The Most Racist Tier 0 is a BUM

[Udlmaster]

For Shub, I've reused the Ultimate God's justification as she's an Ultimate God and her scaling is just scaling to them.

 

[Udlmaster]

Finished off Hypnos; I've put him as High 1-B, Higher over time

I imagine Ultima will cover Hypnos, Nodens and the others himself so I'll add in the "Outdated" section to them too.

And with that, that's all of them complete.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Alright, so I edited the page to reflect the current ratings; mainly changed the explanations but also merged and edited a couple of sections here and there with the new way we view the canon (like making the Ultimate Abyss and Archetype sections one, since they're functionally the same thing)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:SuperNova55555/SandboxCMCosmo

If everyone's fine with it, I can js edit this in until further revisions are made

 

[Re5yh]

I removed some vandalism from Azathoth's profile

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

I've added the "Outdated" template to Nyarlathotep's page since Ultima says he wants to deal with Nyarlathotep himself on another CRT.

There are a few reference errors in Yog-Sothoth's profile. I tried to fix it and failed; it would be much better if someone else did it.

Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos)

Yog-Sothoth is one of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods that reside in the formless chaos past the confines of dimensioned space, and the most important and prominent of them all, being directly associated with the entity known as "The Supreme Archetype," who reigns chief among the inhabitants of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

And with that, that's all of them complete.

Thank you greatly.

Alright, so I edited the page to reflect the current ratings; mainly changed the explanations but also merged and edited a couple of sections here and there with the new way we view the canon (like making the Ultimate Abyss and Archetype sections one, since they're functionally the same thing)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:SuperNova55555/SandboxCMCosmo

If everyone's fine with it, I can just edit this in until further revisions are made

Thank you. That seems good to me.

Cthulhu Mythos Cosmology

This explanation page for the Cthulhu Mythos analyzes and ranks its cosmology according to this wiki's Tiering System. The canon of Howard Philips Lovecraft and the Lovecraft Circle is one of the earliest examples of a fictional setting with a particularly intricate and powerful cosmology. A...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Udlmaster]

Thank you greatly.

You're very welcome : )

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

You're very welcome : )

Can you also fix this page? A range based on Umr at tawil's previous tier.
Range: Outversal

The Dunwich Horror

The Dunwich Horror is the title given to an entity from the short story of the same name, which is part of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos. The Dunwich Horror is a partially human monstrosity created when Noah Whately supposedly invoked the entity Yog-Sothoth to impregnate his daughter with a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SuperNova55555]

Thank you. That seems good to me.

Alright, I updated the page

 

[Antvasima]

Please check through all of the relevant pages for potential errors, so I can lock them afterwards.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Please check through all of the relevant pages for potential errors, so I can lock them afterwards.

I also updated the verse’s main page.

The only thing left honestly is whether or not the universe below the First Gate itself is High 1-B or not. Ultima and the others seem to have vaguely settled on that (considering he rated Tawil at High 1-B), but I do have my complaints with it. Regardless, that can be left for another thread.

 

[SuperNova55555]

There are a few reference errors in Yog-Sothoth's profile. I tried to fix it and failed; it would be much better if someone else did it.

Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos)

Yog-Sothoth is one of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods that reside in the formless chaos past the confines of dimensioned space, and the most important and prominent of them all, being directly associated with the entity known as "The Supreme Archetype," who reigns chief among the inhabitants of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Fixed them myself

 

[Udlmaster]

There are a few reference errors in Yog-Sothoth's profile. I tried to fix it and failed; it would be much better if someone else did it.

Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos)

Yog-Sothoth is one of the all-powerful Ultimate Gods that reside in the formless chaos past the confines of dimensioned space, and the most important and prominent of them all, being directly associated with the entity known as "The Supreme Archetype," who reigns chief among the inhabitants of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Could you be clear, which ones have errors besides the one with > on it.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I've fixed up some formatting errors on the cosmology page. Take care when editing to get the formatting right.

 

[Antvasima]

I've fixed up some formatting errors on the cosmology page. Take care when editing to get the formatting right.

Thank you greatly for helping out.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Could you be clear, which ones have errors besides the one with > on it.

No problem, someone else fixed Yog-Sothoth's broken reference box. Nyarlathotep had the same problem, and I fixed that too. You did a good job.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out to both of you.

