The Rematch between Strongest Sorcerer of the Heian Era vs. The Horseman of Conquest (Sukuna vs. Makima Rematch) (17-16-4) (Incon Grace)

[Anonymous_Learner]

wow, this match is really neck and neck right now

 

[Robo432343]

imo sukuna stomps before makima can use her wincons + also coz of the domain stuff but put my vote for sukuna fra

 

[LaserPrecision]

If we're being lenient with abilities, couldn't Mahoraga adapt to Hell and escape. He can adapt to basically any phenomena in JJK and JJK has Domains (Which Mahoraga can burst after adapting to) and Prison Realm (A dimension you seal someone in). If he can adapt to those, is there a reason he couldn't adapt to being sent to Hell either?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Roronoa Zoro FRA

If necessary, just put me down as Makima

 

[Robo432343]

how did pochita get out of hell

 

[LaserPrecision]

how did pochita get out of hell

Don't remember. I think he got kicked out. Though it doesn't matter. If Mahoraga can adapt to being in other dimensions (Domains and Prison Realm), he should be able to adapt a way out.

 

[GodEarh206]

If Mahoraga can adapt to being in other dimensions (Domains and Prison Realm), he should be able to adapt a way out.

Mahoraga's two instances of adapting to DE were due to him adapting to DE's techniques and destroying it from within (I guess). And if it was about destroying DE, how could Mahoraga destroy Hell as well?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Mahoraga's two instances of adapting to DE were due to him adapting to DE's techniques and destroying it from within (I guess). And if it was about destroying DE, how could Mahoraga destroy Hell as well?

If he could pop the domain after adapting to it, he could pop hell. Unless you have a reason as to why he shouldn't be able to? Worst case scenario he just develops something like dimensional travel to escape (If he can adapt to basically anything Jujutsu related, he would be able to adapt to being sealed inside the Prison Realm, and escape through those means).

 

[GodEarh206]

If he could pop the domain after adapting to it, he could pop hell. Unless you have a reason as to why he shouldn't be able to?

I mean, if he wants to escape, he has to choose the right door to return through, or if he makes even a slight mistake, he'll encounter other Primal Fears lurking in those doors. And does the "Adaptation" feature actually help Mahoraga find the right door to return through? And as you said, he can destroy an entire Hell dimension—a dimension that should at least be comparable to Earth, since it's where other Devils live, is that really the case?

 

[Robo432343]

I mean, if he wants to escape, he has to choose the right door to return through, or if he makes even a slight mistake, he'll encounter other Primal Fears lurking in those doors. And does the "Adaptation" feature actually help Mahoraga find the right door to return through? And as you said, he can destroy an entire Hell dimension—a dimension that should at least be comparable to Earth, since it's where other Devils live, is that really the case?

he can just kill the other primal fears
dont see the problem
or he can just escape like pochita did

 

[Hecky2222]

Tbf Sukuna needs to use Fuga to kill Makima. Or idk if he can burn all her Japan lifes.

I can see both sides having chance. Dont see how exactly WCS bypasses her contract since it still attack redirected to her

Cant see Sukuna wincoins other than Fuga or possibly soul dismantle, in worst case just burning her all lifes

Voting for Makima FRA + to piss off Robo

 

[LaserPrecision]

I mean, if he wants to escape, he has to choose the right door to return through, or if he makes even a slight mistake, he'll encounter other Primal Fears lurking in those doors. And does the "Adaptation" feature actually help Mahoraga find the right door to return through? And as you said, he can destroy an entire Hell dimension—a dimension that should at least be comparable to Earth, since it's where other Devils live, is that really the case?

He doesn't need to go through the doors, but if he does he can just massacre all the primal fears until he gets kicked out.

Is there evidence to suggest Hell is as big as Earth?

And again, I said adapting Dimensional Travel to escape wouldn't be outside the scope for Mahoraga.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Tbf Sukuna needs to use Fuga to kill Makima. Or idk if he can burn all her Japan lifes.

I can see both sides having chance. Dont see how exactly WCS bypasses her contract since it still attack redirected to her

Cant see Sukuna wincoins other than Fuga or possibly soul dismantle, in worst case just burning her all lifes

Voting for Makima FRA + to piss off Robo

How do you think Open would kill Makima, but a thick WCS erasing her entire body wouldn't?

