(Jujutsu Kaisen) Miwa rework (Mostly downgrade (Ily Miwa))

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

It's no secret a lot of the verse profiles are cooked rn. No one has to do everything, everyone has to do something. I'm fixing Miwa.
All changes can be seen on this sandbox.

The Big Thing:
Right now, Miwa is Building level: scaling to Maki and Nobara, above grade 3 cursed spirits, and to semi grade 2 curses (the latter two just by nature of being a grade 3 sorcerer). Our wiki currently has Nobara at Steet tier, with her justification being her upscaling grade 3 curses, who scale to shotguns. I don't believe we have a scale for semi grade 2 curses, and thus the only thing Miwa has to scale her to building is scaling from Maki.
Miwa does not scale to Maki. The current profile uses this fight here as justification. In the fight, Miwa does not land a single hit on Maki, and even says that if Maki was using a real weapon she would have killed her twice. It's like saying Jogo scales to Shibuya Sukuna. In short, Maki does her exactly how a building level character would do a street level character they weren't trying to kill.
Thus, I think Miwa should be downgraded to 9-C, scaling to her grade 3 comrade, Nobara.
In terms of the justification, the current profile scales her to Nobara via them having the same "Moter skills" score. That's not AP. I changed the justification to them simply both being grade 3 sorcerers.
Slightly Smaller Things:
(Note: This came about after a little community feedback).
I split the profile between a pre and post Shibuya key, as during the attack she imposed a binding vow onto herself to never swing a katana again, which severely limits her abilities as a sorcerer. But she should still be able to use cursed energy and what not. I won't get into all the changes made for the key (it's pretty much what you'd think), but you can look at them here.

Other Things:
.Miwa made a binding vow. So she should be able to use binding vows.
.In her weapon mastery justification, current profile cites an anime fight. I replaced it with it's manga counterpart, as to my knowledge the anime is no longer considered canon.
.Current profile also scales Miwa to Maki in terms of speed. Same rasons as above for why she shouldn't scale; I'm downgrading her to Superhuman, scaling to Nobara. Also adding "far higher with Batto Sword Drawing (As it's the fastest technique within the New Shadow Style)" Something that's already on Kusakabe's profile.
.Current profile has her at Peak Human stamina with no justification. I'm downgrading her to "At least Athletic (Fought with Maki for some time without showing signs of tiring)" I've been told to change this to "Superhuman (Sorcerers are just generally more resilient due to ce reinforcement over many years. Capable of using simple domain.)"
.Current profile has intelligence at Above Average, again with no justification. I'm changing this to At least Average, with the justification of: "A competent Sorcerer and sword fighter. Ranks average to below average compared to her peers in terms of Moter Skills, Classroom Learning, and Jujutsu Sense" with an added note that the peers in question are: Yuji Itadori, Megumi Fushiguro, Nobara Kugisaki, Yuta Okkotsu, Maki Zenin, Toge Inumaki, Panda, Kinji Hakari, Mai Zenin, Kokichi Muta, Aoi Todo, Noritoshi Kamo, and Momo Nishimiya. Most of whom fall into the Gifted range.
.Current profile has her age at Unknown. Guidebook says she 17, so I made her 17.
.In her weaknesses section, I added that after her binding vow, she can no longer use her katana.
.I changed the manga picture of her from this to this. I just like it more, we see more of her.

Uhh, I think that's it.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Arkenis]

.Current profile has her at Peak Human stamina with no justification. I'm downgrading her to "At least Athletic (Fought with Maki for some time without showing signs of tiring)"

Should be superhuman. Sorcerers are kinda just superhuman, even taking into account varying feats of stamina, Miwa should be bare minimum above athletic humans given they routinely fight each other in training or fight against cursed spirits.

.Current profile has intelligence at Above Average, again with no justification. I'm changing this to Likely Above Average, with the justification of: "A competent Sorcerer and sword fighter. Ranks average to below average compared to her peers in terms of Moter Skills, Classroom Learning, and Jujutsu Sense" with an added note that the peers in question are: Yuji Itadori, Megumi Fushiguro, Nobara Kugisaki, Yuta Okkotsu, Maki Zenin, Toge Inumaki, Panda, Kinji Hakari, Mai Zenin, Kokichi Muta, Aoi Todo, Noritoshi Kamo, and Momo Nishimiya. Most of whom fall into the Gifted range.

