Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread

[Chariot190]

2-C Zelda ?! What is the feat?

Echoes of Wisdom; full Triforce explicitly verbatim can erase the universe/space&time. 2-C because Light+Dark world (might include a few more, idk if we decided what to count yet but it's at least those two).

 

[Hypertornado099]

Is there anything that contradicts OoT Ganondorf being comparable to TP Ganondorf? "Comparable" as in, not weak enough to get incapped by TP Ganon's casual attacks

 

[Chariot190]

Is there anything that contradicts OoT Ganondorf being comparable to TP Ganondorf? "Comparable" as in, not weak enough to get incapped by TP Ganon's casual attacks

Not really? There's no real scaling between them except the MS and "it's the exact same mf" + ToP.
TP Ganon is likely stronger given the 200+ extra years of magic bullshit tacked on but the MS between OOT and TP shouldn't be different in power that much, if at all (don't forget TP timeline is from a timeline where the MS wasn't used in OOT so it's holy powers it had in OOT wouldn't have been expended), and the ToP obviously isn't changing so that locks Ganon in at a hard minimum baseline. I was gonna say in TP it got that sol boost, but that's only in the twilight realm. Based on what we know for a fact they'd be same ballpark, there probably is a gap, but not enough to effect ratings.

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Echoes of Wisdom; full Triforce explicitly verbatim can erase the universe/space&time.

Do you have the statement, please?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Echoes of Wisdom; full Triforce explicitly verbatim can erase the universe/space&time. 2-C because Light+Dark world (might include a few more, idk if we decided what to count yet but it's at least those two).

Does this benefit Null or he's still a fraud?

 

[Chariot190]

Does this benefit Null or he's still a fraud?

No because he literally never got it all, but that was his whole goal. He's just a fraud so he never actually got that into the plan.

Do you have the statement, please?

Not on hand but I can grab it later, it's a bit spread out in terms of exact details but if you look up the japanese script, specifically towards the end when Zelda goes into the place with the Triforce and echo Zelda is there (it's like right before the final boss sequence), echo Zelda yaps and outright says the full Triforce can erase all of space and time as to return the world to a void. The english one says basically the same shit just worded diff.

 

[TheGatememer]

Anyone got a link to the Class G TotK calculation?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Ik I'll be destroyed for this, but why do we treat Ganon in ALTTP as not being powered by full triforce? There are many statement of the opposite, room thing is artistic choice and it's an habit from mario and the likes games, yuga ganon does the same. And, if as I have searched we consider PIS/inconsistent that Link beats that Ganon, my question is.. why? The golden sword doesn't have a power limitation, and even though it doesn't have powers against the triforce, Link has the moon pearl as able to repel the triforce power. ALBW shows as a golden master sword able to defeat yuga ganon with two pieces, while basic MS usually needs ToC to match ToP user, I don't see the inconsistency here since the sword used in ALTTP doesn't have like a power limit.

 

[Chariot190]

Ik I'll be destroyed for this, but why do we treat Ganon in ALTTP as not being powered by full triforce?

We don't.
Or well, we shouldn't, I'm more in favor of just saying Link boxing him is retroactive PIS.

There are many statement of the opposite, room thing is artistic choice and it's an habit from mario and the likes games, yuga ganon does the same. And, if as I have searched we consider PIS/inconsistent that Link beats that Ganon, my question is.. why?

Retroactive outlier.
It wasn't when the game came out (so 90s Link would have been like 3-A), but as more lore and yap came out through the games, the idea of a Triforceless anything competing with it is straight up narrative and lore breaking with a lot of caps added below it.

The golden sword doesn't have a power limitation, and even though it doesn't have powers against the triforce, Link has the moon pearl as able to repel the triforce power.

Moon Pearl don't grant stats tho.

ALBW shows as a golden master sword able to defeat yuga ganon with two pieces,

Part of the problem, Link with the ToC + the very same golden sword is only =~ Two pieces, and the full Triforce is infinitely > the sum of its parts.
The golden sword is very well not a infinite power amp by that alone.

while basic MS usually needs ToC to match ToP user, I don't see the inconsistency here since the sword used in ALTTP doesn't have like a power limit.

You yourself just pointed one out, it can't one shot Yuga with two pieces while yielded by an even more power Link who has ToC stacked atop it.
It obviously can't contest an infinitely stronger Ganon unless we say the only reason he could harm Ganon was the whole evil neg facet and nothing to do with AP.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

We don't.
Or well, we shouldn't, I'm more in favor of just saying Link boxing him is retroactive PIS.

Retroactive outlier.
It wasn't when the game came out (so 90s Link would have been like 3-A), but as more lore and yap came out through the games, the idea of a Triforceless anything competing with it is straight up narrative and lore breaking with a lot of caps added below it.

Moon Pearl don't grant stats tho.

Part of the problem, Link with the ToC + the very same golden sword is only =~ Two pieces, and the full Triforce is infinitely > the sum of its parts.
The golden sword is very well not a infinite power amp by that alone.

You yourself just pointed one out, it can't one shot Yuga with two pieces while yielded by an even more power Link who has ToC stacked atop it.
It obviously can't contest an infinitely stronger Ganon unless we say the only reason he could harm Ganon was the whole evil neg facet and nothing to do with AP.

I see, the only thing that I can add is that in ALBW the Golden sword is level 3, while there is a case for ALTTP golden sword being called level 4 master sword in the ambiguously canon Ancient Stone Tablets (and one could argue that it does double the damage in game as well but this little thing is more of an add than everything), still it is true that ALBW Link had a level 3 golden sword + ToC so I do understand the idea of treating it as outlier instead of coming up with the so random idea Ganon wasn't using full triforce, I'd remove the justification under Ganon page then + I'd still argue that Link from ALTTP should scale to small planet level with the golden sword, maybe a likely rating would be nice, and if you are OK with the evidence of it being level 4 sword so there is room to say that it hasn't really a limit I would suggest a possibly scaling to full triforce rating. Also, why 3-A, doesn't Echoes of wisdom actually confirm tier 2?

 

[Omegabronic]

We don't.
Or well, we shouldn't, I'm more in favor of just saying Link boxing him is retroactive PIS.

Retroactive outlier.
It wasn't when the game came out (so 90s Link would have been like 3-A), but as more lore and yap came out through the games, the idea of a Triforceless anything competing with it is straight up narrative and lore breaking with a lot of caps added below it.

Moon Pearl don't grant stats tho.

Part of the problem, Link with the ToC + the very same golden sword is only =~ Two pieces, and the full Triforce is infinitely > the sum of its parts.
The golden sword is very well not a infinite power amp by that alone.

You yourself just pointed one out, it can't one shot Yuga with two pieces while yielded by an even more power Link who has ToC stacked atop it.
It obviously can't contest an infinitely stronger Ganon unless we say the only reason he could harm Ganon was the whole evil neg facet and nothing to do with AP.