 

[Hecky2222]

How do you think Open would kill Makima, but a thick WCS erasing her entire body wouldn't?

I dont see how Makima regenarating from getting turned into ashes which Fuga can do. WCS just cuts her into two slices.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I dont see how Makima regenarating from getting turned into ashes which Fuga can do. WCS just cuts her into two slices.

A thin World Cutting Slash would. I'm referring to a thick world cutting slash once Sukuna sees regular cuts won't cut it (pun-intended. I know, I'm a comedic genius)

Attack would be larger than her and leave nothing behind.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Voting for Makima FRA + to piss off Robo

 

[Robo432343]

Tbf Sukuna needs to use Fuga to kill Makima. Or idk if he can burn all her Japan lifes.

I can see both sides having chance. Dont see how exactly WCS bypasses her contract since it still attack redirected to her

Cant see Sukuna wincoins other than Fuga or possibly soul dismantle, in worst case just burning her all lifes

Voting for Makima FRA + to piss off Robo

bro im fine with either winning

 

[Hecky2222]

A thin World Cutting Slash would. I'm referring to a thick world cutting slash once Sukuna sees regular cuts won't cut it (pun-intended. I know, I'm a comedic genius)

Attack would be larger than her and leave nothing behind.

Yes that might work if that won't leave even ashes. Though i don't see in profile Sukuna or CE negating Mid High Regen

 

[Hecky2222]

bro im fine with either winning

Makima solos JJK + Modulo

 

[Robo432343]

Makima solos JJK + Modulo

makimommy

 

[Hecky2222]

makimommy

Nah Yoru is hotter

 

[Robo432343]

ok bro

 

[LaserPrecision]

makimommy

that's a kid....

 

[Robo432343]

that's a kid....

 

[Machmatej]

If we're being lenient with abilities, couldn't Mahoraga adapt to Hell and escape. He can adapt to basically any phenomena in JJK and JJK has Domains (Which Mahoraga can burst after adapting to) and Prison Realm (A dimension you seal someone in). If he can adapt to those, is there a reason he couldn't adapt to being sent to Hell either?

that's crazy and probably NLF. afaik, he needs to be hit or influenced by an attack for him to start adapting. in both a domain and the prison realm he'd be in a place full of intense cursed energy, and he's only ever adapted to a domain after adapting to its techniques. he wouldn't have that same opportunity in hell and hell is at least planet sized, so there's no way mahoraga is bursting that unless you show me a panel of him adapting to the earth and nuking the planet. unless you're trying to say mahoraga would adapt to the process of being teleported, in which case he'd be too slow.

He doesn't need to go through the doors, but if he does he can just massacre all the primal fears until he gets kicked out.

he absolutely does. and you don't get kicked out of hell, you need to find the right door. and i'm very curious on what mahoraga is doing to any of the currently known primal devils, because i don't see a scenario where he isn't tossed aside or completely annihilated.

either way, mahoraga is unimportant here. sukuna still has no way of getting out besides getting lucky, and we still haven't talked about makima's other win conditions.

 

[Machmatej]

Nah Yoru is hotter

 

[Machmatej]

also do we have proof of makima's contract being weaker than yoru's? yoru regenerated from being atomized at the center of a nuclear explosion via a similar contract with california. i don't see fuga or the WCS working here.

 

[Robo432343]

why are we wanking hell...its very easy to escape
makima has other wincons like cosmo yall

 

[LaserPrecision]

that's crazy and probably NLF. afaik, he needs to be hit or influenced by an attack for him to start adapting. in both a domain and the prison realm he'd be in a place full of intense cursed energy

Prison Realm doesn't have Cursed Energy inside of it as far as I'm aware. And why would raw Cursed Energy cause Mahoraga to adapt dimension escaping abilities? The two are unrelated. I'm not sure if you're aware, but going by recent chapter, Mahoraga can adapt to not just vague phenomena or techniques anymore, he can adapt to the very existence of someone. Adapting to being bfr'd and sent to another dimension shouldn't be difficult if he can adapt to anything in his verse including Prison Realm and Domain Expansion.

and he's only ever adapted to a domain after adapting to its techniques.