None of them fall into gifted range for intelligence, you're referring to combat skill which we don't scale in intell anymore nor do we really know what they were learning given its a school for sorcerers not general study but I could've forgot maybe they do teach other stuff? Still Average should fit better, no reason to rate likely as she doesn't show much.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

In her weaknesses section, I added that after her binding vow, she can no longer use her katana.

This part makes no sense to include, since she only has no keys. If she had a "Post-Shibuya Incident" key, then sure, but this is just Miwa at her best.
If we were to include this, then Miwa would be a character who starts every fight with a Katana that she can't use.

If you want to make the argument that this is Showdown Miwa, then Katana would have to be removed from her standard equipment, as she doesn't have it and she also wouldn't have Batto Sword Drawing as part of her stats/techniques, as she can't do that anymore either.

 

[Arkenis]

I mean the page is for indexing but it is a mostly pointless weakness cuz atp the fight is over for her (why didn't they just give her a new cursed tool)

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I mean the page is for indexing but it is a mostly pointless weakness cuz atp the fight is over for her (why didn't they just give her a new cursed tool)

It's for indexing, but it also creates a contradiction even outside of VS threads, as she can't have both the weakness and also her Katana as standard equipment.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Should be superhuman. Sorcerers are kinda just superhuman, even taking into account varying feats of stamina, Miwa should be bare minimum above athletic humans given they routinely fight each other in training or fight against cursed spirits.


None of them fall into gifted range for intelligence, you're referring to combat skill which we don't scale in intell anymore nor do we really know what they were learning given its a school for sorcerers not general study but I could've forgot maybe they do teach other stuff? Still Average should fit better, no reason to rate likely as she doesn't show much.

Scans for the stamina bit?

As for the intel section, she's being compared on classroom learned, yes, but also on Moter skills and Jujutsu sense, which I do think refers to the listed characters combat/jujutsu skill.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

This part makes no sense to include, since she only has no keys. If she had a "Post-Shibuya Incident" key, then sure, but this is just Miwa at her best.
If we were to include this, then Miwa would be a character who starts every fight with a Katana that she can't use.

If you want to make the argument that this is Showdown Miwa, then Katana would have to be removed from her standard equipment, as she doesn't have it and she also wouldn't have Batto Sword Drawing as part of her stats/techniques, as she can't do that anymore either.

I'd be okay with making two keys, or just taking it out. Whatever is preferred.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I'd be okay with making two keys, or just taking it out. Whatever is preferred.

I have no opinion on either option, as they're both fine to me. If you think you could make a Goodwill Event to Shibuya Incident key and Post-Shibuya Incident key for Miwa and it actually makes sense to do, you can do that. Otherwise, if there isn't enough to justify two different keys, I'd be fine just removing the weakness.

Spoiler: Binding Vow Weakness?

I think it's also important to note that this is just a weakness of Binding Vows in general, as anyone could do something this stupid and deal with the results. So I guess a third option would be to list on every JJK profile (with Binding Vow) that depending on what kind of vow you make, you can cause permanent issues to yourself like losing the ability to use a sword (with Miwa scan as example). But idk if people would want that, so yeah.

 

[Arkenis]

Scans for the stamina bit?

Just look at any second grade or semi 1 grade sorcerer. Or the fact they train one another. She's trained by Kusakabe, learned new shadow style aka a domain. Should have good amounts of ce compared to others, just not good pain tolerance or mental stamina.

As for the intel section, she's being compared on classroom learned, yes, but also on Moter skills and Jujutsu sense, which I do think refers to the listed characters combat/jujutsu skill.

Yeah that's fine, we just don't index combat skill anymore, so she'd just be average.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I have no opinion on either option, as they're both fine to me. If you think you could make a Goodwill Event to Shibuya Incident key and Post-Shibuya Incident key for Miwa and it actually makes sense to do, you can do that. Otherwise, if there isn't enough to justify two different keys, I'd be fine just removing the weakness.

Spoiler: Binding Vow Weakness?

I think it's also important to note that this is just a weakness of Binding Vows in general, as anyone could do something this stupid and deal with the results. So I guess a third option would be to list on every JJK profile (with Binding Vow) that depending on what kind of vow you make, you can cause permanent issues to yourself like losing the ability to use a sword (with Miwa scan as example). But idk if people would want that, so yeah.

