Bijuu Cloaks bulk up (Naruto CRT)

[Godernet]

It's been a while, y'all

So this one is pretty short, just an addition I would like to propose to KCM Naruto, KCM Minato, and potentially other Bijuu Cloaks.

Spoiler: Futon Rasenshuriken & Kyubi Chakra Mode

So do y'all remember how the Futon Rasenshuriken works mechanically? It was initially a melee ranged weapon that, when landed, explodes with a near-endless torrent of wind blades that are small enough to attack individual cells and even sever a human's Keirakukei, the various microscopic points in a Shinobi's body that allow chakra to flow throughout the body. Rasenshuriken was so potent that Naruto, while not even being the recipient of the attack, was sent to the hospital with half of the bones in his body broken due to the backlash of the jutsu. This led to Tsunade, the world's greatest medical ninjutsu specialist, finding lesser yet similar damage in Naruto's arm that, if continued, could have eventually permanently impaired his ability to use chakra, so Tsunade forbade Naruto from ever using the jutsu again to avoid the potential of Naruto losing all capacity to use ninjutsu.

Much later, Naruto slowly worked on the ability in secret, figuring out ways to implement it again.

Initially, he just started using it as a projectile to avoid being near the blast radius entirely, but by the time he gained his KCM Cloak, Naruto seemingly is both willing and able to use Rasenshuriken in close proximity with no issue.

This suggests that Naruto, when cloaked with Kurama's chakra, possesses the durability to handle the jutsu's backlash to the extent that the microscopic and endlessly firing wind blades no longer threaten to destroy his chakra network as a side effect of even being near the jutsu when it's used.

Spoiler: The other Bijuu Chakra Cloaks

There is also potential for the other Bijuu Chakra Cloak forms to benefit from this; after all, they're all identical compositionally, being the same tangible, malliable, almost gelatinous at times, nature that is unique to the Bijuu Chakra cloaks with KCM's main difference from Naruto's tailed forms being that Naruto separated Kurama's mind from the chakra to avoid Kurama infusing it with hatred and trying to take over his body, there's no in lore reason or mechanical reason why the durability of KCM would be more thorough than other Bijuu cloaked forms.

And while they all have some abilities unique to their chakra, those differences have only ever been in unique kekkai genkai or jutsu rather than a fundamental difference in their chakra (Outside of the toxic effects that Kurama's hatred has on his chakra, although that was an active power Kurama could feed into his chakra rather than a difference in composition and is completely removed from KCM which has these feats with Rasenshuriken)

Not to mention, they're all originally pieces of one source of power, being the Juubi.

A possibly/likely should suffice at least in my opinion for the other Bijuu forms (V2 Edo Jinchuuriki, One-Tailed Naruto, V2 Bee, etc.)

But I will let other staff and supporters chime in on the validity of that (Solid rating for other Bijuu cloaked forms or not at all)

Spoiler: Proposal

So, with this in Mind, I would be giving KCM Naruto...

Resistance to Limited Durability Negation (Energy Manipulation; Cellular - Due to the Bijuu chakra protecting him in Kyubi Chakra Mode, Naruto is once again capable of using Wind Style: Rasenshuriken at close range, a technique that fires an incalculable amount of wind blades at a cellular level in massive area of effect, a feat that previously broke half of the bones in his body and threatened to destroy his chakra network with the same damage the jutsu afflicts on its targets)

And for KCM Minato...

Resistance to Limited Durability Negation (Energy Manipulation; Cellular - Minato using Kyubi Chakra Mode, much like Naruto, should be protected from the microscopic effects of Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, a jutsu that attacks both its user and its target with an incalculable amount of wind blades at a cellular level in a massive area of effect)

And for other Bijuu Cloaks...