I'm sure being teleported there to begin with as you put it would start the adaptation process. Teleportation AND BFR are a thing inside JJK after all. So he should be capable of doing so.

he wouldn't have that same opportunity in hell and hell is at least planet sized, so there's no way mahoraga is bursting that unless you show me a panel of him adapting to the earth and nuking the planet.

Can you showcase Hell being the size of Earth? That was mentioned earlier, but no one ever provided proof.

he absolutely does. and you don't get kicked out of hell, you need to find the right door. and i'm very curious on what mahoraga is doing to any of the currently known primal devils, because i don't see a scenario where he isn't tossed aside or completely annihilated.

I didn't recall how Pochita got cut out. For some reason I had the vague memory he got kicked out after wreaking havoc in hell. But again, I doubt he'd need to find a door. And I'm pretty sure he wipes basically every Primal Devil. He's invulnerable and invisible to all of them and Jujutsu shenanigans plus adaptation would let him clear them all.

That said, the Primal Devils aren't allowed to attack Mahoraga, that would be considered outside help in Makima's favor. At worst Mahoraga will just go through doors until he finds a way out. More likely he just adapts and escapes.

either way, mahoraga is unimportant here. sukuna still has no way of getting out besides getting lucky, and we still haven't talked about makima's other win conditions.

Mahoraga is Sukuna's summon. If Mahoraga kills Makima for him, he doesn't need to worry about her at all. And hell, I'm sure he could do shit like open a portal for Sukuna to escape from if he wanted.

also do we have proof of makima's contract being weaker than yoru's? yoru regenerated from being atomized at the center of a nuclear explosion via a similar contract with california. i don't see fuga or the WCS working here.

Being atomized and being erased from space aren't the same :/

 

[Machmatej]

Prison Realm doesn't have Cursed Energy inside of it as far as I'm aware. And why would raw Cursed Energy cause Mahoraga to adapt dimension escaping abilities? The two are unrelated. I'm not sure if you're aware, but going by recent chapter, Mahoraga can adapt to not just vague phenomena or techniques anymore, he can adapt to the very existence of someone. Adapting to being bfr'd and sent to another dimension shouldn't be difficult if he can adapt to anything in his verse including Prison Realm and Domain Expansion.

doesnt the prison realm use a lot of cursed energy to actually seal someone inside of it? the two are very related if it needs a lot of energy to seal someone inside. because i'd imagine adapting to and overpowering the energy that is sealing you inside something is easier than to adapt the very dimension you're sealed inside of, if such thing is even possible. and why is the recent chapter relevant? it's not even the same mahoraga.

I'm sure being teleported there to begin with as you put it would start the adaptation process. Teleportation AND BFR are a thing inside JJK after all. So he should be capable of doing so.

mahoraga's adaptation isn't fast enough to adapt WHILE he's being teleported, and again, if you're arguing he adapts to the existence of hell and destroys it entirely, i want definitive proof that's not "mahoraga can adapt to any phenomena", because even if you argue hell is limited to the little plains we see in part 1, the sea in part 2, and the areas inside the doors, mahoraga hasn't ever destroyed or adapted to something of that magnitude.

I didn't recall how Pochita got cut out. For some reason I had the vague memory he got kicked out after wreaking havoc in hell. But again, I doubt he'd need to find a door. And I'm pretty sure he wipes basically every Primal Devil. He's invulnerable and invisible to all of them and Jujutsu shenanigans plus adaptation would let him clear them all.

pochita got out because he found the exact door the hell devil left behind before getting murked. and no, mahoraga isn't doing anything against the primals. they can all sense his presence. darkness can deflect any attacks that are thrown at him, also become invulnerable, and either telekinetically crush him, deconstruct him, or just drive him insane. aging devil can just toss him into his pocket dimensions where all supernatural abilities are disabled and turn him into a tree. falling devil is the only one without a win con unless we equalize her energy blasts to be CE. but that's not important.

That said, the Primal Devils aren't allowed to attack Mahoraga, that would be considered outside help in Makima's favor. At worst Mahoraga will just go through doors until he finds a way out. More likely he just adapts and escapes.

i disagree. if mahoraga stumbles a primal fear or any other devil and decides to fight them, that's not outside help for makima, it's self sabotage from mahoraga. going through the right door is the correct way of leaving, if mahoraga is smart and lucky enough to find the right door. and i dont think there's anything to adapt to, so i still dont understand that argument.

