Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

[Mr._East_Statement]

Hello everyone, East here back with another attempt to downgrade another character and this CRT we are going to focus on Yog-Sothoth of Gun Girl Z… okay it sounds cringe alright. This is her profile and this is when first it was brought up, this is the CRT in which it was accepted.

The topic of today is… indeed, controversial, as we are going straight for a supposedly Tier-0 character downgrade.

So if you are knowledgeable about Tier-0 and have read the profile, you probably have understood the problem there, and maybe the CRT in which it was accepted didn't answer the questions. And that's why we are coming with this downgrade within this CRT.

It would be a short and straightforward CRT since the problems are clear and blatant.

Without much delay, let us start.
​

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The Eternal Nameless Tao… merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth?

So if you had read the profile itself, you see this as the justification for Tier-0 in the Attack Potency section.

Why it is the problem?

Just read this,

RAW:​

几百年后,函谷关。 白发的老人面前,关隘的守将正崇敬地看着他: “您真的见到了,传说中的“道”吗?” “没错。”
老人温和的声音,宛如普泽的细雨,平复了守将心中 的焦急。
“道就在那里,它在门后,也在门内。门”并不存 在,但可以被看到,这正是其玄妙的根源......"
一个个梦幻的泡泡在函谷关上升腾了起来,老人的身 影随着泡泡一起慢慢升临到半空中,身后那片琉璃的 世界令守将目眩神迷。而他的声音还在不断响起: “道,可道,非恒道也。由泡所发,向泡而生。 名,可名,非恒名也。出泡而形,入泡而真。 门,始终万物,玄妙之根,泡断影灭,生死相成...... "
就在老人彻底消失之后,守将整理了他留下来的言语 ,并著成一书。但他删去了关于“泡”的描述。 不过,仍有人捕捉到了关于“泡”的蛛丝马迹,为了 找到“泡”,人们将与其形貌相似的丹道视为通往“ 泡”的路径。
据说,当炼丹士们服下真正的金丹以后,他们就能抵 达玄妙之门,得到“泡”赐予的无上智慧。​

TL:​

Hundreds of years ago, at the Hangu Pass.
Before the white-haired old man, stood a defender of the pass that looked at him with reverence.
"Have you truly seen the legendary "Tao"?"
"That's right."
The gentle voice of the old man, like the fine rain of Puze, calmed the anxiety in the guard's heart.
"The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door. The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen. This really is the origin of all which is mysterious."
A dreamy bubble rose up from the Hangu Pass, and the old man's figure slowly rose up into the air along with the Bubble, the crystalized world behind him dazzling the guard. And his voice continued to ring out:
"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.
The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."
Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".
Yet, there still are people who were able to grasp the still threads reminiscent of the Bubble. In order to capture the Bubble, people will look through the path of the Bubble together with the Golden Dan which resembles it.
It is said that after the scholars who practice alchemy have consumed the true Golden Dan they are able to penetrate through the door and acquire the Bubble's blessings and knowledge.​

Co-dependent property with the bubbles? At first one thought this was referring to a lesser property and going by the way of "negation of divine properties" explanation (Apophatic theology). But is this justification truly enough?

Through the CRT, it accepted “because Nameless Tao”, yet as we see here the “Eternal Nameless Tao/Dao” is not so eternal after all and is merely another of Yog-Sothoth's bubbles, despite it also being the essence of existence. It shows that trying to justify the state of Tier-0 for Yog-Sothoth via the Tao/Dao philosophy is nothing but Nominal and Association Fallacy as the “Tao” in the verse doesn't share the same properties as the one from Philosophy.

Tao is the one in Taoism that is the ineffable, indivisible and eternal Tao that grounds everything. GGZ Yog being beyond it, pretty much defeats Tao's Primacy.
​

The root of creation Tao rested in deep chaos (ch. 42). Next, it evolved into the One, a concentrated state of cosmic unity that is full of creative potential and often described in I Ching terms as the taiji. The One then brought forth "the Two", the two energies yin and yang, which in turn merged in harmony to create the next level of existence, "the Three" (yin-yang combined), from which the myriad beings came forth. From original oneness, the world thus continued to move into ever greater states of distinction and differentiation.​

Which Yog-Sothoth's bubble defeats this metaphysical ground (which also was not properly established within the verse from start). Yog-Sothoth, with its description, negates the divine properties of Tao itself in a flawed way.


