All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Azertyhuuh]

Well, I have two metas for DB scaling:
1 - Outerversal meta with Afterlife/ r>f Tori-bot. For them it's pretty good, but considering the fact someone would probably mention saiyan saga time or any other thing that Toriyama clearly retconed, I think it needs some time and preparations for this wiki, since it's too strict for DB in this moment, but some time, some time(I'll try to create CRT for them, but later, maybe a month or smth).
2 - Dimension bound meta with 7-8D Crack of Time.

Kid, Dragon Ball follows a Type 3 multiverse theory, which makes it High 1-B, and Koyama himself stated that the universe contains infinite dimensions. As for the Afterlife, it is Low 1-A.
Dragon Ball Heroes, with Beat World, is 1-A.

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Am I seeing things or did Robo actually change his pfp?

 

[Robo432343]

Am I seeing things or did Robo actually change his pfp?

yes its me

 

[Robo432343]

Kid, Dragon Ball follows a Type 3 multiverse theory, which makes it High 1-B, and Koyama himself stated that the universe contains infinite dimensions. As for the Afterlife, it is Low 1-A.
Dragon Ball Heroes, with Beat World, is 1-A.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Tbf, even Daizenshu has some information and number issues(like it states Goku's pl is just 8000, when in anime and manga it's beyond 8000).

Having some issues with power level is not the same as directly admitting that your sources partially come from videos (not the original source not knowledgeable people. Literally videos) and fans.

Hell, you can see across the guide that they constantly mention things like "Here's a theory", "On this work it is like this, so Dragon Ball is similar/better/worse". Why would a book which hold canonicity and explains objectively how the world of DB works mention writers' theories if they are the Word of God?

Also this guide in the first chapter states that characters can move at relativistic and faster speeds, at the point where they don't need spaceships for travel(except space travel for long distances)

Yeah, the guide constantly keeps saying "well, we did claim this in the first book, but now that we think it that's wrong! Let's fix that"

, so this kind of things are for only in-game,

Even if that were the case: why would they use matches instead of c, given they are the Word of God and shall know characters in DB are faster than light?

they even state that there are no real pl for characters cuz we can't even measure their power, which is the same thing as in Daizenshu.

Closest I've seen is that they say Toriyama claimed "there is no way to mathematically measure the increase" (which is false: Toriyama claimed the increase is 50x. Another contradiction that makes the books unreliable) not that there are no real power levels. Hell, they keep claiming that they got power levels, partially, from official sources (though they confused Goku's SSJ power level of 150M with 15M, bruh)

Also this rpg guide has Shueisha and Toei copyright, so it's kinda canon at this point.

Having copyright doesn't make something inherently canon. Any product regarding any character that is sold shall have copyright. Doesn't mean it is taking as face value and something that is taken in consideration to the cosmology.

There are just too many issues to consider this book even a secondary sources: writers claiming parts are their theories (something that doesn't make sense for a WoG. If you are stating things as factual, and your information comes from first hand and is reliable, you won't have to craft theories because your word is what dictates how the things work), errors in Power Levels/multipliers, sources that are not official like directly asking fans for information, asking people to look at other works for better understanding of how things might work... Just "it is copyrighted" and making false equivalences to other guidebooks that do not remotely have these problems will not fix all of that.

 

[Mgebrat282]

The Pendulum Room and the Time Room are the same thing but this blog disagrees

Hm...Aren't they different from RoSaT? I saw someone tried to scale Garlick via Time Room, but does RoSaT scale to it?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Why you assume merging with present timeline itself if it was never stated and he didn't even started merging with universe, let alone timeline? In fact he didn't even merged with timeline of his world. That's why he is "eventually Low 1-C" instead of just low 1-C.

