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I am not saying it doesn't exist, only that it is within the Prime World as a part of it's "reality", and not a separated space outside of it
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Sonic the Hedgehog: The Prime World multi-universe size problem (and downgrade)
- Thread starter Sparkive
- Start date
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If there's no more exterior space, then the entire timeline is Low 2-C again. Once they've been merged there's no 2-C justification anymore.
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They weren't merged tho?
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I don't think they're merged, it's shown that the Shatterspaces and their gateways are restored and exist.
Some people claim they fused again, but I’m not sure where that idea comes from.
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If they exist still, then the Void exists, which is the 2-C element. The Prime Universe is only ever Low 2-C because it's a single space-time. It's the Void construct that would be 2-C.
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I am saying as much, that "bubble" of reality contains of these things, when i say "Prime World" i mean the "buble" that is all of these things fall under, instead of the multiverse
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I mean is there a reason for anything to scale to this Bubble? Because you can fuse Blaze and Sonic's universe without effecting any other Shatterspace.
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You can't tho? It is now part of the timeline that is being destroyed
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How, they're space-time seperated through the Void.
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Said space-time is inherently attached to the Void itself via them being one and the same in past. Maybe I should draw a map or something
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The Prime World is the shatterverse + The Void, they aren't separated from it, they are its pieces, the prime world as it was before the shattering of the prism is not inside the void
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In the past there were no void or shatterspaces only the prime world, which on its own is low 2-C, the show clearly demonstrates that each shatterspace is a timeline that exists independently, besides restoring the prime world to its state before the shatter has no impact on the others.
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If they share the same past, that means they're not seperated for an infinite amount of time which makes them all just Low 2-C.
Again, I'm not sure if you're understanding the tiering system:
- Sonic's Universe is only ever Low 2-C
- All of the Shatterverse connected through the Void is 2-C
- The restored Sonic universe is still Low 2-C
- Our standards says if they're not separated for an infinite amount of time they can't be 2-C
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The Void came into existence because of the prime world shattering, if the void and its constructs are 2-C, then the prime world pre-shatter is also 2-C because both are the same size.
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I disagree based on these reasons. There's no reason to asssume the universes aren't actually universes just based on vibes like the OP seems to argue.
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The Void is only 2-C because it holds seperate 4D structures. If they all merge back together then it's Low 2-C. If the Void is still present then only it is 2-C. Sonic's universe by itself would never be more than Low 2-C from my reading.
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If that's how the Wiki's standards operate even in cases where it's specifically established that the universe was spintered (as in split into smaller portions of itself) into a multiverse, then I'm willing to concede this, but you'd need to provide some kind of comparable precedent or written justification that's agreed upon by the wiki's moderation, because this sure sounds like bogus to me. And the fact that the only other staff members on this thread completely disagree with OP shows that there's no staff consensus on your take.
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One thing I must specify is that the universes didn't merge at the end of Prime. What happened is that Ghost Hill became the main universe instead. The shatterverse and the void still exist.
Zanesucksatlife
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Disagree FRA
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where did all these downgrades even come from anyways?
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Damn... I missed that. Ok then. I don't agree with it, but it is what it is
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It started with my thread and then a few others spawned as a result.
Not my intention with the spinoff threads
TyranoDoom30
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Disagree FRA, but i think this discussion of 2-C Prime World or just Low 2-C should be handled in a separated thread
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I'm a bit late, and I'm not sure if its too late for this or if I should save this for another thread (which i am completely fine with making my own since its quite a different view), but I have 3 takes regarding this.
For my 1st take, I completely disagree with the "shatterverse" not being a multiverse, its very clearly stated to be a multiverse, which by definition constitutes of multiple universes. Individual shatterspaces are also referred to as universes with cosmic bodies to show, and they are even treated as parallel in size dimensions from each other. There's even proof of them all having a unique time flow from one another. Overall, its very clear the intention is for each shatterspace to be its own universe. Shadow even calls each shatterspace "a distorted version of our reality". The prime world itself being its own "shatterspace" from a restored ghost hill being parallel along with shadows statement should easily put a nail in the argument of shatterspaces not being their own entire universe, but heres where my 2nd take comes in.
For my 2nd take, we currently scale the current universe (or the prime world), to 6x bigger than a standard observable universe size because the paradox prism "shattered" it into all these other universes. My first issue with this lies in circular reasoning, if the prime world is considered a universe in the series, and all the shatterspaces are equally considered a universe (with all of them being parallel, and the prime world being treated as an "equal" shatterspace to the vest in the ending), why would it be 6x bigger? The prism is already capable of creating multiple new dimensions of time for each individual shatterspace, and shadow directly says it creates a distorted version of our reality, with ghost hill being heavily suggested to be the remnant of the previous one just without all the shards and is still parallel to all the others in size (which the ending again points to), so why couldn't the prism have simply created new and more space along with new dimensions of time too? The evidence more points to the prime world being parallel to all the others rather then 6x bigger.
For my 3rd take, regarding the void, I fail to see why it should be considered a 6th universe. as I already mentioned, it is not out of the question that prism is just simply capable of creating more space and new dimensions of time, so it could also create the void too, but the void doesn't have anything of note suggesting its size. While it was previously treated as infinite, the proof regarding this was heavily put into question and refuted on my own CRT here. The last argument for the void being anything of note in terms of size is that it "contains" all of the universes which would make it a low multiversal structure, but this also just isn't true. It holds what is directly stated to be the GATEWAYS to said universes. The void is more akin to flipside from super paper mario that has dimensional doors that lead to several other dimensions, but flipside itself wouldn't be that of a multiversal structure and doesn't physically hold all of said dimensions, just their gateways, so I really don't think the void is even relevant at all cosmologically for size.