Mahoraga is Sukuna's summon. If Mahoraga kills Makima for him, he doesn't need to worry about her at all. And hell, I'm sure he could do shit like open a portal for Sukuna to escape from if he wanted.

yes, i'm sure he can do that as well. i remember when mahoraga started opening interdimensional portals in chapter...

Being atomized and being erased from space aren't the same :/

kind of? i'm arguing the "erasing" part gets transferred to a random citizen, because makima was never pushed to such lengths, and the only other person who has an ability like makima resurrected from literally nothing. but also, i'm wondering how in character it is for sukuna to even fully erase someone like that.

 

[GunshyFever]

Snip

I do not buy Mahoragas motion here, it seems pretty wonky. Adapting to a person's "existence" in JJK is still happening within JJK's ruleset, with cursed energy, cursed techniques and a shikigami whose adaptation is explicitly tied to being affected by something and then adjusting to it.

Hell in CSM is not a domain or a sealed space full of cursed energy. It is a separate location accessed by a devil contract. That is a completely different mechanism. If you want to claim Mahoraga adapts to it, you have to show he can adapt to the process of a contract based teleport to a different dimension and then gain an exit condition that matches CSM's rules. Otherwise you are just saying "he adapts to anything" which is the definition of an NLF.

Also regarding your point about the prison realm not having cursed energy inside it does not help your point at all. That still does not prove Mahoraga can adapt to dimensional travel as a concept, because we have not seen him adapt by generating a brand new ability that opens portals. At most, he adapts to negate or resist an effect. Resisting being sealed is not the same thing as escaping a world sized realm with no stated break the wall condition.

Regarding Hells size, well, size is not even the main issue. The issue is that Hell has no shown you can punch your way out mechanic. In CSM, leaving Hell is tied to finding doors and specific circumstances. Pochita did not burst his way through Hell, he exited through a door. So unless you can show Mahoraga can either consistently locate the correct door immediately then "he adapts and escapes" is just fanfiction.

Last part, saying Primal Devils are not allowed to attack Mahoraga because it is outside help is something I can't agree with. If Makima sends someone to Hell, then Hell and what is inside it is the battlefield. You do not remove hazards from a battlefield just because they are inconvenient.

So yes, I believe Mach is right to call that NLF. If you want the Mahoraga escape argument to be taken seriously, it needs an actual chain of feats that show adaptation producing a reliable method of escaping contract based dimensional BFR. Otherwise using your logic, Makima pretty much resists every devil contract in public saftey (Low-Godly regen), considering that Kishibe named her unkillable with it.

A thin World Cutting Slash would. I'm referring to a thick world cutting slash once Sukuna sees regular cuts won't cut it (pun-intended. I know, I'm a comedic genius)

Attack would be larger than her and leave nothing behind.

In a scenario where she remains on the battlefield and does not retreat into the shadows to analyze, she would still see it coming through precognition and have Princi transport her to a different location before it happens.

 

[GunshyFever]

I did not think Mach would respond so soon, sorry for jumping you with args

 

[Machmatej]

I did not think Mach would respond so soon, sorry for jumping you with args

i have to leave for work so i hope you're free to continue

 

[GunshyFever]

Unfortunately not. But this is a debate thread, we can just talk whenever we are available.

 

[LaserPrecision]

doesnt the prison realm use a lot of cursed energy to actually seal someone inside of it?

I don't recall that ever being stated personally. It's been a long time since I read the Shibuya arc, but that isn't something that pops into memory.

and why is the recent chapter relevant? it's not even the same mahoraga.

Uh, because Mahoraga's abilities don't change with each user? If anything Yuki's should be worse than Sukuna's.

mahoraga's adaptation isn't fast enough to adapt WHILE he's being teleported,

He doesn't need to adapt to it right away. He'd start adapting, and once it finished, escape Hell back to Earth.

and again, if you're arguing he adapts to the existence of hell and destroys it entirely, i want definitive proof that's not "mahoraga can adapt to any phenomena", because even if you argue hell is limited to the little plains we see in part 1, the sea in part 2, and the areas inside the doors, mahoraga hasn't ever destroyed or adapted to something of that magnitude.

