Veldanava Key Divisison - [TenSura LN]

[Astral_Trinity439]

The reason?? No, no—the important thing is to put my name on the list of those who disagree. I will mention the reason someday, because today I am busy.

I dismiss by nuh uh

@MakeitaQuote

Not discord bro
Become a diamond supporter and suggest its addition

 

[Cipher72]

Not discord bro

Damm couldn't tell by the conversation.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Damm couldn't tell by the conversation.

hahha

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Snip

Not asking you to discuss further (tho you can if you wanna), but could you clarify your current stance on the durability thing? So your vote can be added:

Agree: @Astral_Trinity439, @Dark_Soul20189, @K'rimuru, @MetaChronos, @PHANtomFELdway, @Ultimuru, @DrunkMan04, @AlexSamDen, @Sebas-S.P-san, @Cipher72, @Re5yh, @korea1234 , @Vesxpura , @Lycoris4812 , @Astral_void4 , @PrimeHydra64
Disagree:
Neutral:

If possible, please also add options if you disagree with only certain parts (like Agree with everything else, disagree/neutral on X)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not asking you to discuss further (tho you can if you wanna), but could you clarify your current stance on the durability thing? So your vote can be added:

If possible, please also add options if you disagree with only certain parts (like Agree with everything else, disagree/neutral on X)

I'll comment on this tomorrow or Sunday.
Just put me under neutral for now.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'll comment on this tomorrow or Sunday.
Just put me under neutral for now.

Sure, I'll ask Ciel that when we wakes up
Gn

(In case any mod comes while I'm sleeping, yeh my next reply won't be any dooker than 10 hours)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

(In case any mod comes while I'm sleeping, yeh my next reply won't be any dooker than 10 hours)

Quick! Mods, hit him with a Disagreement FRA train while he is asleep!

 

[BoastJr]

I agree with this CRT for azerty's reasonings above

 

[Elizhaa]

The changes largely look fine; though, I would say add the reference like volume title and chapter number for key evidences like scans.

 

[BoastJr]

I agree with this CRT for elizhaa's reasonings above

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The changes largely look fine; though, I would say add the reference like volume title and chapter number for key evidences like scans.

The Fandom sandbox does have all the exact references
Ciel likely forgot to add the scans on the forum, but that shouldn't be a problem as long as people read the sandbox as well

 

[Community_Gamer]

I agree with tiering and the ability differences, although more specifications are needed that lost all his skills but can use Law Manipulation and Administrative Authority to recreate their affects.

I agree with key division as well.

However I disagree with the wording or justification for Intelligence. Either say Veldanava had Raphael or explain specifically why's he's superior.

And I obviously disagree with justification with durability. Ivarage and Rimuru can't be comparable (and by virtue Veldanava) yet Rimuru gets obliterated yet Ivarage tanks without some external factors. It makes no sense. I've already gone into detail earlier.

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree with the CRT

 

[Random-Helper323]

I agree with Elizhaa's suggestions about references.

CRT looks fine at this point.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I agree with tiering and the ability differences, although more specifications are needed that lost all his skills but can use Law Manipulation and Administrative Authority to recreate their affects.

I agree with key division as well.

However I disagree with the wording or justification for Intelligence. Either say Veldanava had Raphael or explain specifically why's he's superior.

Updated in the sandbox. Will ask Ciel to update in the OP too

And I obviously disagree with justification with durability. Ivarage and Rimuru can't be comparable (and by virtue Veldanava) yet Rimuru gets obliterated yet Ivarage tanks without some external factors. It makes no sense. I've already gone into detail earlier.

Well, about all this.

First off, Rimuru doesn't get Durability. Even if he did survive, based off the fact that he was equalling Veldanava and Ivarage later, it wouldn't be cuz of dura but hax. Essentially his "Void Collapse", which is a power null hax on steroids. It can cancel all the other powers or attacks in-verse:

Spoiler

　目下、ヴェルザードは盲目的に暴れ狂っているが、被害は出ていない。
俺の『虚無崩壊』で戦場全体を包み込む事で、全ての攻撃を無効化させているからだ。
　なので安心して、戦力の再編制を任せられるというものだった。
　だが、このままという訳にはいかない。
今はいいが、ヴェルザードの動きがどんどん活発化しているからだ。
「それで、ギィ。ヴェルザード様を正気に戻すのに、どのくらいの時間を必要とするのですか？」
　ディアブロからの質問を受けて、ギィはほんの少しだけ考え込んだ。
「ふむん。潜ってみなきゃ確かな事は言えねーが、それなりにかかるだろうぜ」