You are just scared of the pink haired Link to be the strongest Link, aren't you?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I see, the only thing that I can add is that in ALBW the Golden sword is level 3, while there is a case for ALTTP golden sword being called level 4 master sword in the ambiguously canon Ancient Stone Tablets

Don't even need ancient stone tablets (Also isn't that just straight up non-canon instead of ambiguously canon?) since it's called the level 4 sword in ALTTP too. Not that it matters since the thing with ALTTP (And stone tablets IG) is that it's not the level 4 master sword, it's just the level 4 sword. The game counts the sword Link's uncle gives him as level 1, then the Master Sword itself was level 2, so it'd be more accurate to say the Golden Sword in ALTTP / Stone Tablets is the level 3 master sword like it is in ALBW.

still it is true that ALBW Link had a level 3 golden sword + ToC so I do understand the idea of treating it as outlier instead of coming up with the so random idea Ganon wasn't using full triforce, I'd remove the justification under Ganon page then

Yeah think it was discussed a few months ago to readjust beast Ganon's tiering and just add a new one to Link saying it'd be PIS / an outlier for him to beat full Triforce Ganon.

I'd still argue that Link from ALTTP should scale to small planet level with the golden sword, maybe a likely rating would be nice

Small planet level based on what?

and if you are OK with the evidence of it being level 4 sword so there is room to say that it hasn't really a limit I would suggest a possibly scaling to full triforce rating

The base Master Sword already doesn't really have a limit to how strong it can get, Golden Sword isn't unique in that regard (Hell it's part of the Master Sword being able to become much stronger), but that doesn't mean we can slap a possibly scaling to the full Triforce for how it appeared in ALTTP just because of that.

Also, why 3-A, doesn't Echoes of wisdom actually confirm tier 2?

3-A would be what Link would've been at the time of ALTTP's inital release since that's the highest level of power the Triforce showed at the time and due to the lore not being as fleshed out he would've had scaling to Ganon.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Don't even need ancient stone tablets (Also isn't that just straight up non-canon instead of ambiguously canon?) since it's called the level 4 sword in ALTTP too. Not that it matters since the thing with ALTTP (And stone tablets IG) is that it's not the level 4 master sword, it's just the level 4 sword. The game counts the sword Link's uncle gives him as level 1, then the Master Sword itself was level 2, so it'd be more accurate to say the Golden Sword in ALTTP / Stone Tablets is the level 3 master sword like it is in ALBW.


Yeah think it was discussed a few months ago to readjust beast Ganon's tiering and just add a new one to Link saying it'd be PIS / an outlier for him to beat full Triforce Ganon.


Small planet level based on what?


The base Master Sword already doesn't really have a limit to how strong it can get, Golden Sword isn't unique in that regard (Hell it's part of the Master Sword being able to become much stronger), but that doesn't mean we can slap a possibly scaling to the full Triforce for how it appeared in ALTTP just because of that.


3-A would be what Link would've been at the time of ALTTP's inital release since that's the highest level of power the Triforce showed at the time and due to the lore not being as fleshed out he would've had scaling to Ganon.

What makes me skeptical is that A Link to the Past is still fully canonical and foundational in Nintendo’s official timeline, if A Link Between Worlds were meant to retcon or “correct” it, ALttP would have been removed or recontextualized, which never happened. Instead, Nintendo consistently treats ALttP as the pinnacle of the Triforce era like the only instance where Ganon wields the complete Triforce WHILE continuously, sustaining the Dark World until his defeat. This feat is a narrative cornerstone of the franchise, also the idea of the hero succeding where the hero of time failed I guess?
ALttP is the game that establishes important things of the likes:
Ganon at his absolute peak and the Triforce as fully corrupted and misused, future games avoid this completely by having
fragment the Triforce, nintendo avoids repeating full-Triforce Ganon etc. I think that ALTTP Link scales in Attack Potency and Durability to Ganon wielding the complete Triforce. This is supported by direct combat feats, the Golden Sword functioning as a true AP amplifier (they reforge the blade for the power not more "anti evil durability ignoring power" or something), and the Moon Pearl preventing ambient Triforce suppression rather than granting hax-only victory. A way to justify this Link being stronger than AlBW one could be that he grows stronger by being challanged in a realm fully shaped and empowered by the Triforce, so he is forced to grow until he can survive it, so he reaches a maximum peak enabled by the Dark World exposure.

 

[Chariot190]

still it is true that ALBW Link had a level 3 golden sword + ToC so I do understand the idea of treating it as outlier instead of coming up with the so random idea Ganon wasn't using full triforce, I'd remove the justification under Ganon page then + I'd still argue that Link from ALTTP should scale to small planet level with the golden sword,

Ig you could argue Golden MS > OOT MS or some shit so maybe.
If you say it's equal to the ALBW one (I think maybe you can via encyclopedia?) you'd have a argument ig for tier 5 either way for being able to box a two piece Yuganon.

Also, why 3-A, doesn't Echoes of wisdom actually confirm tier 2?

3-A is what it would've been back at launch in the 90s (the whole dark world is a alt uni + it got warped has been a thing since JP launch). which back then obviously we didn't have a billion statements saying Link shouldn't be scaling to that shit so it was just "knight fought demon with 3-A amp" and it was taken at face value.

What makes me skeptical is that A Link to the Past is still fully canonical and foundational in Nintendo’s official timeline, if A Link Between Worlds were meant to retcon or “correct” it, ALttP would have been removed or recontextualized, which never happened. Instead, Nintendo consistently treats ALttP as the pinnacle of the Triforce era like the only instance where Ganon wields the complete Triforce WHILE continuously, sustaining the Dark World until his defeat. This feat is a narrative cornerstone of the franchise, also the idea of the hero succeding where the hero of time failed I guess?
ALttP is the game that establishes important things of the likes:
Ganon at his absolute peak and the Triforce as fully corrupted and misused, future games avoid this completely by having
fragment the Triforce, nintendo avoids repeating full-Triforce Ganon etc. I think that ALTTP Link scales in Attack Potency and Durability to Ganon wielding the complete Triforce. This is supported by direct combat feats, the Golden Sword functioning as a true AP amplifier (they reforge the blade for the power not more "anti evil durability ignoring power" or something), and the Moon Pearl preventing ambient Triforce suppression rather than granting hax-only victory. A way to justify this Link being stronger than AlBW one could be that he grows stronger by being challanged in a realm fully shaped and empowered by the Triforce, so he is forced to grow until he can survive it, so he reaches a maximum peak enabled by the Dark World exposure.

It's just a outlier for Link, it's obviously going to be canon and stay important, like Nintendo doesn't give a shit about powerscaling, that comes like 8th to them on the list of what matters (obviously it matters a lil bit, even EoW as a whole is basically "and here's why the Triforce and Triforce pieces are based" the game), but that doesn't detract the 30+ years of extra slop added on top that makes the notion of Link even having a snow ball's chance in hell against the complete Triforce actively narrative breaking with nothing but the MS.

The literal only argument that could be made is "Link beat him properly, he just avoided every single hit and exploited the evil neg facet of the MS on Ganon specifically", in which case yeah Link beating him wouldn't be a outlier, it'd be a skill+hax feat tho instead of a stat one, but you just argued you want it to be raw AP which kind of goes against the dozens of statements saying nothing in existence can rival the full might of the Triforce yap they've said dozens of times now throughout the years (tbh the fact they won't repeat the same scenario with full Triforce anything as you pointed out kind of exacerbates it too). It just doesn't add up.

