Fundamental aspects of Black Clover / Part 1 of 5 (Mana is a smurf 1-A)

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Didn't address my points, just brought up more nonsense that you made up for BDE Type 3 trying to take me on another tangent where I have to explain to you that qualitative superiority for 1A requires them to not exist in a non-1A realm, though I have said, and proved, this multiple times in the thread already.



It is a given that 1A isn't affected by anything from a lower tier, it's a standard that the causallity manip of a non-1A wouldn't work on you, like any other non-1A ability, unless you're trying to give her 1A Acausality (which you hopefully aren't)

I'm not avoiding your points, but rather the opposite; I'm trying to bring you back to reality. You're getting too lost in the Wiki's terminology and not seeing things as they really work. Immaterial/incorporeal things already exist in a system/world/realm/plane, whatever "term" you use, of a nature/quality different from ours. Abilities like NEP, BDE, and AE are types of incorporeality. How they fit into the Wiki is just a matter of context presented in the verse. You continue to think that BDE is a type of cosmological superiority as if it were necessary to exist "outside the world," as if it were beyond a dimensional barrier, when the very definition of the ability says that a difference in "physical composition" is necessary.

Furthermore, while dimensional structures are always material composites, which can be divided into different parts and be expressed as the sum of these parts, undimensioned characters have no parts whatsoever, not being composite beings in any physical sense. Indeed, although a 0-dimensional point has no spatial parts which it can be divided into, even it can still serve as a part of a larger spatial composite, whereas undimensioned beings cannot.

 

[Exoko]

I'm not avoiding your points, but rather the opposite; I'm trying to bring you back to reality. You're getting too lost in the Wiki's terminology and not seeing things as they really work. Immaterial/incorporeal things already exist in a system/world/realm/plane, whatever "term" you use, of a nature/quality different from ours. Abilities like NEP, BDE, and AE are types of incorporeality. How they fit into the Wiki is just a matter of context presented in the verse. You continue to think that BDE is a type of cosmological superiority as if it were necessary to exist "outside the world," as if it were beyond a dimensional barrier, when the very definition of the ability says that a difference in "physical composition" is necessary.

It seems that you don't understand the terminology yourself lol.
If you're confused about something you can just speak up, the cat don't bite.

I'll only address the relevant part of this (everything after 'You continue to think'),


Here is the requirement for BDE Type 3,

Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality.

And here is the argument against being above the bolded part,

• Being 'above differentiation' means that is has no parts(spatial, temporal etc)
• Mana can be denser in certain areas, can cover an area, can float
• All of those require spatial extension
• Mana has spatial extension

Conclusion:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Mana is not above differentiation.

Do you want me to add scans to this? You've already got them all in the OP & I'm kinda lazy but if you ask for it I'll add them in again.

also nice joke

I'm trying to bring you back to reality

but we're gonna stay outside of reality for tis one
Ontologically surpassing all contents of a lower reality, being above differentiation yada yada means that they simply cannot exist in that space, since it directly contradicts the requirements.
You either have to exist in a higher reality that has its own notion of dimensionality or one that is still a higher reality but does not have it's own dimensionality.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

No he says that because they can interact with concepts at all??? If they were dissolving the spell with "Devil Acid Magic" or something it wouldn't change much of what actually shocked him which is then interacting with a spell that doesn't physically exist by virtue of being capable of interacting with concepts.

Yes, it's a matter of NPI, but Nacht emphasizes that it's impressive because of the type of magic they possess, so much so that he says, "They burn everything and freeze everything, even shadow and light... even invisible concepts." The same panel also highlights their type of magic, showing that what's impressive isn't just the NPI itself, but the NPI combined with their magic.

And something that is very possible in many verses with basic healing magic or powers from different verses [even hard Sci-Fi shit intrinsically bound by conventional physics].

The impossibility of doing it without forbidden magic is just a showing for how limited baseline healing magic in Black Clover is, not that there's some "Logical truth" being broken by virtue of being capable of healing a severed limb.

