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"Minato becomes Country level and that's the most important thing you need to know (Naruto Bijuu tiers revision)" ~ Sparkle

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Thoughts on using these statements to scale Minato and/or Kushina's Rasengan to 18.34 teratons? It should definitely apply to Kushina considering the intent is for her to counter Bijuudamas with the Rasengan, and the argument exists for Minato scaling via him crafting the jutsu with the express purpose of fighting Bijuudamas.

And in case it gets brought up, Minato knows the power of the explosion, not just its spherical, unquantifiably above physicals state.

Also, given the whole Naruto, Bee, and Itachi each contributing one third to the CT's destruction thing, should Naruto's Rasenshuriken and Itachi's Susanoo scale to the Bijuudama?
I think it could be okay for the Minato part but it will require staff approval


As for the other one, CTs stated to require all of their strongest attacks and since it’s accepted on profiles i believe it should be fine to add in
 
Also, given the whole Naruto, Bee, and Itachi each contributing one third to the CT's destruction thing, should Naruto's Rasenshuriken and Itachi's Susanoo scale to the Bijuudama?

As for the other one, CTs stated to require all of their strongest attacks and since it’s accepted on profiles i believe it should be fine to add in

I don't think this would necessarily be the case.

We scale each of the character's attacks to 1/3rd of the Chibaku Tensei destruction as a matter of convenience because there is no way of truthfully knowing just how much each character is inputting to its destruction, i.e. whether the Biju Bomb is contributing the most, or if Itachi is putting in 40% of the energy, etc. So for the simplest solution we assume each character is contributing equally about a third of the energy required.

But that's not the same thing as proving that each character's attack is equally powerful, so that if for example Naruto's Rasenshuriken was scaled to be X value from another calc, that doesn't mean Killer B's Biju Bomb and Itachi's Susano'o attacks also be X value. They didn't clash and cancel each other out; they were just all aimed at the same target.

So the 1/3rd destruction each thing only applies to the specific scenario involving the Chibaku Tensei; not proving equal values in general.
 
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I believe we are done with updating everything, Sparkle told me off site that he is done updating all the characters in the sandbox and some outside of that, I updated the verse page, 4GNW Naruto, Juubi and Obito, I intentionally left out Naruto's BOTTJ key since I plan on doing it during top tier revisions


Aside that I think we should be good to go for closing
 
I mean Naruto FRS did hurt Kurama beforehand but to scale to a bijuudama? idk bout that one

I mean we KCM Naruto FRS was able to knock out the Edo 3rd Raikage who can hurt Gyuki so there’s a possibility that it could
 
I don't think this would necessarily be the case.

We scale each of the character's attacks to 1/3rd of the Chibaku Tensei destruction as a matter of convenience because there is no way of truthfully knowing just how much each character is inputting to its destruction, i.e. whether the Biju Bomb is contributing the most, or if Itachi is putting in 40% of the energy, etc. So for the simplest solution we assume each character is contributing equally about a third of the energy required.

But that's not the same thing as proving that each character's attack is equally powerful, so that if for example Naruto's Rasenshuriken was scaled to be X value from another calc, that doesn't mean Killer B's Biju Bomb and Itachi's Susano'o attacks also be X value. They didn't clash and cancel each other out; they were just all aimed at the same target.

So the 1/3rd destruction each thing only applies to the specific scenario involving the Chibaku Tensei; not proving equal values in general.
I think this is fair enough, though we should probably get more staff input on it as it's been an accepted scaling for years.

Any thoughts on the Rasengan stuff?
I believe we are done with updating everything, Sparkle told me off site that he is done updating all the characters in the sandbox and some outside of that, I updated the verse page, 4GNW Naruto, Juubi and Obito, I intentionally left out Naruto's BOTTJ key since I plan on doing it during top tier revisions


Aside that I think we should be good to go for closing
And these last few issues 😤
 
I agree with Damage on the CT portion.

As for the Rasengan thing, as I've said off-site, I probably disagree with Minato scaling to it for now.