There's no real feasible way this Link is > ALBW Link either, they both end up at the same end point, except one has the ToC too and besides that, have effectively the same amps across the board in one way or another. They both have the Golden Sword too, so we know that alone isn't pushing ALTP Link a infinite tier jump, and there's no way to actually justify "he fought demons in the dark world" as means to create such a tremendous jump in power when that's never even implied to be something that skyrocketed his power, it'd be pure headcanon to say that.
Plus, ALBW isn't even the main issue I even forgot about that bit till you brought it up, it's more like the dozens upon dozens of statements saying the full Triforce is unrivaled, whoever gets it can't be defeated, they'll have omnipotent unparalleled power, and a whole lot of other ones that all boil down to "nothing but the Golden Goddesses themselves are even in the same ballpark", the fact we know flatout the golden MS isn't enough to bridge that gap and the spirit of the hero ain't boxing it by itself, is besides the point at that point. Full Triforce just has to much stonks I fear.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Ig you could argue Golden MS > OOT MS or some shit so maybe.
If you say it's equal to the ALBW one (I think maybe you can via encyclopedia?) you'd have a argument ig for tier 5 either way for being able to box a two piece Yuganon.

3-A is what it would've been back at launch in the 90s (the whole dark world is a alt uni + it got warped has been a thing since JP launch). which back then obviously we didn't have a billion statements saying Link shouldn't be scaling to that shit so it was just "knight fought demon with 3-A amp" and it was taken at face value.

It's just a outlier for Link, it's obviously going to be canon and stay important, like Nintendo doesn't give a shit about powerscaling, that comes like 8th to them on the list of what matters (obviously it matters a lil bit, even EoW as a whole is basically "and here's why the Triforce and Triforce pieces are based" the game), but that doesn't detract the 30+ years of extra slop added on top that makes the notion of Link even having a snow ball's chance in hell against the complete Triforce actively narrative breaking with nothing but the MS.

The literal only argument that could be made is "Link beat him properly, he just avoided every single hit and exploited the evil neg facet of the MS on Ganon specifically", in which case yeah Link beating him wouldn't be a outlier, it'd be a skill+hax feat tho instead of a stat one, but you just argued you want it to be raw AP which kind of goes against the dozens of statements saying nothing in existence can rival the full might of the Triforce yap they've said dozens of times now throughout the years (tbh the fact they won't repeat the same scenario with full Triforce anything as you pointed out kind of exacerbates it too). It just doesn't add up.

There's no real feasible way this Link is > ALBW Link either, they both end up at the same end point, except one has the ToC too and besides that, have effectively the same amps across the board in one way or another. They both have the Golden Sword too, so we know that alone isn't pushing ALTP Link a infinite tier jump, and there's no way to actually justify "he fought demons in the dark world" as means to create such a tremendous jump in power when that's never even implied to be something that skyrocketed his power, it'd be pure headcanon to say that.
Plus, ALBW isn't even the main issue I even forgot about that bit till you brought it up, it's more like the dozens upon dozens of statements saying the full Triforce is unrivaled, whoever gets it can't be defeated, they'll have omnipotent unparalleled power, and a whole lot of other ones that all boil down to "nothing but the Golden Goddesses themselves are even in the same ballpark", the fact we know flatout the golden MS isn't enough to bridge that gap and the spirit of the hero ain't boxing it by itself, is besides the point at that point. Full Triforce just has to much stonks I fear.

I see your point and I do agree that overall it's not like nintendo is a powerscaler nerd, but one could that argue those statements about triforce are more of a mythological, hyperbolic to some extent or potential based nature, not literal combat absolutes, because otherwise ALttP simply could not exist at all?

The “skill + Master Sword evil-neg only” interpretation of course doesn’t hold as I have pointed out. The Golden Sword is explicitly reforged to be stronger, not to bypass durability or function as a pure hax tool, it wouldn't need the sword to be reforged if that was the case. I’m also not arguing full parity or omnipotence-matching, more like ALttP Link reaches the minimum level required to meaningfully contend with a Triforce-empowered reality. He doesn’t overpower the Triforce conceptually ,he withstands and overcomes its combat expression through Ganon. I guess the Moon Pearl ignores some wish-effects of the triforce itself? So it would mean it's the two things working together making it possible? ALttP shows Full triforce practical limits when filtered through a mortal wielder, if we remove the only on screen demonstration of full triforce in combat, how can we actually scale it? There is a fundamental difference between the triforce itself and the expression of it with a wielder, and Link scaling to that level is exactly what the game demonstrates tho. Statements describe what the Triforce can be but ALttP shows what it is, when used by Ganon, and it's not like Link destroyed the full triforce, just defeated the wielder.
The Triforce is omnipotent as a concept, not as a constant combat output.
In ALttP Link doesn’t fight the triforce itself, he fights Ganon, whose use of the Triforce is necessarily mediated and somehow "limitated" or he would just wish to rewrite the result of the fight or Link disappearing, but the good news is that the reality warping feat is not made by the divine concept itself (as sustaining more universes, which is the triforce itself feat), but a feat done by Ganon while being empowered by it so this is good news and it should apply IMO. What I mean is
this distinction matters because large-scale cosmological feats such as sustaining sacred realm, the normal universes and potentially other golden goddesses worlds belong to the Triforce as the itself divine principle. But, differently, the Dark World’s corruption and localized reality warping are feats performed by Ganon while empowered by the Triforce, and therefore this represents his manifested, usable output which can be used indeed to scale Link.

Link scaling to Ganon in this context does not mean scaling to the Triforce as a concept. It means scaling to the combat-applicable expression of its power as wielded by Ganon, which is exactly what ALttP depicts.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

@Dust_Collector sorry to bother, do u might have the jap text that makes clear null would destroy space time with full prime energy?

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

Is there a cosmology blog btw?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Is there a cosmology blog btw?

No.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Not really much of a reason to make one, counting the dimensions showed off in the series proper is cool and all but we already have a statement of the goddesses making millions of worlds that would include them, and nobody scales to the cosmology outside of them either unless you wanna go super high end for the complete Triforce / start of downfall timeline Ganon.

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh i wouldn't mind a cosmology blog if only to index. Maybe it can be used for the range of some abilities or hax, or just as set up to future proof.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It would really just be a list of different parallel universes. Only huge verses like DC or Marvel really need one.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Tbh i wouldn't mind a cosmology blog if only to index. Maybe it can be used for the range of some abilities or hax, or just as set up to future proof.

I guess setting it up for future proof wouldn't hurt

 

[Ser_Hakim_Dayne]

It would really just be a list of different parallel universes.

We can also include the creation myth.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

We can also include the creation myth.