How it works for the other verses doesn't matter; the first link I provided serves exactly for your interpretation. DontTalkDT says in its first rule:

If some statement A is explicitely written in a fiction f, then A is true in f.

If in other verses someone can use healing magic to recover from an existential erasure of all their fundamental aspects, it doesn't matter; what matters is how Black Clover treats healing magic and its logical limitations with explicit statements.

Also again not relevant or applicable in general.

This right here just kind of makes my point for me, you take the use of the word "Impossible" as harshly literal as possible in that you railroad it into being something like ******* with laws or physics when that's not the case.

Charmy has two ******* magic types by simple virtue of just being bi-racial [Half Human/Half Dwarf]... Tell me did her parents doing the devil's tango to conceive her constitute Forbidden Magic by LITERAL breaking of the words laws/ logic?

Or is it more likely that you are just being extra-ultra-super hyperbolic with the mention of something being "Impossible".

The word "impossible" is referential, inherent limited by the knowledge available to the character or things it's in reference to.

Klaus explicitly states that it's a rule that wizards cannot have two magical attributes.



So yes, it's impossible because it breaks laws, and that's not my interpretation but an explicit statement in the work.

Unlike Charmmy, who has blood from two races, Mars is someone who was modified in a laboratory with forbidden magic; the stone on his forehead is a forbidden magic symbol. You're bringing different contexts to different situations.

Edit:

just wanted to say stop with this bullsh*t here:

These words—"form" being nothing more than the "shapes/form ideas—do not leave that woman's mouth or anyone's mouth.

You are literally just inserting stuff not said by anyone or present in any statement and coming to conclusions based of it.

it's fine if you don't want to agree with me, but if you're going to make a rebuttal, at least read the OP. I explain in the CM section why the "shape" that Charlotte declares and the "ideal shape" that Mereoleona declares are correlated in the same context, which is mana.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Yes, it's a matter of NPI, but Nacht emphasizes that it's impressive because of the type of magic they possess, so much so that he says, "They burn everything and freeze everything, even shadow and light... even invisible concepts." The same panel also highlights their type of magic, showing that what's impressive isn't just the NPI itself, but the NPI combined with their magic.

He emphasis that they affect concepts, stop being willfully obtuse.

Nacht isn't emphasising being impressed by their magic type, he is emphasising the effect of interacting with concepts which is why he specifically calls the act of interacting with his immaterial spell "Impossible" before going ahead to explain how that occured.

He is impressed by the NPI itself and you are being willfully ignorant for the sake of maintaining clearly stupid argument.

How it works for the other verses doesn't matter; the first link I provided serves exactly for your interpretation. DontTalkDT says in its first rule:
If in other verses someone can use healing magic to recover from an existential erasure of all their fundamental aspects, it doesn't matter; what matters is how Black Clover treats healing magic and its logical limitations with explicit statements.

Yes it infact does.

Healing from limb severance is not some logical rule of the black clover verse, you are just erroneously attributing a degree of complete literalness to any use of the word "impossible" you see despite how dumb this argument ultimately is.

No there is no ******* "Logical Rule" dictating that healing severed limbs is literally impossible and using Forbidden Magic to do such is not some transgression against said law. The use of the term is wholly superfluous to the knowledge of the character relevant to it and you are just stubbornly refusing to read like a normal person because you are desperate to upgrade this verse by any means necessary.

Klaus explicitly states that it's a rule that wizards cannot have two magical attributes.

Again "Impossible" is a relative term to the speaker and his limits knowledge is not an indication of there being done "Logical Rule" dictating anything.

Unlike Charmmy, who has blood from two races, Mars is someone who was modified in a laboratory with forbidden magic; the stone on his forehead is a forbidden magic symbol. You're bringing different contexts to different situations.

Don't erroneously gloss over Charmy when you can't address it.

But your own idiotic argument, Charmy is breaking some logical rule or law by virtue of just being conceived.

Is her fathers **** or mother's womb now breaking logic because the act of conception granted her two magic types?