 

[TheArtExplorer]

I think Hypnos should be removed from the site, and the quotes from Hypnos in the Cosmology section removed too, as they don't pertain to the Dreamlands at all. In fact, in the story there is no mention of the Dreamlands. The page for Hypnos goes by the false idea that the Hypnos narrator's friend was the "Hypnos, lord of sleep" mentioned by the narrator. However, a much more sensical interpretation would be that Hypnos was the being that killed the narrator's friend, not that Hypnos WAS the narrator's friend, as that doesn't make sense if you read what happens:

The tension of my vigil became oppressive, and a wild train of trivial impressions and associations thronged through my almost unhinged mind. I heard a clock strike somewhere—not ours, for that was not a striking clock—and my morbid fancy found in this a new starting-point for idle wanderings. Clocks—time—space—infinity—and then my fancy reverted to the local as I reflected that even now, beyond the roof and the fog and the rain and the atmosphere, Corona Borealis was rising in the northeast. Corona Borealis, which my friend had appeared to dread, and whose scintillant semicircle of stars must even now be glowing unseen through the measureless abysses of aether. All at once my feverishly sensitive ears seemed to detect a new and wholly distinct component in the soft medley of drug-magnified sounds—a low and damnably insistent whine from very far away; droning, clamouring, mocking, calling, from the northeast.

But it was not that distant whine which robbed me of my faculties and set upon my soul such a seal of fright as may never in life be removed; not that which drew the shrieks and excited the convulsions which caused lodgers and police to break down the door. It was not what I heard, but what I saw; for in that dark, locked, shuttered, and curtained room there appeared from the black northeast corner a shaft of horrible red-gold light—a shaft which bore with it no glow to disperse the darkness, but which streamed only upon the recumbent head of the troubled sleeper, bringing out in hideous duplication the luminous and strangely youthful memory-face as I had known it in dreams of abysmal space and unshackled time, when my friend had pushed behind the barrier to those secret, innermost, and forbidden caverns of nightmare.

And as I looked, I beheld the head rise, the black, liquid, and deep-sunken eyes open in terror, and the thin, shadowed lips part as if for a scream too frightful to be uttered. There dwelt in that ghastly and flexible face, as it shone bodiless, luminous, and rejuvenated in the blackness, more of stark, teeming, brain-shattering fear than all the rest of heaven and earth has ever revealed to me. No word was spoken amidst the distant sound that grew nearer and nearer, but as I followed the memory-face’s mad stare along that cursed shaft of light to its source, the source whence also the whining came, I too saw for an instant what it saw, and fell with ringing ears in that fit of shrieking and epilepsy which brought the lodgers and the police. Never could I tell, try as I might, what it actually was that I saw; nor could the still face tell, for although it must have seen more than I did, it will never speak again. But always I shall guard against the mocking and insatiate Hypnos, lord of sleep, against the night sky, and against the mad ambitions of knowledge and philosophy.

Hypnos killed the narrator's friend, he wasn't the narrator's friend. The WT illustration of the story makes this even more clear:

Finally, the story Hypnos makes no reference to any Mythos locations, entities, or anything connecting it to the Mythos. Thus, I deem it non-"canon". The same applies to The Crawling Chaos, as aside from maybe the title, there are no Mythos references. The Music of Erich Zann, Dagon, The White Ship and The Empire of the Necromancers are all far more "canon" than Hypnos or The Crawling Chaos, as they are actually connected to the Mythos and/or the Dream Cycle.

 

[TheArtExplorer]

Also, since we are counting Lovecraft Circle works, this one might be interesting:

There was a certain spot Outside where Scott could achieve his desire. In that place thought was obscurely linked to energy and matter, because of an insane shrill piping (Ludwig said) that eternally filtered from beyond a veil of flickering colors. It was very near the Center, the Center of Chaos, where dwells Azathoth, the Lord of All Things. All that exists was created by the thoughts of Azathoth, and only in the Center of Ultimate Chaos could Scott find means to live again on earth in human form. There is an erasure in Edmond’s notes at this point, and it is only possible to make out the fragment: “. . . of thought made real.”

White-faced, hollow-cheeked, Ludwig said that he must complete his task. He must take Scott to the Center, although he confessed to a horrible fear that made him hesitate. There were dangers in the way, and pitfalls where one might easily be trapped. Worst of all, the veil shielding Azathoth was thin, and even the slightest glimpse of the Lord of All Things would mean utter and complete destruction to the beholder. Scott had spoken of that, Ludwig said, and had also mentioned the dreadful lure that would drag the young student’s eyes to the fatal spot unless he fought strongly against it.