That's where most of the parallel universes comes from.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Imo priority should still be linking the pages that correlates Ganon as actively warping dark world thanks to the manual statement + the Hyrule historia statement that chariot used to bring to prove he scaled to the full triforce. And, I am still of the idea that Golden Master sword and Silver arrows made the deal and that Link from alttp should scale to Ganon, even though ofc lower. This doesn't break established role, it's just someone scaling even thought it's weaker + using soul hax huge AP weapons like silver arrows to make the deal. I think full triforce doesn't grant constant wishes, but still Ganon displaying universe level feats while being empowered by full triforce exists, that's the manifestation of it. Accept the most experienced Link as the strongest one. Color ur hair pink for HIM.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Master Adventurer

Link vs Finn (The Legend of Zelda VS Adventure Time) -"Late Game" and "Season 10" Link and - Finn are being used. Finn has the Finn Sword. Equal speed. Battle takes place in the Mushroom kingdom. Hero of Ooo: Hero of Hyrule: Incon:

vsbattles.com

 

[MaskedDragon908]

Quick question: has anyone already calculated the weight of Dangoro (Twilight Princess), or the average Goron? Masked was going to try pixel-scaling Dangoro, but wanted to ask here first. It might be simpler to upscale him from other Gorons (and their pixel-scaling is currently awful). They also have the GameCube models from The Models Resource (spriters-resource), and Masked was under the impression that it is possible to obtain volume from loading the models into Blender.

They were originally just going to calculate the force required for him to snap the chains holding up the arena, but they were having trouble finding pictures of the chains, and that would only scale to him, so they will leave it on the backburner for now.

 

[TheGatememer]

Quick question: has anyone already calculated the weight of Dangoro (Twilight Princess), or the average Goron? Masked was going to try pixel-scaling Dangoro, but wanted to ask here first. It might be simpler to upscale him from other Gorons (and their pixel-scaling is currently awful). They also have the GameCube models from The Models Resource (spriters-resource), and Masked was under the impression that it is possible to obtain volume from loading the models into Blender.

They were originally just going to calculate the force required for him to snap the chains holding up the arena, but they were having trouble finding pictures of the chains, and that would only scale to him, so they will leave it on the backburner for now.

I could probably do that rq. Do we assume Gorons are completely made of rock?

UPDATE: (Ignore the screwed up textures from fixing the holes in the model)

In Blender, I found that their volume is around 0.9846 m^3, or 984600 cm^3. This is assuming an admittedly non-cited height of 7 ft, but it seemed around right. So, take that however you will.

 

[Nierre]

Ignore the screwed up textures from fixing the holes in the model

 

[MaskedDragon908]

I could probably do that rq. Do we assume Gorons are completely made of rock?

UPDATE: (Ignore the screwed up textures from fixing the holes in the model)

In Blender, I found that their volume is around 0.9846 m^3, or 984600 cm^3. This is assuming an admittedly non-cited height of 7 ft, but it seemed around right. So, take that however you will.

Thank you so much!
Masked is unsure about the density; they will probably end up having two ends. One for 100% rock, and one for 50% rock and 50% flesh.
They also presumably have something analogous to lungs, and some of them have air vents on their heads, but Masked will save that for later.
They will need to find some better height comparisons between Link and the Gorons.
Ganondorf and his 230 cm of height are really handy, so Masked is really thankful for his presence.

The current rough estimate is that Dangoro is 78.5% taller than the average Goron, with an approximate volume of 1.75765662557 cubic meters.
1.75765662557 x 2700 kg/m^3 = 4,745.67289 kg

and then the toss across the arena will require more scans as well
Link will probably end up scaling to the average Goron LS, since they can pluck Bomb Flowers that Child Link cannot, but Masked has always been curious about this feat.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Do I really have to make the thread and post myself all the evidences that ALLTP Link should scale to empowered Ganon who actively warps the dark world? The 1992 guide is super blant about it. Also about how the triforce empowers your magical might as well, so it scales. Omnipotent is the construct, not the wielder. Clear not PIS. Maybe I should tag some mods who are at the same time knowledgeble users and ask for an opinion and see if someone can make the threat in my place. It's like super important and a legit 3-A feat + evidence that it chanels that power into users, so it would make Ganon likely tier 2 with EoW evidences.

 

[Chariot190]

Do I really have to make the thread and post myself all the evidences that ALLTP Link should scale to empowered Ganon who actively warps the dark world? The 1992 guide is super blant about it. Also about how the triforce empowers your magical might as well, so it scales. Omnipotent is the construct, not the wielder. Clear not PIS. Maybe I should tag some mods who are at the same time knowledgeble users and ask for an opinion and see if someone can make the threat in my place. It's like super important and a legit 3-A feat + evidence that it chanels that power into users, so it would make Ganon likely tier 2 with EoW evidences.

Please do not. There is so much wrong with scaling Link to it, it simply doesn't work when looking at the greater whole.
Omnpotent "the construct" also isn't a argument, we're told explicitly, actually ironically, verbatim "he consolidated its omnipotent power into himself". One of many statements talking about Ganon's absorption, states he took the omnipotent aspect of it into himself as well. which he would anyway, like he knows how strong it is, his whole goal is take take all of its power, etc. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring the whole plot and even statements that just confirm he did anyway.

It gets even worse when Yuga straight up ruins any notion of that being consistent outright, not even implicitly (an even stronger Link than ALTTP Link is explicitly weaker than what a full Triforce Yuganon would be, and it takes LV3 MS, Light Arrows, and ToC to compete with Yuganon with only two of the parts, not the much greater whole, with it ALSO being stated he needs the ToC to actually contest him otherwise he'd straight up die and it's impossible, after already having the LV3 MS so the golden MS is not carrying that extra infinite gap).

There's like ten billion statements across other games but between just Triforce of the Gods, and Triforce of the Gods 2 (because yes, ALBW is the direct sequel in japan), there's major inconsistencies at play.

Now, do not get me wrong, the original slop from the game's launch does implicate scaling, in fact at the time Link would infact have ended up 3-A, (Ganon's 3-A feat still existed at the time obviously), but as the games went on, more info dropped, etc. that scaling became incoherent. Retroactive outlier. But as it currently is, it's PIS, a retroactive outlier, or maybe we can be generous and say the evil bane's aspect is just that cracked out if we want to give Link some sort of credit at face value.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Please do not. There is so much wrong with scaling Link to it, it simply doesn't work when looking at the greater whole.
Omnpotent "the construct" also isn't a argument, we're told explicitly, actually ironically, verbatim "he consolidated its omnipotent power into himself". One of many statements talking about Ganon's absorption, states he took the omnipotent aspect of it into himself as well. which he would anyway, like he knows how strong it is, his whole goal is take take all of its power, etc. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring the whole plot and even statements that just confirm he did anyway.

It gets even worse when Yuga straight up ruins any notion of that being consistent outright, not even implicitly (an even stronger Link than ALTTP Link is explicitly weaker than what a full Triforce Yuganon would be, and it takes LV3 MS, Light Arrows, and ToC to compete with Yuganon with only two of the parts, not the much greater whole, with it ALSO being stated he needs the ToC to actually contest him otherwise he'd straight up die and it's impossible, after already having the LV3 MS so the golden MS is not carrying that extra infinite gap).

There's like ten billion statements across other games but between just Triforce of the Gods, and Triforce of the Gods 2 (because yes, ALBW is the direct sequel in japan), there's major inconsistencies at play.

Now, do not get me wrong, the original slop from the game's launch does implicate scaling, in fact at the time Link would infact have ended up 3-A, (Ganon's 3-A feat still existed at the time obviously), but as the games went on, more info dropped, etc. that scaling became incoherent. Retroactive outlier. But as it currently is, it's PIS, a retroactive outlier, or maybe we can be generous and say the evil bane's aspect is just that cracked out if we want to give Link some sort of credit at face value.