You are incapable of addressing the fact that Charmy had two attributes by simple virtue of being born bi-racial which completely destroys the notion that the "Impossibility" of it is due to some logical rule rather then just a common understanding of magic attributes being found to not be absolute and have exceptions.

Stop trying to side step this glaring hole in your obviously dubious argument.

it's fine if you don't want to agree with me, but if you're going to make a rebuttal, at least read the OP. I explain in the CM section why the "shape" that Charlotte declares and the "ideal shape" that Mereoleona declares are correlated in the same context, which is mana.

The Op is dog shit, sorry there's no two ways about it.

It and your arguments going forward can best be summed up as willful ignorance bordering on psychotic delusion, a complete disregard for basic reading comprehension and a clear agenda with no room for anything not taken to the most hyperbolic extreme.

The OP is as irrelevant and poorly thought out as your current arguments.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

He emphasis that they affect concepts, stop being willfully obtuse.

Nacht isn't emphasising being impressed by their magic type, he is emphasising the effect of interacting with concepts which is why he specifically calls the act of interacting with his immaterial spell "Impossible" before going ahead to explain how that occured.

He is impressed by the NPI itself and you are being willfully ignorant for the sake of maintaining clearly stupid argument.


Yes it infact does.

Healing from limb severance is not some logical rule of the black clover verse, you are just erroneously attributing a degree of complete literalness to any use of the word "impossible" you see despite how dumb this argument ultimately is.

No there is no ******* "Logical Rule" dictating that healing severed limbs is literally impossible and using Forbidden Magic to do such is not some transgression against said law. The use of the term is wholly superfluous to the knowledge of the character relevant to it and you are just stubbornly refusing to read like a normal person because you are desperate to upgrade this verse by any means necessary.

Again "Impossible" is a relative term to the speaker and his limits knowledge is not an indication of there being done "Logical Rule" dictating anything.


Don't erroneously gloss over Charmy when you can't address it.

But your own idiotic argument, Charmy is breaking some logical rule or law by virtue of just being conceived.

Is her fathers **** or mother's womb now breaking logic because the act of conception granted her two magic types?

You are incapable of addressing the fact that Charmy had two attributes by simple virtue of being born bi-racial which completely destroys the notion that the "Impossibility" of it is due to some logical rule rather then just a common understanding of magic attributes being found to not be absolute and have exceptions.

Stop trying to side step this glaring hole in your obviously dubious argument.


The Op is dog shit, sorry there's no two ways about it.

It and your arguments going forward can best be summed up as willful ignorance bordering on psychotic delusion, a complete disregard for basic reading comprehension and a clear agenda with no room for anything not taken to the most hyperbolic extreme.

The OP is as irrelevant and poorly thought out as your current arguments.

Ok,

 

[Maniaunavailable]

What?


Okay, while this isn't anything rule breaking, let stop this kind of comment

hei viett, this thread has already 3 staff that disagree, what else is needed?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Because it doesn't exist.

It's contingent on stitching together wholly unrelated statement and moment in the series.

Morris doesn't even have the same devil power from being possessed by lucifero that let him interact with concepts after he gets folded in the spade arc and his purified devil power in the Finally arc is a different effect with 0 mention of that same capability (Both are being conflated to construct this frankenstein sentence)

Morris's magic was at its peak in the fight against Mereoleona, as he managed to overcome the laws of nature, unlike when he received an upgrade from Lucifero.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

It seems that you don't understand the terminology yourself lol.
If you're confused about something you can just speak up, the cat don't bite.

I'll only address the relevant part of this (everything after 'You continue to think'),


Here is the requirement for BDE Type 3,

And here is the argument against being above the bolded part,

• Being 'above differentiation' means that is has no parts(spatial, temporal etc)
• Mana can be denser in certain areas, can cover an area, can float
• All of those require spatial extension
• Mana has spatial extension

Conclusion:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Mana is not above differentiation.

