It's pretty clear Feldway did it tho (destroying the Universe). Ciel already confirmed that Ivarage didn't destroy the world. And if Ivarage had destroyed the Universe, Ciel would have said Ivarage, not "Feldway's powers" lmao
As for the kanji, @MrTayman616 comfirmed it means destroying as in the literal most sense. "Erasure" although not the same is also still close, and could be a possible translation.
And your own "how" part also ignores the fact that Ciel confirmed Ivarage didn't destroy the world while also distinguishing between a Universe and a world.
Have you ever considered the notion that a debunk isn't always a successful one? Lol
Oh, sure. Should have asked for a direct link from the start:
His initial translations passed the test from @SeijiSetto so yes
Aand there goes the world = planet again. Planets don't have different laws of physics lmaoThe laws would still "govern" the planets that reside in the dimensions
Like, just because the other worlds are stated to be governed by laws, doesn't entail they HAVE to be the dimensions.
It can be interpreted as both depending on context. And since we have statements of characters that can destroy Dimensions not being able to destroy the Cardinal world, there goes your lowest interpretation streak lol
I already did, but again, you not understanding it isn't my problem lmao. That's for the staff to judge on who was successful and who wasn't, since otherwise this argument can just go back and forth forever.
Already did, so same as above.
Simply because your premise (evidence) and your conclusion (claims) aren't connected at all. I need not prove an evidence wrong that doesn't even go along with the thing being claimed.
Ah, "0 context", so different laws of physics, branching worlds, worlds having interstellar civilizations, example worlds being seen as universes (since characters that can't perceive Time can't perceive the difference branches and Hypertime), space in worlds expanding ft, all of them are thrown outta the window. Very good.
A bad manipulation of context. Good job once again dude
Yet at the same time you also say "prove my evidence wrong", that not hoe it works lmao.Im saying you are using a fallacy wrong, not that you cant call fallacies
You've used fallacies wrong the entire time. And yes, me putting a "maybe" in there, does matter since it proves im only sending out an interpretation, not a truth claim. You would have to provide equal interpretation in order for my interpretation to be challenged, which i havent seen you do.
Same as a bit above
No?
-_-
Not really. That depends on which fallacy it is. Obviously if you claim "X character is FTL" without a single proof or scan, and I call BoP on you, it didn't make your statement magically factual lol
Then go ahead and create a better one, cuz no body other than you have complained it's bad. Not even the staff.
Uhh??
Same as above
You do know you ought to clarify what you mean by a source right? A link, the person who translated it, or something else.
No my fault your own evidence doesn't even back up your claims when viewed from a broader context.
First Argument: Other Worlds are Planets:
Here are Astral's arguments with my refutations.
The issue here is that Astral refuses to directly challenge the evidence I bring, so much so that he says it doesn't exist in his very first mention of my evidence, also calling it irrelevant, trying to excuse directly attacking it.
Not only that, he has failed to even provide solid evidence that other worlds are universes or something larger than a planet. Considering he has yet to produce any opposing evidence to back up his refutations of my evidence, I don't see how this should be taken as a valid refutation.
All he has made are claims without proof. So considering he hasn't provided any contradictory evidence to my evidence, his refutations are not supported.
His biggest pieces of "evidence" are that these worlds are governed by different laws, which doesn't matter since if a dimension/universe has set laws differing for others, the things inside would naturally be "governed" by those laws. So this is irrelevant.
Second Argument: Dimensions are Universes
Here are Astral's Arguments with my refutations.
The main bottom line is the inability to track my arguments and suggest that the premise isn't what Astral is saying, which is just a blatant straw man and a red herring.
He attacked points I never made, and circumvented the evidence again, which is a common theme with his arguments. From his perspective, there are Universes inside worlds inside dimensions. Now nothing there is ever proven with consistent and concrete evidence, this is just interpretations and claims coming from hasty generalization, Sagan standard would be implemented to call for more concrete evidence of those things having that type of relationship which doesn't involve guesswork and pure subjective interpretation.
Third Argument: Feldway didn't Destroy the Universe
So he says Feldway destroyed the universe which should make the Cardinal planet, a stronger structure to destroy because he himself needed others to destroy the Sacred tree in order to destroy the world as a result. Thing is, he was implied to task Ivarage with "destroying the world/universe". Not only that, we are strictly told the world isn't destroy, and that the universe is still standing around in order to move around in.
There is too many instances of the fact that the world/universe/space-time was in fact NOT destroyed/erased in the literal sense or by Feldway and Ivarage. Especially when the Stars themselves ran through their entire life cycle, meaning they were not destroyed and somehow managed to survive the collapse of a universe while having no divine protection stated.
"the stars had long since exhausted their natural lifespan." They weren't Destroyed by feldway? or Ivarage?
Instead of addressing this he refuses to challenge my evidence supplying the necessary proof that Ivarage was the one threatening the universe or world, not Feldway, and that none of them even actually destroyed the universe, we get this;
Nothing in the volume 21 epilogue suggests Milim had ANY part in destroying the universe. The Sacred tree is to defend the planet, which is consistent with the narrative. The Tree has nothing to do with the universe itself, and Astral's own evidence supports that.
And since Feldway wouldn't scale to even the Cardinal world/planet;
This would support the fact that Feldway has no way to scale to the universe itself, nor even the Cardinal Planet as only top tiers could destroy it, top tiers mind you that have max star system statements as "potential", meaning the Cardinal Planet isn't on par with even the Potential of these characters.
TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)
The hero's unique skill "attack name(dunno what tensura translated it as :d)"originally seals its target away in an infinite imaginary space for eternity, seems to be not a power lenient enough to allow interference to the real world. Thought about the attack name for like a minute lmao. (don't...vsbattles.com
Now, before we suggest that it's due to the range and not Ap that Milim wouldn't be capped at Star system/multi-solar, there is nothing to suggest, especially with each point being in question, she scales to beings that have been able to concretely destroy anything larger.
Also, since Rimuru and Ciel have no way to view the surrounding areas, when discussing about the world not being destroyed by ivarage, it can only mean the universe since there is 0 ways to perceive that planets exist at the end of time and space.
So Feldway has no implications or even statements to confirm he has the capability to destroy the universe, which would make the Sacred tree somehow Low 2-C durability because Feldway lacks the ability to destroy it. So unless there is contradictory evidence for that being the case, we can just dismiss that interpretation, which leads most of the points voided.
Fourth Argument: World Destroying Feats + Breakdown Nostalgia
Now this will Include all three world destroying feats and the Vol 21 quad feat.
Breakdown Nostalgia
Breakdown Nostalgia is a simple matter, if Astral concedes to it being based on Ap, he is suggesting the Velgrynd is weaker than a Solar system Ap attack. Yes Ap doesn't equate to Dc, but Dc does equate to Ap. If someone has the DC to do something, if said ability is in a concentrated form, that turns said ability to AP to reduce the splash, but the issue is you just conceded that Nostalgia Breakdown is a Solar System AP feat. Meaning when they mention that it surpasses Velgrynd in terms of power, you would therefore have to concede Velgrynd, a top tier in the verse who should be superior if not relative to Zalario, doesn't surpass solar system.
A Revision about a World of Slimes - Back to Tier 2 (Cosmology)
Introduction Good morning/evening everyone, hope ya'll are doing fine. Considering Volume 22 has added some more context to what we thought before, I decided to try a revision to get the verse back to Tier 2 in general. As always, avoid any toxic behavior or derailing! Also, don't start...
