Snyderman Speed revision

[sageof8paths]

Spoiler: Intro

purposes of the thread is to establish the speed feats and statements of the dceu to establish why superman would inherently need to be FTL at the bare minimum and why it doesn’t contradict the narrative. Please stick around to see the common rebuttal section to see why it doesn’t break the narrative

Spoiler: Arguement and Calc

The crux of this argument is that with the various feats and statements pertaining to speed revealed over the course of the verse, Superman (only during the events of zsjl) logically and Mathematically has to be FTL via accepted levels of calc stacking.

To come to this conclusion, we have to first establish the speed of of the characters superman would be up scaling from, in a way that can be calc stacked

It is stated not once, not twice, not thrice, but 4 times that Superman or Zod are as fast as lightning. This is a ridiculous lowball for obvious reasons like the numerous Sub-rel to Relativistic+ feats like:

1. Superman flying across the planet in seconds (Sub-Relativistic)
2. Superman and Zod flying to space (MHS)
3. Wonder woman reacting to lightning (MHS)
4. cyborg reacting and wonder woman heat vision 3 times (Sub rel-Relativistic+)

These are just the calced feats btw, we have way more such: as superman carrying doomsday into space within seconds, Uxas reacting to lightning, 2 statements implying the cast are nanosecond timers, etc, further solidifying lightning speed as a fair lowball.

As already accepted by the wiki, Wonder woman tiers are faster than man of steel tiers due to them scaling to a doomsday who has zod’s physical capabilities “expanded to the extreme”, and scaling to a superman who has grown more powerful since the events of man of steel,


As we see in Zsjl, when Barry approaches superman on his first attempt in flash-time, the justice league are completely frozen, with no sign of movement at all despite all their speed feats. The flash started his run mid action when they were 3v1 versus superman, and going all out, yet their completely statued, and only move when superman throws them away, and once the KE of the throw reduces, they’re statued once again, with no concept of reaction or instinctive movement to what’s going on at all, and while they’re frozen, superman is still able to make fast movements as the calc below will prove.


Since we have already found an accepted speed can be legally calc stacked according to site rules, we can begin to find out how fast superman is moving in flash time in relation to the JL

the calc:

Superman jumps slightlt fast

vsbattles.fandom.com

To make matters worse, It was stated by snyder that superman was even more powerful in the final fight due to him using the black suit to sunbathe meaning he would still upscale from this feat.

Spoiler: Common Rebuttals

The common rebuttals to this argument would follow as “Superman can’t be going ftl here because the flash canonically isn’t going ftl here, therefore it’s an outlier because it breaks the narrative”, however if we examine all facets of the narrative we find out that this conclusion is likely not the case.

We first have to understand how Barry’s speed is fundamentally different from everyone else’s, as well as the full extent of his powers.

It must firstly be established that Barry gets his power from the speed force which he describes as a “dimensional layer of reality that manipulates space-time”.

This illustrates how Barry’s time manipulation is due to the speed forces ability to manipulate space-time and NOT just the raw speed of going ftl; nothing suggests that time travel is possible with just raw linear speed in the dceu without the speed force, even if you go ftl, as it’s through space-time manipulation.

We see that Barry’s Time manipulation doesn’t start at him going FTL but rather going relative to the speed of light as he says “When i approach the speed of light weird things start happening to time”. This is clearly referencing the theory of relativity, on how time slows down

when approaching the speed of light. This means when Barry is going at relativistic speeds he slows down time via time manipulation granted by the speed force.

Why is this relevant? Because we know that superman does not possess any time manipulation powers regardless of speed so even though a suppressed flash might appear >≈ than him in flash time, it can be asserted that this is due to Barry + speed slowing down time while Superman is just using raw speed.

A good visual representation of what i’m saying is in the final act, moments before Barry reverses time, we see the unity slowdown/stop before it eventually starts reversing, despite Barry not appearing to be moving much faster highlighting the time manipulation aspects of his powers.

the JL and co would have to be like Hypersonic+ or smth for them to be this slow for Barry with to statue them with raw movement alone, and we obviously know why that’s not the case from the numerous statements and feats in the verse.