Do you want me to add scans to this? You've already got them all in the OP & I'm kinda lazy but if you ask for it I'll add them in again.

also nice joke

but we're gonna stay outside of reality for tis one
Ontologically surpassing all contents of a lower reality, being above differentiation yada yada means that they simply cannot exist in that space, since it directly contradicts the requirements.
You either have to exist in a higher reality that has its own notion of dimensionality or one that is still a higher reality but does not have it's own dimensionality.

Your interpretation contradicts what is shown in the verse. There is no statement that says "mana has spatial extension" or anything that suggests this. It is directly shown that without extrasensory perception and an inherent connection to its existence, you cannot even feel mana. Things like "density of mana," "mana floating," and "weight of mana" are metaphysical values, not real physical measurements, because mana doesn't have a "physical body to dismantle," meaning it is immaterial/Incorporeality, now show me where mana density means "having more weight," or show that "mana extends over an area" in a physical way. So far in the series, we've only seen the "physical form" of mana twice, and in both instances it was treated as an incorporeal/immaterial aspect: when Yuno lost his senses in chapter 28 and now in chapter 371 when Mereoleona loses her physical body.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Morris's magic was at its peak in the fight against Mereoleona, as he managed to overcome the laws of nature, unlike when he received an upgrade from Lucifero.

The difference between the effect he got from Lucifero and what he got from the purified devil power are qualitative.

He literally can't even use the modification aspect of his magic while he was a paladin while he could not only modify things but also influence concepts while with Lucifero Possession.

Provide a single scan of him saying he can or is influencing concepts when he's in his Paladin state or showing actually use the modification aspect of his Magic.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

The difference between the effect he got from Lucifero and what he got from the purified devil power are qualitative.

He literally can't even use the modification aspect of his magic while he was a paladin while he could not only modify things but also influence concepts while with Lucifero Possession.

Provide a single scan of him saying he can or is influencing concepts when he's in his Paladin state or showing actually use the modification aspect of his Magic.

All the magic improvements in Black Clover are of "quality", especially since the battles are between the natures of their magical abilities and their AP , Durability and even speed are based on the nature of someone's magic. The return of Light magic at the end of the series, which threw the entire FTL scale into limbo, shows this. Dorothy's magic, which allows her to create an infinite space (H3-A), even though it's not god-tier in the verse, demonstrates this. Characters like Langris, Julius, Secre, Vanessa, Grey, and many others who improved their magic many times throughout the series but don't even have a defined AP due to the nature of their magic, show this.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

All the magic improvements in Black Clover are of high quality, especially since the battles are between the natures of their magical abilities and their AP (Action Points). Durability and even speed are based on the nature of someone's magic. The return of Light magic at the end of the series, which threw the entire FTL (Full Throttle Time) scale into limbo, shows this. Dorothy's magic, which allows her to create an infinite space (H3-A), even though it's not god-tier in the verse, demonstrates this. Characters like Langris, Julius, Secre, Vanessa, Grey, and many others who improved their magic many times throughout the series but don't even have a defined AP due to the nature of their magic, show this.

All im seeing is worthless yap that has 0 correlation with Morris and not a single scan of what I requested.

Stat boosts have no correlation or relevance to the topic at hand, which is that Morris Magic fundamentally has different capabilities when he's possessed by Lucifero or granted the purified power of a random different devil.

Creating an infinite space with hax has 0 correlation with personal potency of normal attacks.

Improving your magic by various different and unrelated means across different character with different types of magic are irrelevant.

Post the requested scan or stop yapping aimlessly

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

All im seeing is worthless yap that has 0 correlation with Morris and not a single scan of what I requested.

Stat boosts have no correlation or relevance to the topic at hand, which is that Morris Magic fundamentally has different capabilities when he's possessed by Lucifero or granted the purified power of a random different devil.

Creating an infinite space with hax has 0 correlation with personal potency of normal attacks.

Improving your magic by various different and unrelated means across different character with different types of magic are irrelevant.