Possibly/Likely Resistance to Limited Durability Negation (Energy Manipulation; Cellular - While a different form, the chakra that comprises Bijuu Cloaks are compositionally formed of the same Bijuu chakra that initially formed the Juubi and should be capable of replicating KCM Naruto's level of protection against the effects of Wind Style: Rasenshuriken, a jutsu that attacks both its user and its target with an incalculable amount of wind blades at a cellular level in a massive area of effect)

As always, let me know what y'all think, and thank you in advance for participating!

Votes

Agree: DavidTTPM, Ghostimuscrime, LordTracer, Deceived3596, Nierre

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[DavidTPPM]

Also might be worth mentioning that Kurama (who still possesses organs, blood, etc, so it should have cells) is also capable of tanking the rasen shuriken.

So bijuu being somewhat resistant to the effects is pretty consistent.

 

[Godernet]

Also might be worth mentioning that Kurama (who still possesses organs, blood, etc, so it should have cells) is also capable of tanking the rasen shuriken.

So bijuu being somewhat resistant to the effects is pretty consistent.

He takes it inside Naruto’s mind which is why I didn’t really mention it (AP aside im not sure if a Rasenshuriken in Naruto’s mind would be effecting Mental realm Kurama at a cellular level the way a physical Rasenshuriken would be in the real world.)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Considering v2 bee (& edo jin by extension) are stated to have bijuu power in humanoid form (also accepted in profiles) I think this is fine

 

[LordTracer]

Looks good to me.

 

[Deceived3596]

It seems consistent. I agree with Naruto and Minato having it, and I am also fine with the others getting a likely or possibly rating as well, depending on which is accepted by staff.

 

[Nierre]

This is solid

 

[Kaydee1648]

a possibly resistance for other Bijuus makes sense

 

[Damage3245]

Naruto has regeneration with the Nine-Tails chakra; isn't it possible that with the Kurama Cloak he's not necessarily resistant to the cellular damage but able to regenerate from it?

 

[Godernet]

Naruto has regeneration with the Nine-Tails chakra; isn't it possible that with the Kurama Cloak he's not necessarily resistant to the cellular damage but able to regenerate from it?

I mean, he's always had regen, his base Jinchuuriki regen, which can heal scratches and small cuts, and his Kurama Influence regen, which is present even in KN0. It's never really been a thing that KCM has even better regen than his other Nine-Tails forms.

Plus, he was in the very same KN0 form against Kakazu, the same one that instantly healed from that massive hole Sasuke put in him with Chidori in Part 1.

Yet he still took backlash from Rasenshuriken and was hospitalized because of it.

Not to mention, Tsunade should be all too familiar with Naruto's high vitality and Jinchuuriki healing factor when she tells him he should never use that move again.

As she states to Kakashi and them, once a cell is cut off from the chakra network, even she can't heal the damage done, pm directly implying that if Naruto's cells were ever severed from their ability to receive help from the chakra network, there is no healing them at all, especially if the greatest medical ninja in the world can't.

Naruto himself wasn't even willing to risk it despite knowledge of his own healing factor until he could throw it, and eventually, when he got his cloaked form.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think the idea that naruto is constantly and passively regenning at blinding speeds every second he's using the jutsu is more assumptive than him being just physically capable of handling it

 

[Godernet]

It's assumptive but also kinda contradictory to a pretty consistent evolution of the Rasenshuriken.

Initially, intended to be a powerful melee attack like the Rasengan -> too dangerous to be used that way without potential sacrificing Naruto's entire use of ninjutsu -> Naruto learns to sustain it long enough to be thrown and only uses it this way from here on -> Naruto gets a cloaked form providing his body an extra layer of protection and all of a sudden goes back to using it in close or long range.

If the solution were always his Kurama regen, an ability he's always had and showed no signs of evolving past levels that the Rasenshuriken were already demonstrated to be far beyond (KN0), things he and Tsunade should be actively aware of, then the message behind its initial drawbacks is entirely pointless.

 

[Arkenis]

Shouldn't this also be applied to their bombs.

 

[Godernet]

Shouldn't this also be applied to their bombs.

Like their Bijuu Bombs attacking at a cellular level?

