had the least experience with this, so he was still positioned pretty close to the safety zone. Diablo, meanwhile, had showed up way in the back, the most dangerous place to be. From Deeno’s point of view, they had formed an equilateral triangle, and to the outside observer, they had formed a four-sided pyramid with Deeno on top and the other three below.

Everything was ready.
This ritual required at least four people to work. Ramiris was the one who suggested it, since they had a quartet, and Diablo was all
“keh-heh-hehheh-heh, how interesting” in response. Zegion silently agreed as well, with Benimaru and Deeno saying yes to it a beat later. However, this ritual was just as dangerous as the place they were in.

Ignoring Diablo for the moment, it’ll be with Zegion and Benimaru, huh? Wow… The magicules are rising again, aren’t they? (Deeno's thoughts)

He had seen Zegion in the previous battle, so he could understand him, although he wish he didn’t. But now, at some point, Benimaru had become as powerful as Deeno in “serious” mode, too. He wondered why but didn’t have the energy to bring it up. Instead, he focused on the plan.

“Careful, now!” came an anxious warning from Ramiris. The real show would begin once everyone had reached their designated positions. Two people could connect the dots between each other to create a one dimensional line, three would create a two-dimensional plane, and four would make a three-dimensional space.

Each of them stood at a vertex of this pyramid, their target point in the center. What they were trying to do, in other words, was to have each person smash their finisher move from the edges of the completed pyramid into the abandoned Floor 30 perched at the center. It was much more than a layered magic circle—instead, they were forming a three-dimensional spatial magic circle.

But this is gonna take an insane amount of power. Like, seriously.

Deeno held his breath. The more he thought about it, the more insane this felt. He had gotten carried away enough to play along with this, but now that he was more collected before the big moment, he was really starting to sweat the danger. The other three seemed a lot more enthusiastic.
OTL V21C4

There, in the abandoned part of the labyrinth, a colorless sort of polar light was blooming, bathing the subspace in dazzling hues. It was a beautiful and truly worthy tribute. But the power inside was greater than anything seen since the beginning of the universe, creating a truly calamitous amount of destructive force. This disaster filled the insides of the pyramid, constructed so as to keep the power from escaping.

Quartet Skill: Breakdown Nostalgia
OTL V21C4

As you can see, the skill requires 4 people, and the ritual involves forming a pyramid shaped barrier that keeps the energy from escaping and literally destroying everything. This also means the spatial magic barrier they formed has THAT much durability to be able to keep that insane amount of energy inside.
Even more so, each person aims their attack at the very center, and Diablo's attack was even stated to produce damage equal to experiencing the end of the world on a LOCAL scale:

“Got it. I’ll be going full power on this!”

He honed his spirit, focusing his entire consciousness so he could unleash the best blow possible—and at that moment, his six pairs of black and white wings began to shine. An immense power began to concentrate around his twin swords of golden holiness and dark depravity.
“Fallen Crusade!!”
The blades of white light and black shadow left afterimages in the air as they beautifully crossed each other at the center of the pyramid. Then, at that very moment, a garden of skills began to bloom with staggering intensity.

“Prominence Acceleration!”
“…End-of-World Requiem.”
“…Devastator Storm!”

Prominence Acceleration, released by Benimaru, required no introduction —it was, needless to say, his strongest technique.

Diablo’s End-of-World Requiem was the ultimate in illusory and elemental destruction magic, simulating the destruction of the world to cause catastrophic local damage. It was Diablo’s own invention, the most powerful of his secret Arts—a combination of skill, technique, and magic.

Finally, Zegion’s Devastator Storm was an even more vicious evolution of Dimension Storm, Zegion’s ultimate finisher that had been powered up by everything Zeranus had entrusted him with. Each of them had broken out the greatest power they could possibly produce. All these astounding techniques, released without a moment’s delay between them, reached the center of the pyramid at exactly the right moment, overlapping exactly with what Deeno released first.

So yeah, this is CLEARLY an AP feat more than anything, and its range is extremely limited (only solar system level) due to that pyramid (part of the attack itself) that prevents the energy from escaping.

Carrera's Abyss Annihilation
Now, regarding our nuke girl's Abyss Annihilation, an attack that could "rival" Velgrynd, the OP concluded it's only planetary because of this one statement:

Among the four Devil Lords (including Diablo), Carrera now boasted the largest magicule count. She hadn’t been able to fully control it before, but with Abaddon, that shortcoming was a thing of the past. The current Carrera, in fact, could manipulate magic to an extent that rivaled Velgrynd.
“Let me grant you perdition. Vanish before me! Abyss Annihilation!!”
This was an ultimate magic, surpassing even Gravity Collapse—the greatest and most powerful attack magic—and Carrera’s ideals in action. It worked by adding matter from the lowest of hellish abysses into a collapsed gravitational force field, generating an unfathomable torrent of extreme energy. It was, needless to say, extremely difficult to even point this energy at something, much less control it.
It wasn’t even meant to be invoked while standing on a planetary surface, but Carrera didn’t hesitate to whip it out. One mistake controlling it could wipe out an entire planet, in fact. She had never successfully pulled it off during her practice sessions in the underworld, and this was the first time she ever tried it in the material world. It had never worked before, but she still didn’t hesitate.
OTL V15C5
_____________

Of the four “devil lords” including Diablo, Carrera currently had the largest amount of magicules. She had never been able to control them completely, but now that she possessed the “Annihilation King Abaddon,” that drawback was gone. The current Carrera was able to control magic on a level comparable to Velgrynd.

“I’ll give you destruction. Now be gone! “Abyss Annihilation”!”

It was the ultimate magic that surpassed even “Gravity Collapse.” It was also Carrera’s ideal, the most powerful offensive magic.

It was a spell that generated an unimaginable torrent of extreme energy by throwing a substance called up from the abyss into a gravitational collapse force field. It went without saying that it was extremely difficult to control the energy, let alone make it directional.

It was not a spell that should be used on a planet, but Carrera had no hesitation in unleashing it. It was a spell that, if mis-controlled, could wipe out even the planet. The spell had never been used successfully in the underworld, and this was the first time it had been used in the material world. With no hesitation at all, Carrera used a spell that had never succeeded before.

Spoiler: Problems

As you can see, this is not referring to the amount of magicules but rather the magic control itself. Carrera's EP is around 10 million, while Velgrynd's is around 60 million, so comparing both to each other in terms of magic power is not consistent at all. What it IS saying, however, is that she can control magic as good as Velgrynd, basically. It refers to magicule control proficiency, not magicule count. Here's the RAWs if anyone wants to check em:

ディアブロを含めた四柱(よ に ん)の 〝悪魔王(デヴィルロード)〟の中で、今のカレラが最大の魔 素量(エネルギー)を誇っている。これまでは完全に制御出来なかったのだ が、『死滅之王(ア バ ド ン)王』を獲得した事でその欠点が消えている。
今のカレラならば、ヴェルグリンドに匹敵するほどの魔法制御が可能なのだ。

Now, what the scan is saying about her Ultimate skill helping her with magic control is indeed true, as it increases proficiency in specific:

The battles that followed offered a great many lessons. True Dragons, already the most powerful beings in the world, exhibited highly precise, sophisticated magic manipulation. That allowed them to fully overwhelm Ultima and the demonesses, despite their own magic skills. Ultima had no idea how Velgrynd pulled that off mid-battle, but now she did. The secret lay in applying an ultimate skill to your magic.

An ultimate skill gives you a lot more precision over your magic control, right? No wonder we couldn’t beat her at all.
OTL V15C5
________________

A True Dragon, which was known as the strongest beings in the world, performed an elaborate and sophisticated manipulation of magic power. As a result, that power had overwhelmed Ultima, a race that excelled in magic, with magic. She hadn’t known how that was possible while they were fighting. But now Ultima could understand. The secret was the act of adding an Ultimate Skill to magic.

By using an Ultimate Skill, the control of magic becomes more precise. No wonder we couldn’t beat her.

So here we're talking purely about preciseness in magic control when comparing Carrera's magic to Velgrynd, not RAW power/output.

Guy Crimson's World Destruction Feat
So in the downgrade thread, the OP did the following regarding the statement about Guy being able to destroy the world:

• Guy Crimson was stated by WoG to be able to destroy the world anytime he wanted but didn't do it.
• The OP decides to ignore this argument and classify it as "supporting evidence" at best because apparently, the original arguer (@CodeCCLL ) admitted it was contradictory to the plot.

Spoiler: Problems

So basically, the reason why it was ignored was because it was claimed as being contradictory to the plot by the original arguer. The reasoning was as follows:

Note: Fuse is referring to the Cardinal World here, but later wrote a story where even Satanael Milim couldn't destroy the Cardinal Planet, and even Feldway could only destroy the Cardinal Universe, and even Ivaraj, the Dragon who destroys worlds, couldn't destroy the Cardinal World. So this can only be used as a supporting.

However, this has some problems:

• Milim when using Satanael in the past did not do anything to the Sacred Tree nor the Heavenly Tower, so the Cardinal World was protected by them. Ramiris also intervened and absorbed Milim's and Guy's released energy, again saving the cardinal planet and world from destruction.
• Feldway could only destroy the Cardinal Universe after the Sacred Tree was nuked by Milim in the original timeline, since he himself said he can't destroy the sacred tree.
• It wasn't that Ivarage "couldn't" destroy the Cardinal World, it was that she didn't want to or did not do it for some other reason. Velgrynd herself said Ivarage could destroy the cardinal world in an instant.

Not good. I can even detect Ivalage over there. We’ll need to build a full defensive line or else the whole world could be destroyed in an instant…

• Ciel said she didn't know what Ivarage did, but at least the world wasn't destroyed. That doesn't mean Ivarage couldn't destroy it. It can also mean she simply decided not to, and that goes along with what Velgrynd said.

Ciel didn’t know exactly what had happened in that timeline, however. By the time it had been thrown over here, everything had already ended. We didn’t know what happened to Ivalage or how things had worked out at all, but what’s certain is that the world did not end. I’m not entirely sure if that’s what Feldway wanted, but it didn’t really matter anyway.

Also, Primordial Demons from hell can use Abyss Magic/Nihility Magic. That alone was stated by Feldway and the narrator to be capable of destroying the world many times, even if the Divine Tree itself still exists:

But there also existed a dark magic version of Disintegration, its counterpart of sorts—a fact known only to a very limited number of people. This was Nihilistic Vanish, a spell of the type Ultima and her demon cohort specialized in. A truly terrifying magic, it consumed its targets using the emptiness welling up from the underworld—and what was more, this magic worked in a wider range than Disintegration. In this case, Gadora had worked the spell so its area of influence expanded across the entire battlefield. Pouring all his magical power into Nihilistic Vanish, he managed to turn it into Nihilistic Parade, a new and wide-area annihilation magic.

Just as the caster intended, an extremely large magic circle appeared on the ground and in the sky. Then, as if connecting heaven and earth, bolts of dark electricity raced between them, releasing countless black spots in the air—the fangs of darkness, the devourer of all matter.

Gadora was releasing dark magic that manipulated emptiness itself, a forbidden skill if there ever was one. These voids, released into the worldlike this, did not disappear until the EP of their effects was reduced to zero. They filled the space between the magic circles, erasing all that existed inside. Any mistake in controlling this spell would result in this ultimate magic destroying the world.
OTL V20C3
_______________

This was the dark magic ‘Nihilistic Banish,’ which Ultima and others excelled at. It was a terrifying magic that devoured the target with the emptiness that came out of hell. Moreover, this magic’s range could be expanded. This time, Gadra had set the area of influence as the entire battlefield. He exerted all his mana into ‘Nihilistic Banish’ and completed it as ‘Nihilistic Parade,’ the magic of wide-area extermination.

Just as the magician intended, an extremely large magic circle appeared on the ground and in the sky. Then, as if connecting heaven and earth, a dark electrical discharge commenced—countless numbers of dark spots were released. They were the fangs of darkness that devoured all matter.

It was the forbidden dark magic art, the manipulation of the forbidden void. The void unleashed in this world would not disappear until its negative energy was brought to zero. It filled the inside of the magic circle barrier that connected heaven and earth, causing it to disappear. It was one of the ultimate magics that could destroy the world if wielded incorrectly. As soon as the magic was invoked, Gadra smiled widely.
Slimereader V20C3

もしもの話だが、テスタロッサが制御に失敗した場合でも『虚無』が無尽蔵に溢れ出して、世界は拡大し続ける深淵に飲み込まれて崩壊してしまう事になる。

Even if Testarossa failed to control it, the Abyss of Hell would spill forth without limit, and the world would be swallowed by its ever-expanding depth, collapsing entirely.

そもそも『虚無』とは、世界を滅ぼしかねない破滅の力だ。
テスタロッサもそうだが、そんなに簡単に操れるような代物ではないのである。

After all, the “Void” is a destructive power capable of annihilating entire worlds. Testarossa wasn’t exactly a master of it, either it’s not something anyone can handle casually.

世界を滅ぼしかねないほどの『虚無』の暴走とは、地獄の深淵と繋がる〝扉〟を開かない限り有り得ないのだった。
逆説的に言えば──
テスタロッサやディアブロは、そんな〝扉〟を開いたという事になる。
世界を滅ぼそうとしているフェルドウェイからすれば、そのまま制御に失敗してくれるのが望ましい。そうなれば、神樹を破壊せずとも目的を達成出来るのだ。

A runaway surge of “Void” strong enough to destroy the world only becomes possible when one opens a gate connected to the Abyss of Hell.

In other words, Testarossa and Diablo did open such a gate.

From Feldway’s perspective since he intends to destroy the world he’d prefer if they simply failed to control it. If that happened, he could accomplish his goal without having to destroy the Divine Tree at all.