This is the best explanation as to why the JL all have feats approaching the speed of light yet they’re all frozen like a statue, despite Barry canonically not going Ftl, it’s because he’s also slowing down time, especially because we know that Superman still gets faster in the final battle, therefore,

Superman being Ftl is not an outlier as the narrative asserts that the flash can slow down time, giving him an even greater speed advantage in addition to raw speed, which would make FTL things appear slower in comparison to him.

Spoiler: Conclusion

In conclusion: Superman should be FTL because he statues characters that are consistently stated to be lightning speed at the bare minimum, and highkey far surpass that casually, and this shouldn’t be an outlier as the flash can slow down time in relation to him so he doesn’t need to be going FTL to be on par with superman. The feat should lowkey even be accepted without the calc just due to how close WW tiers are to Lightspeed in general but the calc just solidifies it. This also builds consistency with The Rock stating 4 times that Black Adam was FTL but still admitted inferiority to superman.

 

[ByArrow]

2 statements implying the cast are nanosecond timers,

Nanosecond statments are valid at relativistic speeds.

the calc:

Superman jumps slightlt fast

vsbattles.fandom.com

Before using this calculation, you need to wait for the calculation to be evaluated and approved.

This illustrates how Barry’s time manipulation is due to the speed forces ability to manipulate space-time and NOT just the raw speed of going ftl; nothing suggests that time travel is possible with just raw linear speed in the dceu without the speed force, even if you go ftl, as it’s through space-time manipulation.

That doesn't change anything. Barry needs to beyond the speed of light to travel through time. This was said while Bruce and Barry were talking, and it was also said by Barry in the JL movie.

We see that Barry’s Time manipulation doesn’t start at him going FTL but rather going relative to the speed of light as he says “When i approach the speed of light weird things start happening to time”. This is clearly referencing the theory of relativity, on how time slows down

If you're saying this refers to the theory of relativity, you can't say it's done through time manipulation because in the theory of relativity, the reason this happens is speed not time manipulation.

when approaching the speed of light. This means when Barry is going at relativistic speeds he slows down time via time manipulation granted by the speed force.

No. It means that time slows down relative to him because of the speed he is traveling at, not that he slows down time via time manipulation.

Why is this relevant? Because we know that superman does not possess any time manipulation powers regardless of speed so even though a suppressed flash might appear >≈ than him in flash time, it can be asserted that this is due to Barry + speed slowing down time while Superman is just using raw speed.

As I said, Barry isn't slowing down time; because of his speed, time slows down relative to him. Here, Flash appear to be as fast as Superman or slightly faster because that's how it is. And also, canonically, Barry set himself the rule not to exceed the speed of light. So Flash isn't faster than the speed of light here. And therefore neither is Superman.

A good visual representation of what i’m saying is in the final act, moments before Barry reverses time, we see the unity slowdown/stop before it eventually starts reversing, despite Barry not appearing to be moving much faster highlighting the time manipulation aspects of his powers.

He said that in this scene, he had to beyond the speed of light.

And it doesn't matter how fast Barry appears to be here because we're seeing slow-motion footage of Barry's speed. Barry starts running, time slows down when he starts running, time stops when he reaches the speed of light, and time starts flowing backwards when he beyonds the speed of light.

Even if the calculation is approved, It contradicts the canon and is a outlier for the reasons I mentioned.

I disagree

 

[sageof8paths]

Nanosecond statments are valid at relativistic speeds.

if u actually understood the arguments you would understand that superman is statuing the relativistic characters.

Before using this calculation, you need to wait for the calculation to be evaluated and approved.

i’m aware

That doesn't change anything. Barry needs to beyond the speed of light to travel through time. This was said while Bruce and Barry were talking, and it was also said by Barry in the JL movie.