I mean that’s being very semantical in all honesty. It’s already stated that he was merging with the universe as he’s literally doing it. Then afterwards we see him peer into other timelines. The narrative implication is clear.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Also why are we still dragging bulma's arguments into 2026? It's crystal clear that bulma didn't know what she was talking about lmfao

Jaco who has been constantly travelling through the entire universe for decades vs PRESENT bulma who had to rely on FUTURE Bulma's notes to create the time machine because at the time (The present) Bulma had very limited knowledge about time-travel, and I think even pilaf pulled an a** pull that made bulma finish constructing the whole thing, so yeah it's still sad knowing that people this use this outdated, continuously debunked argument, and the Low 1-C thread should absolutely not be reopened again it's been already concluded.

You know what’s funny is that I swear it was already accepted that her statement was unreliable.

 

[Mgebrat282]

Having some issues with power level is not the same as directly admitting that your sources partially come from videos (not the original source not knowledgeable people. Literally videos) and fans.

I don't remember it stating that.

Hell, you can see across the guide that they constantly mention things like "Here's a theory", "On this work it is like this, so Dragon Ball is similar/better/worse". Why would a book which hold canonicity and explains objectively how the world of DB works mention writers' theories if they are the Word of God?

Well, it says in the start they used Daizenshu and other things, so when it's not clear in material, they just state their theory in wordbox.

Yeah, the guide constantly keeps saying "well, we did claim this in the first book, but now that we think it that's wrong! Let's fix that"

I read all 3 of them, but I can't remember statements like that

Even if that were the case: why would they use matches instead of c, given they are the Word of God and shall know characters in DB are faster than light?

Maybe for d&d like thing? In the guide they clearly state that Bulma is ordinary human, but in-game content they gave her some big stats.

Closest I've seen is that they say Toriyama claimed "there is no way to mathematically measure the increase" (which is false: Toriyama claimed the increase is 50x. Another contradiction that makes the books unreliable) not that there are no real power levels. Hell, they keep claiming that they got power levels, partially, from official sources (though they confused Goku's SSJ power level of 150M with 15M, bruh)

Well, Daizenshu states the same about PL, but we don't say that it's not canon because of it. And thing with 150m and 15m can be just a typing mistake, since in Daizenshu 150M PL was written with kanji this way it can be mistaken for 15M(this type of sht happenes even in official dub, I remember in Russian dub of Spider-man 1994 many such mistakes(Yeah, I'm Russian)).

Having copyright doesn't make something inherently canon. Any product regarding any character that is sold shall have copyright. Doesn't mean it is taking as face value and something that is taken in consideration to the cosmology..

But it still tells you it's not some kind of no name thing, but official thing

 

[Mgebrat282]

The Time Room and the RoSaT is not the same place but the Time Room and the Pendulum Room is the same place.

And did Vegeta destroy it?

 

[RanHover60]

Dragon Ball Super cosmology: Low 1-A.
Dragon Ball Heroes cosmology: 1-A.
And soon it will be upgraded to this level as well—I’m here for that.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I don't remember it stating that.

There you go

Well, it says in the start they used Daizenshu and other things, so when it's not clear in material, they just state their theory in wordbox.

...or they don't? Where was it stated that people in Dragon Ball "manipulate the E=MC^2 formula perfectly so they can create massless spaceships that travel at SoL" literally anywhere else but in that book?

Hell, even if we go by your logic that the main source of the book is Daizenshuu and all other already-existent databooks... then more reason to not consider it canon, because it's just retelling what you either see happen on the work or is told in the Daizenshuu. I.e., their veracity only goes as far as the information they are claiming comes from the work/the Daizenshuu. So, directly looking at the original source of information rather than a book who only tells you the interpretation a certain person gave to what he found on the Databook is always more reliable. And, given they have stated to fix the gaps not stated with whatever is on their mind several times, then everything not in already well known databooks is meaningless because it can perfectly be a headcanon, like several "a guess here and there" or "ok, Toriyama didn't say this but we think it works this way" claims.