Probably not, only Wind Style Rasenshuriken has ever been stated to be capable of attacking at such a microscopic level.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Could Low-Mid regeneration even cover Rasenshuriken? Maybe if it was super-fast Low-Mid, but that would be an upgrade over Naruto's current regeneration wouldn't it?
I'm currently in support of the OP.

 

[R81handman]

I agree.

 

[Arkenis]

Like their Bijuu Bombs attacking at a cellular level?

Probably not, only Wind Style Rasenshuriken has ever been stated to be capable of attacking at such a microscopic level.

No, the bomb resisting it

 

[Damage3245]

No, the bomb resisting it

... What do you mean? The Biju Bomb doesn't have cells to be damaged anyway.

 

[Arkenis]

I've had this said so many times, does this mean cellular attacks aren't cellular when they destroy rocks? No, they're still cellular, they're just shredding the rock at a cellular level.

But if that argument can be used, how would the cloak get cellular dura neg resistance if its blocking the blades completely.

 

[Godernet]

No, the bomb resisting it

When did a Bijuudama resist the explosion of a Wind Style Rasenshuriken?

To my knowledge that’s never happened.

 

[Arkenis]

When did a Bijuudama resist the explosion of a Wind Style Rasenshuriken?

To my knowledge that’s never happened.

It's biju chakra. Is there something different about the biju cloaks ?

 

[Godernet]

It's biju chakra. Is there something different about the biju cloaks ?

Well due to change in chakra form, jutsu fundamentally change how chakra works structurally, changing everything from density, size, weight, power, composition into whatever the jutsu is.

I wouldn’t say a jutsu should be compared to its raw components shrouding a person like a second layer of skin, not to mention giving energy balls resistance to dura neg on a cellular level is a pretty redundant thing that I’m not even sure has ever been done.

Also the Jigen fight shows us with his shrinking ability that if small enough, an attack as small as a microscopic rod too small for the Sharingan to perceive (so probably smaller than a cell given what the Sharingan has been shown capable of perceiving) can ignore the energy wall provided by Naruto’s chakra cloak, so there is a limit to how thorough his cloak is and should be assumed to block out anything regardless of how small it is, much like the conventional durability of human skin being suseptible to things far smaller than the eye can see pores and crevices all over the human body.

 

[Arkenis]

Well due to change in chakra form, jutsu fundamentally change how chakra works structurally, changing everything from density, size, weight, power, composition into whatever the jutsu is.

I wouldn’t say a jutsu should be compared to its raw components shrouding a person like a second layer of skin, not to mention giving energy balls resistance to dura neg on a cellular level is a pretty redundant thing that I’m not even sure has ever been done.

The cloaks a jutsu? I'm a bit confused on the logic here. What is making the cloaks so fundamentally different you think the bombs don't align with it?

 

[Godernet]

The cloaks a jutsu? I'm a bit confused on the logic here. What is making the cloaks so fundamentally different you think the bombs don't align with it?

The cloak isn’t a jutsu, just a form. he’s wearing chakra outside of his body

My point is that jutsu fundamentally change the nature of the chakra it uses via transmuting the energy with chakra natures and change in chakra form, we even learn in the novels that these changes can go down to a molecular level

Unlike the gelatinous and malliable aura that uniquely comes with Bijuu cloaks, TBB is a compact balls of solid immensely dense chakra.

They’re incomparable not to mention one is an attack created as chakra transmutes into something entirely different and the other is aura.

There is 0 reason to assume a trait carried by Naruto’s chakra is present in any of the jutsu he uses unless he demonstrates that to be so (which I don’t think has ever happened)

For example, Chakra is innately adhesive, allowing Shinobi to use it to stick to things or walk on water, touch other elements, resist the pull of gravity manip, walk on any surface etc, but not every jutsu is adhesive because of the chakra it’s comprised of.

The properties of raw chakra are unique to the chakra itself, not everything that chakra is used for. Due to the processes Chakra under goes to become a jutsu.

And again, we don’t give things like resistance to dura neg to attacks.