If he can adapt to any domain, that would mean he is capable of doing this to domains such as Dagon's which is an entire island, Yuji's which is an entire city (And the domain was shown to have locations over 50km away from one another, with Yuji walking Sukuna through the city and then staring down the horizon with him), etc.

But again, that was merely one alternative of several I mentioned. The other being any means of dimensional travel.

pochita got out because he found the exact door the hell devil left behind before getting murked. and no, mahoraga isn't doing anything against the primals. they can all sense his presence. darkness can deflect any attacks that are thrown at him, also become invulnerable, and either telekinetically crush him, deconstruct him, or just drive him insane. aging devil can just toss him into his pocket dimensions where all supernatural abilities are disabled and turn him into a tree. falling devil is the only one without a win con unless we equalize her energy blasts to be CE. but that's not important.

Invulnerability will get negated via adaptation, TK won't affect Mahoraga because he's Invulnerable, all deconstruction has been shown to do is remove limbs which Mahoraga can easily deal with, I've been debating removing madness/fear manip from Darkness Devil, or just making it limited.

Mahoraga adapts to being in pocket dimensions as already addressed, he'd be able to adapt to power nullification via several cursed tools, techniques, and abilities in JJK existing that all null abilities that he'd be able to adapt to (Plus you'd need evidence the power nullification could null Mahoraga's abilities to begin with. Power null isn't assumed to work on all abilities by default or under any circumstance bar Tier 0s), the transmutation doesn't seem to be used on the full body and just cause tree outgrowths on the users body, and the victim seems to still be cognizant (At least from the scans I see on the profile) so Mahoraga can unironically just prolly break out of it. I should be mentioned he'd be adapting to their AP and Regeneration's too. So chances are he'd just end up growing to or above their level and splattering them with some regen negating ability/hax.

i disagree. if mahoraga stumbles a primal fear or any other devil and decides to fight them, that's not outside help for makima, it's self sabotage from mahoraga. going through the right door is the correct way of leaving, if mahoraga is smart and lucky enough to find the right door. and i dont think there's anything to adapt to, so i still dont understand that argument.

The devils existing in hell making it difficult to leave in the first place IS an advantage to Makima. It's helping her because it makes escaping her bfr more difficult for the target. That's just outside influence.

yes, i'm sure he can do that as well. i remember when mahoraga started opening interdimensional portals in chapter...

This is ironic, but I'll explain that later.

Anyways, we accept Mahoraga being able to adapt to any "phenomena" which encompasses Cursed Techniques, Tools, People's/Things existence (Modulo stuff). So it doesn't matter if he didn't adapt to said technique's in canon, we treat it as something within reason that Maho could do.

kind of? i'm arguing the "erasing" part gets transferred to a random citizen, because makima was never pushed to such lengths, and the only other person who has an ability like makima resurrected from literally nothing. but also, i'm wondering how in character it is for sukuna to even fully erase someone like that.

Well I never said it was something Sukuna would start off with tbf. I explicitly said after seeing he can't do shit to her because of the cracked damage transferal hax, then he'll use it. He's left with effectively no other option.


Gunshy, I'll handle your points in dms to avoid redundancy

 

[Epiccheev]

If we're being lenient with abilities, couldn't Mahoraga adapt to Hell and escape. He can adapt to basically any phenomena in JJK and JJK has Domains (Which Mahoraga can burst after adapting to) and Prison Realm (A dimension you seal someone in). If he can adapt to those, is there a reason he couldn't adapt to being sent to Hell either?

Would it actively try to go back or would it get aggroed by the devils in hell and become a catastrophe to them?

 

[Saqphire]

Makima slams FRA.

Also the NLF I'm seeing for Maho is actually crazy

 

[Robo432343]

Gojo beat Makima in that thread by pasting her with blue or hollow purple...WCS is going to do much worse than that

Makima's wincon for Gojo vs Makima wasn't even BFR it was bio hax...BFR was not a good wincon option

 

[Hossein28e7]

This whole ‘coming back from hell’ part feels a bit weird to me. I don’t really get why Sukuna can’t find his way back the same way Pochita can. Even Denji managed to find his way back to Earth pretty easily… or maybe I just misunderstood something.

 

[Epiccheev]

Honestly, Aging soloes both Sukuna and Mahoraga