If anyone's wondering if Guy can use it or not since it's never directly shown, yes, he can, any Demon Royalty (basically seven "Kings of Demons" aka the Primordials") can use it:

Magic invoking the voids of hell should have been known only to demonic royalty. Who would spread those spells around? Out of the seven people who came to mind, Ultima felt like the prime suspect. Or maybe Raine. Mizeri was too sober-minded to do anything like that, and Guy, Diablo, and Testarossa were too sensible, so they could be ruled out. Carrera? Maybe, but Daggrull reasoned her lack of teaching ability would rule her out.
OTL V20C3
_______________

Only the kings of demons should know about the magic that invoked the emptiness of hell. As for the perpetrator who spread it, the one who came to mind the most out of the seven was Ultima. Or Raine. Mizeri was serious, so that wouldn’t happen. With Guy, Diablo, and Testarossa, these three surprisingly had common sense, so they were excluded from the list. Carrera…was a possibility, but Dagruel judged that she should be excluded because she was not good at teaching others. In that case, Ultima or Raine were the most likely suspects.

So there you have it, Guy (and all the other Primordials in that sense) can DEFINITELY destroy the world, regardless of whether the sacred tree is there or not. However, why they don't do it is simply because it's boring and would ruin all the fun for them.

Velgrynd affecting Parallel Spaces:
So in the downgrade thread, what the OP said regarding WoG can be summarized as follows:

• Velgrynd 'effecting' Other Worlds is in context to time travel and/or dimensional travel.
• It thus has nothing to do with being a world-destruction feat.

Spoiler: Problems

So there are a lot of things the OP ignores here, some evident from the very scans he's linking and some that have to do with the lore, not so evident.
First off, the very WoG, in the same answer, talks about world-destruction:

---Velgyrnd has the ability to travel through dimensions, and can even travel to parallel dimensions. But does this power ever affect other worlds?

Fuse: Strictly speaking, yes. But she has some control over it and tries to make it not have any effect on anything. Were it for Velzard, she would perhaps not cared about it. It's highly possible she would think it to not be of concern if the other person's world got destroyed. There is a clear difference those who can be considerate and those who can't.

As you can see, it is clearly also talking about world destruction. Now, on the other hand, the other things that OP ignores is how Time travel and Dimensional Travel works.

Dimensional Travel requires an insane amount of energy to perform. Thus why Mai thinks it would've been possible if she was born as a True Dragon:

Mai had an essentially infinite lifespan now, but even then, she had to write it off as undoable. Every dimension, after all, ran on its own temporal axis. If two worlds ran on synchronized axes, there’d be no time difference if you jumped between them—but in reality, this wasn’t something to expect. Even within the same universe, space expanded faster than light. The resulting correlation between time and space was beyond Mai’s understanding, and without that, the probability of reaching the exact time and place where her brother was alive and well was infinitely close to zero.

If Mai had more power, maybe she could leap through time and space at will. If she was a True Dragon, for example, she could just do that for as long as it took. But it wasn’t possible for her. That’s just the way it was. Since she had made that leap just now with all her might, she was unable to read any information about her current location. Whether she escaped from Vega or not, any sort of return was hopeless now.
OTL V21C4
______________

時間軸を同期させた状態の世界間なら、次元跳躍しても時差はない。しかし現実的には、そういう現象は期待出来なかった。
同じ世界の宇宙でさえ、光速を超える速度で空間は膨張を続けているのだ。時間と空間の相関性など、マイの理解の及ぶ範囲にないのである。まして、愛する弟が生きている時間と場所に辿りつける確率など、限りなくゼロに等しくあってないようなものだったのだ。
マイにもっと強力なエネルギーがあれば、時間と空間を跳躍する事も可能だった。それこそ〝竜種〟であれば、そのような無茶もまかり通らせられただろう。

Note: The RAWs mention "Dimension Leap" or "Leaping through Dimensions" requiring "More Powerful Energy" (Power = Energy).

In case of Dimensional Leap, it is required so to be able to cross into the Dimensional Wall surrounding the Dimension they want to go to:

Mai’s power—the evolved Tera Mater—gave her the skill Dimensional Leap. However, as she just said, it required a lot of data to work. It was possible to leap toward the wavelengths released by a living target, but if they existed in another dimension, it was impossible to reach them. Even if she knew the timeline, position data, and other information she needed for her target location, if there was a dimensional barrier separating her from it, she lacked the power to cross it at all.

This was why Mai gave up on returning to her original world. In some instances, it was possible to cross this barrier if you were just going to an adjacent dimension. It was a case-by-case thing, though. The “walls” in question could be of varying heights, so sometimes it wasn’t doable, no matter what. The only way around that was to find an Underworld Gate or some other rift and just explore, explore, explore.
OTL V21C4

Whereas as we know, if a True Dragon unleased all of its power, it could destroy a weak world. That's how much energy it takes to do Dimensional Travel, literally.
And even that energy required depends on the World they are travelling the time/space of.
For example, Rimuru could only do Dimensional Transfer/Space-Time Leap to the past of the cardinal world because he had enough energy to literally destroy and/or recreate the world:

After collecting and researching Mai’s powers, Ciel was pretty confident that it had succeeded in developing this all-powerful Time Warp ability. It was a pretty amazing ability, apparently.

Mai’s World Map served as a sort of prototype; the Instant Motion skill contained within it, although incomplete, was a huge mass of potential.

The real essence of it, according to Ciel, wasn’t the ability to freely revisit places you’d been to before. It was more like crossing all of space and time to reach whatever place you desired. Mai just lacked the raw power to make the fullest use of it.

In my case, though, I had the cheat-level Dominate Dimensions, along with a new incalculably massive energy store, like Ciel mentioned a moment ago. Apparently, this was the exact environment I needed to exploit Time Warp to the hilt.
OTL V21 Epilogue

A great deal of time has passed, so the energy derived from the Void Collapse has accumulated to a massive extent. Veldanava lost Void Collapse when he created the world, but since you have Complex Space, that was not a problem. (Said by Ciel)

Not a problem how exactly? That sounded like a lot of problems to me. I guess my Complex Space was infinitely vast. It was filled to the point where I could rebuild the world thousands of times if I wanted to—but it still wasn’t full. I was wondering what that had to do with any of this, but then Ciel shocked me again.
OTL V21 Epilogue

Zeranus’s ability to deal with this was in itself amazing, but Zegion’s onslaught was simply beyond comparison. There was a good reason for it, too—he was circulating the energy from Void Collapse within his body, like blood. This power coursing in his veins was so dangerous, a single mistake in controlling it could very well destroy the whole world. The sheer force it conjured was terror in itself. Zeranus’s reaction speed just couldn’t keep up.
OTL V21C3

So yeah, from this, we can conclude that:

• For Time Travelling and/or Dimensional Leap, you need to have an insane amount of energy. And the amount of energy depends case-by-case on the world and/or Dimension they want to go to.
• Said energy has been consistently shown to be capable of at least destroying the world and/or Dimension they are performing Time Leap and/or Dimensional Leap in and/or to.

So yes, Velgrynd being able to affect the Other Worlds she can travel to is pretty much insofar as that she has enough energy to even destroy them.

More Statements
As most of the people reading this know already, Volume 23 was released yesterday, and oh boy it sure has some extremy blatant and useful statements. However, since it doesn't have accepted translations, I'll put the raws here and as they are translated, add them one by one.

Spoiler: Scans

Blatant statement that the Cardinal World's planet can withstand solar system level attacks as the Cardinal World itself is far superior to other worlds in terms of sturdiness.

それでも、被害は甚大だ。

〝八門堅陣〟という隔離された限定空間の中で、星系を破壊する規模の超絶エネルギーが荒れ狂った。

それは想像を絶する威力で、基軸世界という他の次元とは隔絶した強度を誇る舞台でなければ、〝八門堅陣〟どころか星そのものが跡形もなく消し飛んでいたはずだ。

Another blatant statement about the existence of branching worlds derived from a single world (cardinal world), so many that observation can't keep up.

オベーラやザラリオと違って、フェルドウェイと一番近い思想の持ち主だった訳だ。

全次元、全世界の完全支配は、まだまだ遠く道半ばだ。ヴェルダナーヴァが創った基軸世界から、観測が追い付かないほどの派生世界が誕生しているからである。

知性を獲得した人間達は、互いに刺激し合い予想も出来ない行動を取る。それを放置してしまえば、直ぐに相争い自滅への道を歩み始めてしまうのだ。

基軸世界から派生して幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てで似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。

それは、感情が原因である。

それから何度も調整を繰り返し、人類が望むべき姿になるように発展させようと試みた。

[数多(あまた)の他次元並列世界にて条件を細かく変更して、異なる進化を遂げさせたのだ。

Table of Contents (Addressing Future Tier)​

So now that all the necessary arguments are countered, it's time to move on to actually addressing what tier each structure will be.

Everything is in this sandbox:

Astral Trinity439/Tier 2

vsbattles.fandom.com

Summary:
The following is the summary of the cosmology:

• Universes: Low 2-C
• Parallel Worlds: 2-C minimum
• World-line: 2-C
• Dimensions: 2-C

Also, is it possible to get 2-B since the amount of parallel worlds is beyond what observation (of light spheres) can keep up with? Especially when they branch off minute details.
[Check the "more statement section for this.]

A separate thread will be made after this is accepted to give each character their respective tier!

Votes​

Agree:DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa (with everything), Reiner04 (Low 2-C Worlds/Dimensions), Vietthai96 (Low 2-C Worlds/Dimensions)
Disagree: Reiner04 (with anything above Low 2-C), Vietthai96 (With anything above Low 2-C)

Neutral/Miscellaneous: Antvasima (Waiting for @Mr. Bambu to give his thoughts, currently agrees with @Reiner04 but admits he didn't thoroughly read everything)

___________________________
That's all. I hope you had fun reading!
Until next time~

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

@DontTalkDT @Mr. Bambu @Agnaa @Planck69 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Celestial_Pegasus @Damage3245

 

[Elizhaa]

The tiers look fine.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I haven't looked over this, but it seems fair to extend posting permissions, as the OP requests, to those supporters mentioned.

@PrimeHydra64 @PHANtomFELdway @Community_Gamer @CodeCCLL @AlexSamDen

You have indefinite posting permission in this thread. This extends until rescinded by a staff member (so please, no incessant arguing).

 

[Antvasima]

We should give a similar allowance to the no side as well in that case, in order to not slant the discussion in one direction.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

I disagree with the statement "The universe is vast but not as vast as the Otherworld(s)" being linked to the WorldLine rather than the "Otherworld" where Ivarage was sealed and Obera was since in volume 23, it is said that it is vaster than the sum of many universes.

スイームは本来、数多(あまた)の宇宙を含めたよりも広大な異界の星間を泳ぐ。その最大戦速度は亜光速に達し、息をするように発生させられる〝異界門〟を通じて空間を跳躍する事で、無数の星間国家を滅ぼしている天災そのものだ。



〝異界門〟とは〝転移門〟の一種で、宇宙単位での超長距離移動を目的とした空間転移である。

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I disagree with the statement "The universe is vast but not as vast as the Otherworld(s)" being linked to the WorldLine rather than the "Otherworld" where Ivarage was sealed and Obera was since in volume 23, it is said that it is vaster than the sum of many universes.

Someone pointed this out a bit before, but I had to go sleep at that time.
Anyways, I'll address this with scans in a bit when I'm free, in about 3 hours.

On what you said, you're correct that it's that other world, but it still does serve as a general size measure for reasons I'll describe later.

---

@Mr. Bambu @Antvasima
Also, I'd like to ask if peole (me included of course) can argue with Japanese scans alone (no MTL attached), and will a staff come like in one of the previous thread and translate scans as the CRT progresses?

 

[Antvasima]

---

@Mr. Bambu @Antvasima
Also, I'd like to ask if peole (me included of course) can argue with Japanese scans alone (no MTL attached), and will a staff come like in one of the previous thread and translate scans as the CRT progresses?[/HR]

We extremely unfortunately have a very limited number of translation helpers right now, but I can ask them if they are are interested in helping out here.

@IdiosyncraticLawyer @RitsuØ1 @SeijiSetto @Agnaa @MrTayman616

Would any of you be willing to help out a bit here please?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I disagree with the statement "The universe is vast but not as vast as the Otherworld(s)" being linked to the WorldLine rather than the "Otherworld" where Ivarage was sealed and Obera was since in volume 23, it is said that it is vaster than the sum of many universes.

I'll address this with scans in a bit when I'm free, in about 3 hours.

for reasons I'll describe later.

Anyways so about this.
(To avoid confusion, If I use this term as Otherworld, I'm referring to the world that has this name, and if it's other worlds (space between), I'm referring to the general other worlds (world-lines) out there)

First off what is the Otherworld?