​

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Beyond Definition & Description: Is it enough?


To continue, the very next link is this, it is when the narrator speaks directly to us, the reader, and breaks the fourth wall actually, within the story of Praise My Lord.​

Hello.
Congratulations on arriving here.
What's this place, you ask?
Oh... How should I put it, this is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal World, the Abode outside of Time-Space.
It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to all things, through great divine power.
So let me demonstrate for you how this divine power works.
Now that you're here, tell me, what is the greatest common denominator in the 4 previous stories, whether it be the Buddha, the Old Man, the King or the Speaker, what is it about them that's the same?
Bubbles? No, no, that's just a metaphor, a symbolic device, like the Sun God riding out in a golden carriage, it doesn't really HAVE to be a golden carriage, it's just that that's what the god likes.
—The truly biggest common denominator is language, and words.
Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.
You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.
This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.
Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.
—This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring its spirituality.
Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.
By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth.​

When you read it, you see the line about Yog-Sothoth being beyond definition and description which confirms its ineffable essence, yet it also further confirms that the whole bubble description and the concept of Nameless Tao within was what it is, a description and a metaphor. So all that remains here is the fact that Yog-Sothoth is “beyond definition and description”, but is it enough for Tier-0? I do not think so, unless we give any character with any form of Apophatic Theology or Ineffable essence.



That can be said the only thing GGZ Yog-Sothoth has, and Transduality too due to transcending Yin and Yang and we know it exists in Babylon too due to Mother's description.
​

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So you might wonder why we are not reaching out to anything new within CRT, and I agree with you. Because based on the profile and CRT, that's it. That was literally the entire Tier-0 justification for GGZ Yog-Sothoth, Ineffable essence, and of course “Tao” while as we see is merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth and metamorphosis.

Generally, these are the whole argument.

Edit: as I expected, the CRT is in chaos, great, so this summarization is for counterarguments and answers to them keeping the flow of the debate.

So I propose this:

1-A: True Form (via TD3 and Primacy).
L1-A: Avatar (scaling to cosmology).

After verse downgrade thread: L1-C, possibly L1-A (by virtue of being 1D+ to everything before it as the one who define boundaries by being beyond them, possibly her transcend over "all things"/"definition and description" be beyond concept of space-time in its entirety)

Unless more context is presented, I see the arguments for Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth insufficient, and nothing but a very charitable scale to the highest possible interpretation based on a false equivalence and misconception about Tao inverse.
​

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Mod Votes:

Agrees: @Antvasima , @DarkDragonMedeus, @Vietthai96, @Qawsedf234

Disagrees:

 

[BoastJr]

 

[Elyartaker]

Yeah makes sense, I agree.
I believe there is some ground for Tier 0 but it's rather weak and needs more context.

 

[Irykamiii]

“Co-dependent property with the bubbles?”
Reads translation HE posted
Quite literally says the opposite

Yeah, this site is seriously a joke if dudes like THIS are allowed to post.

 

[Hecky2222]

Following

Ignoring fallacy stuff only thing that is real problematic for me is this

"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born

I agree that Nameless Dao itself can be Tier 0 but if reasoning itself is just Dao while it is just bubble inside Yog it seems very strange

I'm leaning towards agreeing unless full context isn't explained

 

[Justlol230]

I agree. The T0 arguments felt a little too short and far too simple and clean without much further elaboration, and given the anti-feats present, it's understandable T0 makes no sense.

T0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth instead without Dao (joking)

 

[Re5yh]

I Agree

 

[PedjaTarzan]

“The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.
So...Eternal Dao is not affected here at all. how is this anti feat now?

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

“The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.
So...Eternal Dao is not affected here at all. how is this anti feat now?

The Dao is problematic here.

First, as been said the Dao is merely a bubble born of Yog-Sothoth, and what is a bubble?

Bubbles? No, no, that's just a metaphor, a symbolic device, like the Sun God riding out in a golden carriage, it doesn't really HAVE to be a golden carriage, it's just that that's what the god likes.