If a second key was made, it'd just be "Street level, same as before". The only difference would be the weakness and less hax (I'd remove weapon mastery and the new shadow style stuff). But yeah I'll do it if people want.

And I don't think listing a general binding vow weakness for like half the cast just because Miwa did something dumb is a good idea

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Just look at any second grade or semi 1 grade sorcerer. Or the fact they train one another. She's trained by Kusakabe, learned new shadow style aka a domain. Should have good amounts of ce compared to others, just not good pain tolerance or mental stamina.


Yeah that's fine, we just don't index combat skill anymore, so she'd just be average.

Miwa is not a 2nd or semi 1st grade sorcerer. Nor does she scale to Kusakabe. Does having enough cursed energy to make a simple domain make you superhuman?

I think I get what you're saying on the intel bit. I'll adjust my sandbox and crt

 

[Arkenis]

Miwa is not a 2nd or semi 1st grade sorcerer. Nor does she scale to Kusakabe. Does having enough cursed energy to make a simple domain make you superhuman?

I doubt she's far off from it. I'm not saying she scales to Kusakabe, just that it's not out of question training helped increase her stamina. A domain takes a lot of energy so yeah.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I doubt she's far off from it. I'm not saying she scales to Kusakabe, just that it's not out of question training helped increase her stamina. A domain takes a lot of energy so yeah.

She's a grade 3; if you think that gives her comparable stamina to grade 2s or semi grade 1s, you have to prove that (I could see her scaling to Nobara, another grade 3 who's at Superhuman already, but even then idk).
Yes, training would increase her stamina. Like an athlete.
Can you demonstrate a simple domain requiring a lot of stamina?

I'm not tryna be Source-Andy btw, I'd love to up her to Superhuman; but if I'm writing the justification I'll need a scans for it

 

[Arkenis]

Can you demonstrate a simple domain requiring a lot of stamina?

Compared to what exactly? It's a domain regardless of the name, so it takes a lot of energy even if not the same as DE.

I'm not tryna be Source-Andy btw, I'd love to up her to Superhuman; but if I'm writing the justification I'll need a scans for it

There's not much sourcing needed ngl, superhuman is often given to superhuman characters unless there's evidence against it. I'd say sorcerers are just generally more resilient due to ce reinforcement over the years, and she's been at it since she was 12 iirc.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Compared to what exactly? It's a domain regardless of the name, so it takes a lot of energy even if not the same as DE.


There's not much sourcing needed ngl, superhuman is often given to superhuman characters unless there's evidence against it. I'd say sorcerers are just generally more resilient due to ce reinforcement over the years, and she's been at it since she was 12 iirc.

So something like. "Superhuman (Sorcerers are just generally more resilient due to ce reinforcement over many years. Capable of using simple domain."

 

[Rogue_Forge]

I kinda disagree, but only because I think Nobara should be higher than what she's at rn

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I kinda disagree, but only because I think Nobara should be higher than what she's at rn

Me too! But it's dumb for them to be different tiers, upgrading grade 3s is a CRT for another time

 

[DcDoesPhysics]

Me too! But it's dumb for them to be different tiers, upgrading grade 3s is a CRT for another time

whats wrong with her current placement? Id say its fairly fair

 

[KnightDark_990]

The profile is good, but I disagree with the subsonic level. Subsonic is the level of a human Naoya, and characters like Hakari couldn't perceive a 0.01-second interval, among other limitations below subsonic. I don't see the reason to scale her to this level.

Edit: I'm new here, I just decided to say what I think.

 

[OmenISTIRED]

Why is Nobara Street Level??

Isn't there a listed feat of a Grade 2 Curse busting through a wall that's rated at Small Building? Nobara and Miwa being Grade 3 should mean they are more or less comparable to a Grade 2 Curse so they both should be Small Building.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

whats wrong with her current placement? Id say its fairly fair

Vibes

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Why is Nobara Street Level??

Isn't there a listed feat of a Grade 2 Curse busting through a wall that's rated at Small Building? Nobara and Miwa being Grade 3 should mean they are more or less comparable to a Grade 2 Curse so they both should be Small Building.