Overall, I think the Prime world should be considered Low 2-C, and any universe wide feats should use the standard size of a single universe. The shatterspaces are portrayed as parallel distorted duplicates of the main universe rather then the main universe divided by 5. The shatterverse is still a multiverse that consists of 5 universes, but this shouldn't effect the size of the prime world for the reasons i went over above.
For my 1st take, I completely disagree with the "shatterverse" not being a multiverse, its very clearly stated to be a multiverse, which by definition constitutes of multiple universes. Individual shatterspaces are also referred to as universes with cosmic bodies to show, and they are even treated as parallel in size dimensions from each other. There's even proof of them all having a unique time flow from one another. Overall, its very clear the intention is for each shatterspace to be its own universe. Shadow even calls each shatterspace "a distorted version of our reality". The prime world itself being its own "shatterspace" from a restored ghost hill being parallel along with shadows statement should easily put a nail in the argument of shatterspaces not being their own entire universe, but heres where my 2nd take comes in.
For my 2nd take, we currently scale the current universe (or the prime world), to 6x bigger than a standard observable universe size because the paradox prism "shattered" it into all these other universes. My first issue with this lies in circular reasoning, if the prime world is considered a universe in the series, and all the shatterspaces are equally considered a universe (with all of them being parallel, and the prime world being treated as an "equal" shatterspace to the vest in the ending), why would it be 6x bigger? The prism is already capable of creating multiple new dimensions of time for each individual shatterspace, and shadow directly says it creates a distorted version of our reality, with ghost hill being heavily suggested to be the remnant of the previous one just without all the shards and is still parallel to all the others in size (which the ending again points to), so why couldn't the prism have simply created new and more space along with new dimensions of time too? The evidence more points to the prime world being parallel to all the others rather then 6x bigger.
For my 3rd take, regarding the void, I fail to see why it should be considered a 6th universe. as I already mentioned, it is not out of the question that prism is just simply capable of creating more space and new dimensions of time, so it could also create the void too, but the void doesn't have anything of note suggesting its size. While it was previously treated as infinite, the proof regarding this was heavily put into question and refuted on my own CRT here. The last argument for the void being anything of note in terms of size is that it "contains" all of the universes which would make it a low multiversal structure, but this also just isn't true. It holds what is directly stated to be the GATEWAYS to said universes. The void is more akin to flipside from super paper mario that has dimensional doors that lead to several other dimensions, but flipside itself wouldn't be that of a multiversal structure and doesn't physically hold all of said dimensions, just their gateways, so I really don't think the void is even relevant at all cosmologically for size.
Overall, I think the Prime world should be considered Low 2-C, and any universe wide feats should use the standard size of a single universe. The shatterspaces are portrayed as parallel distorted duplicates of the main universe rather then the main universe divided by 5. The shatterverse is still a multiverse that consists of 5 universes, but this shouldn't effect the size of the prime world for the reasons i went over above.
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ShakeResounding
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Tbh I am fine honestly with dropping the Prime World back to Low 2-C. I had been thinking about it for some time and the universe could have easily had been splintered due to hax from the Paradox Prism rather than necessitating the universe be 6x larger.
Though, scaling would have to be adjusted and I think the cast would drop down to baseline 2-C after a certain point as a result.
Though, scaling would have to be adjusted and I think the cast would drop down to baseline 2-C after a certain point as a result.
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Yeah, I think 2 universes for that new level, they were already there because of Secret Rings and the universe merging would go from 12 to 2 unis. And prism could be 6x uni.
Well I say SR is 2x uni but, if the night palace infinite space is removed would it still be there? Or just baseline uni+.
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Tbf I don't think this is relevent for this thread rn (as they would still keep their 2-C scaling anyways).
Ghengiroo115
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I agree with changing the Prime World to Low 2-C based on Qaws’s reasons, though I need some clarification on how the void works. Is it just a place that holds gateways or does it hold the physical spaces themselves? Also, is it just for the shatterspaces or would it extend to other parallel worlds as well (such as the Sol Dimension)?
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Sonic has 2 feats that scale to the entire Shatterverse, so the cast would drop to 6x uni and the baserline 2-C feats would serve as support.
ShakeResounding
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Oh, could you remind me of what that is? Tanking the explosion that caused the Shatterverse's birth?
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Sonic tanking the shattering of the prism would still be a 5-6 times universal feat.
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I agree with Qaws’s reasoning for the Prime World being Low 2-C (thus dropping the Sonic Rush feat to 2 Universes), though the Shatterverse/Paradox Prism would still be 2-C.
ShakeResounding
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Oh yeah.
I guess that means we really need to figure out when it's applicable. We know it's Post-Advance 3 but we literally get no other context clues to work off of from what I remember.
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The timeline mentions that Tails knows green hill, which it used to put prime post Generations.
Ghengiroo115
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iirc Orbot and Cubot also have cameos, which suggests it’s after Unleashed since Orbot is the successor to SA-55.
ShakeResounding
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So Secret Rings begins our baseline 2-C scaling, and then we start scaling to Sonic's Parsdox Prism durability feat to Post-Generations characters.
Is there any possible way to get even more specific about when it takes place, or is this where it ends?
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I imagine it would probably be pre-Forces? Based on what I remember the concept of Eggman taking over the world was super unexpected and a first for Sonic in that show.
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