It's basically a home to aggressors, a race that exists in all dimensions, so there should be a version for it in all of them. It's similar to outerpsace in that it doesn't have any atmosphere in it, just large surfaces made of condensed Magicules:

The term yohma needed to be addressed, she thought. In her mind the term translated directly to “mystic,” and the mystics she knew were the ones led by Feldway, the mystic lord. They were part of the so-called Aggressors, races that exist in any and all dimensions, and they were an enemy Velgrynd had clashed with many times in her long journey. The idea of running into them yet again made her groan, but she still held out hope that these yohma were something else.
OTL
__________
Velgrynd can parse and speak any language from any world with fluency. It is a special skill that does not rely on authority because it can read the ‘thoughts’ that fly around in the world. However, some similar concepts can be confused, and care must be taken not to make a mistake. In this case, the word ‘demon’ is important. What Velgrynd knows is that it is a phantom race with the demon king Feldway at the top. He was an Aggressor tribe in every dimension and had many collisions with the Velgrynd throughout her long journey. Velgrynd was disgusted that he was there this time as well, but at the same time, she also considered the possibility that he might be different.
Slimereader
Volume 17, Chapter 2

In this other world, there was no such thing as gravity. There was no concept of “earth” or of “heaven,” making it quite similar to outer space in a way. All that existed in this empty space were objects composed of condensed magicules. These objects were as strong as magisteel—strong enough to generate their own powerful gravitational force, which was why they were turned into bases.
The mystics, as former angels, used these bases for habitation—so they could live as they did in their key world and not forget what life under the force of gravity was like. Obela’s base, comparable in size to an asteroid, was the stronghold for their anti-Ivalage efforts; its strength was unrivaled, and it was one of the most important parts of the mystics’ overall living space.
OTL
_________
In the Otherworld, there is no such thing as gravity. It is similar to outer space in that there is no concept of earth and sky. There are only objects made of condensed magicules scattered throughout the empty space. Such objects were as strong as magisteel, and generated powerful gravitational forces, so they were processed to be used as ‘bases’. The former angels, the Phantoms, used such bases to live a life similar to one in the Cardinal World, so as not to forget their lives in a gravitational field. The base of Obera, which was comparable in size to an asteroid, was the frontline base against Ivarage. Its strength was unrivaled by any other bases and was one of the most important facilities for the Phantoms. Michael jumped towards that base.
Slimereader
Volume 19, Prologue

But you see, the Otherworld overlaps with many other worlds:

In another world, order could be found—the semi-physical world that neatly overlapped the more spiritual realms, such as the elemental and demon worlds. This world, which never intersected with any other, was home to three major forces competing for total supremacy. One was the mystics, hatching grandiose plans to invade other worlds. One was the insectors, primarily occupied with expanding their own haven. Then there were the cryptids, wasting away their days with endless battle and destruction. Once, there was another force that had come from yet another dimension, but one of the other three had destroyed them and the dimension they came from—such was the extent of this trio’s unparalleled powers.
OTL
_______
There was order in the other world. It is a semi-material world that exists on top of the spiritual world so as to overlap the spirit world and the demon world. A world that never intersects. There were three major forces competing for supremacy.

The phantoms, who plot to invade other worlds. The insectars, who seek to expand their safe haven. And the cryptids, who spend all of their time fighting and destroying.

There were also forces that came from other dimensions, but they were all destroyed by one of these three forces. To that extent, these three forces boasted unparalleled military prowess.
Slimereader
Volume 16, Prologue

In Japanese, the the name of the other world is 異界(いかい). The Katakana is what tells it's not just a random other world but THE Otherworld.

異界(いかい)には秩序があっ た。 精霊界や悪魔界といった精神 世界に重なるように存在する、半 物質世界。決して交わらぬ世界。 そこでは、大きく区分して三勢力 が覇を競っていた。
V16 Prologue

But you see, most of the times it's just referred to as 異界, which is the same kanji used for all other worlds in general. That implied there isn't much of a difference that it needs to be distinguished. An example is the exact quote you gave:

スイームは本来、数多(あまた)の宇宙を含めたよりも広大な異界の星間を泳ぐ。その最大戦速度は亜光速に達し、息をするように発生させられる〝異界門〟を通じて空間を跳躍する事で、無数の星間国家を滅ぼしている天災そのものだ。

〝異界門〟とは〝転移門〟の一種で、宇宙単位での超長距離移動を目的とした空間転移である。

As you can see, no (いかい). And this applies to most mentions of Other World. At least, throughout V16, 17 and 23, the only time that katakana name was used was in V16 introduction.

Which is different when things actually need to be distinguished, like with Demon World and Cardinal World, different kanji is used every time.

And this backs up the fact that "Worlds" aren't "Universes". The Otherworld is shown as larger than a Universe, and the scan you sent specifically says it's vaster than the many Universes it contains.

But that much applies to all World-lines/other worlds in general. They aren't Universes, they are the container of all parallel worlds that follow the same Laws.

Cuz this is what my sandbox proposes:

The World, or World-line, refers to the set of Parallel Universes/Timelines that work on the same Laws, as opposed to Other Worlds that work on different Laws. Thus why they are also described as vaster than Universes.

This is why destroying a single Timeline/Universe itself does not destroy the World. For example, destroying the current Universe of the Cardinal World did not destroy the World itself. And this was done as a Timeline itself, that is, Ciel observed the destruction of the Universe from a place "Beyond Time", later also referred to as "Beyond Time and Space" (i.e., outside 4D time).

However, I'm completely fine if your intention of disagreeing is that we change the wording of the bolded line. For example, to something like this:

The World, or World-line, refers to the set of Parallel Universes/Timelines that work on the same Laws, as opposed to Other Worlds that work on different Laws. For example, one of the Other Worlds we have detailed information on is described as vaster than Universes, and also shown to contain many Universes (link to accepted translated version of the scan you sent).

How about that?

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Anyways so about this.
(To avoid confusion, If I use this term as Otherworld, I'm referring to the world that has this name, and if it's other worlds (space between), I'm referring to the general other worlds (world-lines) out there)

First off what is the Otherworld?

It's basically a home to aggressors, a race that exists in all dimensions, so there should be a version for it in all of them. It's similar to outerpsace in that it doesn't have any atmosphere in it, just large surfaces made of condensed Magicules:


But you see, the Otherworld overlaps with many other worlds:

In Japanese, the the name of the other world is 異界(いかい). The Katakana is what tells it's not just a random other world but THE Otherworld.

But you see, most of the times it's just referred to as 異界, which is the same kanji used for all other worlds in general. That implied there isn't much of a difference that it needs to be distinguished. An example is the exact quote you gave:

As you can see, no (いかい). And this applies to most mentions of Other World. At least, throughout V16, 17 and 23, the only time that katakana name was used was in V16 introduction.

Which is different when things actually need to be distinguished, like with Demon World and Cardinal World, different kanji is used every time.

And this backs up the fact that "Worlds" aren't "Universes". The Otherworld is shown as larger than a Universe, and the scan you sent specifically says it's vaster than the many Universes it contains.

But that much applies to all World-lines/other worlds in general. They aren't Universes, they are the container of all parallel worlds that follow the same Laws.

Cuz this is what my sandbox proposes:

However, I'm completely fine if your intention of disagreeing is that we change the wording of the bolded line. For example, to something like this:

How about that?

Yeah that is fine

 

[Antvasima]

We should give a similar allowance to the no side as well in that case, in order to not slant the discussion in one direction.

However, is there even any point in this being a staff thread if both the yes and no sides get free access to it anyway?

@Mr. Bambu

 

[AlexSamDen]

However, is there even any point in this being a staff thread if both the yes and no sides get free access to it anyway?

@Mr. Bambu

While it is true, I, as a member of the supporting team, would like to note that a portion of people mentioned don't actively argue, but rather support the arguers with necessary information and scans. The most active arguers are the OP and @PrimeHydra64 (and occasionally @CodeCCLL).
The reason for everyone mentioned getting a permission is to make it easier to inform staff of certain aspects and to manage the thread if the most active arguers cannot at the moment.
I cannot say the same for the opposition, however

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yeah that is fine

Alr. I'll change it to that. On a side note, until the scan you sent is translated, I'll link the last line to your post instead and add a reference note saying "to be translated".

However, is there even any point in this being a staff thread if both the yes and no sides get free access to it anyway?

@Mr. Bambu

It's because a MAJORITY of the posts in the old thread are simply people form both sides trolling or dissing each other.

See here and here as an example (I may remember it wrong but there were also a lot of posts deleted in those CRTs just because if that).

It being a staff thread not only prevents people from randomly coming to troll or diss each other but also giving both sides a sense of responsibility of not making small but large amount of posts just to address a single post from the other side. It also prevents multiple people from addressing the same argument in different ways.

After all, I don't want this to turn into a 10+ pages CRT where the staff doesn't even know where to start due to how many posts there are to read and evaluate.

 

[SeijiSetto]

We extremely unfortunately have a very limited number of translation helpers right now, but I can ask them if they are are interested in helping out here.

@IdiosyncraticLawyer @RitsuØ1 @SeijiSetto @Agnaa @MrTayman616

Would any of you be willing to help out a bit here please?

i believe idiosyncratic reads chinese, ritsu korean and agnaa left the TL team of his own accord because he considers his own knowledge insufficient
it's really just me and tayman

 

[Mr. Bambu]

However, is there even any point in this being a staff thread if both the yes and no sides get free access to it anyway?

@Mr. Bambu

Not really. I didn't really think this should be a staff thread, anyways. Presuming we oblige the OP, and give free posting rights to X users, I think your caveat to also give free posting to Y users is fair. The only group blocked are those broadly uninterested in the verse and thus not named. I suppose this gives us the ability to cut people off from posting if they prove disruptive, but if the situation became extreme, we can do that in other threads, anyways.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems fine then.

Who are the knowledgeable members on the no side?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Okay. I suppose that seems fine then.

Who are the knowledgeable members on the no side?

The ones who made the previous downgrade was @EldemadeDityjon, and he was the main arguer throughout the whole thread, so he should be given the right to post.

Other than him, I can't see anyone actively posting responses. The others just came at random instances and made one or two serious but smal posts, then disappeared or randomly appeared to make a joke.

 

[Antvasima]

@EldemadeDityjon

You can freely comment here if you wish.

Are there others on your side of the argument that you think would also be helpful here?

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Firstly, I got permission to post here from @Antvasima
Obvious to say, I disagree heavily with the OP

Zalario destroying Dimensions​

My first contention is the idea that Zalario ever did anything with the dimensions in the part you claim. You made the claim that he has nothing to do with the conquering of other dimensions and only the fact that he was tasked with keeping the Cryptids, it was the Insectars, at bay, which would be within Otherworld.

Spoiler: Zalario Destroys

Zalario, on the other hand, is tasked with keeping the Cryptids at bay, not letting them enter the Cardinal World. He himself has nothing to do with finding a suitable home for the phantom forces.

So how come in the next claim, you try to use context from Vol 16 Prologue that would have nothing to do with Zalario? Or maybe it does, but it also deals with the Mystics, Insectars and the Cryptids. Any one of those forces could've been responsible as a whole, yet you are trying to say Zalario himself did so one time or more? This had nothing to do with him individually and you even admit that his task was to keep cryptids at bay, so why would he himself go to dimensions that do not pertain to his mission, and destroy them?

Now, there's a contradiction between the two translations for the meaning. Thus we move on to the JP RAWs:

Next is this;

他の異次元から来訪する勢力もいたが、この三勢力のいずれかに よって元の次元ごと滅ぼされていた。それほどまでに、この三勢力 は比類なき武威を誇っていたのだ。

There were other factions that tried to invade from different dimensions, but every one of them ended up having their entire home dimension erased by one of the three great powers.
That was the extent of their overwhelming, incomparable might.

You try to say this can be translated to "erase" however 滅ぼす never can mean erase literally, least I have never seen anyone translate it this way nor is there reason to believe it could be. only to destroy; to overthrow; to wreck; to ruin.

So who verified this translation? And why translate it that way? Cause nothing there even insinuates erase.

Plus, both translations we have, Otl and Slime Reader, say the same thing pretty much.

Once, there was another force that had come from yet another dimension, but one of the other three had destroyed them and the dimension they came from—such was the extent of this trio’s unparalleled powers.
OTL V16 Prologue

There were also forces that came from other dimensions, but they were all destroyed by one of these three forces. To that extent, these three forces boasted unparalleled military prowess.
Slimereader V16 Prologue

They have basically the same meaning, (Forces/Factions) (came/invade) from another dimension, but (they/every one) (were/had been) destroyed.

The only difference is that Slime reader left out [元の次元ごと滅ぼされていた] which would relate to not just them, but the dimension they came from.

Both translators still translated 滅ぼす to the same thing, to destroy. And since there's no reason to have "erase" there, I would like a translator to verify the text, and maybe get a source on where you got that from.

Size of Dimensions - Small/Weak Worlds​

Other worlds/Weak worlds​

My next main contention, something I was not in these forums to argue at the time, are the sizes of these "weak worlds" or other worlds in general.

Spoiler: Other world sizes

In the downgrade thread, the size of dimensions was also argued upon. The main arguments are summarized below:

• In Velgrynd's journey, it was said that a True Dragon can destroy a world if they fully unleash their strength.
• Official Translation calls them "Small Worlds", while Slimereader calls them "Weak Worlds".

Strictly speaking, these "weak worlds" are just planets that have little magicules within them. I agree with OP in that manner, HOWEVER, they are just planets.

Other worlds in specific are planets, the core of this logic is the fact that even if Velgrynd was traversing dimensions, she was NOT referring to the dimensions/universes themselves, but the planets she visited.

Through it all, Velgrynd came to understand that there is no single world that Veldanava has created. He created many worlds. There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.
-Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2

This text above leads us to believe that other worlds are replacing the term "parallel worlds" as there are no parallel worlds, but other worlds. Keep this in mind.

From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.
-Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2

So Velgrynd remembered all worlds, all of Rudra. The fleet commander of the interstellar world. The minister of a small country in the world of swords and magic. The rare scammer in the world without magic. The poor scientist in the civilized world.
-Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2

"..familiar world where swords and magic are the norm," -> "...small country in the world of swords and magic."
"...world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used." -> "...rare scammer in the world without magic."
"...rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized." -> "...poor scientist in the civilized world."

Now perhaps these are talking about completely different worlds, and that may be true. But considering the narrative is discussing things like "countries" or "civilization" it would at least pose a viewpoint of specifically talking about the planet and it's environment. Right?

Well have you ever heard of an "interstellar world" being something larger than a planet? or somethin akin to it? Considering Interstellar literally means, "occurring or situated between stars," It's clear that one "world" is not talking about a dimension/universe/world-line. It's clear it's talking about something much smaller.

To support this argument, let's look back on parallel world vs other worlds.

And finally—
Humanity was born, interlocked in parallel worlds of other dimensions.
-Slime Reader Volume 16 Prologue

If they were in the same world, she could be sure that they were the same nation and the same person, but there are also similar worlds in other dimensions.
-Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2

...this also brought it in contact with many other worlds in many other dimensions.
-Otl Volume 21, Chapter 4

The focus here is that parallel worlds exist within Dimensions. Dimensions are universes, as the Op accepts via implication. If I need to prove why Dimensions = Universes, I can do so.