I know that triforce of the gods 2 is a direct sequel, and the fact that it doesn't retcon the story should tell us something. Your list is legit, but how would you answer to the silver arrows? They act as the actual finisher needed (stated as such, needed) for Ganon, while the golden master sword is below and is used to struck Ganon, and I would not say that light arrows are comparable since they do the opposite, they usually work as strucking Ganon while normal MS usually is the finisher. There is also a consistency about how ToP Ganon needs 1 arrow to be finished, while Full Triforce needs 4 blows, they also have soul damage abilities confirmed. It doesn't sound contradictory to me, what contradicts silver arrows being this strong for example? Consider ALLTP had haxxes that me him invunerable, highest damage weapon in the franchinese that soul damages (silver arrows), upgraded master sword, and also even though the triforce is omnipotent you still got moon pearl that can act as a counter to it

Moon Pearl
People who enter the Dark World are transformed into a shape that reflects what is in their hearts. You can prevent this by obtaining the Moon Pearl, which protects its bearer from the power of the Triforce.

A Link to the Past & Four Swords Manual Description

Moon Pearl
This gem can control the power of the Triforce.

 

[Chariot190]

I know that triforce of the gods 2 is a direct sequel, and the fact that it doesn't retcon the story should tell us something.

That it's a direct sequel? You don't need to retcon shit to be an outlier. If it was retconned it wouldn't be an outlier, it'd no longer even exist.

Your list is legit, but how would you answer to the silver arrows?

Holy dura neg+soul damage which he's weak to?

They act as the actual finisher needed (stated as such, needed) for Ganon,

Holy dura neg+soul damage which he's weak to?

while the golden master sword is below and is used to struck Ganon, and I would not say that light arrows are comparable since they do the opposite, they usually work as strucking Ganon while normal MS usually is the finisher.

This doesn't matter, you're trying to scale the exact same iteration of the MS's AP to something infinitely stronger than something we know it can't one shot or tackle alone.

There is also a consistency about how ToP Ganon needs 1 arrow to be finished, while Full Triforce needs 4 blows,

Full Triforce is more than 4x stronger than ToP Ganon, the gap is literally over an infinite times.
Don't conflate early gameplay with lore either. Like you're hinging all your arguments off the first few games but ignoring you have over 40 years + hundreds of statements, to make this work with as well.

they also have soul damage abilities confirmed. It doesn't sound contradictory to me, what contradicts silver arrows being this strong for example?

You just gave a reason. Soul damage isn't AP. It's duraneg.
You legit just gave a perfect excuse to have Link not scale whatsoever, but still be capable of harming and defeating Ganon.

Consider ALLTP had haxxes that me him invunerable, highest damage weapon in the franchinese that soul damages (silver arrows), upgraded master sword,

You are not giving any reason that justifies that Link is secretly an infinite times stronger than he actually is, an infinite times stronger than characters ALREADY strong than him but WEAKER than the Ganon in question explicitly stated btw. You're just listing examples that would validate Link possibly winning without relying on stats, like invul to avoid being hit, offense that ignores durability and can kill even without scaling physically, etc.

and also even though the triforce is omnipotent you still got moon pearl that can act as a counter to it

A Link to the Past & Four Swords Manual Description

And? Moon Pearl doesn't effect AP, it doesn't effect stats either. All it does is make it so Link has super roided out resistance to magic, but that's technically not entirely true, we'll get to that, but even if it did. It doesn't act as an excuse or justification for stats. And if you did want to argue it did something, you'd be arguing the opposite of what you want, in that it voided Ganon's power and his ass fraudulent instead within the fight, so there'd be no scaling to cosmic slop for Link either way.

As an aside, the Japanese is much clearer in what's actually happening, the moon pearl acts as a conduit to channel and control TF's power, and because it can interact with its magic and control, it can also choose what it can or cannot effect. It's not a case of hierachy and "oh it's stronger", it's a specific artifact created to channel and tap into TF and attempt to harness it. Which, yeah ok? controlling TF's power is the entire point of it, it's designed to be controlled and harnessed by others, under no circumstances is that saying the MP > TF in power as the MP doesn't have any power by itself, it exists solely as a tool to interface with TF itself's magic.
This enables protection because basically just tell it not to. This isn't stats, this isn't even hax, this is an extremely niche interaction between it and a specific item.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

That it's a direct sequel? You don't need to retcon shit to be an outlier. If it was retconned it wouldn't be an outlier, it'd no longer even exist.

Holy dura neg+soul damage which he's weak to?

Holy dura neg+soul damage which he's weak to?

This doesn't matter, you're trying to scale the exact same iteration of the MS's AP to something infinitely stronger than something we know it can't one shot or tackle alone.

Full Triforce is more than 4x stronger than ToP Ganon, the gap is literally over an infinite times.
Don't conflate early gameplay with lore either. Like you're hinging all your arguments off the first few games but ignoring you have over 40 years + hundreds of statements, to make this work with as well.

You just gave a reason. Soul damage isn't AP. It's duraneg.
You legit just gave a perfect excuse to have Link not scale whatsoever, but still be capable of harming and defeating Ganon.

You are not giving any reason that justifies that Link is secretly an infinite times stronger than he actually is, an infinite times stronger than characters ALREADY strong than him but WEAKER than the Ganon in question explicitly stated btw. You're just listing examples that would validate Link possibly winning without relying on stats, like invul to avoid being hit, offense that ignores durability and can kill even without scaling physically, etc.

And? Moon Pearl doesn't effect AP, it doesn't effect stats either. All it does is make it so Link has super roided out resistance to magic, but that's technically not entirely true, we'll get to that, but even if it did. It doesn't act as an excuse or justification for stats. And if you did want to argue it did something, you'd be arguing the opposite of what you want, in that it voided Ganon's power and his ass fraudulent instead within the fight, so there'd be no scaling to cosmic slop for Link either way.

As an aside, the Japanese is much clearer in what's actually happening, the moon pearl acts as a conduit to channel and control TF's power, and because it can interact with its magic and control, it can also choose what it can or cannot effect. It's not a case of hierachy and "oh it's stronger", it's a specific artifact created to channel and tap into TF and attempt to harness it. Which, yeah ok? controlling TF's power is the entire point of it, it's designed to be controlled and harnessed by others, under no circumstances is that saying the MP > TF in power as the MP doesn't have any power by itself, it exists solely as a tool to interface with TF itself's magic.
This enables protection because basically just tell it not to. This isn't stats, this isn't even hax, this is an extremely niche interaction between it and a specific item.

I will be more precise with my implications, I do agree that the arrows are duraneg, but recquiring more than one arrow for full triforce ganon implies also some kind of resistence to soul damage or he wouldn't have needed 4 but the classic one like TOP ganon, which is my way of say the paid attention to this and they knew full triforce ganon would recquire more than ToP one.