And in the previous quote, it already says that it is the bubble itself that Dao is from

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.
The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".

Here the "Dao" clearly has its properties dependent on the bubbles, and how it can be Tier-0 if it has any form of co-dependence property? It shows that the Tao itself is a false equivalence to use, and it was never even had its metaphysical ground established properly within the verse faithful to the philosophy. So the only thing that remains is the unknownable being Yog-Sothoth, which based on the Beyond Description & Definition they have only Apophatic Theology alone due to their unknown nature.

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

Follow

 

[Re5yh]

Maybe we should call over @Weaver261 to look at this since he's the one who made the justification

 

[Hecky2222]

Maybe we should call over Weaver261 to look at this since he's the one who made the justification

agreed. probably he can explain whole context

 

[SuperNova55555]

Following.

Tho I should mention:

Transduality too due to transcending Yin and Yang

This statement while not directly collaborating with, is later exemplified in HSR to be referring to HooH, who doesn’t qualify Yin and Yang in a meaningful sense. As it only describes the functions of Imaginary Energy, and more essentially Real Space. Otherwise he’d be 1-A as well.

In any case, any general statement for Yin and Yang could never qualify for a Tier, hax or any scaling implications for that matter. Aside from rare cases like Nasuverse (or LOTM ) who qualify what these terms insinuate for the verses’ metaphysical framework.

Naturally I have no context on GGZ tho so I’ma wait for supporters. Buttttt I’ve heard some incriminating stuff here and there

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Good luck @Weaver261

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

I disagree. The Dao is explained very well, i don't see any strong anti-feats, also in the GGZ verse Azathoth, Thanatos, Yui, Delta, Nyarlathotep and The Mother are High 1-A, Yog-Sothoth transcends and stands above all of them, so Tier 0 is fair if we also add all his other descriptions.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The Dao is problematic here.

First, as been said the Dao is merely a bubble born of Yog-Sothoth, and what is a bubble?



And in the previous quote, it already says that it is the bubble itself that Dao is from





Here the "Dao" clearly has its properties dependent on the bubbles, and how it can be Tier-0 if it has any form of co-dependence property? It shows that the Tao itself is a false equivalence to use, and it was never even had its metaphysical ground established properly within the verse faithful to the philosophy. So the only thing that remains is the unknownable being Yog-Sothoth, which based on the Beyond Description & Definition they have only Apophatic Theology alone due to their unknown nature.

Reading this it seems like the "named" or trodden Dao is what's arising from bubbles and that the bubbles represent all these named phenomena. I really dont see any contradictions here. It literally says that the Dao that can be named is not THE eternal Dao. So if bubbles are named phenomena then the named Dao definitionally cant be the nameless Dao.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

I disagree. The Dao is explained very well, i don't see any strong anti-feats,

… Saying it is explained well isn't really an answer especially when we consider the above quotes that shows co dependency and negation of Tao itself.

also in the GGZ verse Azathoth, Thanatos, Yui, Delta, Nyarlathotep and The Mother are High 1-A, Yog-Sothoth transcends and stands above all of them, so Tier 0 is fair if we also add all his other descriptions.

Cough cough

Changed : Lord of Myrid Realms was never stated as an Outer God. And Azathoth, although an Outer God, was never stated to live beyond the universe. Azathoth still lives in Babylon. The Mother is later found out to be the larvae of outer god rather than an actual Outer God. So, currently the only Outer God that lives beyond the universe is Yog Sothoth. But still Outer Gods are much much more powerful compared to normal mythical godheads. Azathoth can taint the spritiual air in Babylon just by waking up and walking around. Mythical Godheads are afraid of Azathoth as mere locking eyes with her can lead to insanity.

From Weaver's own thread, can be checked for full context.

Also, how they can be "H1-A" when there is no 1-A within the verse beforehand? You can't jump to H1-A without there be a 1-A that "different" in Genus from none1-A, which H1-A be "different" from my its own Genius. This claim is contradictory and implies there is something 1-A from other entities than the supposedly superior Outer Gods.

… There is no H1-A if I want to be blatant in my wording. If you have any form of proof I would like to hear.