Gang this isn't a Nobara thread, I'm just trying to keep the inverse scaling consistent

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I don't believe we have a scale for semi grade 2 curses

Also, I address this in the OP. This is how the wiki currently scales things, not my own view.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

The profile is good, but I disagree with the subsonic level. Subsonic is the level of a human Naoya, and characters like Hakari couldn't perceive a 0.01-second interval, among other limitations below subsonic. I don't see the reason to scale her to this level.

Edit: I'm new here, I just decided to say what I think.

Miwa is subsonic via downscaling Maki, as explained in the OP. If you don't think Maki should be subsonic, make a CRT

 

[KnightDark_990]

Miwa is subsonic via downscaling Maki, as explained in the OP. If you don't think Maki should be subsonic, make a CRT

Maki, who wasn't even fighting at full strength, still showed an abysmal difference between the two. And I don't even need a CRT; the narrative already limited her by presenting characters HH who barely perceive a 0.01-second interval, or Naoya's subsonic speedblitz Yuji and Choso, unless you consider her on the same level as Naoya.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Maki, who wasn't even fighting at full strength, still showed an abysmal difference between the two. And I don't even need a CRT; the narrative already limited her by presenting characters HH who barely perceive a 0.01-second interval, or Naoya's subsonic speedblitz Yuji and Choso, unless you consider her on the same level as Naoya.

No you need a CRT if you want to change a character's scaling. But Miwa not scaling to Maki is reasonable, considering I used similar logic in AP. Dropping her to Superhuman (still scaling from Nobara).

 

[Lilybitdun]

Miwa my goat
Looks good

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Bump

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Bump

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I don't think there should be a key split. Literally none of her stats or abilities change (its not like she suddenly loses her skill with a katana even if technically she cant use it) and we see her use simple domain after to save Maki from Sukuna's domain. The only difference would be just her not having a Katana which I don't think is enough to warrant another key. Perhaps just a note at the bottom of the profile saying if she has the katana not I guess but that's the most I'd say because again apart from that nothing changes with her

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I don't think there should be a key split. Literally none of her stats or abilities change (its not like she suddenly loses her skill with a katana even if technically she cant use it) and we see her use simple domain after to save Maki from Sukuna's domain. The only difference would be just her not having a Katana which I don't think is enough to warrant another key. Perhaps just a note at the bottom of the profile saying if she has the katana not I guess but that's the most I'd say because again apart from that nothing changes with her

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! The split is just for accuracy's sake. Not being able to use her sword significantly worsens her power/hax, even if technically her tier shouldn't change. It felt weird to omit that current Miwa can't use her primary weapon.

You're right on that she can still use simple domain, I'll add that to the profile. Though I doubt she could still use new shadow style and what not. (Also even if she still knows how, if she can't do it, it shouldn't be on her profile as a thing she can do. Which goes for NSS, and Weapon mastery in general)

Were those you're only contentions with the CRT?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! The split is just for accuracy's sake. Not being able to use her sword significantly worsens her power/hax, even if technically her tier shouldn't change. It felt weird to omit that current Miwa can't use her primary weapon.

You're right on that she can still use simple domain, I'll add that to the profile. Though I doubt she could still use new shadow style and what not. (Also even if she still knows how, if she can't do it, it shouldn't be on her profile as a thing she can do. Which goes for NSS, and Weapon mastery in general)

Were those you're only contentions with the CRT?

Yeah that was basically it. Anyways the rework should be fine at least from what I can tell considering some abilities would likely get taken out cause she can't use a katana so fair.

 

[Legion350]

The rework looks pretty good! I also don’t think it needs more than just a note, since not much changed.

With SBA when someone uses her in a thread, they’ll just need to specify she if she is able to use a katana or not [affected by the binding vow].

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

The rework looks pretty good! I also don’t think it needs more than just a note, since not much changed.

With SBA when someone uses her in a thread, they’ll just need to specify she if she is able to use a katana or not [affected by the binding vow].

Thanks for the input. A note could work, but I still prefer two keys FRA. I honestly do think it's a significant enough change in power to warrant two keys, she's losing nearly half her hax

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Biiiig bump

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Bump

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Isn't one staff agreeing enough?

 

[Cipher72]

Looks good

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Isn't one staff agreeing enough?

Major change for a minor character, major verse. I'm looking for two. But hell I'll implement changes now if I can lol