I read all 3 of them, but I can't remember statements like that

Refer to the previous imgur link

Maybe for d&d like thing? In the guide they clearly state that Bulma is ordinary human, but in-game content they gave her some big stats.

I doubt changing the word "match" for "c" will cause too many problems in a d&d game.

Well, Daizenshu states the same about PL, but we don't say that it's not canon because of it.

The difference is, Daizenshuu is not constantly written in a hypothetical tone. It states how things work, does not make theories and fills the gaps with the person's headcanon. Doesn't say "Toriyama didn't explain this", because they are the Word of God. They are explaining how things work in canon, not a summary of what Toriyama said or didn't say.

And thing with 150m and 15m can be just a typing mistake, since in Daizenshu 150M PL was written with kanji this way it can be mistaken for 15M(this type of sht happenes even in official dub, I remember in Russian dub of Spider-man 1994 many such mistakes(Yeah, I'm Russian)).

Refer to the previous imgur link.

But it still tells you it's not some kind of no name thing, but official thing

Official≠Canon. Official just means it is approved by the registered Mark.

Crossovers like Luffy's one in Dragon Ball are official, because the one who holds the registered mark of One Piece allowed it to happen. Pretty sure you'd also find them on the credits of said crossovers. Doesn't mean they are canon to all series involved.

Tl;Dr:

• Editors have claimed not to have watched sagas of the work so they put incorrect information that couldn't fix until a later version of the book where they already watched said sagas (so, who's gonna confirm there are no other mistakes he didn't realize/couldn't fix? Why would the information given by someone who hasn't even read the work completely at the point of some books even matter?)
• Part of their sources are videos, guesses and fans' opinions, truly not a reliable source
• They fill the gaps of information with their own headcanon, admitted several times. Meaning the word is not entirely reliable (something they even say: "we don't claim to be entirely accurate")
• Fail to even state easily-verifiable information like Frieza's and Goku's power levels or SSJ's multiplier.

So, yeah, this is not the case of any databook you could think of (because it isn't a databook, just a d&d-esque book to explain in a general manner how things work so the one reading can take the position of GM)

Edit: I just found this. Point proven by Editors' word

 

[TiltedFN]

Wth is this chat dawg

 

[Nullflowerblush]

they even said SSJ multiplier is just 2,5x base, that the speed for character shall not go above Match 20 or that no character can be above SoL except space machines because they have a technology that makes them massless.

You're confusing the supplementary information and the tabletop RPG game information.

 

[StarShooter80]

3 pages straight of some cosmology bullshit with the same people

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why do the Dragon Balls emit radio waves?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

One of the funniest memes Brazilians have ever created

 

[Vietthai96]

Do we have any proofs that Infinite Zamasu had AP equal or higher to fused Zamasu? My interpretation was always that only immortal Zamasu's soul merged with universe (that's why we could see his face) and his AP didn't changed. Just range and durability. That would put Jiren above Fused Zamasu, which is more logical

Ki is also the soul, not just the body. So saying only his soul merged with stuff but his AP didn't change or something is kinda wrong. Unless you want explicit statement of oh hey in this state he is stronger than before or something like this, then no.

About Jiren, he is scaled to the IZ before he was erased by Zeno, not the hypothetical eventually Low 1-C IZ

 

[BoastJr]

Dokkan Scaling when, Bio Broly erases everyone who ever existed

 

[supertomioka]

IZ is only accepted to be eventually low 1-c on the site, jiren would only scale above IZ's 2-c rating, not his 1-c rating

As you can see from my previous text I am saying that the "eventually" thing is BS and I completely do not agree, but it was "safer" option.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's just a bunch of Dragon Ball fans explaining a compilation of their knowledge, what they read, what they saw on the red and what they asked to other fans to create a D&D-like book that helps for world creation and fills the gaps of DB that cannot be explained with IRL physics with headcanon and it includes inaccurate information as if it were nothing and do not claim to be completely accurate, just fix things so they can work with it in a game.