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

… Saying it is explained well isn't really an answer especially when we consider the above quotes that shows co dependency and negation of Tao itself.


Cough cough



From Weaver's own thread, can be checked for full context.

Also, how they can be "H1-A" when there is no 1-A within the verse beforehand? You can't jump to H1-A without there be a 1-A that "different" in Genus from none1-A, which H1-A be "different" from my its own Genius. This claim is contradictory and implies there is something 1-A from other entities than the supposedly superior Outer Gods.

… There is no H1-A if I want to be blatant in my wording.

Hoyoverse is a story written backwards. In 1-A, we have Kiana from HI3 who reaches this Tier via layers of Imaginary Space, Will of the Honkai, The Conscious, and Cocon of Finality. This was actually once on this wiki, but then someone came along and debunked it for no reason. But now no one believes Kiana is 1-A anymore, despite the evidence.

 

[Hecky2222]

Hoyoverse is a story written backwards. In 1-A, we have Kiana from HI3 who reaches this Tier via layers of Imaginary Space, Will of the Honkai, The Conscious, and Cocon of Finality. This was actually once on this wiki, but then someone came along and debunked it for no reason. But now no one believes Kiana is 1-A anymore, despite the evidence.

1A or not this is irrelevant to discussion

Please dont derail topic and focus on Tier 0. You can do 1A CRT by your own if you believe they are

 

[Cipher72]

I have been wondering the same thing actually

Reading this it seems like the "named" or trodden Dao is what's arising from bubbles and that the bubbles represent all these named phenomena. I really dont see any contradictions here. It literally says that the Dao that can be named is not THE eternal Dao. So if bubbles are named phenomena then the named Dao definitionally cant be the nameless Dao.

Boundless (The Nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble. The Nameless Tao is the origin of all things and the root. The Nameless Tao is the true eternal Tao and transcends the limitation of all named things.[8] It's also non-dual in nature and transcends the description or definition that make up everything

So what is this eternal Tao then ? From what I am looking at they are just removing the descriptors making it nameless whilst it was previously named.

Spoiler: Nameless Tao

"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.

The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".

Essentially removing it's name
Does that qualify ?
I am waiting for someone knowledgeable to give context ngl. I am gonna eat popcorn and watch.

 

[Nissa_Ushiromiya]

Either it is 1A or not this is irrelevant to discussion

Please dont derail topic and focus on Tier 0. You can do 1A CRT by your own if you believe they are

Sorry, i didn't mean to divert the subject; he/she brought up Tier 1-A and i simply explained. But okay, i'll stay on topic.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Reading this it seems like the "named" or trodden Dao is what's arising from bubbles and that the bubbles represent all these named phenomena. I really dont see any contradictions here. It literally says that the Dao that can be named is not THE eternal Dao. So if bubbles are named phenomena then the named Dao definitionally cant be the nameless Dao.

I agree with this.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I have been wondering the same thing actually


So what is this eternal Tao then ? From what I am looking at they are just removing the descriptors making it nameless whilst it was previously named.

Spoiler: Nameless Tao

"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.

The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".

Essentially removing it's name
Does that qualify ?
I am waiting for someone knowledgeable to give context ngl. I am gonna eat popcorn and watch.

It seems like it's saying that without any identity all there is, is the eternal Tao rather than it literally being created. Also it taking form from the bubbles isn't a contradiction as well since it's more like those bubbles are an expression of the Dao and all of this are ultimately named phenomena (this also aligns with actual Taoism where all things are an expression of the Dao. Even if you argue it's not exactly the same it'd be silly to divorce it from context).

 

[SuperNova55555]

Reading this it seems like the "named" or trodden Dao is what's arising from bubbles and that the bubbles represent all these named phenomena. I really dont see any contradictions here. It literally says that the Dao that can be named is not THE eternal Dao. So if bubbles are named phenomena then the named Dao definitionally cant be the nameless Dao.

I will say that if all the proof for Tier 0 is that 1) she’s ineffable and 2) she’s the ground for boundaries, then she definitely is at least reducible to High 1-A+, since I don’t see any proof for her being simpliciter in this thread.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I will say that if all the proof for Tier 0 is that 1) she’s ineffable and 2) she’s the ground for boundaries, then she definitely is at least reducible to High 1-A+, since I don’t see any proof for her being simpliciter in this thread.