 

[Arkenis]

The cloak isn’t a jutsu, just a form. he’s wearing chakra outside of his body

It is a jutsu. Same way the biju bombs are jutsus.

They’re incomparable not to mention one is an attack created as chakra transmutes into something entirely different and the other is aura.

What is the chakra being transmuted into?

There is 0 reason to assume a trait carried by Naruto’s chakra is present in any of the jutsu he uses unless he demonstrates that to be so (which I don’t think has ever happened)

Not saying that in any capacity. I'm specifically talking about the biju bomb alone.

 

[Godernet]

It is a jutsu. Same way the biju bombs are jutsus.

Even if that is the case jutsu aren’t all the same.

Ninjutsu can create anything from particles of light to large masses of solid rock. Things of different masses, weights, molecular make ups, and size is standard of ninjutsu.

Treating KCM like a jutsu makes it an even less of a reasonable assumption to say that TBB would share KCM’s, a literal chakra aura made to protect its user, thorough durability, just because both jutsu are being used via the same type of chakra.

What is the chakra being transmuted into?

A highly dense ball of solid chakra that can detonate into a bomb.

Meanwhile KCM is just a gelatinous chakra aura that hugs the skin.

Not saying that in any capacity. I'm specifically talking about the biju bomb alone.

respectfully, this add on feels kinda moot.

You’re basically saying that because Naruto’s chakra armor can withstand attacks that can reach a cellular level, that Naruto’s Bijuu Bombs should be able to do the same because they’re both made from the same source of chakra.

This ignores the fact that most jutsu wildly differ from each other in practically every conceivable way while utilizing the same pools of chakra.

This is why I’m not giving other variants of Rasenshuriken damage at a cellular level, because only the wind style variant has even been stated to behave that way and any more would require assumptions.

Similarly why even though the Bijuu cloaks are all functionally and compositionally exactly the same as KCM and coming from the exact same pool of chakra (the Juubi), we’re only giving non KCM Bijuu cloaks a possibly rating to this.

We have no reason to assume TBB are built as thoroughly as KCM is when one is literal armor and the other is a bomb made to be detonated.

 

[Arkenis]

This ignores the fact that most jutsu wildly differ from each other in practically every conceivable way while utilizing the same pools of chakra.

This point would matter if we were talking about two jutsus with different nature types or using nature energy and regular chakra but we're just talking about two jutsus using raw chakra.

You’re basically saying that because Naruto’s chakra armor can withstand attacks that can reach a cellular level, that Naruto’s Bijuu Bombs should be able to do the same because they’re both made from the same source of chakra.

Not basically, that's exactly what I'm saying because there's nothing explaining otherwise.

This is why I’m not giving other variants of Rasenshuriken damage at a cellular level, because only the wind style variant has even been stated to behave that way and any more would require assumptions.

They are all wind style with another release added on. What would the blades be if not the wind style? Narutopedia also lists wind release alongside lava release if its not obvious.

We have no reason to assume TBB are built as thoroughly as KCM is when one is literal armor and the other is a bomb made to be detonated.

First is just gelatinous chakra aura, now its literal armor. These are meaningless distinctions without explaining the substantive difference.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bijuubombs are moulded specifically through a unique process compressing black and white chakra in an 8:2 ratio explained in the databooks, it’s definitely not the same thing lol

 

[Godernet]

This point would matter if we were talking about two jutsus with different nature types or using nature energy and regular chakra but we're just talking about two jutsus using raw chakra.

Jutsu using raw chakra still differ from each other

Rasengan is a small, partially weightless ball of spinning energy

Tailed beast bombs are dense, seemingly heavy, and solid, not to mention they explode.

Despite the fact that they can both be formed with Bijuu chakra and are stated to be mechanically almost the same, save for the balancing of positive and negative chakra it’s made of.

Not basically, that's exactly what I'm saying because there's nothing explaining otherwise.

There doesn’t have to be another explanation that’s just not an assumption we make.