Post the requested scan or stop yapping aimlessly

I have no control over your interpretation; if you don't want to understand the point you yourself make in your arguments, nothing in the world can change that, and there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[Exoko]

Your interpretation contradicts what is shown in the verse. There is no statement that says "mana has spatial extension" or anything that suggests this. It is directly shown that without extrasensory perception and an inherent connection to its existence, you cannot even feel mana. Things like "density of mana," "mana floating," and "weight of mana" are metaphysical values, not real physical measurements, because mana doesn't have a "physical body to dismantle," meaning it is immaterial/Incorporeality, now show me where mana density means "having more weight," or show that "mana extends over an area" in a physical way. So far in the series, we've only seen the "physical form" of mana twice, and in both instances it was treated as an incorporeal/immaterial aspect: when Yuno lost his senses in chapter 28 and now in chapter 371 when Mereoleona loses her physical body.

Incorporeality != No Space
No physicals != No space
It literally says in your scans that it exists over an area.
And for the other density part, maybe look at what density means, no need to act this dumb.
Simply floating requires a position relative to something, again showing spatial qualities.
All that metaphysical nonsense is just made up
You’ve been associating random unrelated stuff together a lot in this thread, you aren’t going to get far with this so just stop it.

or anything that suggests this.

Now you apparently don’t know what space means, or what volume means, or density, or physical…

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay everyone, let's all take a few deep breaths and try to approach this more calmly, okay?

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Okay everyone, let's all take a few deep breaths and try to approach this more calmly, okay?

I agree, staff already came and said they do not agree, so shouldnt we go from there?

 

[Hypertornado099]

Is there a point in discussing this any further?

 

[Excellence616]

Nope

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Just close this lmao it’s already disagreed by staff and obviously no others will be persuaded by very blatant wank

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Incorporeality != No Space
No physicals != No space
It literally says in your scans that it exists over an area.
And for the other density part, maybe look at what density means, no need to act this dumb.
Simply floating requires a position relative to something, again showing spatial qualities.
All that metaphysical nonsense is just made up
You’ve been associating random unrelated stuff together a lot in this thread, you aren’t going to get far with this so just stop it.



Now you apparently don’t know what space means, or what volume means, or density, or physical…

Incorporeality is spaceless by definition, that's what I've been trying to tell you from the beginning. The authors aren't basing this on pages from the Wiki vs. Battle. Of course, I'm not saying that every incorporeal being in fiction should receive BDE type 3, but depending on the context it could very well mean that. BDE is an ability of "indivisibility" over physical composition;

Furthermore, while dimensional structures are always material composites, which can be divided into different parts and be expressed as the sum of these parts, undimensioned characters have no parts whatsoever, not being composite beings in any physical sense. Indeed, although a 0-dimensional point has no spatial parts which it can be divided into, even it can still serve as a part of a larger spatial composite, whereas undimensioned beings cannot.

type 3 is when this "indivisibility" comes from transcending "physical composition."

Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality

This exposes Tabata's intention with Morris's statement "SHE HAS NO PHYSICAL BODY TO DISMANTLE" (indivisibility), "HER BODY'S COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED INTO MANA? TRANSCENDING PHYSICAL FORM" (transcendence of the physical body).

 

[Vietthai96]

Incorporeality is spaceless by definition

No, it isn't, even the site you linked said nothing about Incorporeality is spaceless, also, you should know that space and time are also incorporeal but still possesses physical quantity. So saying Incorporeality means you are lacking material composition, even space-time is bad logic

Anyway i disagree with this thread, pretty much all the arguments are just extrapolation of something that can be easily explained with a more simple and normal reasoning

 

[Exoko]

No, it isn't, even the site you linked said nothing about Incorporeality is spaceless, also, you should know that space and time are also incorporeal but still possesses physical quantity. So saying Incorporeality means you are lacking material composition, even space-time is bad logic

Anyway i disagree with this thread, pretty much all the arguments are just extrapolation of something that can be easily explained with a more simple and normal reasoning

Are you gonna close this?

 

[Electronic74947]

This should be closed

 

[Vietthai96]

Since this thread got overwhelming disagreement from many normal members and staff, i will close this