If something is fundamentally without name or identity and does that then that's pretty much a tier 0 shortcut I'm ngl

 

[SuperNova55555]

If something is fundamentally without name or identity and does that then that's pretty much a tier 0 shortcut I'm ngl

Tier 0 OC when

Ineffability can always be attributed to anything that lacks differentiation in some sense. I.e anything nondual. This obviously doesn’t necessitate that it is nondual is respect to Essence and Being. Rather it’s only always assumed to pertain to accidental modes of being.

 

[Re5yh]

Well, yog sothoth could get avatar creation for the tao emerging from her bubbles

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Tier 0 OC when

Ineffability can always be attributed to anything that lacks differentiation in some sense. I.e anything nondual. This obviously doesn’t necessitate that it is nondual is respect to Essence and Being. Rather it’s only always assumed to pertain to accidental modes of being.

you cant really be nondual to Being on this wiki considering tier 0 is literally just Being (capital B)

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah, uh, what exactly is the problem here?

The nameless dao is the dao that can't be named. Everything else is a derivative. The eternal dao is beyond all description. All of this is a resultant of Yog-Sothoth, who transcends such things.

Pretty cut and dry. There's no vagueness to be clarified because it quite literally wouldn't matter to something that definitions don't matter to? Idk why people think Tier 0s need to be super specific and descriptive. That actually doesn't pair well with the tier most of the time lol.

 

[Robo432343]

as much as i hate seeing tier 0 on this profile, you can't really debunk it

 

[SweetDao]

as much as i hate seeing tier 0 on this profile, you can't really debunk it

Prove it

 

[Vietthai96]

I think her PP should be changed to Type 1

 

[Weaver261]

Through the CRT, it accepted “because Nameless Tao”, yet as we see here the “Eternal Nameless Tao/Dao” is not so eternal after all and is merely another of Yog-Sothoth's bubbles.
Which Yog-Sothoth's bubble defeats this metaphysical ground (which also was not properly established within the verse from start). Yog-Sothoth, with its description, negates the divine properties of Tao itself in a flawed way.

I admit the justifications are kinda ass. Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao. Because Bubbles and doors are merely a medium between mortal world and her world.

The King looked at the huge bubble that laid across the sky, and his eyes widened.

"Is that—"

The Door was opened in front of him, and the crystal-like bubbles surrounded him. This was the reward from God that he got from his piety.

Not only because of the driver's languid tone, but also because of the dreamy glow that suddenly flooded the window, as if the car had broken into some door and entered the interior of a giant bubble.

Yog Sothoth having the power of "description" or "definition" and transcending boundaries which make her beyond definition or in Taoists' word, Nameless.

Unless more context is presented, I see the arguments for Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth insufficient,

If this was the case, staffs would have rejected it outright. Staffs said the game description is already enough to support its own ground.
All in all, what you proposing here is to downgrade a tier 0 just because it only has few scans. There're few tier 0 profiles which has under 10 scans. If you wanna remove one for its lack of more scans, might as well remove them all. No?

Instead of tier downgrade, I think we should just fix the justifications and some errors in profile. I was relatively new to making profile back then.

 

[SuperNova55555]

you cant really be nondual to Being on this wiki considering tier 0 is literally just Being (capital B)

The Nonduality of Pure Esse is derived from the distinction between it’s Essence and Being being dissolved, which is to say that ‘it is all it can be’. “Being” can only be classified as Tier 0 when the distinction of it’s parts is resolved in non-duality. That is to say that it cannot be “this and not that” nor “that and not this” for it is all things, wherein every “thing” as a part is identical to the whole.

High 1-A+ in this wiki, then, merely constitutes the exemplification of this totality as a differentiated whole. Yet, even this whole is qualifiably ineffable; as all modes of being—whether simpliciter or not—remain unattainable by language, particularly in regards to the biggest logical spaces where even statements about the Logical Space itself can be subsumed within itself.

Which is then to say that nonduality, nor ineffability is to ever necessitate the resolution of Act-Potency or Essence-Existence distinction; rather it’s completely reducible to the aforementioned accidental modes of being.