So context wise, the person who made those was Mike Pondsmith, the man who made the Cyberpunk tabletop games. He's an author who doesn't stuff being powerful, but they have to be grounded in some fashion into real-life concepts. For example he wanted to make a magnetic shield in Cyberpunk that could deflect bullets but read up on electromagnetic principles, and when he did the math he realized any shield strong enough to do that would be strong enough to destroy cyberware as well.

When making the DB RPG, he's doing the same the same thing. He's trying to align Dragon Ball with real life principles so it doesn't break physics to hard, which is why you get weird speed caps despite the game mechanically letting you blow up a planet or lift a mountain since those are easier to justify under relativity.

Finally when the guide was released there was still a very distinct disconnect Eastern Fandoms and more standard Western Fandoms like the Comic Book or D&D crowd. So some of the references he uses is in relation to that to the best of my understanding.

Overall I wouldn't say the guide is the same level of the Daizenshuu or something, nor would I use it for an upgrade attempt. But statement wise what it's saying makes sense for the context it was released in. But it doesn't make it valid for the wiki's purposes.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

So context wise, the person who made those was Mike Pondsmith, the man who made the Cyberpunk tabletop games. He's an author who doesn't stuff being powerful, but they have to be grounded in some fashion into real-life concepts. For example he wanted to make a magnetic shield in Cyberpunk that could deflect bullets but read up on electromagnetic principles, and when he did the math he realized any shield strong enough to do that would be strong enough to destroy cyberware as well.

When making the DB RPG, he's doing the same the same thing. He's trying to align Dragon Ball with real life principles so it doesn't break physics to hard, which is why you get weird speed caps despite the game mechanically letting you blow up a planet or lift a mountain since those are easier to justify under relativity.

Finally when the guide was released there was still a very distinct disconnect Eastern Fandoms and more standard Western Fandoms like the Comic Book or D&D crowd. So some of the references he uses is in relation to that to the best of my understanding.

Overall I wouldn't say the guide is the same level of the Daizenshuu or something, nor would I use it for an upgrade attempt. But statement wise what it's saying makes sense for the context it was released in. But it doesn't make it valid for the wiki's purposes.

Bro, can you help me here?


https://vsbattles.com/threads/vegito-and-zamasu-upgrade-thread-yet-again.181027/

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bro, can you help me out here?

I'll look at it later™

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'll look at it later™

Thank you very much

 

[RedReaper616]

I had a thought. When Spopovich got the Majin power up, he could survive having his neck snapped and put it back—Like a low grade Zombie. Shouldn’t Vegeta have that as well? At least, temporarily? (As he dies and is resurrected without it).

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No; Daizenshuu 7 describes Spopovich's body uniquely as having "become like a corpse", and Babidi's Manipulation Sorcery increases the target's latent abilities beyond their limits, rather than simply granting every individual the same, fixed power multiplier and set of additional abilities.

Also, why would the abilities be temporary?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I was thinking here, if each timeline has its own different stories, then does each of them have different time axes?

 

[StarShooter80]

Bro, can you help me here?


https://vsbattles.com/threads/vegito-and-zamasu-upgrade-thread-yet-again.181027/

Thread's already accepted so not really much of a need for more input

 

[Mgebrat282]

There you go

Well, things like "We changed this" and such come only from in-game things, where they even state "Well, that's fine for him, but as game designers, we needed NUMBERS.", these statements come from only in-game pages that are devided from lore statements.
Example:
Basic Combat...63
What is an adventure game?...64
Intruductory Rules:

You understand. And about numbers they state that they used official sources, and was just occasionaly guessed and asked fans.

...or they don't? Where was it stated that people in Dragon Ball "manipulate the E=MC^2 formula perfectly so they can create massless spaceships that travel at SoL" literally anywhere else but in that book?