-- Hydra by Henry Kuttner
Azathoth is the Lord of All Things who created everything. I think we sorta already knew that [Fungi XXII] but its more blatant.

 

[TheArtExplorer]

Also some statements of higher dimensions:

“When a man ascends a flight of stairs it does not inevitably follow that he will arrive at the top. When a man crosses a street or a field or a public square it is no foreordained that he will reach the other side. I have seen strange shadows in the sky. Other worlds impinging on ours I know that there are other worlds, but perhaps they do no dimensionally impinge. Perhaps from fourth-, fifth-, sixth-dimensional worlds things with forms invisible to us, with faces veiled to us, reach down and take—instantaneously, mercilessly. Feeding on us perhaps? Using our brains for fodder? A few have glimpsed the truth for a terrifying instant in dreams. But it takes infinite patience and self-discipline, and years of study to establish waking contact, even for an instant, with the bodiless shapes that flicker appallingly in the void a thousand billion light years beyond the remotest of the spiral nebulae.

Little rose and laid a steadying hand on Algernon’s arm. “I haven’t said I couldn’t help,” he said. “Though Chaugnar Faugn is a very terrible menace it isn’t quite as omnipotent as Ulman thought. It and its brothers are incarnate manifestations of a very ancient, a very malignant hyperdimensional entity. Or call it a principle, if you wish—a principle so antagonistic to life as we know it that it becomes a spreading blight, as destructive as a nest of cancer cells would be if cancer could be transplanted by surgical means into healthy tissue, and continue to grow and proliferate until every vestige of healthy tissue has been destroyed. But it is a cancer whose growth I can at least ******. And if I am successful I can send it back to its point of origin beyond the galactic universe, can cut it asunder forever from our three-dimensional world. Had I known that the horror still lurked in the Pyrenees I should have gone, months ago, to send it back. Yes, even though the thought of it now fills me with a loathing unspeakable, I should have gone.

“You know perfectly well that Little’s mentally unbalanced,” affirmed Imbert, “that it would be madness to credit his assertions.” He gestured toward the machine. "That thing is merely a mechanical hypnotizer. Ingenious, I concede—it can induce twilight sleep with a rapidity I wouldn’t have thought possible—but it is quite definitely three-dimensional. It brings the subconscious to the fore, the subconscious that believes everything it is told, induces temporary somnolence while Imbert whispers: ‘You are gazing on a fourth-dimensional figure. You are gazing on a fourth-dimensional figure.’ Such deceptions aren’t difficult to implant when the mind is in a dreamlike state.”

“I’d rather not discuss it,” murmured Algernon. “I can’t believe the figure we saw was wholly a deception. It was too ghastly and unbelievable. And remember that we both saw the same figure. I was watching you at the time—you looked positively ill. And mass hypnotism is virtually an impossibility. You ought to know that. No two men will respond to suggestion in the same way. We both saw a four-dimensional figure—an outrageous figure.”

Little shook his head. “I mean simply that Chaugnar Faugn and its hideous brethren were joined together hyperdimensionally and that we destroyed them simultaneously. It is an axiom of virtually every speculative philosophy based on the newer physics and the concepts of non-Euclidean mathematics that we can’t perceive the real relations of objects in the external world, that since our senses permit us to view them merely three-dimensionally we can’t perceive the hyperdimensional links which unite them.

“If we could see the same objects—men, trees, chairs, houses—on a fourth-dimensional plane, for instance, we’d notice connections that are now wholly unsuspected by us. Your chair, to pick an example at random, may actually be joined to the window-ledge behind you or . . . to the Woolworth Building. Or you and I may be but infinitesimally tiny fragments of some gigantic monster occupying vast segments of space-time. You may be a mere excrescence on the monster’s back, and I a hair of its head—I speak metaphorically, of course, since in higher dimensions of space-time there can be nothing but analogies to objects on the terrestrial globe—or you and I and all men, and everything in the world, every particle of matter, may be but a single fragment of this larger entity. If anything should happen to the entity you and I would both suffer, but as the monster would be invisible to us, no one—no one equipped with normal human organs of awareness—would suspect that we were suffering because we were parts of it. To a three-dimensional observer we should appear to be suffering from different causes and our invisible hyperdimensional solidarity would remain wholly unsuspected.