Now yes, you could argue that Zalario has the range while Velgrynd doesn't, but when has Velgrynds range ever been implied to be lower than Zalario? Don't use the Zalario dimension destruction, because I'm calling that line into question. What other pieces of evidence would support Zalarion having more range than Velgrynd? who could somehow "destroy weak worlds" which you are trying to argue are space-times.
All of it's strength to be Universal (by your claims) but is weaker than Solar system Ap?
Carrera's Abyss Annihilation
Considering this point was made to just dispute the fact that Velgrynd wouldn't scale to Carrera's power but instead magical prowess, I don't see any reason to disagree with that interpretation, but the fact that I just disputed Velgrynd being anything above Solar system would add validity to the fact this could mean in both power and prowess since the idea is that is magic control is rivaling Velgrynd which implies velgrynd being able to manage the same amount of magicules.
Guy Crimson's World Destruction Feat
So the main premise to this point, is that the Demons could destroy the Cardinal world/planet via the Gates of Hell and unleashing the void to "swallow up" the planet. Which I don't have any issues. It's not like this scales to them at all, nor would it even scale to Ap since it uses void energy which erases things, so only that hax would be upgraded to the range, not the Ap.
Velgrynd affecting Parallel Spaces
So this one, really isn't much of a point to keep arguing since my main issues with this would be what Velgrynd was affecting. It was just the planet, which is insinuated by my evidence regarding what the term "other worlds" mean, and that it would imply a planet or civilization in a local scale.
And regarding this;
This would just be talking about Velgrynd's magical presence is a threat to these other worlds, which I'm implying are planets.
It also talks about destroying OR invading, which we know the plan is to invade the planet then reach out to the entire space-time;
It's clear at this point that even Phantoms who would invade the "world" could also destroy the planets by their magical elements. So This is clearly discussing the planets themselves, not the entire space-time. Which is pretty consistent with what we are told up to this point about Velgrynd's power and how fragile other worlds are.
Final Argument (Main Premise): Zalario Dimension Destruction
So with all that in mind, there's no reason to suggest the Zalario himself is responsible for the collapse of dimensions, and if he is, there is no evidence to suggest that the dimensions he destroyed are the same as the dimensions/unvierses that contain other worlds. Or how Astral is interpreting the series, Dimensions that hold worlds that hold universes.
My explanation for the sizes of dimensions still stands to cause doubt in what dimensions Zalario is actually destroying, which Astral has never once argued that Dimensions vary greatly in size, which would require specification on what type of dimensions Zalario "destroyed".
Also, he doesn't want to directly challenge my argument AGAIN, so he calls it an assumption when nothing in there was assumptious but the only one making the assumptions is Astral trying to connect volume 16 prologue with the factions destroying dimensions to the one off statement of Zalario destroying dimensions.
Now, is it a possibility that Zalario was active or at least commaned to destroy dimensions in Vol 16 prologue, sure, but there is no evidence to suggest he did so nor was he the sole perpetrator in doing so.
Like I mentioned with the Feldway Universe situation, Feldway got credit for something Milim and Ivarage did. He did nothing directly, and was still stated by Ciel to be the one to "destroy" the universe. Now unless she means indirectly, or being the cause why they are seeing the end of the universe, then that's a different situation. Bottom line is, Feldway was credited for something he had no direct cause of, so why can't that be the same in the Zalario case? We have 0 context for what that line implies other than an assumption made by Astral to suggest that it's referring back to the Prologue stuff about the factions destroying other dimensions.
So there's a clear lack of evidence to support that Zalario destroyed dimensions, at least the ones that are universes or containers for worlds that contain universes, and lack of evidence that Zalario was the only factor in their demise. That's also ignoring the fact that the term "destroy" in kanji can mean to wreck or to ruin. So unless there is clear evidence that these dimensions no longer exist, and are simply not just desolate wastelands, then I don't see a reason why Zalario scales anywhere particular with said evidence provided.
This is also coupled with the fact that not one top tier in the verse, beings above Zalario, have dimension destroying feats as per Astrals interpretation of dimensions. Rimuru's best feat, as someone who surpasses Zalario completely, is Multi Universal. Which Combines the power of Rimuru, Veldora, Velgrynd and Velzard together. So if Zalario somehow has a better feat, in Astral's Interpretation, that's EOS Rimuru with 3 true-dragon Nuclei, than everything about Zalario destroying dimensions is completely misinterpreted by Astral.
Luvarage/Le Varage, has the only multi-dimensional collapse, which if my evidence on dimension = Universe, this would be highly consistent on just multi universal.
Conclusion;
- There's more evidence to suggest that other worlds are planets, and Astral made no strive to prove why his interpretations are even valid instead of just discrediting mine and also just flat out ignoring that context I provided.
- Dimensions, the ones I'm suggesting are the timelines that contains planets, have more context to prove they are Universes than a structure that contains worlds that contains universes. Even Astral has no confirmation nor proof that shows Dimensions housing multiples universes. So a lack of contradictory evidence to the evidence I brought is clear.
- It was clear Feldway didn't destroy the Universe but was still credited for it's ruin.
- The other world destroying feats do not pertain to anything important as 2-C scaling since that was only regarding the planets either through means beyond their power or suggesting a planet in general.
- And finally there is 0 evidence to conclude that Zalario did anything to these Dimensions/Universes or Dimensions that house worlds that house Universes, by himself. There are tons of different types of dimensions which must be specified on which dimensions Zalario destroyed with Extraordinary evidence to conclude such interpretations via Sagan Standard. And lastly Zalario, by Astral's interpretation, would have a better feat than, EOS rimuru with 3 dragon Nuclei to boost his power.
EDIT: Hypertimelines;
Nothing here supports the existence of Hypertimelines. As I've already proven in the thread, Rimuru was merely sent to the end of time in his universe. Stated to be the "distant future". So time warp worked because the timeline was still there. So this completely debunks your interpretation and the idea that hypertimelines exist.
EDIT: Cardinal World = Planet
This isn't difficult, simple scan would showcase this;
\
Cardinal/key world indisputably called a planet.
The following is the summary from the supporting side:Can each side provide a post that explains all of their arguments in an easily understood manner please?
I've made the summary aboveThank you for helping out.
erasure is just a close meaning to destroy in english of course but we cant really apply that to japanese and say the literal translation of the kanji is erasure. so please just go with destroy translation better.
The amount of "long replies" doesn't mean anything. Both sides were asked to provide a summary, both sides provided a summary. That's it. The summary is there exactly to stop further arguing before evaluation.
Both mean pretty much the same thing in our context. Plus the distinction was already provided, so it won't pose any confusion to evaluation
The timeline is still intact. Rimuru going back to the past proves it. Not even once was it stated that the timeline got destroyed, erased, or even implied.
That world should be special case too since it was used to seal Iverage same guy who can destroy Cardinal world planet which not many characters in the verse can do and stated to be eventually destroy the world.
Supported by this Ciel was able to observe the universe reaching its end.
The author repeatedly states that it’s an interdimensional space between dimensions, which is also called subspace, multiple times—even at the last moment when they jumped into it and came back to the Cardinal World.
But when Rimuru used Time Leap, he jumped into subspace where the illustration shows other light spheres beside him,
andhe also comments on choosing the right world to jump into this time since the first time was a failure or mistake.
jisho.org
It was established that Parallel world doesn't exist. The same Kanji is used here below. You can check the raws in the linked message.