Hell, even if we go by your logic that the main source of the book is Daizenshuu and all other already-existent databooks... then more reason to not consider it canon, because it's just retelling what you either see happen on the work or is told in the Daizenshuu. I.e., their veracity only goes as far as the information they are claiming comes from the work/the Daizenshuu. So, directly looking at the original source of information rather than a book who only tells you the interpretation a certain person gave to what he found on the Databook is always more reliable. And, given they have stated to fix the gaps not stated with whatever is on their mind several times, then everything not in already well known databooks is meaningless because it can perfectly be a headcanon, like several "a guess here and there" or "ok, Toriyama didn't say this but we think it works this way" claims.

Well, if they use official material and don't say it's their headcanon, then it's true.

I doubt changing the word "match" for "c" will cause too many problems in a d&d game.

Sorry, I don't kinda understand what it mean, can you explain it please?

The difference is, Daizenshuu is not constantly written in a hypothetical tone. It states how things work, does not make theories and fills the gaps with the person's headcanon. Doesn't say "Toriyama didn't explain this", because they are the Word of God. They are explaining how things work in canon, not a summary of what Toriyama said or didn't say.

Well, they kinda do the same as Daizenshu talking about lore and how some things work in DB with direct statements.

Official≠Canon. Official just means it is approved by the registered Mark.

Crossovers like Luffy's one in Dragon Ball are official, because the one who holds the registered mark of One Piece allowed it to happen. Pretty sure you'd also find them on the credits of said crossovers. Doesn't mean they are canon to all series involved.

That's right, but I doubt that can be applied to databooks, since they are other types of media.

• They fill the gaps of information with their own headcanon, admitted several times. Meaning the word is not entirely reliable (something they even say: "we don't claim to be entirely accurate")

That's for in-game things only

Edit: I just found this. Point proven by Editors' word

"We've pieced all this(they previously talked about only official sources, no fan or headcanon) together to give you, the reade, some idea of what life might be like on Dragonball Z"

 

[Mgebrat282]

So context wise, the person who made those was Mike Pondsmith, the man who made the Cyberpunk tabletop games. He's an author who doesn't stuff being powerful, but they have to be grounded in some fashion into real-life concepts. For example he wanted to make a magnetic shield in Cyberpunk that could deflect bullets but read up on electromagnetic principles, and when he did the math he realized any shield strong enough to do that would be strong enough to destroy cyberware as well.

When making the DB RPG, he's doing the same the same thing. He's trying to align Dragon Ball with real life principles so it doesn't break physics to hard, which is why you get weird speed caps despite the game mechanically letting you blow up a planet or lift a mountain since those are easier to justify under relativity.

Finally when the guide was released there was still a very distinct disconnect Eastern Fandoms and more standard Western Fandoms like the Comic Book or D&D crowd. So some of the references he uses is in relation to that to the best of my understanding.

Overall I wouldn't say the guide is the same level of the Daizenshuu or something, nor would I use it for an upgrade attempt. But statement wise what it's saying makes sense for the context it was released in. But it doesn't make it valid for the wiki's purposes.

Well, everyone has their own opinion about the reliability of this source(I've talked to people who don't consider Daizenshu to be a canon because it contains contradictions and wasn't written by Toriyama). But why it can't be used as valid source for wiki?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Well, things like "We changed this" and such come only from in-game things, where they even state "Well, that's fine for him, but as game designers, we needed NUMBERS.", these statements come from only in-game pages that are devided from lore statements.
Example:
Basic Combat...63
What is an adventure game?...64
Intruductory Rules:

You understand. And about numbers they state that they used official sources, and was just occasionaly guessed and asked fans.

You forgot the part where the editor admitted he included false information because at that time hadn't read part of the sagas of Dragon Ball

Well, if they use official material and don't say it's their headcanon, then it's true.

Not necessarily.