But with that understanding going forward, all this would mean are parallel worlds/other worlds are within universes. This means, they can't possibly scale to universal size or the size of dimensions, which supports my claim they are planets, and not Universes or dimensions.

This would all mean that "weak worlds" are just planets, since they fall under the "other worlds" category, which as I've proven, are all planets.

Other Dimensions Sizes​

Now when it comes to the sizes of dimensions, there are multiple dimensions that do not equal of the size of dimensions/universes. Such as;

Spoiler: Dimension Sizes

Walpurgis is the size of a meeting room;

The meeting seems to be in a different dimension,
...
The order of leading the demon lords into the meeting roomseems to be based on their experience.
...
Clayman leaves his seat and in a swoop as transforming the meeting room into his personal stage, he begins his speech.
-Slime Reader Volume 6, Chapter 5

Labyrinth top floor is the size of Tokyo Dome;

I lose control over my magi-bacteria when we change floors, which proves that the labyrinth is set up so every floor is in its own separate dimension.
-Otl Volume 21, Chapter 2

By the way, the first level of the labyrinth was square shaped, and the four sides were of 250 meters in length. It was large enough to rival Tokyo Big Egg (Tokyo Dome), but the deeper you went, the narrower it got.
-Slime Reader Volume 8, Chapter 3

Tengu Tribe Village is "tiny";

...arcadia that was the hidden residence of the tengu tribe—in other words, it was actually in a tiny alternate dimension.
-Slime Reader Volume 8, Chapter 4

And let's not forget the Heavenly Star palace, if it can be considered a dimension;

This is a special place, the place of beginnings, adjacent to all worlds but isolated from them as well: the Heavenly Star Palace.
...
The ‘Heavenly Star Palace’ is a very small flat world. It exists within the inner surface of a sphere, with the lower half being the earth and the upper half being the sky.
...
It is less than a hundred square kilometers in size, has only a temperate climate with no four seasons, and includes a beautiful chalk castle.
-Slime Reader Volume 18, Chapter 3

We could also talk about Isolated dimensions. They can exist inside the labyrinth, which I already proven was minor in size, and just be big enough to encompass a flagship;

"This flagship,” Velgrynd explained, “has now been isolated inside an alternate dimension of my own creation. If you want to escape, you will have to destroy all eight of these Gates.”
-Otl Volume 15, Chapter 4

No, it’s okay. Ramiris built her labyrinth using superior power that can isolate even dimensions.
-Slime Reader Volume 15, Chapter 4

So it's clear Dimensions can come in vastly different sizes, so what would "destroying" dimensions even mean in Zalarios, one off statement, that is never elaborated on again?

Zalario Destroys?​

My next part will discuss why Zalario Doesn't destroy entire dimensions, and It actually is supported by the fact of the OP bringing up Zalario's mission.

Spoiler: Zalario MIA

Firstly, we must understand that Zalario's first mention, is Volume 16 where this "destroying" statement comes from, meaning we have no prior information on Zalario except for his mission prior to entering the Labyrinth. Op brought it up, but Zalario's main mission prior to what we know, was to deal with fighting the Insectars, not the cryptids. And he has been doing so for tens of billions of years, so unless Zalario somehow had the ability to time warp, when no one in the verse could, I fail to see how he could've been apart of the dimension conquering plans or destroying the universe/dimensions, which still is contentious whether that means being erased or just fall to ruin.

- Slime Reader Vol 16 Prologue
The phantoms and the insectars began to fight each other, and the age of war, in the truest sense of the word, had arrived.
…
Many years had passed. But the situation remained at a standstill.

- Slime Reader Vol 18 Chapter 4
The fact that Zalario understood this made him even more annoyed.
“Shut up. Your advice is none of my business, so just shut up. Even if you weren’t worried, I’ve been fighting on the front lines against Insectars, the natural enemies of demons. You should know that someone like you who has been living comfortably on the surface is no match for me now!”

- Slime Reader Vol 20 Chapter 4
Zalario’s nemeses, the insectars, were covered with exoskeletons, so a normal sword would be damaged by repeated slashes. In order to prevent this from happening, Zalario had refined his technique to cut accurately at the enemy’s weakest points. Since time in the other world and the Cardinal World were different, Zalario felt as if he had been fighting for more than tens of billions of years. Despite this, his skill with the sword had plateaued because he specialized in the characteristics of insectar enemies.

Now this could've happened prior to Zalario being ordered to stand against the Insectars, but we still don't know who did what and which faction destroyed what dimension and how they did so.

Since there's no context to elaborate on the one off statement, we shouldn't use that as a core foundation for saying that Zalario can destroy entire universes in the literal sense. That is just a correlation equals causation, and there's no line of logic that would lead us to believe that to be the case, especially since he is comparable to beings weaker than Solar system attacks.

Over Solar System AP?​

Next thing is, you try to argue that Cardinal world and the solar system has durability, or "strength", that would boost the level of AP or DC needed to destroy such constructs to be much higher, but how much?

Did Feldway Destroy the Universe?​

You can't quantify how much more energy is needed to actually destroy a solar system or the planet, but you did try to.

Spoiler: No Uni Destroyer

That's why Feldway ordered Milim to destroy it, because he couldn't do it himself even tho he could destroy the Cardinal World's Universe as a "Timeline" after the Tree was destroyed.

This is completely misleading. Feldway DIDN'T destroy the Universe in the literal sense. Why? Well it implies such in the very chapter you are on.

- Ciel Otl Vol 21 Epilogue
That is correct. Time has stopped in this place. The expansion of space has also reached its end. The law of entropy has guided this universe into its final stasis.
...
That is correct. Via Feldway’s Chrono-Saltation, we have been sent to the far reaches of time and space. Here, the stars had long since exhausted their natural lifespan, but the world itself had not yet collapsed. It is presumed that Feldway’s power was limited strictly to destroying the universe of the key world.
...
After that, I wandered around in this space bereft of the twinkling of any star, and there I saw the end of the world.

It's clearly implied the Universe is still there and existing. So the "destruction", isn't in the literal sense of just gone, but ruined. The natural lifespan of the stars were "exhausted" meaning the the stars weren't destroyed by anyone, they simply lived their full lifespan, this has been implied to be following the Heat Death theory, which would showcase the fact, the universe is still there.

And even if that was the case, it was Ivarage who was the main force of destruction, not Feldway. If he was able to destroy the Universe but not the Planet, then why not just destroy the universe since it would result in the same goal of destroying the very thing you want destroyed so that Veldanava can remake it.

- Rimuru Otl Vol 21 Epilogue
I assumed Ivalage went on a rampage while I was gone, destroying the world the way Feldway wanted. But even if Ciel was telling me that didn’t destroy the world, I couldn’t really call this much better.

Spoiler: Mtl Vol 23

- Mtl Vol 23 Prologue
EDIT: ヴァラージェが聖遺骸を吸収した可能性の方が問題だった。
創造主の権能を得た可能性まであるとすれば、手が付けられない存在になってしまっている恐れがあった。
そうなれば、世界の再構築どころではない──のだが、フェルドウェイは『どうでもいいか』と笑った。

ヴェルダナーヴァが復活しないのなら、世界を滅ぼそうとしているのは、ヴェルダナーヴァを止めてくれるのでは、と考えたからだ。

もしも世界が滅んでしまったとしても、再生させる事も可能だ。
だから何も心配せず、もう一度最初から始めればいいのである。
If there was even a possibility that he had gained the power of the Creator, there was a risk that
he would have become an entity that could not be controlled.
If that were to happen, there would be no time to reconstruct the world - but Feldway laughed
and said, "Who cares?"
If Veldanava does not revive, then everything will be meaningless.
He was trying to destroy the world because he thought that Veldanava would be resurrected
and stop Feldway. Veldanava would never forgive Feldway for using Milim as well.
Even if the world were to be destroyed, Veldanava would be able to regenerate it from nothing.
So don't worry about anything, just start again from the beginning.

The issue is, no one could remake the Universe, since per Vol23, and even Vol21 with Rimuru's case, Void Collapse can only make planets, like the cardinal world.

Spoiler: Mtl Vol 23

- Mtl Vol 23 Chapter 4
そうなると、禁断の技しか残っていない。
（──コレは、新たな世界を創造する時しか使う気はなかったんだけどな）

それは、もしもの時の切り札だった。
──《天地崩滅覇界（イニシャライズ・ヘブン）》

世界を初期化して、再構築する技法だ。

ヴェルダナーヴァが基軸世界を誕生させた際に用いたのは、《始原楽園開闢（ビギニング・エデン）》という究極の“神業（かみわざ）”だった。

この奥義を使用した事でヴェルダナーヴァは『虚無崩壊』を喪失し、
その上で、創造した世界に降り立つ事に成功したのである。
In that case, only the forbidden technique remains.
(--I only intended to use this when creating a new world.)
It was a trump card in case of emergency.
──"[Heaven and Earth Destruction Ruin][Initialize Heaven]"──
It is a technique for initializing and reconstructing the world.
When Veldanava created the base world, he used the ultimate "[God], "[God's], "[Art],
"[Beginning Eden]"."
By using this secret technique, Veldanava lost his ``Void Collapse'' and was no longer
``Omniscient and Omnipotent.'' On top of that, he succeeded in descending into the world he
had created.

So it's clear that Feldway nor Ivarage actually caused the complete destruction of the Cardinal World Universe, so prior to Vol 23, no one/thing should be scaling to it especially not the planet's durability.

Is the Entire Universe More Durable?​

As I've already proven in the prior points, Other worlds are planets.

Spoiler: No Higher Durability

Now it should be known that each universe/dimension seemingly has different "laws" but not in the physical laws, or laws of nature, but by "strength" or density of magicules per universe.

This is implied because of Volume 17, when regarding these "laws" it only goes into details about the "levels of civilization", the amount of magic or lack thereof and the level of magical interference with the laws of the world.

- Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2
There were ‘otherworlders,’ so she was aware of that fact, but Velgrynd had never imagined that there were so many different worlds. They were governed by completely different laws, and there was no causality. It was a material world within a great spiritual world of many different civilizations. From the familiar world where swords and magic are the norm, to the world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used. There was also a rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized. There were weak worlds that could be blown away by a True Dragon if it unleashed all of its strength, and there were desolate worlds where angels and demons comparable to awakened Demon Lords were in constant conflict.
...
Magical interference is just not on this world’s level. In other words, it’s safe to assume that the demon has done something. But they’re still unlucky to have done it when I’m on to them. No. It’s different. Rudra’s luck must be working. That’s my Rudra!
She was responding with happy thoughts. Well, magic and witchcraft are the norm in this world, and it is difficult to use magic that can interfere with the laws of the world.
...
Angered, Delia was reminded of the truth. This is a lesser world in terms of strength alone, but that’s because the laws of the world are different. Delia cautioned her mind that she must not forget her position until the invasion was complete.

So when regarding these "laws" they only amount to surface level logic that differ from other worlds since the existence of magicules differ from each world.

- Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2
The concentration of magic is so low in this world that there is no such thing as a remarkably strong monster. It was as if they had arrived from the other world and were so fierce that they were known as gods.

Even such individuals were no match for the violence of numbers, and through the cooperation of swordsmen and sorcerers, the numbers were reduced to an almost unseen level now. That’s why there was no magic element pooling occurring. Therefore, it was difficult for powerful monsters to occur naturally. Unlike Veldora, the current Velgrynd completes her own mana circulation. It does not need to be replenished from the atmosphere and does not leave her body.

This is a skill I learned when I crossed various worlds, that’s why I was unaware the concentration of monsters and magic in this world.

In the first place, crossing over worlds would normally be impossible. Even through the ‘Underworld Gate,’ you are limited by the size of the gate. A person like Velgrynd, who can use ‘Spacetime Leap’ without any restrictions, is outside the laws of the world. Thus, compared to Velgrynd’s magic-filled homeland, the standard of strength in this world was far inferior. That would soon be revealed.
...
Most of the humans in the material world die from the dense concentrations of magical elements once they cross the world. But a few were reborn by remodeling, transforming their bodies into powerful beings. These were the otherworlders of Velgrynd’s homeland.

That’s right, I’ve forgotten. This world is very low in magic. That’s why it’s harder to cast a spell, and the level physical strengthening is low. Their physical strength is innate, so it’s rather amazing that they can even be this powerful.
...
In the material world, it could only be active for a short time without incarnation. Particularly in this world where magic is scarce, its energy efficiency would have been too low if it had not possessed a human. Therefore, if it uses its true strength, its human body would not be able to withstand it.

He’s getting weaker. Well, this world isn’t protected by magical elements, so if you use too much power, it might destroy it. If they’re destroying it, or even invading it, do they control its power? That’s probably why Kondou’s current strength was so important in a fight.
...
“You should be proud of yourself. In a world where there is little to no magic, few people can reach that level of strength. If you could have taken in some magic element and sublimated your body, you could have become not only an Immortal but a Saint. It’s too bad about that.”
...
If they could truly harness the power of the mythical-grade weapons, they would be able to awaken as a spirit life form and defeat most demons. But with their current strength, this awakening was impossible. Velgrynd only made the artifacts available to those of Shin’s blood when she created them. They could be used, but they were nowhere near as powerful as they should be. But there’s no need to be ashamed of that. This world is weak in magic and fragile in every way. If they could cross the realm and have their bodies reshaped, they would be able to rise above Sage. As for Xianhua, there is a strong possibility that she will awaken as Saint. So that’s why the warriors are now ready. And with this, the great counterattack has begun.

I think that gives enough context to what I'm saying.

The bottom line, is the "laws" that are discussed in Volume 17 that are different between magicules that would strengthen matter and the worlds/planets themselves.

Why is this necessary to know? Because Magicules are made of mass, therefore subjected to the laws of gravity.

- Otl Volume 1, Chapter 1
“Unique” meaning…?
A unique monster is an individual who has suddenly attained unusual abilities, akin to mutation. They are occasionally born in areas with high magical concentrations… Perhaps you were born from the mass of magicules that leaked out from me, then?