Moon pearl doesn't affect AP, neither stats, it wasn't my argument, but if an object can interfere with the magic of the omnipotent triforce doesn't this show that it can be bypassed from an hax regard, so why would it be absurd if it can be defeated? The moment an object interferes with something called omnipotent and we take this statement as literal, then moon pearl shouldn't be able to bypass and alter the effects of a magic granted by the triforce. Am I wrong? Also the game it's the only one where we see the triforce wielded in combat as full, we are literally saying that the only showcase of the full triforce in combat is PIS, so we prefer an hypotethical never showed we imagine what it would be over what was literal shown?
It can be argued that the omnipotent statements are proven wrong instead of ignoring the only showed application of the full triforce in a fight because we take the statement as literal, and going by dark world feat instead.

 

[Chariot190]

I will be more precise with my implications, I do agree that the arrows are duraneg, but recquiring more than one arrow for full triforce ganon implies also some kind of resistence to soul damage or he wouldn't have needed 4 but the classic one like TOP ganon, which is my way of say the paid attention to this and they knew full triforce ganon would recquire more than ToP one.

Doesn't matter, that has nothing to do with stats or Link scaling. A stronger Ganon having better resistances or immortality has no bearing if Link is damaging him entirely by means of hax.

Link could be 11-A and still kill him if he hit him with some sort of instant kill duraneg, it's non-factor.

Also why do you think "they paid attention"? There was barely any cohesion yet back when the games came out, it takes multiple hits because that's how that was designed as a boss as one would be piss easy, not because of lore implications. Nintendo REALLY don't care about it that, it took them like 25y to start giving a shit.

Moon pearl doesn't affect AP, neither stats, it wasn't my argument, but if an object can interfere with the magic of the omnipotent triforce doesn't this show that it can be bypassed from an hax regard, so why would it be absurd if it can be defeated?

Because you're arguing he scales to Ganon statwise? You're not arguing he haxed Ganon so the fight is legit, like nobody is saying he didn't beat Ganon, but you're arguing he scales to 2-C because he beat him.
And you're using the Moon Pearl as some sort of an excuse or validation when theMoon Pearl wouldn't actually do anything except maybe weaken or impede Ganon's influence over it and thus make him weaker and thus Link wouldn't be scaling anyway.

But even that's a stretch, truth is it didn't do anything.

The moment an object interferes with something called omnipotent and we take this statement as literal, then moon pearl shouldn't be able to bypass and alter the effects of a magic granted by the triforce. Am I wrong?

A bit yeah, you're forgetting that the moon pearl and TF are both from the same debut game and all the funny triforce wank comes after. You're acting as if the verse didn't evolve over time, things change man.
Even worse, it doesn't interfere with it, it's a tool to make use of it itself. Which is intended. The Triforce's magic is literally meant to be manipulated, it does not mean it is weaker, the MP itself has no power of its own, it does not mean that the magic is being negated, you're missing the big gotcha here. The Moon Pearl isn't nullifying or negating its magic, it's making it so TF simply doesn't target Link to begin with.

Also the game it's the only one where we see the triforce wielded in combat as full, we are literally saying that the only showcase of the full triforce in combat is PIS, so we prefer an hypotethical never showed we imagine what it would be over what was literal shown?

Yes. Correct. The only game we see the Triforce wielded in full, is in fact a retroactive outlier when it's infinitely weaker non-combined might goes on to be a massive hurdle in every single game afterward, with every single aspect of these games clarifying the full might of it is completely incomparable and beyond anything else, including the eventual direct sequel were an even stronger Link that the Link you're arguing scales, explicitly can not combat even just two pieces using the same MS and needed his own piece to even the odds on top of all his other advantages. With the game then clarifying that the combined might of all 3 together would be impossible to take down.

Like why are you arguing this? Batman has beat the dogpiss out of Martian Manhunter before too, it happened, it's canon, but is it an outlier and contradicts every other framing? Sure doe, Batman isn't suddenly 2-C physically.

It can be argued that the omnipotent statements are proven wrong instead of ignoring the only showed application of the full triforce in a fight because we take the statement as literal, and going by dark world feat instead.

They aren't wrong when they're also shown to be true dozens of times, clarified in excessive detail in dozens of games and guides, and the only maybe excuse of "this Link just built diff fr" which would be a stretch, is shot down in its direct sequel where it makes a clear distinction and sets a cap at even two pieces being > Golden MS and shit by itself and ALSO needing a triforce piece to even the odds.

Like, you're arguing exclusively within that single game's frame of reference, but ignoring you can't do that anymore, you have to take it into account with 40+ years of yap and extra information and showings. Link WOULD have been 3-A if ALTTP was the final game, or it came out today, or back at launch, but now? It simply isn't the case, it's contradicted harder than FTL Sukuna.

 

[OrangeFR]

Chariot's points seem better to me honestly.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Doesn't matter, that has nothing to do with stats or Link scaling. A stronger Ganon having better resistances or immortality has no bearing if Link is damaging him entirely by means of hax.

Link could be 11-A and still kill him if he hit him with some sort of instant kill duraneg, it's non-factor.

Also why do you think "they paid attention"? There was barely any cohesion yet back when the games came out, it takes multiple hits because that's how that was designed as a boss as one would be piss easy, not because of lore implications. Nintendo REALLY don't care about it that, it took them like 25y to start giving a shit.

Because you're arguing he scales to Ganon statwise? You're not arguing he haxed Ganon so the fight is legit, like nobody is saying he didn't beat Ganon, but you're arguing he scales to 2-C because he beat him.
And you're using the Moon Pearl as some sort of an excuse or validation when theMoon Pearl wouldn't actually do anything except maybe weaken or impede Ganon's influence over it and thus make him weaker and thus Link wouldn't be scaling anyway.

But even that's a stretch, truth is it didn't do anything.

A bit yeah, you're forgetting that the moon pearl and TF are both from the same debut game and all the funny triforce wank comes after. You're acting as if the verse didn't evolve over time, things change man.
Even worse, it doesn't interfere with it, it's a tool to make use of it itself. Which is intended. The Triforce's magic is literally meant to be manipulated, it does not mean it is weaker, the MP itself has no power of its own, it does not mean that the magic is being negated, you're missing the big gotcha here. The Moon Pearl isn't nullifying or negating its magic, it's making it so TF simply doesn't target Link to begin with.

Yes. Correct. The only game we see the Triforce wielded in full, is in fact a retroactive outlier when it's infinitely weaker non-combined might goes on to be a massive hurdle in every single game afterward, with every single aspect of these games clarifying the full might of it is completely incomparable and beyond anything else, including the eventual direct sequel were an even stronger Link that the Link you're arguing scales, explicitly can not combat even just two pieces using the same MS and needed his own piece to even the odds on top of all his other advantages. With the game then clarifying that the combined might of all 3 together would be impossible to take down.

Like why are you arguing this? Batman has beat the dogpiss out of Martian Manhunter before too, it happened, it's canon, but is it an outlier and contradicts every other framing? Sure doe, Batman isn't suddenly 2-C physically.

They aren't wrong when they're also shown to be true dozens of times, clarified in excessive detail in dozens of games and guides, and the only maybe excuse of "this Link just built diff fr" which would be a stretch, is shot down in its direct sequel where it makes a clear distinction and sets a cap at even two pieces being > Golden MS and shit by itself and ALSO needing a triforce piece to even the odds.

Like, you're arguing exclusively within that single game's frame of reference, but ignoring you can't do that anymore, you have to take it into account with 40+ years of yap and extra information and showings. Link WOULD have been 3-A if ALTTP was the final game, or it came out today, or back at launch, but now? It simply isn't the case, it's contradicted harder than FTL Sukuna.