"We've pieced all this(they previously talked about only official sources, no fan or headcanon) together to give you, the reade, some idea of what life might be like on Dragonball Z"

"but this summary should, by no
means, be considered either exhaustive or entirely gospel. Where consistency is required, we have occasionally taken the liberty of assuming certain things as fact or extrapolating how things might work". This is before they start talking about all cosmological structures. Meaning it ain't to be taken as a gospel or exhaustive investigation per their own words.

So, yeah, they admited that, by describing the cosmology, they just filled the gaps with their own headcanon, extrapolation and assumptions, not official source. Which supports the point I stated before:
They are just putting what they've read in some guides (which doesn't include later sagas, given the editor stated he hasn't read later sagas at that book) and including what their personal opinion to fill the gaps, so, it shall not be used as a gospel. It doesn't even make sense to use it as a support proof given you don't know if the information you are reading is actually canon or "assumptions and extrapolations they made to fill the gaps". So, sticking to the original, actually reliable guidebooks is better than remotely using a book who is confirmed to not be entirely reliable by the very editors

 

[RedReaper616]

No; Daizenshuu 7 describes Spopovich's body uniquely as having "become like a corpse", and Babidi's Manipulation Sorcery increases the target's latent abilities beyond their limits, rather than simply granting every individual the same, fixed power multiplier and set of additional abilities.

Ah. Which I guess implies humans have the potential to become Zombies.

Also, why would the abilities be temporary?

I meant specifically for Vegeta’s Buu Saga key/profile, not in general. Vegeta only had the Majin thing going for him temporarily/for a few chapters, so it would be a temporary thing for him.

 

[Mgebrat282]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Vegito_(DBS_Anime) That's illogical, does multipliers from transformations give universes(in this case SSB gave 3 universes) or not?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

No, he scales to 6 universes in SSB because his blue form is accepted to scale to 2 GoDs fighting destroying 2 macrocosms, not because of a multipliers

 

[Mgebrat282]

No, he scales to 6 universes in SSB because his blue form is accepted to scale to 2 GoDs fighting destroying 2 macrocosms

But in base he scales to 3 universes and when he transforms in SSB he gets 6 universes, so multiplier from SSB gave him 3 universes. That's what I meant

 

[StarShooter80]

But in base he scales to 3 universes and when he transforms in SSB he gets 6 universes, so multiplier from SSB gave him 3 universes. That's what I meant

Note 1

 

[Mgebrat282]

Note 1

Bro, I know about this. I just simply shown a contradiction, where Vegito gets 3 universes from SSB multiplier

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, everyone has their own opinion about the reliability of this source(I've talked to people who don't consider Daizenshu to be a canon because it contains contradictions and wasn't written by Toriyama). But why it can't be used as valid source for wiki?

It's part of the canon page:

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material. When other source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that contradict the tertiary canon in the depiction of the feat, the others take precedence. And here as well, if the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should by judging the feat through primary or secondary canon a different result be reached than for tertiary canon the result of primary or secondary canon will have priority.

• Entirely new feats of tertiary canon, like for example new abilities, should be disregarded. Details added to existing fight scenes, such as damage caused to the surroundings, can be accepted for text based media like books.
• Any changes based on tertiary canon will only be accepted if they are not contradicted by any instances of another canon, with regards to either the character power-scale, or logical inconsistencies (and plot holes).
• All of the rules that are written in the Cinematic Time page still apply when it comes to evaluation of such tertiary canon feats.

Ultimately on the site it's a third tier canon document with multiple stated issues regarding canonicity and Mike Pondsmith/RA having to introduce justifications for different concepts.

I wouldn't say its entirely unusable, but the upgrades you're attempting to pursue with it is going to run into issues with site standards.

 

[Supersonicmaker]

does anyone know the exact values toei bardock and canon bardock scale to respectfully?

 

[Treeztarz]

does anyone know the exact values toei bardock and canon bardock scale to respectfully?

It should be one of the first things here