目下、ヴェルザードは盲目的に暴れ狂っているが、被害は出ていない。

俺の『虚無崩壊』で戦場全体を包み込む事で、全ての攻撃を無効化させているからだ。
　なので安心して、戦力の再編制を任せられるというものだった。

ヴェルザードが『虚無崩壊』で抑えきれるかどうか、そうした心配もあるのだ。放出系の技だけなら問題な いのだが、こちらに気付いて直接攻撃に出られたら面倒であった。 俺はともかく、無防備になったギィや極限状態であろうディアブロを狙われたら、無事である保証は何もな い。そうなる前に、俺が何とかするしかなさそうだった。 俺がヴェルザードを捕縛する。

だから気を張っていないとダメなのだが、ヴェルザードが放つ冷気や魔力波動なんかは、俺が『虚無崩壊』 で包み込んでいるので外部まで影響が及ばない。

　つまり、何事も起こらないのである。

　見ているだけだと暇なので、俺はヴェルザードを観察してみた。 俺の『虚無崩壊』で包み込まれたヴェルザードは、美しいまでの竜形態(ドラゴンモード)である。

そう言えば、『虚無崩壊』があったな、と。

ベニマルの治療時には、マイナスエネルギーの『虚無』をプラスエネルギーに変換する、という荒業まで成 功したのだ。今回はその『虚無』を、剣に纏わせてぶつけるという作戦でいく。

　スキルそのままでは無効化されそうだが、この『虚無』に関しては権能じゃないし、自然界──には存在し ないからちょっと違うが──のエネルギーを利用するだけだ。通用する可能性が高そうだった。

合意も得られたので、全力全開だ。 周囲に影響が出ないように凝縮された〝力〟は、そこだけ異次元化しているほどに禍々しい。更に『虚無崩 壊』も全力稼働させているので、余波が出ようとも相殺余裕──のハズだった。

《そんな使い方をするものではないのですが、それが最適解になるのが解せません》

And Rimuru was fighting Veldnaava and Luvelage using this. So it's far more plausible to assume that Void Collapse is the reason why Rimuru would potentially survive Initialize Heaven and be equal to Veldnaava and Luvelage.
(I'll get these scans translated, but no guarantee that'll finish before the CRT closes.)

So essentially speaking


Void Collapse null effect on everything >> Initialize Heaven = Ivarage's and Veldanava's dura > Rimruru dura

Sure VC can also be used as sheer AP/DC (like in Divine Work: Beginning Eden), but here it's used as a null effect.

Does this make more sense to you?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Updated in the sandbox. Will ask Ciel to update in the OP too

Well, about all this.

First off, Rimuru doesn't get Durability. Even if he did survive, based off the fact that he was equalling Veldanava and Ivarage later, it wouldn't be cuz of dura but hax. Essentially his "Void Collapse", which is a power null hax on steroids. It can cancel all the other powers or attacks in-verse:
And Rimuru was fighting Veldnaava and Luvelage using this. So it's far more plausible to assume that Void Collapse is the reason why Rimuru would potentially survive Initialize Heaven and be equal to Veldnaava and Luvelage.
(I'll get these scans translated, but no guarantee that'll finish before the CRT closes.)

So essentially speaking


Void Collapse null effect on everything >> Initialize Heaven = Ivarage's and Veldanava's dura > Rimruru dura

Sure VC can also be used as sheer AP/DC (like in Divine Work: Beginning Eden), but here it's used as a null effect.

Does this make more sense to you?

So Rimuru is only even comparable and capable of fighting Veldanava, Ivarage, and Luvelage because of Void Collapse and nothing else? Which would mean he doesn't really scale to them but his hax are just more powerful, right?

 

[Cipher72]

Which would mean he doesn't really scale to them

In terms of durability yes from what I understood which is why I am currently favouring OP's interpretation more.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

So Rimuru is only even comparable and capable of fighting Veldanava, Ivarage, and Luvelage because of Void Collapse and nothing else? Which would mean he doesn't really scale to them but his hax are just more powerful, right?

He could scale in terms of AP, becuase if I recall correctly SOME hax can be used for AP too
Like Zeno's EE is listed in AP even tho it's not physical
There's also the "can bypass dura with certain attacks" option always present


But other than that nope
His dura will prolly chain-scaling from lower tiers and deffo not to the entire cosmology nuking
Tho he'll have a broken powernull in exchange lol

 

[Lycoris4812]

Well, he does devour both.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Well, he does devour both.