Agree to disagree I guess, Nintendo has retconned a lot of things and yet even "recent" works like Hyrule Historia actually provide us more evidences about the fight between ALTTP Link and Ganon, stating the fight lasted entire DAYS.

There is a retcon about how he wasn't defeated, as the game initially suggested, since you know I do agree they change things after decades, but they didn't really change the fact that a Link could face off for days against a being with the full triforce in his possesion. And it is also like a MAJOR point in the timeline, Ganon achieving the full triforce by defeating OOT Link is what made that downfall timeline to exist to begin with. And you know that is ridiculous? That we scale the Link who succeded in slaying that Ganon what? Large island level? Meanwhile OOT Link who FAILED is Low 5-B, isn't it clear that ALTTP Link should at very least scale to that Link? Actually above, should be. Also the site has possibly, and likely keys. We can scale ALTTP Link to At least 5-B, possibly Tier 3/2 whatever you want to scale Full triforce ganon to. The idea of ALTTP Link being weaker than OOT is crazy IMO. Also, honestly, the idea of blood moon sometimes being an illusion and other times being a legit moon pull is way more ambiguous than Link possibly scaling to a character he defeated because omnipotent statement taken literally, especially when you can make Link scaling lower while being in that tier at the same time, it's not contradictory and still, ALBW is kinda contradictory itself, if Link needs ToC against two pieces Yuganon it is also true that the game clearly portrays 3 pieces as well above 2, and STILL claims ALTTP Link WON over that Ganon. The anti-evil propriety shouldn't be an argument or we wouldn't scale any Link to Ganon, or most of them at least. Just checked and we do consider Zelda I Link possibly scaling higher because he defeated ToP Ganon, even though weakened by ToW, so I don't get what would be the problem with a possibly rating for ALTTP one.

 

[Chariot190]

Agree to disagree I guess,

I mean not really an option on the website were we index and you're trying to push for it and then just proceeded to continue arguing it. If you reply, I'm going to have to reply back.

Nintendo has retconned a lot of things and yet even "recent" works like Hyrule Historia actually provide us more evidences about the fight between ALTTP Link and Ganon, stating the fight lasted entire DAYS.

Do you really not know what an OUTLIER is? I'm actually asking, there seems to be a difference in our definitions of that word.

Nobody is saying the fight didn't happen, the fact the fight happened at all is WHY it's an outlier/PIS, at least, was, I'm liable to say Link beat him using hax and it's more a skill feat now.

That isn't Hyrule Historia either by the way, that's a statement from 2002, on the old Zelda Universe website, you're literally over a decade off; that predates:

• 2002 - The Wind Waker
• 2003 - Four Swords
• 2004 - Four Swords Adventures
• 2004 - The Minish Cap
• 2006 - Twilight Princess
• 2007 - Phantom Hourglass
• 2009 - Spirit Tracks
• 2011 - Skyward Sword
• 2013 - A Link Between Worlds
• 2015 - Tri Force Heroes
• 2017 - Breath of the Wild
• 2023 - Tears of the Kingdom
• 2024 - Echoes of Wisdom

Remakes / HD versions / collections in that span

• 2002 - A Link to the Past & Four Swords
• 2002 - Ocarina of Time Master Quest
• 2003 - Collector's Edition
• 2004 - Classic NES Series: The Legend of Zelda
• 2004 - Classic NES Series: Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
• 2011 - Ocarina of Time 3D
• 2011 - Four Swords Anniversary Edition
• 2013 - The Wind Waker HD
• 2015 - Majora's Mask 3D
• 2016 - Twilight Princess HD
• 2019 - Link's Awakening
• 2021 - Skyward Sword HD

Spin-offs / Zelda-linked side games

• 2007 - Link's Crossbow Training
• 2014 - Hyrule Warriors
• 2016 - Hyrule Warriors Legends
• 2018 - Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition
• 2019 - Cadence of Hyrule
• 2020 - Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• 2025 - Hyrule Warriors: Age of Imprisonment

Books and shit

• Hyrule Historia
• Zelda Encyclopedia
• Every 1st party guide with lore I'm not listing 50+.

Again, don't matter if Link beat him via hax and stats, but you have to reconcile your scaling with any potential contradictions from all of these other things, and sure some don't matter at all, like AoC obviously isn't effecting anything, but games like SS, ALBW, TP, EOW, and more do.

There is a retcon about how he wasn't defeated,

Nobody is saying he wasn't defeated. The problem is HOW. And if that how is internally consistent within the setting.

Soul dura negging is not AP. Holy duraneg is not AP. Shit that involves nulling his power is NOT AP.

You want to scale Link literally multiple infinites above something we know he's weaker than for a fact, but not just something he's weaker than, but literally something weaker than the thing you're trying to scale him to.

as the game initially suggested, since you know I do agree they change things after decades, but they didn't really change the fact that a Link could face off for days against a being with the full triforce in his possesion.

First off I'm pretty sure they actually did, they never mention it lasting days ever again, which byitself don't mean much, but I'm pretty sure a more a recent description of the fight has it mention it was set to the backdrop of a sunset? That doesn't matter though, you have a failure in understanding what an outlier or inconsistency is which seems to be the crux of this whole argument here.
The fight can happen, the fact the happened is what makes it an issue.

From what I can gather here, in your mind it only doesn't count if it never happened at all and was retconned, but that isn't how it works. This is why we have PIS, outliers, and more, to begin with, because shit CAN happen and still be wrong.

As said, would you argue Batman is actually 2-C statwise for harming characters we know he's actually infinitely weaker than with thousands of contradictory statements and examples? Those scenes still happened, they never got retconned, that doesn't change the fact they're inconsistent and wrong comparatively to the general standing and incoherent with other batches of information. Even worse here, you'd be arguing Batman would be 2-C for harming say, Superman, but he also used red suns, kryptonite, and magic all in one, inside a mecha suit, to harm him, ignoring those exploits nullify any means of scaling directly even if it wasn't an outlier/PIS.

Or hmm, ya know Zelda might have other examples too like start of game TOTK vs Ganon or Deku Link vs Majora.

And it is also like a MAJOR point in the timeline,

Doesn't matter dude, EVERY FINAL BOSS is a major point in the timeline. A stronger Link with stronger stuff being infinitely weaker than the full TF and only being relative to two pieces while having his own piece which he explicitly needed to even the gap and you spend half the game getting it otherwise it's impossible to win is also a major point in the timeline, and, is in fact, the culmination for that same throughline given it's a direct sequel.

Ganon achieving the full triforce by defeating OOT Link is what made that downfall timeline to exist to begin with.

No, Ganon defeating Link at all is what made the downfall timeline exist.
Him having TF is what made it so he literally could not be defeated because he was so powerful so they BFR'd his ass instead.

And you know that is ridiculous? That we scale the Link who succeded in slaying that Ganon what? Large island level?

Arguments from incredulity are not real arguments.

Isn't it ridiculous a piece of wood is like the strongest shit in the whole verse bar literal gods? A lil yeah, but it's still true.

Meanwhile OOT Link who FAILED is Low 5-B, isn't it clear that ALTTP Link should at very least scale to that Link?