“If two people were thus hyperdimensionally joined, like Siamese twins, and one of them were destroyed by a machine similar to the one we used against Chaugnar Faugn, the other would suffer effacement at the same instant, though he were on the opposite side of the world.”

Algernon looked puzzled. “But why should the link be invisible? Assuming that Chaugnar Faugn and the Pyrenean horrors were hyperdimensionally joined together—either because they were parts of one great monster, or merely because they were one in the hyperdimensional sphere, why should this hyperdimensional connecting link be invisible to us?”

“Well—perhaps an analogy will make it clearer. If you were a two instead of a three-dimensional entity, and if, when you regarded objects about you—chairs, houses, animals—you saw only their length and breadth, you wouldn’t be able to form any intelligible conception of their relations to other objects in the dimension you couldn’t apprehend—the dimension of thickness. Only a portion of an ordinary three-dimensional object would be visible to you and you could only make a mystical guess as to how it would look with another dimension added to it. In that, to you, unperceivable dimension of thickness it might join itself to a thousand other objects and you’d never suspect that such a connection existed. You might perceive hundreds of flat surfaces about you, all disconnected, and you would never imagine that they formed one object in the third dimension.

“You would live in a two-dimensional world and when three-dimensional objects intruded into that world you would be unaware of their true objective conformation—or relatively unaware, for your perceptions would be perfectly valid so long as you remained two-dimensional.

“Our perceptions of the three-dimensional world are only valid for that world—to a fourth-dimensional or fifth-or sixth-dimensional entity our conceptions of objects external to us would seem utterly ludicrous. And we know that such entities exist. Chaugnar Faugn was such an entity. And because of its hyperdimensional nature it was joined to the horror on the hills in a way we weren’t able to perceive. We can perceive connections when they have length, breadth and thickness, but when a new dimension is added they pass out of our ken, precisely as a solid object passes out of the ken of an observer in a dimension lower than ours. Have I clarified your perplexities?”

-- The Horror from the Hills by Frank B. Long

 

[TheArtExplorer]

More statements:

"Splendid," he gloated. "It all seems to tie in with the accepted scientific theories, too. Know what I mean? The Einsteinian notions of coexistence; the space-time continuum ideas."

"The Fourth Dimension?" I echoed.

"Exactly. New worlds all around us—within us. Worlds we never dream of exist simultaneously with our own; right here in this spot there are other existences. Other furniture, other people, perhaps. And other physical laws. New forms, new color."

"That sounds metaphysical to me, rather than scientific," I observed. "You're speaking of the Astral Plane—the continuous linkage of existence."

We were back again at our perpetual squabbling point—science or occultism; physical versus psychical reality.

"The Fourth Dimension is Science's way of interpreting the metaphysical truths of existence," I maintained.

"The metaphysical truths of existence are the psychological lies of dementia praecox victims," he asserted.

"Your pictures don't lie," I answered.

"My pictures are taken by recognized scientific means," he said.

"Your pictures are taken by means older than science," I replied. "Ever hear of lithomancy? Divination by the use of jewels. Ever hear of crystal-gazing? For ages, men have peered into the depths of precious stones, gazed through polished, specially cut and ground glasses, and seen new worlds."

"Look at the cat—contrary to popular impression a nyctalops. Yet men can train themselves similarly. Reading, too, is a matter of the mind rather than of minute perception. And so I say to you, don't be too sure of your laws of optics, and your scientific theories of light. We see a lot no physical laws will ever explain. The Fourth Dimension can be approached only through angles—science must concede that in theorization. And your lenses are cut similarly. It all goes back to occultism in the end—occultism, not 'oculism' or ophthalmology."

"I think I do," I said. "If Voorden is right. That jewel is a key. Its angles open to the Astral Plane. The Astral Plane—here, don't shake your head so—corresponds to the scientific conception of the Fourth Dimension, although metaphysicians believe it is an extension of third-dimensional life. That is, when men die their souls enter the Astral Plane and pass through it into another higher form of existence on a higher dimension. The Astral Plane is a sort of No Man's Land existing all about us, where lost souls, and lower entities that have never achieved life, wander forever in a sort of Limbo."