There's too much vagueness in how Minato intended for it to be used when perfected that we never got to see, we know initially, he only says he specifically made it for Kushina to use against other Bijuu and Jinchuuriki to coincide with her large volume of chakra (implying she probably can't use Bijuudama without losing control for one, likely bc Kurama would try taking over her body if she used anywhere near the amount of his chakra needed to use a Bijuudama, similar to Naruto), and that Kushina's usage of it would be closer to how Naruto can fuel a Rasengan to create Giant or Massive Rasengans, rather than her running with a normal rasengan at a charged Bijuudama.

You can argue that Minato would want to learn how to fight a Bijuu himself to be able to stand next to Kushina and help her in a crisis.

But, we know what we saw in the oneshot wasn't the jutsu perfected; he kept working on the jutsu far beyond this chapter, even intending for the perfected Rasengan to implement a change of chakra nature, making it an S-Rank Jutsu like the Bijuudama, yet he was never able to do so. There could have even been an intent for him to optimize his Senjutsu along with the Rasengan to use against Bijuu, but we don't know the ins and outs of his experience with Senjutsu either, outside of the fact that he can use it and felt he wasn't good enough at it, at least before he died.

Do we even know if he got around to teaching it to Kushina before she was used for war?

An intent to do something shouldn't automatically mean they were successful. Plus, there are so many unknowns that I'd rather not use it for Minato or Kushina tbh,

Damage or anybody else participating may have different things to say tho.
 
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Is Minato's AP now higher than Hashirama's? Wow, it reminds me of the Minato vs Hashirama debates from the early 2020s... Of course, I know this isn't raw AP.
 
I agree with Damage on the CT portion.

As for the Rasengan thing, as I've said off-site, I probably disagree with Minato scaling to it for now.

There's too much vagueness in how Minato intended for it to be used when perfected that we never got to see, we know initially, he only says he specifically made it for Kushina to use against other Bijuu and Jinchuuriki to coincide with her large volume of chakra (implying she probably can't use Bijuudama without losing control for one, likely bc Kurama would try taking over her body if she used anywhere near the amount of his chakra needed to use a Bijuudama, similar to Naruto), and that Kushina's usage of it would be closer to how Naruto can fuel a Rasengan to create Giant or Massive Rasengans, rather than her running with a normal rasengan at a charged Bijuudama.
Even if this were the case, I'm not sure I see the problem? It can be described in her profile that it's possible her Rasengan is only Bijuudama level when she's tapping into Kurama's chakra, but that wouldn't change that she has a Bijuudama level jutsu in her arsenal that she can use freely.
You can argue that Minato would want to learn how to fight a Bijuu himself to be able to stand next to Kushina and help her in a crisis.

But, we know what we saw in the oneshot wasn't the jutsu perfected; he kept working on the jutsu far beyond this chapter, even intending for the perfected Rasengan to implement a change of chakra nature, making it an S-Rank Jutsu like the Bijuudama, yet he was never able to do so.
This is an entirely different thing though. The Rasengan itself is a jutsu to fight Bijuudamas, this hypothetical nature infused Rasengan+ is just something to make it even stronger.
There could have even been an intent for him to optimize his Senjutsu along with the Rasengan to use against Bijuu, but we don't know the ins and outs of his experience with Senjutsu either, outside of the fact that he can use it and felt he wasn't good enough at it, at least before he died.
This feels like unnecessarily adding a variable. Nowhere is senjutsu mentioned even in passing in the chapter, and we don't know if he'd even started training for Sage Mode at this point; he was about 16 or 17 at this point, with him not having a mastered Sage Mode even at 24.
Do we even know if he got around to teaching it to Kushina before she was used for war?
This is why Kushina's current Rasengan rating is a likely.
An intent to do something shouldn't automatically mean they were successful.
Let's put it like this, Minato's goal for this story was to create a jutsu strong enough to counter Bijuudamas, something set up from the very beginning of the chapter, and the chapter's climax is him using his Rasengan to counter a Bijuudama, with supplementary material indicating that it was a victory rather than a tie/loss. Even though you can argue against the scaling ramifications of this fight against Kurama in a myriad of ways, I think the author intent of his creation being a success, and this "proving" it is pretty clear.

Plus, thinking about it from a more indirect lens, Minato physically scales above Bijuu, and the Rasengan is far above the user's physicals, sometimes even being portrayed as one shotting people on/above their level (obviously being supplemented by its consistent parity to the Chidori which almost always pierces through opponents). Minato's Rasengan might be even stronger than the basic variant given that he kneads chakra in opposite directions for his Rasengan, which is part of the Rasengan Barrage's increased strength.

Bijuudama are also significantly stronger than the user, but not to the point of one shotting; the whole basis of this revision is Bijuu downscaling from their Bijuudama after all. It just makes sense, both from a narrative and scaling lens, for Minato's Rasengan to be at least Bijuudama level.
Plus, there are so many unknowns that I'd rather not use it for Minato or Kushina tbh,
What are your thoughts on possibly 18.34 teratons?
 
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Even if this were the case, I'm not sure I see the problem? It can be described in her profile that it's possible her Rasengan is only Bijuudama level when she's tapping into Kurama's chakra, but that wouldn't change that she has a Bijuudama level jutsu in her arsenal that she can use freely.
So it's a jutsu that we can only assume she might have learned offscreen that she also might be able to use push to Bijuu levels with what we would presume is a better chakra control than Naruto, who needed clones to be able to use Rasengan at all, let alone its greater variants for a good chunk of the series.

It feels a bit charitable to me, especially since Kurama should be actively hindering her ability to use chakra like Naruto.

This is an entirely different thing though. The Rasengan itself is a jutsu to fight Bijuudamas, this hypothetical nature infused Rasengan+ is just something to make it even stronger.
From what we were told, the perfected Rasengan was to incorporate change in chakra nature and Minato had always intended that to be the case, which is why Rasengan was considered an "incomplete jutsu."
This feels like unnecessarily adding a variable. Nowhere is senjutsu mentioned even in passing in the chapter, and we don't know if he'd even started training for Sage Mode at this point; he was about 16 or 17 at this point, with him not having a mastered Sage Mode even at 24.
Nowhere in the chapter is it mentioned that Minato intended to fight Bijuu with it either. Yet the argument is that you can imply it due to his care for Kushina and other external factors.

My point that the topic is more nuanced and vague than what can be argued with just "the narrative makes it seem like Minato was gonna use normal rasengans stop Bijuudama"
This is why Kushina's current Rasengan rating is a likely.
should be a possibly tbh.
Let's put it like this, Minato's goal for this story was to create a jutsu strong enough to counter Bijuudamas,
*for Kushina.
something set up from the very beginning of the chapter, and the chapter's climax is him using his Rasengan to counter a Bijuudama,
Probably mentally amped, Minato is clashing with the outershell of a still being-formed TBB, by a sealed and chained Kurama is not the same thing.

Let's not act like the narrative takeaway is "Minato's Rasengan = Bijuudama" and not "Minato cares for her so much that he would fight insurmountable odds for her, visually represented in a jutsu that literally symbolizes his devotion to her, pushing back against the source of all of the worst parts of her life.
with supplementary material indicating that it was a victory rather than a tie/loss. Even though you can argue against the scaling ramifications of this fight against Kurama in a myriad of ways, I think the author intent of his creation being a success, and this "proving" it is pretty clear.
Minato saved Kushina from Kurama, which is infinitely more important to Minato than any contest of power.

If the battle was for Kushina, then ofc Minato won in that instance. This whole oneshot was quite literally a showcase of Minato's love for Kushina, rather than with a typical battle shounen "winner is the stronger one" mindset.
Plus, thinking about it from a more indirect lens, Minato physically scales above Bijuu,
huh? They all scale to the same value.
and the Rasengan is far above the user's physicals, sometimes even being portrayed as one shotting people on/above their level (obviously being supplemented by its consistent parity to the Chidori which almost always pierces through opponents).
Let's not do that..
  • Asura Path is not Sage Mode Naruto level or above
  • Deva Path has just exhausted itself trying to seal KN6 and has been fighting the entire village. "oneshotting him" is more than a stretch.
  • Naruto and Sasuke have been fighting an entire war and were on their last legs of chakra after fighting each other for more than 12 hours, calling that a one-shot is insane.
  • Kabuto is a bum.

If Naruto in any of those cases could manifest a Bijuu bomb, let's not act like the damage would be less than a normal Rasengan.
Bijuudama are also significantly stronger than the user, but not to the point of one shotting; the whole basis of this revision is Bijuu downscaling from their Bijuudama after all. It just makes sense, both from a narrative and scaling lens, for Minato's Rasengan to be at least Bijuudama level.
The basis of the downscale isn't that Bijuu can tank the entire yield of their standard Bijuu bombs; otherwise, we would just be scaling them directly to Bijuu bombs.

The point of the downscale in the first place is that Bijuudama have a wide surface area, and they can take a portion of the yield and survive, as we saw with Gyuki, and calculating that portion would be calcstacking, so we downscale instead.
What are your thoughts on possibly 18.34 teratons?
I still don't agree at all tbh.

TBH, I think a more likely way to use the argument is to make Naruto's Futon Rasenshuriken Bijuudama level, considering it actualizes Minato's intent of a perfected Rasengan, which he believed Kushina would one day be able to use against Bijuu and Jinchuuriki.
 
So it's a jutsu that we can only assume she might have learned offscreen
Because that was the point yes
that she also might be able to use push to Bijuu levels with what we would presume is a better chakra control than Naruto, who needed clones to be able to use Rasengan at all, let alone its greater variants for a good chunk of the series.
I'm not making any personal assumptions about her ability, it's about the statements in favor of her being able to produce a Bijuudama level Rasengan
It feels a bit charitable to me, especially since Kurama should be actively hindering her ability to use chakra like Naruto.
This is irrelevant
From what we were told, the perfected Rasengan was to incorporate change in chakra nature and Minato had always intended that to be the case, which is why Rasengan was considered an "incomplete jutsu."
That's a good statement in your favor, but it's still not really enough given that it doesn't change my fundamental point; the Rasengan itself is a jutsu to counter the Bijuudama, the enhanced Rasengan is a stronger jutsu. Minato's ideal Rasengan>Minato/Kushina's Rasengan~/>Standard Bijuudama
Nowhere in the chapter is it mentioned that Minato intended to fight Bijuu with it either. Yet the argument is that you can imply it due to his care for Kushina and other external factors.

My point that the topic is more nuanced and vague than what can be argued with just "the narrative makes it seem like Minato was gonna use normal rasengans stop Bijuudama"
That is a much more direct reading than Minato apparently intending to fight Bijuu with a Sage Mode that's irrelevant to the story and that he likely didn't even have.
should be a possibly tbh.
Kinda besides the point, but I don't necessarily disagree
*for Kushina.
I'm aware
Probably mentally amped, Minato is clashing with the outershell of a still being-formed TBB, by a sealed and chained Kurama is not the same thing.

Let's not act like the narrative takeaway is "Minato's Rasengan = Bijuudama" and not "Minato cares for her so much that he would fight insurmountable odds for her, visually represented in a jutsu that literally symbolizes his devotion to her, pushing back against the source of all of the worst parts of her life.

Minato saved Kushina from Kurama, which is infinitely more important to Minato than any contest of power.