They are all wind style with another release added on. What would the blades be if not the wind style? Narutopedia also lists wind release alongside lava release if its not obvious.

The spinning torrent of wind blades that evicerates Kakazu at cellular level with Wind style Rasenshuriken isn’t present in any other version.

Lava style, super tailed beast Rasenshuriken, Bijuudama Rasenshuriken all just explode, if anything showing that adding one new element changes what the jutsu does.

First is just gelatinous chakra aura, now it’s literal armor. These are meaningless distinctions without explaining the substantive

What?

It’s both an armor and a fluid chakra aura, those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

If KCM is a jutsu like you said, why would a jutsu like Bijuu bomb that is pm just the outer shell of a giant nuclear bomb, have the same level of thorough refinement as a much smaller jutsu that shields its user constantly as long as it’s on?

Being of the same chakra is not a good reason, Biju chakra isn’t even naturally in that liquid-like state that Jinchuuriki use for auras, normally its that large volume of intangible energy that anyone else would have as chakra, that ability to transmute their chakra into that liquid-like shroud is a unique application of their chakra and not provably transferable to any other jutsu a Bijuu uses.

Both being raw chakra isn’t a good reason either since even non elemental jutsu can have wildly different densities and structure.

If two jutsu don’t have any reason to correlate, there is 0 reason to grant them each others properties.

Again, TBB and Rasengan are both just raw chakra and made from a similar mechanical process but the slightly differences in their forming greatly change what they both do.

 

[AyOgUyS]

agreed

 

[Arkenis]

Jutsu using raw chakra still differ from each other

Rasengan is a small, partially weightless ball of spinning energy

Tailed beast bombs are dense, seemingly heavy, and solid, not to mention they explode.

Despite the fact that they can both be formed with Bijuu chakra and are stated to be mechanically almost the same, save for the balancing of positive and negative chakra it’s made of.

The rasengan aren't partially weightless, the biju bombs are more condensed and weigh more that's all. Rasengans are dense, heavy and explode sometimes. Though I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to anything important as a distinction for why they'd be different fundamentally. You do know there's small biju bombs right?

There doesn’t have to be another explanation that’s just not an assumption we make.

You're making the assumption with pointless distinctions, I'm saying ones chakra and the others chakra and you're tryna argue meaningless distinctions with me.

The spinning torrent of wind blades that evicerates Kakazu at cellular level with Wind style Rasenshuriken isn’t present in any other version.

Lava style, super tailed beast Rasenshuriken, Bijuudama Rasenshuriken all just explode, if anything showing that adding one new element changes what the jutsu does.

The wind blades are within the rasenshurikens spinning blades too. Wdym not present, why would it disappear when he's just adding another release not switching it. Rasenshuriken explodes too, that's literally what it did on Kakuzu and Kaguya. Again, just a meaningless distinction and doesn't at all get to the point of Biju bombs and biju cloaks still just being chakra.

What?

It’s both an armor and a fluid chakra aura, those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

I didn't they were mutually exclusive, I said they're meaningless distinctions you're tryna use when there's no actual difference between the chakra that would explain why it isn't also resistant to the dura neg.

If KCM is a jutsu like you said, why would a jutsu like Bijuu bomb that is pm just the outer shell of a giant nuclear bomb, have the same level of thorough refinement as a much smaller jutsu that shields its user constantly as long as it’s on?

You have to prove the refinement is different enough to say they aren't the same chakra in essence. That's the whole point here, you can't keep bringing up random differences.

Being of the same chakra is not a good reason, Biju chakra isn’t even naturally in that liquid-like state that Jinchuuriki use for auras, normally its that large volume of intangible energy that anyone else would have as chakra, that ability to transmute their chakra into that liquid-like shroud is a unique application of their chakra and not provably transferable to any other jutsu a Bijuu uses.

"Liquid-state", are we just assuming this gives it the resistance to the dura neg? Please explain cuz there's no basis for what you're arguing.