Massive Strawman here, there’s obviously a correlation to his speed but the fact of the matter is it’s the speed force that brings in time manipulation hence why other characters have no mention of such despite approaching the speed of light.

If you're saying this refers to the theory of relativity, you can't say it's done through time manipulation because in the theory of relativity, the reason this happens is speed not time manipulation.

1. Referencing does not mean follow 1:1, which is clearly obvious because
2. Barry is obviously not generating an infinite amount of energy when he reverses time. it’s the speedforce that allows him to do so without infinite energy hence why it’s a form of time manipulation. You seem to have mostly misunderstood the arguments in its entirety

No. It means that time slows down relative to him because of the speed he is traveling at, not that he slows down time via time manipulation.

You’re arguing for meaningless semantics as the point still stands, superman cannot benefit from time slowing down in relation to him.

As I said, Barry isn't slowing down time; because of his speed, time slows down relative to him.

Semantics

Here, Flash appear to be as fast as Superman or slightly faster because that's how it is.

No logical rebuttal to any of my actual arguments to anything i’m saying this statement is void and meaningless.

And also, canonically, Barry set himself the rule not to exceed the speed of light. So Flash isn't faster than the speed of light here. And therefore neither is Superman.

genuinely did u even read the arguments at all?
i’m not saying he’s moving at ftl speeds against superman saying everything else is slowed down in comparison to him, INCLUDING ftl superman.

He said that in this scene, he had to beyond the speed of light.

i’m aware and im not arguing against that.

And it doesn't matter how fast Barry appears to be here because we're seeing slow-motion footage of Barry's speed. Barry starts running, time slows down when he starts running, time stops when he reaches the speed of light, and time starts flowing backwards when he beyonds the speed of light.

Even if the calculation is approved, It contradicts the canon and is a outlier for the reasons I mentioned.

I disagree

you’ve effectively strawmanned and poked holes at semantics at everything i said. If u actually care about this unbiasedly you’d re-read the arguments to see what im actually saying. For u to disprove my arguments, you would have to prove that superman also benefits from relativity, like barry does, which u definitively can’t because he does not

 

[AyOgUyS]

agree for now

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not knowledgeable on this at all nor do I care about the verse, but the lightning statements are just straight up unusable.

"lightning reflexes" is a common figure of speech which can't really even be interpreted as him being a lightning timer with this wording.
Lightning speed is also just a common figure of speech that just means a character is fast.
Hell the statements are relatively sketchy because they brag about accelerating beyond the speed of sound and creating a sonic boom. So it seems pretty clear the use of the word lightning is just a figure of speech and isn't meant to mean he's as fast as lightning.

Also dodging a car "with only a nanosecond to spare" doesn't imply he's a nano-second timer but rather highlights how close the dodge was.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

If anything, you should just use a nanosecond timeframe for Superman's jump, let's assume 5:

3.168 meters / 5e-9 seconds = 2.11 c

 

[Ozcantabak]

I'm not knowledgeable on this at all nor do I care about the verse, but the lightning statements are just straight up unusable.

"lightning reflexes" is a common figure of speech which can't really even be interpreted as him being a lightning timer with this wording.
Lightning speed is also just a common figure of speech that just means a character is fast.
Hell the statements are relatively sketchy because they brag about accelerating beyond the speed of sound and creating a sonic boom. So it seems pretty clear the use of the word lightning is just a figure of speech and isn't meant to mean he's as fast as lightning.

Also dodging a car "with only a nanosecond to spare" doesn't imply he's a nano-second timer but rather highlights how close the dodge was.

Bro... these statements litterally have 10+ MHS to Rela feats backing them up as mentioned by the op. Even a Superman incomparably weaker than his end of mos self was stated to have hypersonic speeds, there is no reason to assume these statements are not reliable. Also lightning is also above the speed of sound so that shouldn't make the statements any less reliable too.