Even wiki states the
As for "Worldline," its meaning can vary depending on the context. What I want to emphasize is that "worldline" is not referring to other timelines or parallel timelines. Velgrnd is simply confirming that this is not a parallel universe of the same world—nothing more. This does not prove the existence of parallel worlds. You can clearly see she was just talking about checking history; it’s simply tracing the object, nothing more.
Same Kanji used to represent parallel realities realities in Vol 11 which was debunked in this thread that Parallel Realities can't coexist. Got two approval. Though you can still contact Finepoint and ask his stance.
Tayman translation
Now, I’m pretty sure you might bring up the statement about humanity being born in a parallel universe scan. But here are the raws: the kanji for "parallel" used here means "arranged in a line or connection." If you check the Seijo translation, it states "as if," meaning it’s just a comparison. It says, "as if connected to a parallel universe in a different dimension, humanity born". (Though universe is not stated there it was sekai) It’s not saying parallel worlds exist in other dimensions, nor that multiple worlds exist there. It’s simply a comparison to describe humanity’s birth. Same Kanji is used in Vol 23.
This scan also shows World and dimensions being used interchangeably. The explanation continues in a single logical chain. There is nothing new introduced in there.
This is supported by the fact that when Iverage was introduced, it was mentioned she might have come from the far reaches of the Universe or another dimension, which shows the author is using "universe" and "dimension" interchangeably.
So if what you really claimed to be true and there are multiple Worlds within same universe/dimension/World Iverage could have come from any one of those but above scan states something else. Also translation states another world here but it's actually Otherworld where Iverage was sealed.
I agree with these conclusions (some of it is just how the standards work) and most of the arguments that support them, but I do not agree with the Dimensions=World arguments and Universe is just 3-A (I agree in just Feldway's feat) in every case.
From the supporting side, yes, it's this one.Which summary posts should I quote during my next ping of staff members here?
Would the following ones be sufficient?
A Revision about a World of Slimes - Back to Tier 2 (Cosmology)
@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @CrimsonStarFallen @Everything12 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? 🙏
Since there are some major differences between @EldemadeDityjon's arguments and @TheHyperGuy's arguments, I'd say quoting both of those summaries would be necessary.A Revision about a World of Slimes - Back to Tier 2 (Cosmology)
@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @CrimsonStarFallen @Everything12 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please? 🙏
My First issue is that Astral has a clear issue with citing these translations in order for opposition to question them and argue it's validity. Which I've asked 3 times in this thread. So since he isn't willing to do so, I don't think any of his translations without correct citations should be taken seriously.
Other main issues with Astral, is that he references his sandbox as evidence when I'm calling to question the validity of those interpretations, and he uses the already contended "evidence" has evidence to support his claims, which is Circular Reasoning. He hasn't once defend why the sandbox "evidence" should be interpretated as such, and some aren't even accepted to be the case nor have links to evidence, such as Dimensions containing multiple universes.
Next I'll start addressing the main arguments. These are also not necessarily in order of the timeline of this thread.
First Argument: Other Worlds are Planets:
Here are Astral's arguments with my refutations.
The issue here is that Astral refuses to directly challenge the evidence I bring, so much so that he says it doesn't exist in his very first mention of my evidence, also calling it irrelevant, trying to excuse directly attacking it.
Not only that, he has failed to even provide solid evidence that other worlds are universes or something larger than a planet. Considering he has yet to produce any opposing evidence to back up his refutations of my evidence, I don't see how this should be taken as a valid refutation.
All he has made are claims without proof. So considering he hasn't provided any contradictory evidence to my evidence, his refutations are not supported.
His biggest pieces of "evidence" are that these worlds are governed by different laws, which doesn't matter since if a dimension/universe has set laws differing for others, the things inside would naturally be "governed" by those laws. So this is irrelevant.
Second Argument: Dimensions are Universes
Here are Astral's Arguments with my refutations.
The main bottom line is the inability to track my arguments and suggest that the premise isn't what Astral is saying, which is just a blatant straw man and a red herring.
He attacked points I never made, and circumvented the evidence again, which is a common theme with his arguments. From his perspective, there are Universes inside worlds inside dimensions. Now nothing there is ever proven with consistent and concrete evidence, this is just interpretations and claims coming from hasty generalization, Sagan standard would be implemented to call for more concrete evidence of those things having that type of relationship which doesn't involve guesswork and pure subjective interpretation.
Third Argument: Feldway didn't Destroy the Universe
So he says Feldway destroyed the universe which should make the Cardinal planet, a stronger structure to destroy because he himself needed others to destroy the Sacred tree in order to destroy the world as a result. Thing is, he was implied to task Ivarage with "destroying the world/universe". Not only that, we are strictly told the world isn't destroy, and that the universe is still standing around in order to move around in.
There is too many instances of the fact that the world/universe/space-time was in fact NOT destroyed/erased in the literal sense or by Feldway and Ivarage. Especially when the Stars themselves ran through their entire life cycle, meaning they were not destroyed and somehow managed to survive the collapse of a universe while having no divine protection stated.
"the stars had long since exhausted their natural lifespan." They weren't Destroyed by feldway? or Ivarage?
Instead of addressing this he refuses to challenge my evidence supplying the necessary proof that Ivarage was the one threatening the universe or world, not Feldway, and that none of them even actually destroyed the universe, we get this;
Nothing in the volume 21 epilogue suggests Milim had ANY part in destroying the universe. The Sacred tree is to defend the planet, which is consistent with the narrative. The Tree has nothing to do with the universe itself, and Astral's own evidence supports that.
And since Feldway wouldn't scale to even the Cardinal world/planet;
This would support the fact that Feldway has no way to scale to the universe itself, nor even the Cardinal Planet as only top tiers could destroy it, top tiers mind you that have max star system statements as "potential", meaning the Cardinal Planet isn't on par with even the Potential of these characters.
TenSura LN Major Misleading Revision - Part 3 (Revised)
The hero's unique skill "attack name(dunno what tensura translated it as :d)"originally seals its target away in an infinite imaginary space for eternity, seems to be not a power lenient enough to allow interference to the real world. Thought about the attack name for like a minute lmao. (don't...
Now, before we suggest that it's due to the range and not Ap that Milim wouldn't be capped at Star system/multi-solar, there is nothing to suggest, especially with each point being in question, she scales to beings that have been able to concretely destroy anything larger.
Also, since Rimuru and Ciel have no way to view the surrounding areas, when discussing about the world not being destroyed by ivarage, it can only mean the universe since there is 0 ways to perceive that planets exist at the end of time and space.
So Feldway has no implications or even statements to confirm he has the capability to destroy the universe, which would make the Sacred tree somehow Low 2-C durability because Feldway lacks the ability to destroy it. So unless there is contradictory evidence for that being the case, we can just dismiss that interpretation, which leads most of the points voided.
Fourth Argument: World Destroying Feats + Breakdown Nostalgia
Now this will Include all three world destroying feats and the Vol 21 quad feat.
Breakdown Nostalgia
Breakdown Nostalgia is a simple matter, if Astral concedes to it being based on Ap, he is suggesting the Velgrynd is weaker than a Solar system Ap attack. Yes Ap doesn't equate to Dc, but Dc does equate to Ap. If someone has the DC to do something, if said ability is in a concentrated form, that turns said ability to AP to reduce the splash, but the issue is you just conceded that Nostalgia Breakdown is a Solar System AP feat. Meaning when they mention that it surpasses Velgrynd in terms of power, you would therefore have to concede Velgrynd, a top tier in the verse who should be superior if not relative to Zalario, doesn't surpass solar system.