Again, TBB and Rasengan are both just raw chakra and made from a similar mechanical process but the slightly differences in their forming greatly change what they both do.

These differences mean nothing in changing the chakras fundamental nature.

What's more important, idk why this isn't on page, but Sage Mode has a statement for it being resistant to the rasenshuriken due to making the body strong.

 

[MattaGrimm]

Agree

 

[Godernet]

The rasengan aren't partially weightless, the biju bombs are more condensed and weigh more that's all. Rasengans are dense, heavy and explode sometimes. Though I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to anything important as a distinction for why they'd be different fundamentally. You do know there's small biju bombs right?



You're making the assumption with pointless distinctions, I'm saying ones chakra and the others chakra and you're tryna argue meaningless distinctions with me.


The wind blades are within the rasenshurikens spinning blades too. Wdym not present, why would it disappear when he's just adding another release not switching it. Rasenshuriken explodes too, that's literally what it did on Kakuzu and Kaguya. Again, just a meaningless distinction and doesn't at all get to the point of Biju bombs and biju cloaks still just being chakra.


I didn't they were mutually exclusive, I said they're meaningless distinctions you're tryna use when there's no actual difference between the chakra that would explain why it isn't also resistant to the dura neg.


You have to prove the refinement is different enough to say they aren't the same chakra in essence. That's the whole point here, you can't keep bringing up random differences.


"Liquid-state", are we just assuming this gives it the resistance to the dura neg? Please explain cuz there's no basis for what you're arguing.


These differences mean nothing in changing the chakras fundamental nature.

What's more important, idk why this isn't on page, but Sage Mode has a statement for it being resistant to the rasenshuriken due to making the body strong.

If you feel strongly enough about this to make a thread on it later you can go ahead. I’m really not trying to hold up this thread on a adjacent topic unrelated to the OP.

But the burden of proof would still be on you to prove the outer shell of a Bijuu bomb is as thoroughly crafted as a chakra cloak when they’re two jutsu that share 0 similarities besides both being made of Bijuu chakra, which isn’t enough to make that claim since even jutsu that involve no change in chakra element can be vastly different from each other.

In a power system as varied from technique to technique as Naruto, equating jutsu that have no reason to be equated is not the default assumption.

I will say that Sage Mode part is something I forgot about, I’ll probably have its raws translated at some point to see if it does say SM grants a thorough enough body to handle Rasenshuriken. That would be a nice W for the form if true.

 

[Arkenis]

I will say that Sage Mode part is something I forgot about, I’ll probably have its raws translated at some point to see if it does say SM grants a thorough enough body to handle Rasenshuriken. That would be a nice W for the form if true.

I translated it, it says strengthened body basically.

致命的な欠点があったが、仙人モードを会得し、強靭な肉体を得ることでこれを完服。遠近両用で使える完璧な忍術となった。

Can be physical body or robust or powerful.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Looks good to me.

 

[Godernet]

What's more important, idk why this isn't on page, but Sage Mode has a statement for it being resistant to the rasenshuriken due to making the body strong.

I translated it, it says strengthened body basically.

致命的な欠点があったが、仙人モードを会得し、強靭な肉体を得ることでこれを完服。遠近両用で使える完璧な忍術となった。

Can be physical body or robust or powerful.

@Damage3245 @LordTracer @Nierre

Sorry to ping you back to this topic, but before we wrap up, how do you feel about this as proof that Sage Mode Naruto also has a body sturdy enough to withstand the cellular damage of Rasenshuriken? (Statements in question in the farthest paragraphs to the right)

 

[Nierre]

yeah that's fine with me

 

[LordTracer]

@Damage3245 @LordTracer @Nierre

Sorry to ping you back to this topic, but before we wrap up, how do you feel about this as proof that Sage Mode Naruto also has a body sturdy enough to withstand the cellular damage of Rasenshuriken? (Statements in question in the farthest paragraphs to the right)

That’s fine with me.

 

[Damage3245]

Seems okay.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me. Nice job, bro!