-Slime Reader Volume 11, Chapter 5
An ‘information particle’ was a substance smaller than even ‘spiritrons,’ and was close to having no mass at all. All matter in the world had to contain ‘information particles.’

So using that understanding, they should concentrate at places with high gravity, aka celestial bodies, which would exclude them being in outer space.

I would make sense for Spiritual realms which are comprised of such particles, but Semi-spiritual and obviously Material realms would have no reason to have magicules spread across their realms in equal manner. So the durability or "strength" of things would only relate to the actual material things depending on the concentration of magicules.

Which would therefore put a screw in the idea that the Solar system would also be stronger because of that very premise.

The only thing in the cardinal planet that is more durable than normal, would be the planet due to the Artifacts we know of, so trying to justify everything else, is seemingly large leaps in logic with no actual context to support it.

Conclusion​

• No one would scale to a universal level in order to upscale the durability for the planet.
• The concentration of Magicules wouldn't upscale the entire solar system to a degree that is quantifiable itself.
• Only the Planet is more durable than normal due to It's artifacts + concentration of magicules differing from other worlds.
• The Energy required to destroy the Cardinal world is still inconclusive.

Other Points​

So yeah, this is CLEARLY an AP feat more than anything, and its range is extremely limited (only solar system level) due to that pyramid (part of the attack itself) that prevents the energy from escaping.

Wouldn't it be an AP feat work against your premise? Since if it is based on AP, that means Velgrynd, someone you claim to be able to destroy "weak worlds", which I believe I've proven to be planets, couldn't even be as strong as a Solar system attack. Or are you trying to say such a solar system would scale to low multiversal?

So there you have it, Guy (and all the other Primordials in that sense) can DEFINITELY destroy the world, regardless of whether the sacred tree is there or not. However, why they don't do it is simply because it's boring and would ruin all the fun for them.

Via opening a "gate" to the abyss of hell which would let loose the "ever-expanding" void. So they aren't doing this out of their own ability but doing this via Environmental Destruction, and even then it doesn't fit the bill for it.

As you can see, it is clearly also talking about world destruction. Now, on the other hand, the other things that OP ignores is how Time travel and Dimensional Travel works.

Which in this post I have point out other worlds = planets. Which would mean that the threat is planetary at most.

Conclusion;​

• The destruction of the dimensions that Volume 16 refers to, is never clarified whether the dimensions exist still or not. And there's no evidence to suggest the "destruction" here means literally, especially since, like in vol21, destroying something doesn't mean it's gone.
• "Weak worlds" are just planets with less magicules, therefore a true dragon releasing it's aura, could destroy planets.
• Zalario has no context of destroying/annihilating dimensions, which also are differing sizes to begin with, in order to scale to them. And considering he is only on par with beings that are planetary to below solar system, it should be taken into consideration that the "destroying dimensions" is not what Op is claiming it is.
• The Solar system feat is Ap, and discredits Velgrynd and anyone who scales relative, to being above solar system level especially when said solar system has no quantification of being more durable that a regular solar system to changes it's tiering.
• Every other "world" destroying feat, is clearly talking about a planet, either the cardinal world or other worlds, meaning they can never enter tier 2.

Regarding the Raws​

EDIT: Still need raws double checked by translation team.

それでも、被害は甚大だ。
Even so, the damage was immense.

〝八門堅陣〟という隔離された限定空間の中で、星系を破壊する規模の超絶エネルギーが荒れ狂った。
Within the isolated, restricted space known as the “Eight-Gates Fortress Array,” an overwhelmingly vast energy—on the scale of destroying an entire star system—raged violently.

それは想像を絶する威力で、基軸世界という他の次元とは隔絶した強度を誇る舞台でなければ、〝八門堅陣〟どころか星そのものが跡形もなく消し飛んでいたはずだ。
Its power was beyond imagination; if not for the stage being the Prime(Cardinal) World—whose strength is completely separated from that of other dimensions—not only the Eight-Gates Fortress Array, but the entire planet itself would have been blown away without a trace.

オベーラやザラリオと違って、フェルドウェイと一番近い思想の持ち主だった訳だ。
Unlike Obera or Zararío, he was the one whose ideology was closest to Feldway’s.

全次元、全世界の完全支配は、まだまだ遠く道半ばだ。
ヴェルダナーヴァが創った基軸世界から、観測が追い付かないほどの派生世界が誕生しているからである。
Complete domination of all dimensions and all worlds was still a distant, halfway goal at best.
This is because from the Prime(Cardinal) World created by Veldanava, so many derivative worlds are being born that they cannot even be fully observed.

This ^ would also work against other worlds being universes since its deriving from the Cardinal world. This is also calls to question whether or not Veldanava even created other worlds to begin with, since the other worlds are being "born" as derivative worlds from Veldanava's creation.

知性を獲得した人間達は、互いに刺激し合い予想も出来ない行動を取る。
それを放置してしまえば、直ぐに相争い自滅への道を歩み始めてしまうのだ。
Humans, once they acquired intelligence, provoked one another and acted in ways no one could predict.
If left unattended, they would immediately begin walking the path of conflict and mutual self-destruction.

基軸世界から派生して幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てで似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。
Several worlds had branched off from the Prime World, yet in all of them the same tendency was confirmed.

それは、感情が原因である。
And the cause of it all was emotion.

それから何度も調整を繰り返し、人類が望むべき姿になるように発展させようと試みた。
He then repeated adjustments many times, attempting to develop humanity into the form it ought to aspire to.

[数多(あまた)の他次元並列世界にて条件を細かく変更して、異なる進化を遂げさせたのだ。]
Across countless parallel worlds in other dimensions, he finely altered the conditions, causing each to undergo different evolutions.

So essentially, it seems like these "worlds" derived from the Cardinal world, which is a planet, and if you need evidence, here and here. Which doesn't explain anything at all of how they came to be other than simply happening by chance.

So that's my refutation, let the chaos begin!

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@EldemadeDityjon

You can freely comment here if you wish.

Are there others on your side of the argument that you think would also be helpful here?

Ant thanks for the ping. I'll comment on this later. There are few things which goes against what OP is claiming. @TheHyperGuy covered most of the points. I'll try to tackle the remaining stuff.
Can you also please give @Dog3352 permission to comment here.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Other worlds/Weak worlds​

My next main contention, something I was not in these forums to argue at the time, are the sizes of these "weak worlds" or other worlds in general.

Spoiler: Other world sizes

Strictly speaking, these "weak worlds" are just planets that have little magicules within them. I agree with OP in that manner, HOWEVER, they are just planets.

Other worlds in specific are planets, the core of this logic is the fact that even if Velgrynd was traversing dimensions, she was NOT referring to the dimensions/universes themselves, but the planets she visited.

Her travel took place inside worlds/universes and those planets where just places she stopped. Which should be obvious since she was only stopping in order to look for rudra. In which he was mostly a normal human and obviously on a planet.

The space she was inside was part of a world. So unless you are trying to argue that there is a planet that would last for infinity,holds no atmosphere or land causing her to just drift around,and transcends time it very obviously isn’t a planet

This text above leads us to believe that other worlds are replacing the term "parallel worlds" as there are no parallel worlds, but other worlds. Keep this in mind.

There being no parallel worlds has been debunked multiple times as they are literally shown to exist by the literal creator which takes precedence over everything in verse

"..familiar world where swords and magic are the norm," -> "...small country in the world of swords and magic."
"...world where magic is non-existent and cannot be used." -> "...rare scammer in the world without magic."
"...rare world where scientific civilization had developed and humankind had become mechanized." -> "...poor scientist in the civilized world."

Now perhaps these are talking about completely different worlds, and that may be true. But considering the narrative is discussing things like "countries" or "civilization" it would at least pose a viewpoint of specifically talking about the planet and it's environment. Right?

Well have you ever heard of an "interstellar world" being something larger than a planet? or somethin akin to it? Considering Interstellar literally means, "occurring or situated between stars," It's clear that one "world" is not talking about a dimension/universe/world-line. It's clear it's talking about something much smaller.

To support this argument, let's look back on parallel world vs other worlds.



The focus here is that parallel worlds exist within Dimensions. Dimensions are universes, as the Op accepts via implication. If I need to prove why Dimensions = Universes, I can do so.

Dimensions are the container of worlds. In which case worlds are things vaster than universes. Idk why you are just blatantly ignoring that. When it is the currently accepted and currently argued thing.

But with that understanding going forward, all this would mean are parallel worlds/other worlds are within universes. This means, they can't possibly scale to universal size or the size of dimensions, which supports my claim they are planets, and not Universes or dimensions.

Worlds are directly stated to be universes

Other Dimensions Sizes​

Now when it comes to the sizes of dimensions, there are multiple dimensions that do not equal of the size of dimensions/universes. Such as;

Spoiler: Dimension Sizes

Walpurgis is the size of a meeting room;

Labyrinth top floor is the size of Tokyo Dome;


Tengu Tribe Village is "tiny";

And let's not forget the Heavenly Star palace, if it can be considered a dimension;


We could also talk about Isolated dimensions. They can exist inside the labyrinth, which I already proven was minor in size, and just be big enough to encompass a flagship;



So it's clear Dimensions can come in vastly different sizes, so what would "destroying" dimensions even mean in Zalarios, one off statement, that is never elaborated on again?

All of those you mentioned were either pocket dimensions or a single floor of which ramiris can make as big as she wants Including being big enough to contain stars (that one floor just happened to be small in the beginning because she wanted it to be small). . None of them are cosmological structures races live in. So really just a false equivalence

Regarding the Raws​

This ^ would also work against other worlds being universes since its deriving from the Cardinal world. This is also calls to question whether or not Veldanava even created other worlds to begin with, since the other worlds are being "born" as derivative worlds from Veldanava's creation.

Even if you argue he didn’t (which is stated he did) he can still destroy them as stated

So essentially, it seems like these "worlds" derived from the Cardinal world, which is a planet, and if you need evidence, here and here. Which doesn't explain anything at all of how they came to be other than simply happening by chance.

So that's my refutation, let the chaos begin!

Worlds are directly called universes. With one of the universes that yukki saw being a Derived world.by your logic the axis/base/prime/cardinal world which is a “planet” gave birth to universes.which is….something . Even though it is also shown that the base world is one of those universes they are looking for.


I also don’t know why you are trying to argue the stuff about feldway when world>universe.

It just means that feldway destroyed the universe. (Outside that universe there is still the world. Which would still mean things like stars would still exist) as a world is a multiverse and said world was never destroyed by feldway nor ivarage. It naturally ended. And reached the end of the world according to the law.so everything died out naturally . This was already also accepted on the cosmology page

 

[TheHyperGuy]

The space she was inside was part of a world. So unless you are trying to argue that there is a planet that would last for infinity,holds no atmosphere or land causing her to just drift around,and transcends time it very obviously isn’t a planet

The world she went into prior to traveling across dimensions =/= other worlds.

There being no parallel worlds has been debunked multiple times as they are literally shown to exist by the literal creator which takes precedence over everything in verse

Why are you bringing this point back up? Velgrynd confirms it twice in the next volume.

He created many worlds. There was one world, and there were no parallel worlds. But there were other worlds.

Since there are clear differences in the origins and laws of the world, it is concluded that it is not a parallel world, but for some reason the names are similar.

You brought vol 16 information which is retconned in the next volume.

Dimensions are the container of worlds. In which case worlds are things vaster than universes. Idk why you are just blatantly ignoring that. When it is the currently accepted and currently argued thing.

You are referring to Otherworld, not worlds in general. Otherworld was then reconfirmed in vol 23 to be bigger than all universes.

TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)

Sorry, mixed verses up. 2B should still be there And where did this even come from? How is it related? It is related since parallel worlds don’t exist. And if they don’t exist, 2-B can’t even be possible...

vsbattles.com

Spoiler: Vol 23 + Raw

スイームは本来、数多の宇宙を含めたよりも広大な異界の星間を泳ぐ。
Suīm originally swims through the interstellar space of the Otherworld, which is far vaster than the countless universes.

So trying to say that is equal to other worlds is ignoring what we already have confirmed.

Worlds are directly called universes. With one of the universes that yukki saw being a Derived world.by your logic the axis/base/prime/cardinal world which is a “planet” gave birth to universes.which is….something . Even though it is also shown that the base world is one of those universes they are looking for.

Define Derivative for me please. And does it have anything to do with birthing other things from it?

It just means that feldway destroyed the universe. (Outside that universe there is still the world. Which would still mean things like stars would still exist) as a world is a multiverse and said world was never destroyed by feldway nor ivarage. It naturally ended. And reached the end of the world according to the law.so everything died out naturally . This was already also accepted on the cosmology page

This is just not true. Rimuru and Ciel was still there in a Universe. You didn't refute my reasoning for that being the case, So I wont bother replying to this fully.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

The world she went into prior to traveling across dimensions =/= other worlds.

This is literally during her travel

Why are you bringing this point back up? Velgrynd confirms it twice in the next volume.

One is from vol 16 and the other is from vol 23. Why would you take velgrynds word instead of the literal creator of said things.

You brought vol 16 information which is retconned in the next volume.

It obviously wasn’t retconned since it is stated yet again in the last volume.not to mention it was already argued that velgrynd was referring to other things which this just proves.

Veldanava>velgrynd so it’s either she was wrong or she was talking about other things. Or can even say it was retconned for all I care. There is just no way you are trying to argue there is someone more knowledgeable than the literal person who created them.

You are referring to Otherworld, not worlds in general. Otherworld was then reconfirmed in vol 23 to be bigger than all universes.

TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)

Sorry, mixed verses up. 2B should still be there And where did this even come from? How is it related? It is related since parallel worlds don’t exist. And if they don’t exist, 2-B can’t even be possible...

vsbattles.com

Spoiler: Vol 23 + Raw

スイームは本来、数多の宇宙を含めたよりも広大な異界の星間を泳ぐ。
Suīm originally swims through the interstellar space of the Otherworld, which is far vaster than the countless universes.