Which one has ToC that we learn in the direct sequel is stronger than the MS by itself and everything ALTTP Link had?
Which Link is the Link that had to rely on soul damage to win instead of stats per your own scans and arguments?

No he shouldn't, because you've not just argued but even gave proof that ALTTP Link defeated Ganon by destroying/harming his soul, not because he boxed him, and even if he was, it's a contradiction to everything that came after.

Actually above, should be. Also the site has possibly, and likely keys. We can scale ALTTP Link to At least 5-B, possibly Tier 3/2 whatever you want to scale Full triforce ganon to.

Yeah possibly and likely for when it's actually a very good chance we just aren't 100% sure. That is not what's happening here.
You're taking the fact the fight was never retconned out of existence to mean it's legit, ignoring that Link had to hax him to win instead of relying on stats (literally even, you can not beat Ganon without soul damage, he never goes down no matter how many times you hit him), ignoring a whole other game showing us this:

Full Triforce >>> (greater than the sum of its parts/omnipotent compared to everything else in the setting in terms of magical output/literally explained in game that if Yuga got Link's he be outright invincible and drastically stronger than he already was) > Yuganon with ToP and ToW =~ Link with LV3 Master Sword, Light Arrows, and ToC (the latter of which is made a point he needed it otherwise he simply would not be powerful enough or ave the means to defeat Yuga with what he had) >>> LV3 Master Sword by itself because game literally goes out of its way to say that isn't enough to rival two, you need one too ALTTP Link.

You are outright trying to ignore the whole plot of another game, for a single beat in one that came 30 years prior. While ignoring the literal thousands of other statements and showings to the contrary that it'd be feasible to raw box the full TF.

The idea of ALTTP Link being weaker than OOT is crazy IMO.

Arguments from incredulity are not real arguments nor sufficient proof.
OOT Link has the ToC, plus 6x amp, and direct scaling to other incarnations.

Also, honestly, the idea of blood moon sometimes being an illusion and other times being a legit moon pull is way more ambiguous than Link possibly scaling to a character he defeated because omnipotent statement taken literally,

Uh, no it isn't, because that idea is wrong because they explicitly state in game like a dozen times it's the real moon? Headcanon is not a real argument, especially when the games state otherwise. They literally verbatim states it's the moon itself being effected.

especially when you can make Link scaling lower while being in that tier at the same time,

You can't actually because of IW. Ganon has that feat and then later in the game the squad is fighting him, goes "we're doing it, we're gonna win!", then nope he's just screwing with them, he's never gone all out before, we're told he was holding back and then stomps them to the point they literally start crashing out because they're so screwed and don't have a chance in hell.
Link > Full Power Ganon > the Ganon that moged them > the squad including Rarui > Ganon doing the feats.

Link doesn't just scale, he upscales now, assuming you're talking about the 5-A Link.

Unless you mean Majora moondrop? That's just straightforward af.

it's not contradictory and still, ALBW is kinda contradictory itself, if Link needs ToC against two pieces Yuganon it is also true that the game clearly portrays 3 pieces as well above 2, and STILL claims ALTTP Link WON over that Ganon.

Nope because Link also had a bunch of help there too to offset, any single fact alone would not have been enough.
You're missing the entire point.

If a stronger Link needed the the same Master Sword on crack, needed holy dura neg, and explicitly a piece of the Triforce himself to have a chance at defeating Yuganon because otherwise it'd be impossible.

There is no world where you can argue that a Link who relied on soulfuckery scales to a Ganon that is infinitely stronger than a character that is stronger by an explicitly uncontestable amount than the Link you're trying to argue scales to in raw stats.

The anti-evil propriety shouldn't be an argument or we wouldn't scale any Link to Ganon, or most of them at least.

It is an argument?
We also just know the anti-evil shit isn't an end all, be all, with the MS, in most cases, and we also know the MS amps people to its level, and we also know its stronger than most things because we have a direct statement.

Like, you know most Link's don't scale off Ganon right? What's actually happening is they're scaling off other shit like, for example, the MS > FS. And the FS > Vaati who is Large Island Level. That chain ignores the anti-evil fuckery entirely. This is the case for most of it.

You're somehow arguing that every other Link shouldn't be scaling ignores how most Link's don't scale via Ganon regardless, bar exceptions where it's literally shown like TP Link physically overpowering Ganon in a contest of raw power, but even worse, doesn't justify the outright excessive amount of contradictions to your MULTIPLE infinite stat leap that is shut down by multiple other games.

Just checked and we do consider Zelda I Link possibly scaling higher because he defeated ToP Ganon, even though weakened by ToW, so I don't get what would be the problem with a possibly rating for ALTTP one.

There's a huge difference between a possibly higher when you're already in the same finite threshold and have back up statements due to White Sword yap being a single step below the MS, all while it still being dubious enough it's only a possibly, and scaling to something we know is infinitely stronger than something incontestable to something stronger than you.

Like I don't know what you want from me, do I really need to sped like a week gathering the literal, and I'm not joking here, the actual hundreds to thousands of statements and showings that shoot down this, and then go in depth to the blatant ALBW example, and then further exacerbate this by showing ALTTP Link's stated method for defeating that Ganon is through duraneg anyway so he wouldn't scale anyway.

Like I'm sorry dude but all you've actually done here is show ALTTP Link beat him via soul hax (which lines up with gameplay even as you can't kill him no matter what without it, even with LV3 MS), and also pointed out Moon Pearl and Invul stuff would make it even less worthy of stat scaling.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Or hmm, ya know Zelda might have other examples too like start of game TOTK vs Ganon or Deku Link vs Majora.

but there it's made clear that story wise this doesn't happen, we know Link canonically uses fierce deity etc.

OOT Link has the ToC, plus 6x amp, and direct scaling to other incarnations.

ALTTP LInk should direct scale to that Link, since he succeded where the other got completely stomp from the same Ganon he defeated.

Uh, no it isn't, because that idea is wrong because they explicitly state in game like a dozen times it's the real moon?

for some reason I am sure that someone here told me tho that the bloody moon we see in the finale against dragon ganon is for some reason an illusion.

TP Link physically overpowering Ganon in a contest of raw power,

In fact I said "most" Links, TP Link is a clear example of someone who scales ofc, I had it in my mind while typing the word most

stuff would make it even less worthy of stat scaling.

I mean the sword is needed to hurt him before using the arrows, so the sword should scale to Ganon if you remove the PIS/Outlier argument (alongside ALBW scaling chain) from this, you know it is a stretch to claim Link dodged and did nothing except shooting that arrows especially when sharpening the sword was something kind of recquired to face him (at least in lore, Ik you can fight him with normal MS, but that is like deku Link and fierce deity thing mentioned above).
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Time to use the gramps doesn't wield triforce and can kick ALBW link's butt as an argument /joking

I could use the golden master sword was made in two different ways argument but I give up, and I believe and it makes sense to claim they are meant to be comparable even though they were made differently. But, I don't really give up on ALTTP Link scaling above OOT one, since OOT Link got completely stomped. All the abilities you want, nothing contradicts the idea of golden master sword being above single wielder of triforce itself if albw just tells u golden master sword + triforce is needed for 2 pieces user.