A Revision about a World of Slimes - Back to Tier 2 (Cosmology)
Introduction Good morning/evening everyone, hope ya'll are doing fine. Considering Volume 22 has added some more context to what we thought before, I decided to try a revision to get the verse back to Tier 2 in general. As always, avoid any toxic behavior or derailing! Also, don't start...
Now yes, you could argue that Zalario has the range while Velgrynd doesn't, but when has Velgrynds range ever been implied to be lower than Zalario? Don't use the Zalario dimension destruction, because I'm calling that line into question. What other pieces of evidence would support Zalarion having more range than Velgrynd? who could somehow "destroy weak worlds" which you are trying to argue are space-times.
All of it's strength to be Universal (by your claims) but is weaker than Solar system Ap?
Carrera's Abyss Annihilation
Considering this point was made to just dispute the fact that Velgrynd wouldn't scale to Carrera's power but instead magical prowess, I don't see any reason to disagree with that interpretation, but the fact that I just disputed Velgrynd being anything above Solar system would add validity to the fact this could mean in both power and prowess since the idea is that is magic control is rivaling Velgrynd which implies velgrynd being able to manage the same amount of magicules.
Guy Crimson's World Destruction Feat
So the main premise to this point, is that the Demons could destroy the Cardinal world/planet via the Gates of Hell and unleashing the void to "swallow up" the planet. Which I don't have any issues. It's not like this scales to them at all, nor would it even scale to Ap since it uses void energy which erases things, so only that hax would be upgraded to the range, not the Ap.
Velgrynd affecting Parallel Spaces
So this one, really isn't much of a point to keep arguing since my main issues with this would be what Velgrynd was affecting. It was just the planet, which is insinuated by my evidence regarding what the term "other worlds" mean, and that it would imply a planet or civilization in a local scale.
And regarding this;
This would just be talking about Velgrynd's magical presence is a threat to these other worlds, which I'm implying are planets.
It also talks about destroying OR invading, which we know the plan is to invade the planet then reach out to the entire space-time;
It's clear at this point that even Phantoms who would invade the "world" could also destroy the planets by their magical elements. So This is clearly discussing the planets themselves, not the entire space-time. Which is pretty consistent with what we are told up to this point about Velgrynd's power and how fragile other worlds are.
Final Argument (Main Premise): Zalario Dimension Destruction
So with all that in mind, there's no reason to suggest the Zalario himself is responsible for the collapse of dimensions, and if he is, there is no evidence to suggest that the dimensions he destroyed are the same as the dimensions/unvierses that contain other worlds. Or how Astral is interpreting the series, Dimensions that hold worlds that hold universes.
My explanation for the sizes of dimensions still stands to cause doubt in what dimensions Zalario is actually destroying, which Astral has never once argued that Dimensions vary greatly in size, which would require specification on what type of dimensions Zalario "destroyed".
Also, he doesn't want to directly challenge my argument AGAIN, so he calls it an assumption when nothing in there was assumptious but the only one making the assumptions is Astral trying to connect volume 16 prologue with the factions destroying dimensions to the one off statement of Zalario destroying dimensions.
Now, is it a possibility that Zalario was active or at least commaned to destroy dimensions in Vol 16 prologue, sure, but there is no evidence to suggest he did so nor was he the sole perpetrator in doing so.
Like I mentioned with the Feldway Universe situation, Feldway got credit for something Milim and Ivarage did. He did nothing directly, and was still stated by Ciel to be the one to "destroy" the universe. Now unless she means indirectly, or being the cause why they are seeing the end of the universe, then that's a different situation. Bottom line is, Feldway was credited for something he had no direct cause of, so why can't that be the same in the Zalario case? We have 0 context for what that line implies other than an assumption made by Astral to suggest that it's referring back to the Prologue stuff about the factions destroying other dimensions.
So there's a clear lack of evidence to support that Zalario destroyed dimensions, at least the ones that are universes or containers for worlds that contain universes, and lack of evidence that Zalario was the only factor in their demise. That's also ignoring the fact that the term "destroy" in kanji can mean to wreck or to ruin. So unless there is clear evidence that these dimensions no longer exist, and are simply not just desolate wastelands, then I don't see a reason why Zalario scales anywhere particular with said evidence provided.
This is also coupled with the fact that not one top tier in the verse, beings above Zalario, have dimension destroying feats as per Astrals interpretation of dimensions. Rimuru's best feat, as someone who surpasses Zalario completely, is Multi Universal. Which Combines the power of Rimuru, Veldora, Velgrynd and Velzard together. So if Zalario somehow has a better feat, in Astral's Interpretation, that's EOS Rimuru with 3 true-dragon Nuclei, than everything about Zalario destroying dimensions is completely misinterpreted by Astral.
Luvarage/Le Varage, has the only multi-dimensional collapse, which if my evidence on dimension = Universe, this would be highly consistent on just multi universal.
Conclusion;
- There's more evidence to suggest that other worlds are planets, and Astral made no strive to prove why his interpretations are even valid instead of just discrediting mine and also just flat out ignoring that context I provided.
- Dimensions, the ones I'm suggesting are the timelines that contains planets, have more context to prove they are Universes than a structure that contains worlds that contains universes. Even Astral has no confirmation nor proof that shows Dimensions housing multiples universes. So a lack of contradictory evidence to the evidence I brought is clear.
- It was clear Feldway didn't destroy the Universe but was still credited for it's ruin.
- The other world destroying feats do not pertain to anything important as 2-C scaling since that was only regarding the planets either through means beyond their power or suggesting a planet in general.
- And finally there is 0 evidence to conclude that Zalario did anything to these Dimensions/Universes or Dimensions that house worlds that house Universes, by himself. There are tons of different types of dimensions which must be specified on which dimensions Zalario destroyed with Extraordinary evidence to conclude such interpretations via Sagan Standard. And lastly Zalario, by Astral's interpretation, would have a better feat than, EOS rimuru with 3 dragon Nuclei to boost his power.
EDIT: Hypertimelines;
Nothing here supports the existence of Hypertimelines. As I've already proven in the thread, Rimuru was merely sent to the end of time in his universe. Stated to be the "distant future". So time warp worked because the timeline was still there. So this completely debunks your interpretation and the idea that hypertimelines exist.
EDIT: Cardinal World = Planet
This isn't difficult, simple scan would showcase this;
\
Cardinal/key world indisputably called a planet.
The following is the summary from the supporting side:
The scans of whatever is claimed beyond this point is in the OP and the sandbox. Otherwise, if not found there, they will be somewhere in this CRT (you can check this, this, this, this, this, this and this post)
As for why these scans aren't in the OP or the sandbox, it's either of the following reasons:
- They don't have a translation and are used as Japanese raws for the understanding of both sides.
- They aren't particularly related to what is said on the sandbox and more particularly to the arguments brought later.
- They are basically the "absolute details" versions of what is already said in the OP and sandbox.
- They don't make a point in and of itself related to the sandbox or OP (such as stuff related to Hypertime) and are simply there to counter the arguments.
Other Worlds are 2-C
A world is a collection of all paralell universe/branching worlds. The amount of these paralell worlds is beyond what observation can keep up with.
Worlds have
The only difference between a "world" and "another world" is that "world" alone usually is in context to the Cardinal world, where the main plot of the narrative plays out. It's the central world and the "main" world in the sense that Veldanava resided in it as well, one could say. However, this can shift depending on context and be applied to any world in general.