So trying to say that is equal to other worlds is ignoring what we already have confirmed.

I wasn’t even using the scan. I was referring to the fact that they literally have to be vaster cause they contain them.
And if you look at the context of the scan from volume 23. Literally right under that passage is referring to many different worlds swim has went to . So i don’t see why you would assume it is talking about the other world instead of otherworlds.

(Would likely get a different translation if used the full context instead of that clipped raw)

Define Derivative for me please. And does it have anything to do with birthing other things from it?

Branched/sourced worlds.and yes this is obviously the case with the context shown

This is just not true. Rimuru and Ciel was still there in a Universe. You didn't refute my reasoning for that being the case, So I wont bother replying to this fully.

Yes they were in a “universe” in name. Said “universe” was not cardinal worlds universe as that was destroyed. As stated by ceil that everything ended.not to mention everything has infinite lifespan so no one would die if everything “naturally ended”

Feldway sent rimuru to beyond time->Feldway destroyed the universe->rimuru arrived beyond time (basically imagine the same place Mai was. She was outside the universe and saw other universes) rimuru was sleeping. And all those things naturally ended over time. The stars,universes etc all reached the end.-> ciel watched everything end->rimuru woke up after the world finally ended fully. There was nothing left.

Simply there is stuff beyond the universe because that is just a SINGLE world inside cardinal world

 

[TheHyperGuy]

This is literally during her travel

Before* She went into the space between worlds Prior to her actually going to other worlds.

- Slime Reader Volume 17, Chapter 2
Velgrynd took her first leap into the strange space between unknown worlds. There, she found herself unbounded by time and confronted her inner self. By doing so, she made the Ultimate Skill ‘Divine Flame King Cthugha’ completely her own. The Ultimate Skill ‘Divine Flame King Cthugha’ had the power to track Rudra’s soul. Strictly speaking, the effect was to discover an entity once specified. Velgrynd can now find pieces of her beloved Rudra’s soul, no matter how remote or far away they are, even beyond time and space.

All she has to do now is ‘jump’ for it. It is a perfect combination of Spacetime Manipulation and Dimension Leap, a technique that is only possible with the Ultimate Skill’s ever-growing power. However, it was impossible to jump to a specific time and place because the target coordinates could not be determined. In other words, the ‘Spacetime Leap’ is only possible when there is a destination.

However, this does not apply if the time and space are the same. Even ‘Instantaneous Movement’ was possible because it could travel over any distance without regard to time. That is why Velgrynd relied on her own authority to pursue Rudra.

First, she found herself on a starry continent where civilization was still in its infancy. A barbarian chief with bronze skin. The young, blond-haired youth was the one who had a fragment of Rudra’s soul in him. The young men were hunters and had eventually settled in the Great River Valley. Velgrynd helped them without her own weight. She brought rain and conquered the great rivers and made the land fertile. It was around this time that she began to move away from hunting and pursued agriculture. Their food situation improved greatly and the number of mouths they could feed increased. Soon the village became one that was feared by the surrounding villages. It makes sense for the rich to be targeted.

One is from vol 16 and the other is from vol 23. Why would you take velgrynds word instead of the literal creator of said things.

You didnt bring a single scan from 23. And you didn't argue against the reasoning behind parallel worlds = other worlds.

Veldanava>velgrynd so it’s either she was wrong or she was talking about other things. Or can even say it was retconned for all I care. There is just no way you are trying to argue there is someone more knowledgeable than the literal person who created them.

Veldanava didn't say anything, It was the narrative with no POV, so why are you blatantly lying in this thread now?

I wasn’t even using the scan. I was referring to the fact that they literally have to be vaster cause they contain them.

You aren't giving any scans or quote to imply worlds contain dimensions, so I wont even humor this till you do.

Branched/sourced worlds.and yes this is obviously the case with the context shown

That's not what derivative means.

As an Adj.
(typically of an artist or work of art) imitative of the work of another person, and usually disapproved of for that reason.

As a Noun
something that is based on another source.

So in which way do any of these definitions fit branching? And not just imitations? You need a great deal of evidence to prove it's branching.

Yes they were in a “universe” in name. Said “universe” was not cardinal worlds universe as that was destroyed. As stated by ceil that everything ended.not to mention everything has infinite lifespan so no one would die if everything “naturally ended”

Ciel stated the world was not destroyed. Answer this, if the universe was destroyed, then why did stars exist long enough to go through it's entire lifespan? Why did Ciel say the world was not destroyed? Contrary to what she "presumed" earlier, she seems to say nothing is destroyed fully.

- Otl Volume 21, Epilogue
I assumed Ivalage went on a rampage while I was gone, destroying the world the way Feldway wanted. But even if Ciel was telling me that didn’t destroy the world, I couldn’t really call this much better.

Ciel is saying it didn't destroy the world.

Feldway sent rimuru to beyond time->Feldway destroyed the universe->rimuru arrived beyond time (basically imagine the same place Mai was. She was outside the universe and saw other universes) rimuru was sleeping. And all those things naturally ended over time. The stars,universes etc all reached the end.-> ciel watched everything end->rimuru woke up after the world finally ended fully. There was nothing left.

Nothing you said here is supported. They literally stated it was the "distant future", so it wasn't beyond time.

- Otl Volume 21, Epilogue
Thanks to that, I was now at the End of Space and Time—apparently, a place where withering time and space intersected, in the distant future.

So that's wrong too. And you aren't even addressing the biggest issue, if Feldway didn't destroy the stars directly, then why are we saying he destroyed the universe that HOLDS THOSE STARS?

 

[PrimeHydra64]

As established many times before in downgrades and upgrades alike, world can mean many things. In Volume 23, they are consistently used as synonymous with Universe especially when Veldanava (God Creator of the many worlds and even the Otherworld which is an universe that is larger than many other universes) talks about them as well as Ivarage (who is the world destroying dragon that wants to consume all worlds created by Veldanava and filled the Otherworld with magicules).

Spoiler: Initialize Heaven

そうなると、禁断の技しか残っていない。

（──コレは、新たな世界を創造する時しか使う気はなかったんだけどな）

　それは、もしもの時の切り札だった。



　──〝天地崩滅覇界(イニシャライズ・ヘブン)〟──



　世界を初期化して、再構築する技法だ。

　ヴェルダナーヴァが基軸世界を誕生させた際に用いたのは、〝楽園開闢(ビギニング・エデン)〟という究極の〝神かみ業わざ〟だった。

　この奥義を使用した事でヴェルダナーヴァは『虚無崩壊』を喪失し、『全知全能』ではなくなった。その上で、創造した世界に降り立つ事に成功したのである。

　今となっては〝神かみ業わざ〟など扱えないので、次点となる〝天地崩滅覇界(イニシャライズ・ヘブン)〟こそが、ヴェルダナーヴァが扱える最強神技という事になる。

　これならば、リムルを含めた遍く世界を滅ぼしてしまえるはずだった。

　もっとも、今使うのは想定外ではある。

　何故ならば、〝天地崩滅覇界(イニシャライズ・ヘブン)〟では選別が出来ないからだ。再構築される次代の世界へと、友人達を連れて行けなくなるのである。

　それにまだ、愛するルシアの〝因子〟を集め終えていなかった。

　イヴァラージェはヴェルダナーヴァの半身であり、〝天地崩滅覇界(イニシャライズ・ヘブン)〟を経ても生き残るだろうが、完全なルシアには程遠いだろう。

　失われた『虚無崩壊』があれば、全ての世界を取り込んで情報の洗い出しも可能だっただろうが、今のヴェルダナーヴァには不可能な技術だ。世界が消滅してしまえば、ルシアの〝情報子〟も失われてしまうのだった。

　そういう訳で〝天地崩滅覇界(イニシャライズ・ヘブン)〟を用いるかどうかは、ヴェルダナーヴァとしても苦渋の決断となる。

　ただし、難しく考える必要はない。

　不完全であろうが、ルシアはルシアだ。

　ヴェルダナーヴァが勝利すれば、それは正しい選択だったという事になるのだ。

　新たな世界は、今の世界よりもマシであろう。

　約束の場所に辿り着いた者達と一緒に、より完全な世界を創るつもりだった。

　弟妹であるヴェルザード達も〝竜種〟なので、新世界で再び誕生するだろう。記憶が引き継がれないように処理しておけば、以前のようにヴェルダナーヴァを慕ってくれるはずだ。

　娘のミリムだって、再び生まれ変わるはずである。

　今度は、一人じゃないから寂しくない。

　世界の構築だって二度目になるので、もっと上手くやれるはずだった。

　リムルを倒せば、そうした未来が訪れるのだ。

（理想を追い求めて失敗するよりも、最善を選択すべきだ）

　こうして、天秤は傾いた。

『どうやら、君を認めるしかなさそうだ。リムルだったね、神の御業でこの世界ごと消滅させて──』

　ヴェルダナーヴァは、世界を初期化しようと決断して──

*Context: Veldanava wants to collect Lucia's information and would need to destroy the "World" but only to the information level so he can sort through it. But he can only use Initialize Heaven which just erases everything (except the promised land) to nothing without discrimination since he wasn't Omnipotent or Omniscient nor did he have Nihility Collapse in which he could absorb all worlds.



In Volume 22, Worlds are explicitly tied to Universes especially to "branched" ones which in volume 23 all other worlds branched off of the cardinal world.
(the kanji for derived is "派生" it can also mean offshoot, spinoff or branched.)

https://context.reverso.net/translation/japanese-english/%E6%B4%BE%E7%94%9F

Tanoshii Japanese

Listen to the pronunciation, view english meanings, stroke order diagrams and conjugations for 派生 (hasei).

www.tanoshiijapanese.com

JapanDict: Japanese Dictionary - Definition of 派生

Definition of 派生. Click for more info and examples: はせい - hasei - derivation

www.japandict.com

Spoiler: Volume 22 Yuuki Universe Translation

"Hmm, even though I've been watching that rainbow sphere, didn't it just swell up and disappear? If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably one world - a universe."

"A universe?"
Source

So we have Worlds=Universe statement, and they are rainbow spheres that expand then burst. Now, in volume 23 Veldanava's Sword "Memory" is almost exactly like that as bubbles adorning the blade that continuously rising, expanding then bursting with Rimuru saying it looks like Ramune Soda (ラムネ) and this blade has every event in "3000 worlds" (*edit it means All Of Creation/Whole World/Universe *in Buddhist sense. 1, 2, 3 and 4). And Rimuru refers to it as Akashic Records.

Here is Ramune Soda as an example.

Spoiler: "Memory"

ヴェルダナーヴァが囁くように告げると、その声に応じるように一振りの剣が出現した。

　キラキラとした泡のような輝きが、刀身を彩っている。

　イメージするのは、ラムネだ。刀身に水泡が浮き上がり、弾けて消えるような、そんな不思議な剣だった。

「待たせたね。この剣の名は〝記憶(メモリー)〟というんだ。ボクが生き返ってから創った八本目の創世級(ジェネシスなんだけど)、この基軸世界を含めた遍あまねく三千世界での出来事全てが、この剣に鮮明な記録として刻まれているのさ」

　それを聞いた俺は、『アカシックレコードかよ!?』と突っ込みそうになった。

In Volume 21, Rimuru has enough Nihility Collapse energy to recreate the "World" tens of thousands of times over. This doesn't mean planet but the actual universe since he is at the end of time and space. For it to be a single planet, he would need to restart space-time or recreate the space-time. And from the "Initialize Heaven" quote, we see that it was established to be a multiversal ability in both range and potency (which even if Worlds=Planets would still make it multiversal since universes exist and if these "Worlds" were in universes then they would also be absorbed so it would still be universes or it would contradict the next volume.

Spoiler: Volume 21 OTL

A great deal of time has passed, so the energy derived from the Void Collapse has accumulated to a massive extent. Veldanava lost Void Collapse when he created the world, but since you have Complex Space, that was not a problem.

Not a problem how exactly? That sounded like a lot of problems to me.

I guess my Complex Space was infinitely vast. It was filled to the point where I could rebuild the world thousands of times if I wanted to—but it still wasn’t full. I was wondering what that had to do with any of this, but then Ciel shocked me again.

…It is possible to recreate the memories of everyone involved with you, as well as the world’s environment, and willfully create a world that is as close to our original time frame as is feasibly implementable. What will you do?

「この星どころか、世界そのものさえも――ヤツには不要なのじゃろうな……」

This quote is in relation to Ivarage from Luminous. making a clear separation between "Planet" and "World".

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Nothing you said here is supported. They literally stated it was the "distant future", so it wasn't beyond time.

Spoiler

あの恐るべきスライムは、時空の終局点の向こう側からも帰還してのけたのである。

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Spoiler

あの恐るべきスライムは、時空の終局点の向こう側からも帰還してのけたのである。

あの恐るべきスライムは、時空の終局点の向こう側からも帰還してのけたのである。
“That fearsome slime even managed to return from beyond the terminal point of space-time.”

Again, this would then be contradicting Vol 21 epilogue where it states to be AT the end of space and time, and the distant future. So I see no reason to Take feldway's statements, I'm pretty sure that was his quote, over what Ciel explained in the Epilogue of Vol 21.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Again, this would then be contradicting Vol 21 epilogue where it states to be AT the end of space and time, and the distant future. So I see no reason to Take feldway's statements, I'm pretty sure that was his quote, over what Ciel explained in the Epilogue of Vol 21.

But Feldway put him there. He was also Veldanava's favourite subordinate who helped manage the world. And it is from the latest volume so there wouldn't be that Fuse "forgot".

 

[TheHyperGuy]

But Feldway put him there. He was also Veldanava's favourite subordinate who helped manage the world. And it is from the latest volume so there wouldn't be that Fuse "forgot".