"Hooey."

"A modern criticism. But it's an ancient belief, mirrored in a thousand forms in scores of religions. And wait until you see what I'm getting at. Ever hear of Elementals?"

"Nothing but a few mentions. Ghosts, aren't they?"

"No—forces. Entities not human, but linked with humanity. They are the demons and familiars and the incubæe and the genie of all religions; the beings that exist invisibly around us and seek traffic with men. Organisms outside three-dimensional life, if you want it in more scientific terminology. They inhabit another Time-field, another space continuum that is nevertheless synchronized and co-existent with our own. They can be viewed, or reached, as ultra-dimensional inhabitants, only through angles. The angles, the facets of this jewel, enabled us to see through to them. They establish a focal point with infinity. What we saw, then, are Elementals."

-- The Sorcerer's Jewel by Robert Bloch

 

[TheArtExplorer]

Yog-Sothoth is ultradimensional:

Recalling them, again he trembled at the pre-Adamite lubriciousness of Lilit, again he shuddered at the trans-galactic horror of the demon Sodagui, and the ultra-dimensional hideousness of that being known as Iog-Sotôt to the sorcerers of Averoigne.

The Holiness of Azedarac, Clark Ashton Smith

 

[Legion350]

I think Hypnos should be removed from the site, and the quotes from Hypnos in the Cosmology section removed too, as they don't pertain to the Dreamlands at all. In fact, in the story there is no mention of the Dreamlands. The page for Hypnos goes by the false idea that the Hypnos narrator's friend was the "Hypnos, lord of sleep" mentioned by the narrator. However, a much more sensical interpretation would be that Hypnos was the being that killed the narrator's friend, not that Hypnos WAS the narrator's friend, as that doesn't make sense if you read what happens:

Hypnos killed the narrator's friend, he wasn't the narrator's friend. The WT illustration of the story makes this even more clear:

Finally, the story Hypnos makes no reference to any Mythos locations, entities, or anything connecting it to the Mythos. Thus, I deem it non-"canon". The same applies to The Crawling Chaos, as aside from maybe the title, there are no Mythos references. The Music of Erich Zann, Dagon, The White Ship and The Empire of the Necromancers are all far more "canon" than Hypnos or The Crawling Chaos, as they are actually connected to the Mythos and/or the Dream Cycle.

The problem with this is that Lovecraft never made a formal canon as far as I know. So you can’t really pick and choose which specific stories to disregard without disregarding a lot more. We already use the Lovecraft Circle stuff from within his lifetime as far as I know.

 

[Mbpoops]

Next we will be nuking the dark tower

 

[Legion350]

Next we will be nuking the dark tower

Uh oh. Not the Pennywise Low 2-C downgrade

 

[SuperNova55555]

Alright lets not derail anymore. All of ts can be another thread if ya’ll genuinely care. This should honestly be closed then probably

 

[TheArtExplorer]

The problem with this is that Lovecraft never made a formal canon as far as I know. So you can’t really pick and choose which specific stories to disregard without disregarding a lot more. We already use the Lovecraft Circle stuff from within his lifetime as far as I know.

That's why I said "canon" instead of canon. Ooops! But it just doesn't mention anything Mythos...Like, there's nothing.

 

[TheArtExplorer]

[[[By the way, I haven't found anything that says Dagon, Atlach-Nacha, Ghatanothoa or Yig are OId Ones or any synonym of that.]]]

 

[Legion350]

That's why I said "canon" instead of canon. Ooops! But it just doesn't mention anything Mythos...Like, there's nothing.

I get what you were saying originally. My argument was that it doesn’t make sense to pick and choose whats canon when the original author himself did not. Most of the stories in the Dream Cycle did not explicitly mention the Dreamlands, they focused on supernatural dreams. The connections were welded in later.

 

[wozirut]

Could this thread be closed? This thread obviously is concluded

 

[Legion350]

We should probably close this since the original purpose is fulfilled.

@The Art Explorer
Might be able to answer some of your questions in the general discussion thread

 

[Vietthai96]

If no one have problem, i will close this thread, if anyone have problem, can ask me on my wall or other thread mod, admin to reopen the thread

 

[Antvasima]

I have locked the Cthulhu Mythos pages that I unlocked here earlier. Inform me via my message wall if I need to unlock any of them again.

Also, big thanks to everybody who helped out here.