"Other Worlds" on the other hand simply refer to worlds other than that which the speaker belongs to. For example, for Rimuru, the Cardinal world is his home world currently and the rest are other worlds. From a perspective of characters from other worlds, the same applies.
That's the only difference, narratively speaking AND taking narrative convenience into consideration.
"Other Worlds" have different laws of physics and other laws more fundamental than physics. Worlds also branch, so they definitely aren't planets.
Different Space-Times: Other Worlds are also difference space-time Continuums. How is this proven?
Basically, Velgrynd can produce accurate coordinates of any place within her local space-time (continuum). However, if we're talking about other worlds that she didn't exist in at any moment, she cannot produce accurate coordinates and can only go to somewhere spatially and Temporally around the desired coordinates.
For example, some times Velgrynd arrives when Rudra's incarnation is at his death bed, and sometimes when they are a child, etc etc. she can't control the specific time she would go to. Her ability let's her go to other worlds and even other dimensions, but she can only ACCURATELY acquire coordinates of places within her local space-time (continuum).
So basically other worlds are different space-time coordinates.
Dimesnions are Universes
Well, this is an argument brought up claiming that Universes are Dimesnions.
The main problem with this is that the arguer is mainly taking the mention of "worlds" as literal and having a constant meaning, when the term can refer to various things (a planet, a universe, a world-line, a dimesnion, or all of existence), and it is context that determines which one it's referring to, which the current opposition ignores.
Now, to the actual evidence: universes are evidentally contained within worlds, and worlds within dimensions.
The reason for the latter are the following:
- Phrases like "even in the Universe of the same world world", "Universe of the Cardinal world" etc. indicate Universes are a thing that belongs to worlds, not vice versa.
- The Cardinal World's planet's lifespan ends, its universe is destroyed as a timeline, but the world (cardinal world) itself does not collapse/is destroyed, and only ends naturally after literally infinite time passes. (This is stuff about hypertimelines but since it's not a tier 2 thing, don't focus too much on this).
- Velgrynd hints on how if she was in a parallel world following the same laws and origin, she would still be under the same World-Line (another more specific name for "World" as a whole).
Since Dimensions > Worlds > Universes, it shows that Universes aren't at all dimesnion or vice versa.
- There are beings that can travel between worlds (where worlds explicity refers to things that contain universes), but can't go to different dimesnions.
- It is shown that Aggressors is a race that exists in all dimensions, but they reside in an other world called "Otherworld" (literally) which overlaps with at least 2 different other worlds. The other world is also shown to consistenly be larger than many Universes.
- In one specific case, we are given three worlds (Otherworld, Elemental World, Demon World). In the same context another force comes "from a different dimesnion" instead of any of the three worlds, and is annihilated by one of the three forces in the Otherworld.
- It is shown that Mai originally goes to Subspace (gap between dimensions) but then is caught up in a phase fluctuation that basically BFRs her to a place where she observed worlds. However, in V21 it is also said that the place that Subspace BFRs you to is an "other dimensional space" (space inside another dimension).
Feldway did destroy the Universe
Basically, the main argument is that Ivarage was the one who destroyed the universe of the Cardinal world. But that isn't at all true as Ivarage is only capable of doing so, but NEVER DID.
Otherwise Ciel has literally zero reason to say that it was specifically "Feldway's powers" that destroyed the Universe. In the same context she also says that afterwards, what Ivarage did was unknown but it's confirmed that the world wasn't destroyed by her. That quite literally proves that Ivarage had no relation to destroying the Universe, it was done by Feldway.
The arguer gives statements of Feldway not being able to destroy the universe, but that misses the entire context that the Divine Tree was infact still standing during that time. Feldway can't destroy the tree because it's a special thing created by Veldanava (the creator of everything, all worlds and dimensions), and the Tree protects the entire cardinal world as it's the linchpin of said world.
However, Milim, as Veldanava's daugher, can indeed destroy the Divine tree with her Dragon nova (blatantly stated to be the only character with the sole attack capable of destroying the Divine tree), Feldway needs her help in doing exactly that. That didn't disapprove that Feldway couldn't destroy the Cardinal world at all, though.
So Milim destroys the Divine tree -> Feldway destroys the Cardinal world's universe as a timeline -> infinite time (Hypertime) passes -> world ends naturally.
Breakdown Nostalgia
The main oppositionis two things:
The answer to the first one is basically the first part of the second; it's an AP feat. ANOTHER answer is that the attack's process itself includes isolating the attack inside a barrier, and EVEN THEN it would destroy the solar system. That goes to show the barriers that frickin huge and strong to isolate an attack surpassing 2-C in a mere solar system range.
- Its range is Solar System level.
- Even if you take it as AP, that still means it surpasses Velgrynd (who should be 2-C) even by AP alone.
The answer to the second one is the second part of what I said above, AND that the Cardinal world itself (everything in it included) is super difficult to destroy as that's how it's created by the Creator God. And that's blatantly stated as shown in the OP.
So basically it's similar to that situation where we have several layers of 2-A where one 2-A structure or character is more difficult to destroy than another or etc. Difference here is that here it's 2-C and not 2-A.
A similar case is in Maou Gakuin where a universe-desroying spell can't even destroy a single ship in a higher/deeper world.
Abyss Annihilation
Apparently it's called comparable to Velgrynd who's 2-C, yet it was only shown to destroy the planet.
Well that's not exactly true in either way you interpret it.
First off, the "comparable" aspect was not in raws power but in sofisticated magic control. And that was because Carrera had acquired an Ultimate Skill at that time, which allows you to control magic that PRECISELY.
Second off, even if not comparable to Velgrynd in raw power and only magic control, it was stated to be capable of destroying a dimesnion created by Velgrynd (Who is 2-C).
Guy Crimson's World Destruction Feat
The OP argues how this can be considered a destruction feat but as it's not done by the character's own power, it's irrelevant.
That however, ignores the fact that we often index environmental destruction feats, as well as "X tier, Y via summoning stuff" (an example being Rimuru himself).
And the main point here is that Guy CAN destroy the Cardinal world. Whatever means he uses doesn't matter since that doesn't change the fact that he can still destroy the world.
Additonal note, this surpasses even Feldway as the summoned Abyss can destroy even the Divine Tree without Milim. This doesn't make Drago Nova "not the only attack capable of doing so" though as it's more so a summon and not a direct attack.
Velgrynd effecting Parallel Spaces
The original argument against this in the previous thread was that it wasn't a destruction feat and more so a time travel feat. But that's proven wrong in this CRT as the WoG not only talks about direct world destruction by Velzard but also for another reason:
Time Travel itself requires one to have enough energy to be capable of destroying at least the structure that they are time travelling in. For example, time travelling in the Cardinal world requires enough energy to destroy the Cardinal world. Time travel in any of the other worlds requires enough energy to destroy that world whole, and so on and so forth.
The opposition in this thread is that "worlds" are planets so if doesn't matter, but that is proven wrong by things described above.
Zalario destroying Dimesnions
The main opposition is that:
The first one is proven utterly wrong by the translator @MrTayman616, who has said that it indeed means destruction as in truly destruction, not conquering/overthrowing.
- "Destruction" here means more so conquering rather than actual destruction (like destroying a mountain etc.)
- Zalario wasn't the one doing it.
Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)
Can someone please translate these? 🙏 Bump 🙏
The second one completely throws plot out of the window.