I think Ciel, who actually has been Bfr'd using Chrono-saltation, would know more than someone who simply uses the ability.

He thought Rimuru would perish there, but he found that not to be true later on. He overestimated the ability, and what Rimuru was capable of. So I would take Ciel's word on this far more than someone who was already wrong about a few things regarding the ability.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Before* She went into the space between worlds Prior to her actually going to other worlds.

Vol 17 is a continuation of vol 15 when she first went

You didnt bring a single scan from 23. And you didn't argue against the reasoning behind parallel worlds = other worlds.

The mention of parallel worlds is from vol 23. The other is from vol 16

Veldanava didn't say anything, It was the narrative with no POV, so why are you blatantly lying in this thread now?

It was literally backstory on veldanava creation. Every primordial is more knowledgeable than velgrynd seeing as they literally witnessed the birth of them.

You aren't giving any scans or quote to imply worlds contain dimensions, so I wont even humor this till you do.

Worlds don’t contain dimensions. Dimensions are the ones that contain worlds.

That's not what derivative means.

🫩 literally means something which is based on another source.. In this case is something that branches

基軸世界から派生して幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てで似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。

Ciel stated the world was not destroyed. Answer this, if the universe was destroyed, then why did stars exist long enough to go through it's entire lifespan? Why did Ciel say the world was not destroyed? Contrary to what she "presumed" earlier, she seems to say nothing is destroyed fully.

Ciel is saying it didn't destroy the world.

Cause the world wasn’t destroyed…. The universe was.

World=a collection of universes.

Universe= singular space time

Nothing you said here is supported. They literally stated it was the "distant future", so it wasn't beyond time.

It is a distant future that is beyond time.and yes there is time before time in tensura

So that's wrong too. And you aren't even addressing the biggest issue, if Feldway didn't destroy the stars directly, then why are we saying he destroyed the universe that HOLDS THOSE STARS?

The universe doesn’t hold those stars. The world does. The only way i can describe it is that those stars are in a different universe. So they are unaffected by him destroying the universe of cardinal world

 

[TheHyperGuy]

But Feldway put him there. He was also Veldanava's favourite subordinate who helped manage the world. And it is from the latest volume so there wouldn't be that Fuse "forgot".

Also found something trying to find the quote I saw last time for Feldway;

- Mtl Volume 22, Page 287
As a leader, he always uses only sure-win methods. Even when facing an unknown enemy, he doesn't take risks and uses reliable tactics. That was Feldway's way of fighting, and it was the secret to his continued victories.
However, that means he lacks versatility. Feldway doesn't research techniques himself. That's the role of his subordinates, and no matter how useful a skill may be, he doesn't incorporate it into battle unless an established application is discovered.

This would confirm Feldway's lack of knowledge over Ciel which would've been able to analyze and also figure out their situation more.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

Also found something trying to find the quote I saw last time for Feldway;

This would confirm Feldway's lack of knowledge over Ciel which would've been able to analyze and also figure out their situation more.

I mean the fact he used it means that he was confident in it, i mean he did use it before on Velgrynd.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Also found something trying to find the quote I saw last time for Feldway;

This would confirm Feldway's lack of knowledge over Ciel which would've been able to analyze and also figure out their situation more.

Rimuru and Ciel get transferred to "Beyond Space and Time" --> It is "Empty Space"[not Void], outside the Timeline they were in previously, BUT the Cardinal World has still not been destroyed" --> Ciel and Rimuru[sleeping] drift in this Empty space outside the Timelines and Ciel waits for what felt like an eternity for Rimuru to wake up --> The eternity passes when they reach the "End of Space and Time" --> Rimuru wakes up --> Ciel mentions they have reached the point of Emptiness[Void].
The "時空の果て" is used, which means the "End of Space and Time" rather then "Beyond Space and Time" [時空の彼方].

This was the explanation that was accepted awhile ago

 

[TheHyperGuy]

Rimuru and Ciel get transferred to "Beyond Space and Time" --> It is "Empty Space"[not Void], outside the Timeline they were in previously, BUT the Cardinal World has still not been destroyed" --> Ciel and Rimuru[sleeping] drift in this Empty space outside the Timelines and Ciel waits for what felt like an eternity for Rimuru to wake up --> The eternity passes when they reach the "End of Space and Time" --> Rimuru wakes up --> Ciel mentions they have reached the point of Emptiness[Void].
The "時空の果て" is used, which means the "End of Space and Time" rather then "Beyond Space and Time" [時空の彼方].

This was the explanation that was accepted awhile ago

Cool, I'm disputing that now, since I wasn't here awhile ago. So what do you have to refute what I've brought to the table?

EDIT: Last post here till new voices come along and new information. Don't want to spam the thread.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Cool, I'm disputing that now, since I wasn't here awhile ago. So what do you have to refute what I've brought to the table?

EDIT: Last post here till new voices come along and new information. Don't want to spam the thread.

Just that nothing you said was really relevant.ciel and feldway don’t contradict each other at all.

Chrono saltation pushes a target deeper into time. And he used All of time. Which made rimuru reach beyond time. From there Time Passed. Everything’s natural life ended and he reached the END of time and space. This is what ciel said

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

Also found something trying to find the quote I saw last time for Feldway;

This would confirm Feldway's lack of knowledge over Ciel which would've been able to analyze and also figure out their situation more.

Also just need to clarify. It quite literally tells you he doesn’t use something no matter how useful it is unless he knows exactly what it is. And seeing as how he used chrono saltation….

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So how come in the next claim, you try to use context from Vol 16 Prologue that would have nothing to do with Zalario? Or maybe it does, but it also deals with the Mystics, Insectars and the Cryptids. Any one of those forces could've been responsible as a whole, yet you are trying to say Zalario himself did so one time or more? This had nothing to do with him individually and you even admit that his task was to keep cryptids at bay, so why would he himself go to dimensions that do not pertain to his mission, and destroy them?

First off, you absolutely do not get what an example is. The point is that even one of the three forces (which were fighting each other) had enough power to destroy Dimensions. This is used to explain what "destroying" here means.

Second off, anyone from one of the sides can just go and destroys dimension. The fact that Zalario destroyed many proves that by necessity.

The only thing you're doing here is trying to ask questions while limiting the scope to a single scan or two. Try reading the whole argument at once before coming uo with counters.

You try to say this can be translated to "erase" however 滅ぼす never can mean erase literally, least I have never seen anyone translate it this way nor is there reason to believe it could be. only to destroy; to overthrow; to wreck; to ruin.

Try reading the translation thread then.

I, for note, did not translate any of these scans myself. They were translated by vsbw translators (staff or approved). So yeah, that's not a question you should be asking me lmao

Plus, both translations we have, Otl and Slime Reader, say the same thing pretty much.

The OTL says destroy, synonym with destroy. Only Slimereader misses the line for dimensions too being destroyed. And I already proved the later is wrong by getting it translated by vsbw translators. So your point has zero value here.
Also, judging by how your argument is worded, did you genuinely read the OP?

All translations used here are either from Slimereader, OTL, or from our wiki translators (either staff or approved members) such as @SeijiSetto, @Dattebayo and @MrTayman616. Huge thanks to all of them, really! This thread wouldn't have been possible without them.

---

Strictly speaking, these "weak worlds" are just planets that have little magicules within them. I agree with OP in that manner, HOWEVER, they are just planets.

Other worlds in specific are planets, the core of this logic is the fact that even if Velgrynd was traversing dimensions, she was NOT referring to the dimensions/universes themselves, but the planets she visited.

A claim without evidence, simply say. Planets don't have different laws of physics.

As for the later, again proves you're trying to only arguing for the sake of arguing. I've already established in my blog that Universes =/= Dimensions.

Now perhaps these are talking about completely different worlds, and that may be true. But considering the narrative is discussing things like "countries" or "civilization" it would at least pose a viewpoint of specifically talking about the planet and it's environment. Right?

Well have you ever heard of an "interstellar world" being something larger than a planet? or somethin akin to it? Considering Interstellar literally means, "occurring or situated between stars," It's clear that one "world" is not talking about a dimension/universe/world-line. It's clear it's talking about something much smaller.

To support this argument, let's look back on parallel world vs other worlds.

An absolutely irrelevant argument that ignores a thing called Plot.

The first is an argument from false equivalence. Just because the narrator is talking about countries on a planet doesn't auto turn the "world" into a planet. Obviously the character is going to focus on going to lifeless planets inside a Universe. There's no point in adding that kind of wording to the narrative. So your argument requires one to take something from a completely powerscaling perspective while ignoring a thing called Plot convenience.

As for the second argument, an argument from tradition. Just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it in other fictional worlds does not at all mean it can't exist at all. No, it's never implied (outside your imaginary perspective that ignores plot) that worlds are planets. Worlds are in fact = World-Line since that's the default assumption of what a world is unless context suggests that in that specific case it refers to a planet or something else.

The focus here is that parallel worlds exist within Dimensions.

Even if X is contained within Y and Y within Z, one can still say that X is contained within Z as that's also ultimately true from a broader perspective. Always, next:

Dimensions are universes, as the Op accepts via implication.

Uh, no, read the whole OP for once lmao.

If I need to prove why Dimensions = Universes, I can do so.

Go ahead

But with that understanding going forward, all this would mean are parallel worlds/other worlds are within universes. This means, they can't possibly scale to universal size or the size of dimensions, which supports my claim they are planets, and not Universes or dimensions.

Your argument is that Dimensions = Universes so stuff contained within them can't be universal in size.

That's a false equivalence since Dimensions aren't just universes. The only way one can even get near the claim that Universes = Dimensions is IF they take every mention of a single word as literal and constant (aka, that Dimensions can never refer to anything other than X), which again ignores narrative convenience and novel-writting.

This would all mean that "weak worlds" are just planets, since they fall under the "other worlds" category, which as I've proven, are all planets.

By the way, even IF you managed to prove all the above (which you can't since it doesnt exist), weak worlds here is specifically a Universe and a Space-Time Continuum.

Walpurgis is the size of a meeting room;
Labyrinth top floor is the size of Tokyo Dome;
Tengu Tribe Village is "tiny";
And let's not forget the Heavenly Star palace, if it can be considered a dimension;

We could also talk about Isolated dimensions. They can exist inside the labyrinth, which I already proven was minor in size, and just be big enough to encompass a flagship;

So it's clear Dimensions can come in vastly different sizes, so what would "destroying" dimensions even mean in Zalarios, one off statement, that is never elaborated on again?

This is, once again, specifically using the assumption that the word Dimensions must always mean the same thing. Which is absolutely not true.

Also, all of the examples you said are of Dimensions made via Space-Time manipulation by other characters and not Veldanava using raw power or something else. And absolutely nothing proves that the dimensions Zalario destroyed are also like those smaller dimensions. The burden of proving otherwise falls entirely on you, not me, since you made the claim.

---

Firstly, we must understand that Zalario's first mention, is Volume 16 where this "destroying" statement comes from, meaning we have no prior information on Zalario except for his mission prior to entering the Labyrinth.

Except, we're already told his job is to destroy Insectars in the Otherworld (though that doesn't mean he can't go out and not destroy other dimensions).

Op brought it up, but Zalario's main mission prior to what we know, was to deal with fighting the Insectars, not the cryptids. And he has been doing so for tens of billions of years, so unless Zalario somehow had the ability to time warp, when no one in the verse could, I fail to see how he could've been apart of the dimension conquering plans

This much is true.

or destroying the universe/dimensions, which still is contentious whether that means being erased or just fall to ruin.

This one is false equivalence since the Underworld Gate exists. Also, he can just be the one from one of the three forces that destroyed the other forces that invaded along with their entire dimensions. Since in the same volume it also says Zalario has destroyed many dimensions. As simple as that.

Now this could've happened prior to Zalario being ordered to stand against the Insectars, but we still don't know who did what and which faction destroyed what dimension and how they did so.

All of which are useless assumptions by the way.

Since there's no context to elaborate on the one off statement, we shouldn't use that as a core foundation for saying that Zalario can destroy entire universes in the literal sense. That is just a correlation equals causation, and there's no line of logic that would lead us to believe that to be the case,

That could have been plausible IF it was question worthy if Zalario even had anything to do with dimensions or not, but that's not the case here.

especially since he is comparable to beings weaker than Solar system attacks.

Ah yes, the same solar argument that ignores the existence of context.

---

This is completely misleading. Feldway DIDN'T destroy the Universe in the literal sense. Why? Well it implies such in the very chapter you are on.

It's clearly implied the Universe is still there and existing. So the "destruction", isn't in the literal sense of just gone, but ruined. The natural lifespan of the stars were "exhausted" meaning the the stars weren't destroyed by anyone, they simply lived their full lifespan, this has been implied to be following the Heat Death theory, which would showcase the fact, the universe is still there.

And even if that was the case, it was Ivarage who was the main force of destruction, not Feldway. If he was able to destroy the Universe but not the Planet, then why not just destroy the universe since it would result in the same goal of destroying the very thing you want destroyed so that Veldanava can remake it.

Spoiler: Mtl Vol 23

- Mtl Vol 23 Prologue
If there was even a possibility that he had gained the power of the Creator, there was a risk that
he would have become an entity that could not be controlled.
If that were to happen, there would be no time to reconstruct the world - but Feldway laughed
and said, "Who cares?"
If Veldanava does not revive, then everything will be meaningless.
He was trying to destroy the world because he thought that Veldanava would be resurrected
and stop Feldway. Veldanava would never forgive Feldway for using Milim as well.
Even if the world were to be destroyed, Veldanava would be able to regenerate it from nothing.
So don't worry about anything, just start again from the beginning.

The issue is, no one could remake the Universe, since per Vol23, and even Vol21 with Rimuru's case, Void Collapse can only make planets, like the cardinal world.