True that
He could also get dura via absorption, like he and Yuuki did in WN (getting tier 2 dura cuz Beelzebub can avosrv tier 2 AP and DC attacks)

But then again, it's hax based and not physical unlike Ivarage and veldnaava's

 

[Lycoris4812]

True that
He could also get dura via absorption, like he and Yuuki did in WN (getting tier 2 dura cuz Beelzebub can avosrv tier 2 AP and DC attacks)

But then again, it's hax based and not physical unlike Ivarage and veldnaava's

I'm talking about him absorbing their energy.

Vol 23 said you need an equal or greater amount of energy to annihilate those with high energy levels, and I'm pretty sure we already have accepted that more energy equals more AP. So basically AP = dura.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm talking about him absorbing their energy.

Azathoth ignores that, and so does Soul devour in general
Remember how Beelzebub's Soul devour worked on Veldora even tho there was a 7x or something energy difference

Am thinking of making soul devour a fate based or similar hax cuz every time it does it's thing, lines like pre established harmony/pre-determined fate are mentioned

 

[Lycoris4812]

Azathoth ignores that, and so does Soul devour in general
Remember how Beelzebub's Soul devour worked on Veldora even tho there was a 7x or something energy difference

Yeah but hes still absorbing their energy and all their skills.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yeah but hes still absorbing their energy and all their skills.

In that sense, post absorption would have that dura/AP if he gets a key for it
But the keys before that, nope

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

That reminds me... I still need to make a CRT regarding the hax-AP relation Tensura has....

 

[SomebodyData]

Glad we've gotten a straightforward TenSura revision

Agreed with the proposed changes

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Glad we've gotten a straightforward TenSura revision

¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

Agreed with the proposed changes

I'll apply the changes tomorrow, just in case anyone else wants to say or ask something related to this topic.

 

[PHANtomFELdway]

¯⁠\⁠⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠⁠/⁠¯

I'll apply the changes tomorrow, just in case anyone else wants to say or ask something related to this topic.

Sooo what is the name going to be?

 

[Community_Gamer]

He could scale in terms of AP, becuase if I recall correctly SOME hax can be used for AP too
Like Zeno's EE is listed in AP even tho it's not physical
There's also the "can bypass dura with certain attacks" option always present


But other than that nope
His dura will prolly chain-scaling from lower tiers and deffo not to the entire cosmology nuking
Tho he'll have a broken powernull in exchange lol

Sure you scale his AP via Void Collapse and as long as we agree with the durability issues then the changes should be fine.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Sooo what is the name going to be?

Pre/Post Descent

 

[Robo432343]

you spelt Multiverse level+ wrong

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Pre/Post Descent

Let's just go with "pre-post" creation... Since that is what everyone knows...

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Let's just go with "pre-post" creation... Since that is what everyone knows...

Not necessarily correct though, cuz Veldanava was creating worlds even after said "post creation", it'll only cause more confusion in the future

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

you spelt Multiverse level+ wrong

I thought I had fixed it ʕ⁠ಠ⁠_⁠ಠ⁠ʔ
Fixed

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Not necessarily correct though, cuz Veldanava was creating worlds even after said "post creation", it'll only cause more confusion in the future

I don't think it will confuse anyone due to how commonly the name is used.... Instead, I think it will be far more confusing if we were to use anything else....

 

[Cipher72]

I don't think it will confuse anyone due to how commonly the name is used.... Instead, I think it will be far more confusing if we were to use anything else....

Can we use Turn Null ?

Fixed

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Can we use Turn Null ?

for the name or as an ability? If the ability is only pre-creation, with a very limited usage amount.

 

[Cipher72]

for the name or as an ability? If the ability is only pre-creation, with a very limited usage amount.

As a Key name
Pre losing Turn Null or sth
Maybe just name one key
Turn Null and the other Post Creation/Descent

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

For now I agree with @Community_Gamer if we consider Rimuru is not equal to Iverage and Veldanava in Durability then sure. Though that that statement is really vague "since she is my other half she would survive" but not gonna hold this thread because of that.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I don't think it will confuse anyone due to how commonly the name is used.... Instead, I think it will be far more confusing if we were to use anything else....

Not really

I've had my fair share of encounters on various other sites where fans think "post creation" refers to human Veldanava or pre-Milim Veldanava lmao

Besides, Descent is an actual word used in the narrative, I think pre/post Descent should be the most clear. Also, another thing we could do is modify the summary to fit the key Divisison.