One of the arguments is that Zalario should have to go outside the Otherworld and then destroy those dimensions, which was never stated. This however ignores the entire concept of "narrative convenience". I.E. the author need not explain or note every single effect that happened between the main effects of the actual plot. Another thing this ignores is that the very statement that Zalario destroyed dimensions means he went outside the Otherworld, rather than something we have to separately prove.
Another argument is that we don't have many other dimesnion destroying feats despite a shit ton of characters scaling above Zalario.
While this sounds solid at first, it again ignores the plot consistency that the main story is in the Cardinal world. And even the planet of the Cardinal world is harder to destroy than other worlds and dimensions as directly stated.
Zalario on the other hand didn't appear in the main plot until late and the dimesnion destroying feats he did were of normal dimensions, not the Cardinal world.
Hypertimeline
This isn't really a point of the OP or sandbox as it isn't aiming for tier 1, but it's mainly supporting evidence for some tier 2 feats.
The oppositiom argues that Rimuru was sent to a "distant future" and that "time didn't exist, it stopped flowing only".
The first one is practically just ignorance; they're negating the existence of a time beyond time (hyper time) by that exact Hyper time itself. It's like saying "hyper time doesn't exist because Hypertime is flowing here", with the only difference being that they think it's not hypertime as there's time supposedly beyond time.
That is, using supporting evidence as an anti feat itself; reverse logic in essence.
Second one; Time stops in either of the 2 cases:
This case is explicitly the later as Ciel basically explains how time stops flowing and space stops expanding BECAUSE the world has ended, and there's no other way around it other than overly biased interpretations that go to the lesser interpretation just for the sake of it.
- A character stops Time. The Universe still exists but time just stops flowing artificially.
- The Universe naturally ends and all Time has exhausted itself, thus it stops flowing as a by product.
Cardinal World is NOT just a planet
Focus on the key word first before coming to conclusions, not "just" a planet. Why?
Because the Cardinal world is a broad term. It can mean the planet, the main universe, or the World-Line as a whole.
The scan the opposition gives is for the prior, but he refuses to accept that the broad term "cardinal world" can have multiple meanings.
I mean, the same cardinal world was stated to have its own physical laws, it was shown to branch.
Do planets branch and have their own physical laws? Of course not!
Conclusions:
- There are all the MANY reasons to prove worlds are not planets, but that requires you to not take tensura as some battleboarding verse made for powerscaling and instead as an actual normal novel with consistent plot and a normal author.
- Dimensions contain worlds and worlds contain Universes.
- It was clear that Feldway DID destroy the Cardinal world's universe, and as a timeline at that.
- All "world" destroying feats unless specifically shown to be referring to planets (like; "he can destroy the planet") are 2-C.
- All evidence, if you actually take the context of the scans themselves, suggests that Zalario destroyed those dimensions, and literally at that. It only turns "0" when you ignore a thing called Plot and assume the author is some robot meant to describe every side effect of every side character's entire life.
Other than that, the opposition hasn't bring forth a decent argument that actually doesn't ignore context or unnecessary assumes the negative or lowest interpretation even when there's evidence to suggest otherwise, or take the very evidence against itself (arguing the existence of time beyond and before 4D Time suggests Hypertime doesn't exist)
@PHANtomFELdway told me that he discussed with @Antvasima and both came to the agreement that this (mine) post would be the last post of mine and @TheHyperGuy's back-and-forth arguments, and that we take a break (stop) from posting further until @EldemadeDityjon makes the post summarizing his side and interpretations.
So yeah, I won't be commenting further, and I suggest you (@TheHyperGuy) do the same. That is also so that our summaries don't get lost in any further to-and-fro discussion.
Gonna be busy from tomorrow again so this might be first and last reply. Kind of rushed (some wordings might be off) but I think I mentioned most of things. So if you want to address them go on or feel free to call the staffs.
Your first scan literally states nothing about the universe being a timeline. First of all, Rimuru was able to get back to the past, so the timeline did exist. Second of all, Ciel didn't know what really happened in that timeline because they existed at the end of spacetime. Feldway transported them out of the timeline. The only thing that ended was the universe (which should contextually mean Feldway's power was capable of destroying the observable universe, not the literal timeline. Even it was clarified the moment stars part).
The timeline is still intact. Rimuru going back to the past proves it. Not even once was it stated that the timeline got destroyed, erased, or even implied.
Author has used Universe kanji to describe just observable universe like here. I have explained that below.
The Otherworld being vaster than many universes refers to its size, not that it can contain many Low 2-C structures. It clearly talks about its being vaster than the observable universe, a 3-A structure, as for how the wiki treats the universe without timelines. To support this claim, you can read both paragraphs in your own scans. The first one talks about comparing the size and states that in a few thousand years they will conquer it. It simply refers to the distance they need to cover, which is very small compared to the Otherworld’s size. The next one talks about Swin traveling through the Otherworld, obviously about size again. It’s not like it has immeasurable speed—it’s traveling to different time periods at a speed near SOL. The whole point is that both instances where it was mentioned that the Otherworld is vaster than the universe are about comparing the observable universe’s size with the Otherworld (which Ivarage was sealed in).
That world should be special case too since it was used to seal Iverage same guy who can destroy Cardinal world planet which not many characters in the verse can do and stated to be eventually destroy the world.
Not to mention Vol 17 focused on Otherworld as in Cornu which is basically where Iverage sealed. So this size comparison is specifically talking about that world only even if you disagree and argue for every world it doesn't change the fact if you add multiple 3-A structures inside Low 2-C world wouldn't get to 2-C.
We were told that a dimensional wall separates the worlds from each other or Subspace. When both Rimuru and Velgrind were BFRed by Feldway, the place they ended up in was unfamiliar. It was described as a rift between other worlds or something similar, but it was never explicitly stated that they saw other worlds within it. So, I have come to the conclusion that the supposed rift refers to a place between Worlds and Subspace. It is simply a place that exists outside the normal timeline, where you can observe the universe reaching its end in the distant future. Basically that rift is talking about place where time and space came to an halt nothing more.
Supported by this Ciel was able to observe the universe reaching its end.
I'd like to point out that the place where Rimuru wakes up is still within the world where the flow of time stopped and space stopped expanding (atleast he couldn't feel it). Nothing implies or shows that time and space ceased to exist. The law of entropy just pushed the universe into a suspended death state, nothing else. Also, don’t use arguments like Yuki seeing the bubble burst as an example of universe destruction because they are different cases. There is no implication in the series that all universes should end in the same way. Each world has different laws, which you have already accepted. Heat death is most closely associated with Rimuru’s case, while false vacuum might be the most likely case for the universe Yuki saw.
Your arguments for Yuki existing in the same place as Velgrnd and Rimuru don’t make sense.
The author repeatedly states that it’s an interdimensional space between dimensions, which is also called subspace, multiple times—even at the last moment when they jumped into it and came back to the Cardinal World.