So for something to actually be Tier 0, it must be clarified that the reason for it’s nonduality/ineffability is that it is already all things as one.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Heck, even the Universal Soul in Neoplatonism, as One and Many, transcends both discursive thinking, multiplicity and subject-object distinction and the emanation above it is Being-itself, not Soul. So it can’t be that these attributes are the necessary constituents for Tier 0.

 

[Cipher72]

I admit the justifications are kinda ass. Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao. Because Bubbles and doors are merely a medium between mortal world and her world.

..........
Well there you have it.
I think that pretty much addresses everything, you should add some extra relevant scans though.

 

[Cipher72]

If something is fundamentally without name or identity and does that then that's pretty much a tier 0 shortcut I'm ngl

The problem was with the wording on the profile

Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao

 

[BlazeISbot111]

Before replying, I want to make it clear I do agree with the downgrade but not all the arguments brought by OP.

I admit the justifications are kinda ass. Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao. Because Bubbles and doors are merely a medium between mortal world and her world.

Going by the quote itself, the "Door" itself is the thing that is associated to be primary, with named Tao which comes forth from it, while the door itself contains Nameless Tao inside it. I do not see your justification.

"The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door. The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen. This really is the origin of all which is mysterious."

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.
The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

To me these justifications are seemingly association to irl concepts rather than what the work depicted:

Yog Sothoth having the power of "description" or "definition" and transcending boundaries which make her beyond definition or in Taoists' word, Nameless.

It seems like it's saying that without any identity all there is, is the eternal Tao rather than it literally being created. Also it taking form from the bubbles isn't a contradiction as well since it's more like those bubbles are an expression of the Dao and all of this are ultimately named phenomena (this also aligns with actual Taoism where all things are an expression of the Dao. Even if you argue it's not exactly the same it'd be silly to divorce it from context).

Scaling over Association is something that shouldn't be prevalent as much as it is with it being a literal fallacy accepted by the wiki, this Association itself is unfounded with the quote itself contradicting the Taoism.

GGZ here distinguishes Tao/Dao that is troden upon from Eternal Tao.

"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.

Which is not in-line with the foundational beliefs of Taoism itself that grounds every other such beliefs.

Tao (or Dao) can mean "way", "road", "channel", "path", "doctrine", or "line".[142] Livia Kohn describes the Tao as "the underlying cosmic power which creates the universe, supports culture and the state, saves the good and punishes the wicked. Literally 'the way', Tao refers to the way things develop naturally, the way nature moves along, and living beings growing and declining in accordance with cosmic laws."[143] The Tao is ultimately indescribable and transcends all analysis and definition. Thus, the Tao Te Ching begins with: "The Tao that can be told is not eternal Tao."

~ Taoism(teachings), Wikipedia​

If this was the case, staffs would have rejected it outright. Staffs said the game description is already enough to support its own ground.

I do not understand on what grounds staff accepted this, I do not see any arguments besides primacy as qualification.

All in all, what you proposing here is to downgrade a tier 0 just because it only has few scans. There're few tier 0 profiles which has under 10 scans. If you wanna remove one for its lack of more scans, might as well remove them all. No?

For a tier of such importance I consider this proposal. We should disqualify characters that do not have enough qualifications for their tier in their works.

Instead of tier downgrade, I think we should just fix the justifications and some errors in profile. I was relatively new to making profile back then.

Interesting.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Scaling over Association is something that shouldn't be prevalent as much as it is with it being a literal fallacy accepted by the wiki, this Association itself is unfounded with the quote itself contradicting the Taoism.

GGZ here distinguishes Tao/Dao that is troden upon from Eternal Tao.

Which is not in-line with the foundational beliefs of Taoism itself that grounds every other such beliefs.

You're misunderstanding. It's not tier 0 because "lol taoism", so diverging a bit from taoism doesn't mean tier 0 is suddenly invalid. Also lmao you're claiming something not in line with taoism while the wikipedia thing you sent literally says the same thing at the end.

To say more about it being independent from just taoism you literally have Ultima saying that the text by itself without anything from taoism stands on its own.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Really Yog has literally jack to do with Taoism aside from being ineffable (which isn’t at all exclusive to it)