Spoiler: Mtl Vol 23

- Mtl Vol 23 Chapter 4
In that case, only the forbidden technique remains.
(--I only intended to use this when creating a new world.)
It was a trump card in case of emergency.
──"[Heaven and Earth Destruction Ruin][Initialize Heaven]"──
It is a technique for initializing and reconstructing the world.
When Veldanava created the base world, he used the ultimate "[God], "[God's], "[Art],
"[Beginning Eden]"."
By using this secret technique, Veldanava lost his ``Void Collapse'' and was no longer
``Omniscient and Omnipotent.'' On top of that, he succeeded in descending into the world he
had created.

So it's clear that Feldway nor Ivarage actually caused the complete destruction of the Cardinal World Universe, so prior to Vol 23, no one/thing should be scaling to it especially not the planet's durability.

I guess congratulations? Cuz this genuinely gave me a headache due to how of context and Fallacious this argument is.

First off, the kanji can mean both stars and planets. And I don't remember the novel ever focusing on "the cardinal world's star", but planet there perfectly goes along with other mentions in the novel (those mentions are already in the OP btw).

Second off, Ciel was observing this from Beyond Time where "she doesn't know what happened to the timeline, but everything (timeline) was already over", so yeah, there is no chance of the PHYSICAL UNIVERSE actually existing here.

Third off, Heat Death suggests a state of max entropy, not reaching emptiness. We already know what end of a Universe means from V22:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

It's not heat death where the Universe freezes due to maximum entropy, it's where Space and time (as a whole ball of light) cease to exist
It's already confirmed that Feldway initially needed Milim cuz he couldn't destroy the divine tree himself, but that wouldn't be a problem if the Divine tree didn't exist.

And Feldway was confident in reconstructing the Cardinal World even after Ivarage (who can destroy all worlds and dimensions) herself destroyed it.

Lastly, the latter most part of argument is based on the notion that words = planets, which is just untrue.

「この星どころか、世界そのものさえも──ヤツには不要なのじゃろうな……」

Again, this would then be contradicting Vol 21 epilogue where it states to be AT the end of space and time, and the distant future. So I see no reason to Take feldway's statements, I'm pretty sure that was his quote, over what Ciel explained in the Epilogue of Vol 21.

Hypertime are a thing btw. Especially when we have a Hyper Space-Time:

ダグリュールを起点として、目視不可能の超時空振動波が発生していた。それが空間内部を満たした事で、不可逆的破壊干渉波が生じたのである。

The only reason it isn't brought up in this thread is because the goal is tier 2, not tier 1.
Btw
MTL ISN'T ALLOWED UNLESS IT'S APPROVED BY WIKI TRANSLATORS.

As I've already proven in the prior points, Other worlds are planets

No you didn't, other than via false equivalence and unnecessary assumptions.

Now it should be known that each universe/dimension seemingly has different "laws" but not in the physical laws, or laws of nature, but by "strength" or density of magicules per universe.

This is implied because of Volume 17, when regarding these "laws" it only goes into details about the "levels of civilization", the amount of magic or lack thereof and the level of magical interference with the laws of the world

Uh, no?? It's directly called the Laws of physics lmao

Her mind was bursting with optimism. And she was right—magic in this world was more the realm of offensive sorcery and energy-sapping curses, and it was hard to cast spells that could directly rejigger the physical laws of the world. But praising Ludora for this was going overboard. The Oharu of this realm had no such powers; all of this was better chalked up to mere coincidence. To put it bluntly, the mystics had luck going against them. The moment Velgrynd had begun to play an active role, their invasion was all but doomed. V17C2 OTL

Delia, after that tirade, realized he was right. This world was inferior in terms of pure strength, but that was only because its physical laws differed from the ones they were familiar with. She admonished herself not to forget where she stood until this invasion was over.
OTL V17C2

So yeah, based on this this entire section falls apart. By the way, planets don't have different laws of physics.
Also, we have this statement that the entire cardinal world is "sturdier" than other dimensions:

それでも、被害は甚大だ。

〝八門堅陣〟という隔離された限定空間の中で、星系を破壊する規模の超絶エネルギーが荒れ狂った。

それは想像を絶する威力で、基軸世界という他の次元とは隔絶した強度を誇る舞台でなければ、〝八門堅陣〟どころか星そのものが跡形もなく消し飛んでいたはずだ。

So yeah, this entire section of yours falls apart due to blatant counter evidence.
Also, love how you were preaching OTL in the above section but moved to Slimereader since OTL mentions physical laws. Though "physical laws" is indeed a wrong translation, but does that mean my arguments are dismissed? Absolutely not. They are even more strengthened cuz we have a statement that Laws of a specific world > laws of physics:

強者には物理法則を完全に無視した動きをする者もいるので、思 い込みは危険なのだが、トルンの場合はキッチリと基軸世界の法則 に縛られているのは確認済みだった。
Some of the very strongest could move around in complete disregard of the laws of physics, so it was dangerous to assume too much, but Frey had already confirmed that Torun was bound by the laws of this key
world. OTL V20C1

Also, Veldanava established the Laws of the cardinal world in the same context that many parallel worlds branch from the Cardinal world. That obviously means the laws are limited to a specific planet because planets do not branch and nor do they have different laws:

だからこそ、退屈を紛らわせる為に世界を生み出した。その過程で、ヴェルダナーヴァと根源を同一とする 妹弟達──〝竜種〟が誕生する。

〝竜種〟が四体となった事で、混沌としていた世界が安定した。秩序が整ったのだ。

　これを管理する者として生み出したのが、〝始原の七天使〟である。安定した世界に法則が定められ、基軸 世界が確固たるものとなっていく。 孤独ではなくなったヴェルダナーヴァだったが、それでもまだ、心の空白を埋める事は出来なかった。捨て てしまった『万能』の代わりとなるには、世界は未熟過ぎたのだ。

基軸世界から派生して幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てで似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。

(V23)

Also, space itself is infused/filled with Magicules, not just planets or alike. Their strength simply comes from absorbing the Magicules existing in space and mutating.

The powers he enjoyed in the underworld were now limited; he could only produce the force of a newborn Arch Demon. That was enough for him, but lacking a body was tremendously inconvenient. He thought over why this had happened and quickly came up with an answer. He was in the demi-material world, not the realm of spiritual life-forms. The space around him wasn’t infused with magicules; simply being here consumed his at a ferocious rate. OTL V16 Epilogue
---------
He wondered why this was happening, and soon understood. This was a semi-material world, not a realm of spiritual beings. In a space that was not filled with magicules, simply staying there would consume energy. He, who had no connection with the creator god, did not understand how the world had been transformed. Slimereader

Now, the main difference between plain old ore and magical ore was that the latter could be obtained only in areas where higher-level monsters lurked. It required the combination of regular ore, a large concentration of magicules, and eons of time for the ore to absorb the magic and make the transformation—a sort of geological mutation.
V1C3 OTL

And worlds =/= planets, you never managed to firmly prove that lol

---

Wouldn't it be an AP feat work against your premise? Since if it is based on AP, that means Velgrynd, someone you claim to be able to destroy "weak worlds", which I believe I've proven to be planets, couldn't even be as strong as a Solar system attack. Or are you trying to say such a solar system would scale to low multiversal?

Not at all. AP (attack Potency) doesn't necessitate equivalent DC (destructive Capacity). There are a shit ton of tier 2 characters throughout wiki that scale to 2-A via (X fought Y who's 2-A) but X never has 2-A destruction feats.

An in-verse example is Disintegration. No matter how much you downplay a true Dragon's AP and dura, it's still far above the DC of disintegration which doesn't even encompass more than a few meters, and doesn't destroy the surrounding. But it can harm true dragons at least in the specific area it hits.

There can be a 2-A character with not even planetary DC but 2-A AP lmao, and that applies to all tiers.

Besides, that feat is only solar system level cuz it's surrounded by barriers that keep it from leaking out.

Via

(Sorry for not quoting the whole thing, for some reason I the reply button doesn't appear when I select the whole para)

I never claimed it is not vis environmental destruction. The point is that can. So the author's statement isn't wrong.

I'll use the quote feature this time cuz now the reply button isn't popping up at all.

Regarding the Raws​

それでも、被害は甚大だ。
Even so, the damage was immense.

〝八門堅陣〟という隔離された限定空間の中で、星系を破壊する規模の超絶エネルギーが荒れ狂った。
Within the isolated, restricted space known as the “Eight-Gates Fortress Array,” an overwhelmingly vast energy—on the scale of destroying an entire star system—raged violently.

それは想像を絶する威力で、基軸世界という他の次元とは隔絶した強度を誇る舞台でなければ、〝八門堅陣〟どころか星そのものが跡形もなく消し飛んでいたはずだ。
Its power was beyond imagination; if not for the stage being the Prime(Cardinal) World—whose strength is completely separated from that of other dimensions—not only the Eight-Gates Fortress Array, but the entire planet itself would have been blown away without a trace.

オベーラやザラリオと違って、フェルドウェイと一番近い思想の持ち主だった訳だ。
Unlike Obera or Zararío, he was the one whose ideology was closest to Feldway’s.

全次元、全世界の完全支配は、まだまだ遠く道半ばだ。
ヴェルダナーヴァが創った基軸世界から、観測が追い付かないほどの派生世界が誕生しているからである。
Complete domination of all dimensions and all worlds was still a distant, halfway goal at best.
This is because from the Prime(Cardinal) World created by Veldanava, so many derivative worlds are being born that they cannot even be fully observed.

This ^ would also work against other worlds being universes since its deriving from the Cardinal world. This is also calls to question whether or not Veldanava even created other worlds to begin with, since the other worlds are being "born" as derivative worlds from Veldanava's creation.

知性を獲得した人間達は、互いに刺激し合い予想も出来ない行動を取る。
それを放置してしまえば、直ぐに相争い自滅への道を歩み始めてしまうのだ。
Humans, once they acquired intelligence, provoked one another and acted in ways no one could predict.
If left unattended, they would immediately begin walking the path of conflict and mutual self-destruction.

基軸世界から派生して幾つかの世界が生まれていたが、その全てで似通った傾向が確認出来ていた。
Several worlds had branched off from the Prime World, yet in all of them the same tendency was confirmed.

それは、感情が原因である。
And the cause of it all was emotion.

それから何度も調整を繰り返し、人類が望むべき姿になるように発展させようと試みた。
He then repeated adjustments many times, attempting to develop humanity into the form it ought to aspire to.

[数多(あまた)の他次元並列世界にて条件を細かく変更して、異なる進化を遂げさせたのだ。]
Across countless parallel worlds in other dimensions, he finely altered the conditions, causing each to undergo different evolutions.

Once again, you're always assuming the negative even in the face of clear evidence and acting like they backup your claim when they in fact do not. Planets don't branch, nor do they have different laws (of physics and more fundamental). They also don't expand FTL in size.

For example, Mai herself said "even in the Universe of the same world, space continues to expand faster than light" whereas "same world" here means cardinal world since that's where she was residing.

Yuuki also observed a random universe from outside perspective and said this isn't our world (cardinal world). He wouldn't say that if the cardinal world was only a planet.

That entirely disapproves your claim that the Cardinal world is always a planet. The entire cardinal world is special and more durable, including the planet, the solar system, universe, and the cardinal world itself.

So essentially, it seems like these "worlds" derived from the Cardinal world, which is a planet, and if you need evidence, here and here. Which doesn't explain anything at all of how they came to be other than simply happening by chance.

All of this once again assumes one word always refers to the same structure? I wonder, when it comes to planet, you argue that worlds can mean planets and universes so context matters, but now here, you're acting like as if world always means the same thing, and that's just false equivalence.

Terms like "cardinal planet" and "cardinal universe" are weird in a normal non-battleboarding novel, so taking the side that the author must always use specific terms is, by all means, unnecessary biased. We apply powerscaling to verses, not vice versa lmao

---

So yeah, in the end your argument is mostly by assuming a perspective that's always in your favor and not even keeping that perspective constant. Need I say it out aloud, I don't see the need to make a separate reply to the "conclusions" since the premise itself is wrong.

---

Also, for the sake of not cluttering this staff thread with a lot of posts and turning it like the old 10+ page thread, I have a suggestion for all parties of both sides.

Let's use only one person to post all the arguments at once instead of everyone making separate posts. This not only allows for a united and stronger argument but also doesn't increase the page count unnecessarily. As for how that's possible, both sides can make their PMs or use another platform like discord to discuss among themselves before posting the argument as a single, big post instead of many small posts. We're already at the end of the first page with this being the 37th post.

@EldemadeDityjon @TheHyperGuy @PrimeHydra64 @PHANtomFELdway @Dog3352

Edit: Forgot to add; @PHANtomFELdway don't use MTL

 

[Antvasima]

Ant thanks for the ping. I'll comment on this later. There are few things which goes against what OP is claiming. @TheHyperGuy covered most of the points. I'll try to tackle the remaining stuff.
Can you also please give @Dog3352 permission to comment here.

Yes. That is fine.

@Dog3352

 

[Community_Gamer]

I have to agree with the OP as of now, the arguments from the opposition just seem like bad-faith arguments or biased arguments not grounded in truth or consistency. I'm not trying to call anyone out but as an outsider with relative knowledge, that is my perspective.

From what I can tell the crux of the argument is proving that "worlds" refers to planets in nearly every context. If they can't do this then they quite literally have zero argument to stand on. I suggest this becomes the focus of the thread because, without this, there's no argument to be had.

 

[TheHyperGuy]

I have to agree with the OP as of now, the arguments from the opposition just seem like bad-faith arguments or biased arguments not grounded in truth or consistency. I'm not trying to call anyone out but as an outsider with relative knowledge, that is my perspective.

From what I can tell the crux of the argument is proving that "worlds" refers to planets in nearly every context. If they can't do this then they quite literally have zero argument to stand on. I suggest this becomes the focus of the thread because, without this, there's no argument to be had.

My argument isnt world = planets, it's "other worlds" = planets. World and other worlds are separate concepts in the series.

And since so far im the only opposition to post on this thread, I'd appreciate not calling my arguments "bad-faith", "biased" and especially not "not grounded in truth". Thanks!