You claim Mai just thought that, but in truth, Yuki already asked Mai how she got here. Mai implied that her wish (with her skill) made it happen because she was thinking about Yuki. They used the same method to get back to the Cardinal World. It was not confirmed that Mai was actually swallowed up by the spacetime storm; it was not the storm that got her to Yuki. It was her skills and wish that made it possible. Also, Velgrnd never stated anything about a rainbow-colored sphere or worlds existing in the place where she was banished by Feldway; the same goes for Rimuru.『いや、ホントに、全然そういう感情とかないからね？』
マイはそう返事して、それ以上は口を噤む。
が、ユウキにとってはそれで十分だった。
勿論、マイのような恋愛脳ではなく、マイの権能をほぼ完璧に理解してのけたのである。
『うんうん、わかったって。それよりさ、君の権能がどう変わったのかわかったぜ』
『そう？ それならいいけど──って、え!?』
ユウキの塩対応に、それはそれで悲しいマイである。
しかも、ラプラスの視線が地味に痛い。
哀れな人を見るような目で、マイを見てくるのだ。
本当に違うのだと、大声で叫びたいマイであった。
勿論、ユウキの事は頼りになると思っているが、それは恋愛的な感情などではない。
だがしかし、ここまで完全にスルーされてしまうと、女としての誇りが傷つくのである。
しかし、それを口にするのも負けたような気になるし──などと思ったタイミングでの、ユウキの爆弾発言だった。
ユウキが考え込んでいたのは、体感にして数秒だ。
もっとも、ここでは時間という概念が歪んでいる為、実際にはどうだったのか不明である。
それはともかく──ユウキは確信を得るべく、最後の問いを発した。
『それで、マイは最後の瞬間、何を思い浮かべたんだい？』
それは、帰りたい場所だったのか？
それとも、会いたい人だったのか？
それが何であれ、マイの権能に影響を及ぼしたのは間違いないはず。
ユウキはそう考えていた。
これに、マイが答える。
『そ、それは──』
マイは思い出した。
最後に考えたのは、ユウキについてだった、と。
『ユウキ君が励ましてくれた事をさ、ちょっとだけ……』
もごもごと口ごもるように、マイが答える。
そういうんじゃないから！ と言い訳したいが、
言えば言うほど藪蛇になりそうだった。
『多分だけど、その権能を使えば、君が望んだ場所に行けるんだ』
『それって……』
『帰れるって事さ！』
ユウキは本物の天才だった。
マイから話を聞いただけで、『星界之王（テラ・マーテル）』の本質を見抜いたのだから。
その権能──『あらゆる時空を超えて、望む場所へと到達する能力』を、正しく推察してのけた。
これは本当に凄い事だった。
ただし、それが判明したとしても、エネルギー問題は解決していなかったのだ。
But when Rimuru used Time Leap, he jumped into subspace where the illustration shows other light spheres beside him,
andhe also comments on choosing the right world to jump into this time since the first time was a failure or mistake.
Also your own arguments and scans don’t add up. You make it seem like Yuki only saw one sphere, while the scan you posted states there are other rainbow spheres in the distance. Only one popped up nearby.
So I disagree with your arguments that Yuki was in the same place as Velgrnd and Rimuru when they were sent to the end of spacetime. No worlds were mentioned or shown in either case.
Let's start with Velgrnd's statement from Volume 17. It was mentioned that there is only one identical world and no parallel worlds, as in, parallel worlds do not exist. This translation is by Tayman. It should be noted that both Kanji for parallel are used here, indicating that no alternative realities exist side by side. There is only one world.
Same meaning can be found in Jisho並列世界 / 平行世界 - Jisho.org
It was established that Parallel world doesn't exist. The same Kanji is used here below. You can check the raws in the linked message.
This is further supported by the fact that alternate worlds (other dimensional worlds) do exist. It is simply explaining that there are no parallel universes to a single world, but other universes do exist. These are referred to as another world or other dimensional worlds.
What is World line?
@Vietthai96 take
Even wiki states the
@SeijiSetto take
As for "Worldline," its meaning can vary depending on the context. What I want to emphasize is that "worldline" is not referring to other timelines or parallel timelines. Velgrnd is simply confirming that this is not a parallel universe of the same world—nothing more. This does not prove the existence of parallel worlds. You can clearly see she was just talking about checking history; it’s simply tracing the object, nothing more.
Same Kanji used to represent parallel realities realities in Vol 11 which was debunked in this thread that Parallel Realities can't coexist. Got two approval. Though you can still contact Finepoint and ask his stance.
So just because they can't overlap doesn't means they exist. The whole point is two of same beings can't exist because there is only one identical world. Only exception so far is mask which is singularity. This doesn't prove existence of parallel universe.
The Velgrnd Amari being talked about has nothing to do with different timelines existing in the same dimension. It is referring to Velgrnd from Cardinal World’s future coming to this world’s past. It was even clarified in your own scan’s final statement that something might have happened in the future.
Tayman translation
This doesn't state anything about Worlds existing in the dimension. Rather another world and other dimension being interchangeable.
Now, I’m pretty sure you might bring up the statement about humanity being born in a parallel universe scan. But here are the raws: the kanji for "parallel" used here means "arranged in a line or connection." If you check the Seijo translation, it states "as if," meaning it’s just a comparison. It says, "as if connected to a parallel universe in a different dimension, humanity born". (Though universe is not stated there it was sekai) It’s not saying parallel worlds exist in other dimensions, nor that multiple worlds exist there. It’s simply a comparison to describe humanity’s birth. Same Kanji is used in Vol 23.
This scan also shows World and dimensions being used interchangeably. The explanation continues in a single logical chain. There is nothing new introduced in there.
This is supported by the fact that when Iverage was introduced, it was mentioned she might have come from the far reaches of the Universe or another dimension, which shows the author is using "universe" and "dimension" interchangeably.
So if what you really claimed to be true and there are multiple Worlds within same universe/dimension/World Iverage could have come from any one of those but above scan states something else. Also translation states another world here but it's actually Otherworld where Iverage was sealed.
You still have not explained what type of worlds spiritual life forms are crossing. Not only that, it also lacks context. All I see is Guy summoning Rain and Misery, and they couldn’t maintain their forms.
Basically put it in simple terms (just explaining in case someone has hard time keeping up with scans & explanation)
Rimuru was BFR’d to the end of spacetime — a place where the distant future converges and the world enters a suspended state. It is the gap between the World and Subspace, and no other worlds exist there. However, when Rimuru entered Subspace, we can see multiple worlds in the illustrations, and he even mentioned that he would choose the correct one.
Ciel did not know what happened in that timeline after Feldway BFR’d Rimuru. She simply guessed that Feldway’s powers might be limited to destroying the universe (which clearly refers to the observable universe, i.e., 3-A), for the reasons I mentioned. This is also supported by Rimuru traveling back to the past. Just because spacetime stopped flowing does not mean the timeline itself was destroyed. Neither Rimuru nor Ciel ever mentioned anything about the timeline being erased.
The statement about the Otherworld being vaster than the universe is specifically referring to Iverage’s sealed world. Since that is a special case, I don’t think it’s fair to use it as an argument for every other world. Even if we accept that interpretation, it still doesn’t mean the Otherworld would be 2-C. According to the wiki, an observable universe is only 3-A, and having a timeline would make it Low 2-C—nothing more. Even if something has a size larger than multiple universes (3-A scale), that alone would not upgrade a Low 2-C structure to 2-C.
Parallel worlds don’t exist at all—only other dimensional worlds exist, which might have similarities to the original world, but that’s it. Each of them operates under different laws. It was made clear in Volumes 11 and 17 that only one identical world exists. So no duplicates
Yuki was in Subspace and was able to observe multiple spheres, which also supports the idea that worlds and dimensions are essentially the same thing, since Subspace is the rift between dimensions. I have already explained why the OP’s interpretation is incorrect. Also, Mai was not transported there because of the spacetime storm; it was implied that it happened due to her own ability. So there is nothing that proves she was inside the dimensions.
So far, the Otherworld has only three worlds connected to it, and it is a special case—a world used specifically to seal Iverage. Nothing implies that all other worlds (as mentioned in Volumes 17, 21, 22, and 23) should be comparable to that in structure or scale.