If the battle was for Kushina, then ofc Minato won in that instance. This whole oneshot was quite literally a showcase of Minato's love for Kushina, rather than with a typical battle shounen "winner is the stronger one" mindset.
These are all covered under my note:
Even though you can argue against the scaling ramifications of this fight against Kurama in a myriad of ways, I think the author intent of his creation being a success, and this "proving" it is pretty clear.
And besides, him proving himself in a physical contest and demonstrating his love for Kushina are in no way mutually exclusive.
huh? They all scale to the same value.
I'm talking about in terms of inverse scaling, as Minato~/>V2 Ay>V1 Ay~KCM Naruto>PA SM Naruto>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya = Bijuu level
Let's not do that..
  • Asura Path is not Sage Mode Naruto level or above
They should be in the same tier given lesser Paths scaling to SM Jiraiya, who's currently scaling to SM Naruto, if not physically above (that's without mentioning the Asura Path ripping off SM Jiraiya's arm, though it being somewhat offguard does make it an ambiguous feat).
  • Deva Path has just exhausted itself trying to seal KN6 and has been fighting the entire village. "oneshotting him" is more than a stretch.
I certainly wouldn't use this feat to say Base Naruto's Rasengan can one shot FP Deva Path, but even this exhausted Deva Path scales to Base Naruto and can withstand a kick from SM Naruto.
  • Naruto and Sasuke have been fighting an entire war and were on their last legs of chakra after fighting each other for more than 12 hours, calling that a one-shot is insane.
Same point as above. Fatigued Naruto's Rasengan isn't one shotting FP Base Naruto, but it's not as if he has some sort of condition that's specifically nerfing only his physicals; his chakra in general is low, weakening both his physicals and Rasengan.
  • Kabuto is a bum.
Not a counterpoint.

Also, this is all without mentioning more absurd cases like Konohamaru's Rasengan scaling literal hundreds of millions of times above his physicals.
If Naruto in any of those cases could manifest a Bijuu bomb, let's not act like the damage would be less than a normal Rasengan.
Wouldn't necessarily, I'm just saying the Bijuudama is definitely not that much stronger than the Rasengan if at all, at least in its standard state (a charged Bijuudama is far stronger).
The basis of the downscale isn't that Bijuu can tank the entire yield of their standard Bijuu bombs; otherwise, we would just be scaling them directly to Bijuu bombs.

The point of the downscale in the first place is that Bijuudama have a wide surface area, and they can take a portion of the yield and survive, as we saw with Gyuki, and calculating that portion would be calcstacking, so we downscale instead.
I didn't say they can tank the entire yield, but even just taking a significant portion is fine for the scaling supporting point.
I still don't agree at all tbh.
A possibly rating is used just for cases like this. There is absolutely "some basis," even if it's vague/non-definitive (the extent of these issues being exaggerated in this case, but I digress).
TBH, I think a more likely way to use the argument is to make Naruto's Futon Rasenshuriken Bijuudama level, considering it actualizes Minato's intent of a perfected Rasengan, which he believed Kushina would one day be able to use against Bijuu and Jinchuuriki.
Idt this really works for AS Naruto given that the power of the jutsu does depend of the power of the user's chakra, and Minato obviously isn't taking his unborn son's power into account with the jutsu's creation. I could see the case for KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken though, since he's approaching Minato's level and has supporting evidence like the Chibaku Tensei parity and damaging the 3rd Raikage.
 
Getting flashbacks to bible wars with Slayer
CDN media
 
Would you mind giving input on this?
Thoughts on using these statements to scale Minato and/or Kushina's Rasengan to 18.34 teratons? It should definitely apply to Kushina considering the intent is for her to counter Bijuudamas with the Rasengan, and the argument exists for Minato scaling via him crafting the jutsu with the express purpose of fighting Bijuudamas.

And in case it gets brought up, Minato knows the power of the explosion, not just its spherical, unquantifiably above physicals state.
Currently my proposal is for them to get a possibly rating after the discussion with Godernet
 
The OP proposals seems to have been accepted and applied
is there any reason this is still open?
 
The OP proposals seems to have been accepted and applied
is there any reason this is still open?
To see if Nierre and DarkDragonMedeus have any input on my final proposal, but if they don't have anything to say in the next day or two this can be closed
 
gonna be honest sparkle, i don't think the other two are likely to agree, I kinda also lean towards what Net said

anyways new calc thread out trmw (hopefully?), this has been applied so we should just close
 
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