 

[Ozcantabak]

If anything, you should just use a nanosecond timeframe for Superman's jump, let's assume 5:

3.168 meters / 5e-9 seconds = 2.11 c

Why tho, i mean why assume the timeframe as nanoseconds, shouldn't we first find how much fast you need to be to precive 5 nanoseconds and put that in the formula ?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Why tho, i mean why assume the timeframe as nanoseconds, shouldn't we first find how much fast you need to be to precive 5 nanoseconds and put that in the formula ?

Because that would be considered to be calc-stacking, it's better to use stated timeframes for reactions when doing these types of feats.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Because that would be considered to be calc-stacking, it's better to use stated timeframes for reactions when doing these types of feats.

I think you misunderstood it, the statement doesn't say the Superman vs Flash fight takes place at nanoseconds, it implies Cyborg has nanosecond reactions or he can at least precive it (Cyborg also has a similar nanosecond statement in the theatrical cut). Also i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be calc stacking if a characters reaction time is stated as such (in this case lightning level or even nanosecond level, which i just realized, per our preception page is ftl).

 

[Jason_Courne]

These are just the calced feats btw, we have way more such: as superman carrying doomsday into space within seconds, Uxas reacting to lightning, 2 statements implying the cast are nanosecond timers, etc, further solidifying lightning speed as a fair lowball.

Zod's statement is outright unusable, the specific wording is "to spare" means he took a hugely noticeable amount of time to dodge compared to those nanoseconds

I personally think the "X-character is at lightning speed" statements could be hyperbolic or just flowery language, but since they have feats on this level it should be acceptable.
I also don't think the snail speed formula works, the Justice League are still moving (just very, very subtly) which is mostly because they're focused on matching Superman's strength not on moving around, so the validity of being "frozen in place" is questionable

I agree with removing the hard limit for FTL speed due to Barry's timetraveling and with Superman himself being FTL, however I'd vastly prefer just upscaling him Cyborg/Flash's nanosecond statement or Black Adam's SoL statements (around 3.3x FTL)

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Zod's statement is outright unusable, the specific wording is "to spare" means he took a hugely noticeable amount of time to dodge compared to those nanoseconds

I personally think the "X-character is at lightning speed" statements could be hyperbolic or just flowery language, but since they have feats on this level it should be acceptable.
I also don't think the snail speed formula works, the Justice League are still moving (just very, very subtly) which is mostly because they're focused on matching Superman's strength not on moving around, so the validity of being "frozen in place" is questionable

I agree with removing the hard limit for FTL speed due to Barry's timetraveling and with Superman himself being FTL, however I'd vastly prefer just upscaling him Cyborg/Flash's nanosecond statement or Black Adam's SoL statements (around 3.3x FTL)

What’re Black Adam’s statements?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I think you misunderstood it, the statement doesn't say the Superman vs Flash fight takes place at nanoseconds, it implies Cyborg has nanosecond reactions or he can at least precive it (Cyborg also has a similar nanosecond statement in the theatrical cut). Also i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be calc stacking if a characters reaction time is stated as such (in this case lightning level or even nanosecond level, which i just realized, per our preception page is ftl).

It's also sufficient for relativistic perceptions per that same page.

 

[Ozcantabak]

What’re Black Adam’s statements?

In conclusion: Superman should be FTL because he statues characters that are consistently stated to be lightning speed at the bare minimum, and highkey far surpass that casually, and this shouldn’t be an outlier as the flash can slow down time in relation to him so he doesn’t need to be going FTL to be on par with superman. The feat should lowkey even be accepted without the calc just due to how close WW tiers are to Lightspeed in general but the calc just solidifies it. This also builds consistency with The Rock stating 4 times that Black Adam was FTL but still admitted inferiority to superman.

It's also sufficient for relativistic perceptions per that same page.

Yeah, tho since the statement is "a nanosecond" i just assumed 1.

 

[Ozcantabak]

I was going to do this another thread, but, i also suggest adding a key for Post-Resurrection or Jl Onwards Supes, since there would be notable diffarence between his powers if this gets accepted.

 

[sageof8paths]

Zod's statement is outright unusable, the specific wording is "to spare" means he took a hugely noticeable amount of time to dodge compared to those nanoseconds

it was never the argument, it was just supporting evidence and not the be stood on its own.

I personally think the "X-character is at lightning speed" statements could be hyperbolic or just flowery language, but since they have feats on this level it should be acceptable.

great

I also don't think the snail speed formula works, the Justice League are still moving (just very, very subtly) which is mostly because they're focused on matching Superman's strength not on moving around, so the validity of being "frozen in place" is questionable

Disagree, they’re not moving noticeably at all in that sequence, even after he throws them, there’s absolutely no reaction or instinctive movement at all, they’re just statues

I agree with removing the hard limit for FTL speed due to Barry's timetraveling and with Superman himself being FTL, however I'd vastly prefer just upscaling him Cyborg/Flash's nanosecond statement or Black Adam's SoL statements (around 3.3x FTL)

i wanted to compile as much evidence as possible, and provide a calc to support the argument

 

[Jason_Courne]

it was never the argument, it was just supporting evidence and not the be stood on its own.

But using something blatantly incorrect as "supporting" evidence just weakens the total argument.

Both Cyborg and Flash being nanosecond timers is good enough imo

Disagree, they’re not moving noticeably at all in that sequence, even after he throws them, there’s absolutely no reaction or instinctive movement at all, they’re just statues

I know it sounds insane, but Aquaman's eyelines or head position change multiple times, Cyborg's hands very slightly move, and both of their arms are moving very subtly as they push against Superman

Superman is faster than the three of them, but moving faster than a person can react or percieve wouldn't be a snail's comparison

 

[Qawsedf234]

Even if the calculation is approved, It contradicts the canon and is a outlier for the reasons I mentioned.

I disagree

I'm in agreement here currently. I don't see FTL as being valid as a speed rating.

 

[sageof8paths]

But using something blatantly incorrect as "supporting" evidence just weakens the total argument.

Both Cyborg and Flash being nanosecond timers is good enough imo

I know it sounds insane, but Aquaman's eyelines or head position change multiple times, Cyborg's hands very slightly move, and both of their arms are moving very subtly as they push against Superman

Superman is faster than the three of them, but moving faster than a person can react or percieve wouldn't be a snail's comparison

i don’t see what ur saying at all even if the screenshots, the camera is moving, the lighting is changing, and there’s distortions in flash time, not aquaman moving.

 

[sageof8paths]

I'm in agreement here currently. I don't see FTL as being valid as a speed rating.

you agree with the post that completely strawmans my arguement

 

[Rex_Eckles]

No need to be snarky.

 

[Jason_Courne]

not aquaman moving

It's more visible if you direclty overlay the images in something like Photoshop or pixlr and swap between layers, you can see Aquaman's eyeline literally dips down, and back up, and his head also slightly nods down during the Flash Time, and in the third scan Cyborg's arm slightly push against Superman's shoulders

I know it sounds mostly schizophrenic, but I swear they are physically moving

 

[sageof8paths]

It's more visible if you direclty overlay the images in something like Photoshop or pixlr and swap between layers, you can see Aquaman's eyeline literally dips down, and back up, and his head also slightly nods down during the Flash Time, and in the third scan Cyborg's arm slightly push against Superman's shoulders

I know it sounds mostly schizophrenic, but I swear they are physically moving

bro this is just not supported by what happens seconds after when superman throws them and there’s absolutely NOTHING from them. You are probably getting confused by the camera movement, fluctuating lightning, and flashtime distortion. if they could move their eyes they would be showing some form of instinctual reaction to the superman throw.

 

[sageof8paths]

No need to be snarky.

the intention wasn’t to be snarky, but the fact is he didn’t actually tackle my argument at all

 

[Jason_Courne]

bro this is just not supported by what happens seconds after when superman throws them and there’s absolutely NOTHING from them. You are probably getting confused by the camera movement, fluctuating lightning, and flashtime distortion. if they could move their eyes they would be showing some form of instinctual reaction to the superman throw.

They are still moving after Superman's throw (except this time even more noticeably, and yes I also measured the backgrounds movement, they were still moving greater than the camera pan), and if they weren't that would mean Superman's own throw is frozen to his perception not the JL's movement

As I said earlier, Aquaman is literally turning his head down, changing the angle of his entire face and noticeably shifting his hairline, that can't just be camera affects or distortion. In a camera pan left, both Cyborg and Aquaman's arms were vertically shifting. Like if you watch frame by frame or in slow motion it's way more visible

An "instinctual" reaction is not instanteous, it doesn't literally happen at the exact moment of action, it still requires the brain to at least process information. There would be a lag between his actions and their perception to eventual reaction to it, especially when Superman's throw would involuntarily move them at faster speeds than themselves are capable of

 

[Ozcantabak]

bump

 

[Ozcantabak]

Bump

 

[Ozcantabak]

Bump

 

[Ozcantabak]

Bump

 

[Ozcantabak]

bump

 

[YuseiDragon1]

FTL is a clear outlier and not backed up by official sources.
Disagree.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

FTL is a clear outlier and not backed up by official sources.
Disagree.

I wouldn't say outlier, it's just that the method on the calculation is flawed.

 

[Ozcantabak]

FTL is a clear outlier and not backed up by official sources.
Disagree.

Are you sure you read the OP ?

I wouldn't say outlier, it's just that the method on the calculation is flawed.

I'm fine with using the nanosecond statement and BA statements insteaad of the calc, just waiting for more staff input.

 

[sageof8paths]

Are you sure you read the OP ?

I'm fine with using the nanosecond statement and BA statements insteaad of the calc, just waiting for more staff input.

im saying bro.

no one that disagrees with the non-outlier justification has actually engaged with the arguments placed, its just strawmans and illogical dismissals

 

[Ozcantabak]

vump

 

[Legion350]

Zod's statement is outright unusable, the specific wording is "to spare" means he took a hugely noticeable amount of time to dodge compared to those nanoseconds

I personally think the "X-character is at lightning speed" statements could be hyperbolic or just flowery language, but since they have feats on this level it should be acceptable.
I also don't think the snail speed formula works, the Justice League are still moving (just very, very subtly) which is mostly because they're focused on matching Superman's strength not on moving around, so the validity of being "frozen in place" is questionable

I agree with removing the hard limit for FTL speed due to Barry's timetraveling and with Superman himself being FTL, however I'd vastly prefer just upscaling him Cyborg/Flash's nanosecond statement or Black Adam's SoL statements (around 3.3x FTL)

Is the 3.3x FTL from Cyborg's nanosecond statement or Black Adam?

So, my issue here with the nanosecond statements is that they reach FTL. This means most of the cast would be FTL as well. Also the first statement is from Man of Steel, meaning Superman & Flash would need to be MFTL+ for the calc's logic to work.

That being said, I think FTL Superman could work as a possibly/likely rating using upscaling from Relativistic+ feats, and Black Adam statements. The first three statements explicitly mention they can move at the speed of light, and then the last one says faster than light, so it works.

Though, I don't the statements imply Superman scales over Black Adam, especially since the Rock implies them moving at comparable speed.

 

[Legion350]

Though I think Superman definitely needs multiple keys, because we have seen that he’s grown throughout the DCEU.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Is the 3.3x FTL from Cyborg's nanosecond statement or Black Adam?

So, my issue here with the nanosecond statements is that they reach FTL. This means most of the cast would be FTL as well. Also the first statement is from Man of Steel, meaning Superman & Flash would need to be MFTL+ for the calc's logic to work.

That being said, I think FTL Superman could work as a possibly/likely rating using upscaling from Relativistic+ feats, and Black Adam statements. The first three statements explicitly mention they can move at the speed of light, and then the last one says faster than light, so it works.

Though, I don't the statements imply Superman scales over Black Adam, especially since the Rock implies them moving at comparable speed.

It's coming from Cyborg. Having nanosecond reactions/preceptions is 3x ftl.

That statement implies Cyborg has ftl reactions/preceptions which i don't think scales to other cast cause none of them blitz him like Superman does, but even if other people scales to it it wouldn't contridict anything said in the op.

I disagree with this, the wiki accepts Rock's other WoG without the "likely/possibly" part and them upscaling rela+ characters adds even more bonus to this.

Rock repedeatly says Supes is the number 1 in the verse, he always mentions how Superman would hold back and BA would weaken him with his magic and even then it'd be a though fight for them.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

It must firstly be established that Barry gets his power from the speed force which he describes as a “dimensional layer of reality that manipulates space-time”.

This illustrates how Barry’s time manipulation is due to the speed forces ability to manipulate space-time and NOT just the raw speed of going ftl; nothing suggests that time travel is possible with just raw linear speed in the dceu without the speed force, even if you go ftl, as it’s through space-time manipulation.

The best I could see here is that Barry is just running at normal human speeds but speed force makes time slows down around him instead which makes it seem like he is moving super fast from an outside's perspective, makes sense but it doesn't change his hard limit on light speed because he would be talking about outside perspective since for him he is moving at normal human speed. Your argument relies on Barry being both super fast and slowing down time at the same time which I saw no support for.

We see that Barry’s Time manipulation doesn’t start at him going FTL but rather going relative to the speed of light as he says “When i approach the speed of light weird things start happening to time”. This is clearly referencing the theory of relativity, on how time slows down

when approaching the speed of light. This means when Barry is going at relativistic speeds he slows down time via time manipulation granted by the speed force.

Why is this relevant? Because we know that superman does not possess any time manipulation powers regardless of speed so even though a suppressed flash might appear >≈ than him in flash time, it can be asserted that this is due to Barry + speed slowing down time while Superman is just using raw speed.

A good visual representation of what i’m saying is in the final act, moments before Barry reverses time, we see the unity slowdown/stop before it eventually starts reversing, despite Barry not appearing to be moving much faster highlighting the time manipulation aspects of his powers.

the JL and co would have to be like Hypersonic+ or smth for them to be this slow for Barry with to statue them with raw movement alone, and we obviously know why that’s not the case from the numerous statements and feats in the verse.

This is the best explanation as to why the JL all have feats approaching the speed of light yet they’re all frozen like a statue, despite Barry canonically not going Ftl, it’s because he’s also slowing down time, especially because we know that Superman still gets faster in the final battle, therefore,

Superman being Ftl is not an outlier as the narrative asserts that the flash can slow down time, giving him an even greater speed advantage in addition to raw speed, which would make FTL things appear slower in comparison to him.
[/SPOILER]

Essencially your argument relies on Barry being wrong, because the reason he set the hard rule on light speed is because time starts to get weird when he goes that fast, but your argument relies on Barry causing time to be affected the moment he starts moving at any speeds. You are making a big leap without support.

Don't like the use of The rock as source he is an actor who clearly had plans that never came to be, his control over the "universe" is little to none (He made Henry Cavill lie), there were some actors doing some heavy statements about Marvel too which were never taken seriously exacly because of that.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Don't like the use of The rock as source he is an actor who clearly had plans that never came to be, his control over the "universe" is little to none (He made Henry Cavill lie), there were some actors doing some heavy statements about Marvel too which were never taken seriously exacly because of that.

The wiki currently accepts Rocks WoG, he was the executive producer of Black Adam and this guy definitly had controll over the universe at that time, he litterally removed Black Adam from Shazam 2. Also this isn't Marvel bro, but even then Chris Hemsworth was also the executive producer of Thor LaT and his WoG is also accepted for that film.