The statement that Iverage came from either the corner of the universe or another dimension strongly supports the above claim. If multiple different worlds existed within the same dimension, then Iverage could have come from anywhere—it wouldn’t need to be only from a far corner of the universe.
Overall
- Universe = 3-A (Feldway destroying universe scan is flawed so staffs should check it rather than buying OP words for granted) Timeline was never destroyed. Rimuru literally goes back in time. Law of entropy is mentioned which doesn't necessarily mean timeline gets erased. It was more of Heath death of universe.
- Having bigger size than multiple Universes (3-A) ≠ 2-C
- World/Dimension = Low 2-C for containing a different time axis.
Done reading through the thread.
You're confusing the narrative here to an extent.
Not gonna talk about the thing about it being a special structure, bjt there at that time when it said "the Universe is vast, but not as much as the Otherworld", it CLEARLY meant as a space-timw continuum if you actually look just a line below:
Change "other worlds" to "Otherworld" as @MrTayman616 translated and you get the point. Universe here refers to as a space-time continuum, not "observable universe".
vsbattles.fandom.com
Uh, no. This is assuming that Worlds = Dimesnions which is heavily disproven by the Dimesnion section in the sandbox.
vsbattles.fandom.com
This is despite the fact that Mai is a spiritual lifeform, beings who by nature can cross worlds.
The Universe and Worlds are two different things. Ciel literally says Feldway destroyed the Universe but the World wasn't destroyed.
I won't be using Yuuki's example here just to show you how wrong you are. He is in the World-Gap, literally. Why?
It's also said that Chloe can't time travel cuz Time doesn't flow there, so obviously time doesn't exist. By the time Rimuru WOKE UP, everything had already ended.
So yeah;
And they also call it an incomprehensible place.
So why are you using statements during the scene of characters who don't even know where they are at? When they can't even understand the place they are in?
The explaination behind this scene is that Ciel often doesn't tell Rimuru some things and instead lies. Such as when she wanted to analyze Chrono Saltation.
But then, where do these storms lead to, you may ask? They transfer stuff from Subspace to an Other Dimensional Space (space inside another dimension but between the multiple worlds it contains). Inside those spaces, it could be further inside another world or at the end of a Universe, or before it's birth. Same place Velgrynd was in too.
And the illustration comes AFTER Rimuru had already dropped them off to the World Gap, so that background, in fact, referred to the world gap.
Which doesn't change pretty much anything as I already explained this in the sandbox.
vsbattles.fandom.com
Let's start with Velgrnd's statement from Volume 17. It was mentioned that there is only one identical world and no parallel worlds, as in, parallel worlds do not exist. This translation is by Tayman. It should be noted that both Kanji for parallel are used here, indicating that no alternative realities exist side by side. There is only one world.
Same meaning can be found in Jisho並列世界 / 平行世界 - Jisho.org
It was established that Parallel world doesn't exist. The same Kanji is used here below. You can check the raws in the linked message.
This is further supported by the fact that alternate worlds (other dimensional worlds) do exist. It is simply explaining that there are no parallel universes to a single world, but other universes do exist. These are referred to as another world or other dimensional worlds.
jisho.org
While 平行世界 (which Velgrynd doesn't deny and instead implied they exist) refers to paralell worlds that have some intersection point or are existing simultaneously/concurrently.
(For paralell worlds to not overlap, and for Velgrynd to make that statement, 平行 worlds (parallel worlds) have to exist.
Yet if the verse has a specific definition for a specific turn, we go by that instead of the more general one/wiki one.
And I didn't say World-line refers to another timeline or paralell worlds either. Rather, it refers to the collection/set of ALL of them, equivalent to the world that wasn't destroyed even after Rimuru was sent to beyond Time and space and the universe was destroyed.
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First off that thread isn't even accepted so don't treat it as a matter of fact. Second off, I already said in the OP that this thread has NOTHING TO DO WITH HINATA'S MWI.
Whereas "the past" refers to that of another timeline. Otherwise Fuse can just use the kanji for time Period, not timeline (時間軸).
Why does everyone like bringing up entirely different points yet never address the evidence shown in the sandbox itself? Like seriously. None of these theories or interchangable worlds hold meaning against actual, solid evidence of difference.
Are the 3 big examples nonexistent or something?(・～・)
Chloe's time travel requires traveling through flowing space-time (and to the same spatial coordinates) and cannot be done while time is stopped. However, it is quite possible that Rimuru is exempt from such restrictions and can travel freely by assuming x=a, y=b, z=c, and t(time)=d.
It doesn't matter which word is used: spacetime or universe (unless you're going to claim that Phantoms literally wander the space-time continuum). The context simply describes the wast (phsical space) of the otherworld and the universes (where Phantoms can exist). For 2-C to work, it would have to mention that the otherworld could contain universes. If that were the case, I'd agree, but it isn't.
But yes, in terms of answering Elde, this is another proof for Universe=Space-time Continuum (Low 2-C) or Phsical Space (3-A) is depending on the context. (I forgot to mention it).
This term is used by people looking at the universe from within the solar system/earth to refer to the observable universe. Yuuki is currently outside that world anyway.
@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @CrimsonStarFallen @Everything12 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist
Your help with evaluating this would still be appreciated.
Ant, can you please ping the following mods? They often come to tensura threads:@Elizhaa @Celestial_Pegasus @CrimsonStarFallen @Everything12 @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist
Your help with evaluating this would still be appreciated.
His choice:
DD, since you're active right now:
Ant, can you please ping the following mods? They often come to tensura threads:
@FinePoint @ActuallySpaceMan42
Thanks.
You can disagree with the Mod's conclusion and give ur reasoning to persuade them but at the end of the day, its on them to decide which side makes most sense. Regardless such questions better be asked in Question and Answer forum next time rather than here in Staff thread.
I would also like to add a bit to Reiner's answer, specifically for this thread and personally for you
Considering I see some issues with Astrals translation links he sent over, some are directly conflicting with Taymans Translation of the Zalario "destroying" statement (Datte's "Erased" vs Taymans "Destroy"). And @Dattebayo Seemingly not having official credibility, I understand Tayman also doesnt but Datte's credibility is only Being some translations were mostly correct by Seiji? (I'm still unclear as to why Datte's translations are being considered official enough to post here) That right there doesn't sit well, especially since Some interpretations could be supported or solidified using that translation and seemingly are off from other translations I've seen.
I am sorry, but are you actually reading @Astral_Trinity439, or are you intentionally ignoring the things that don't support your own arguments?
His tests passed Seji's test after being asked by Bambu.
I'd appreciate if you could humor my questions instead of passively aggressively responding to them, I asked for validity and Astral just said, "His translations were reviewed and accpeted." I was unaware that it was on purpose or to test, since I didn't look back in the thread just to see it.
How can you say this is enough context, only knowing that he signed off on a few translations? And never even stated anything about accepting Datte as a helper?
to be fair i was never asked anything like this, simply to look at a few of them
If a staff thinks their vote was written the wrong way, feel free to point out!
I personally think that Reiner seems to make sense here, but am not good at evaluating these types of threads unless I spend considerable amounts of time on doing so.
Like before, if a staff thinks their vote was written the wrong way, feel free to point out!
Only an attempt to persuade your opinion (once), a part of Eldemade's arguments are that Worlds = Dimesnions, but there is this:
And another part is based on the confusion between Beyond Time and End of Time, which is explained here:
