Major MCU Speed Downgrade: Far From Bullet Speeds

[Da3ggman]

Agree FRA, unfortunate that my GOAT cap is reduced to such a state but it is what it is.

 

[Lacku]

So was mhs sliding hawkeye

Yeah but tbf the MHS scaling has been around for so long I never really questioned it.

 

[MountainWine]

I always found it weird that the Punisher is rated MHS+ despite the fact he constantly gets tagged by normal mobsters throughout his own show and Daredevil.

Also, Daredevil gets held at gunpoint (more like 2 meters) by Punisher and gets shot in Their fight

 

[Dalesean027]

Is there a plan to recalc this or would the new version fall under the outlier criteria?

I'd hardly call the one that exist a proper calc to begin considering its entirely guesswork and assumptions with no proper px scaling but an attempt was made actually to recalc it which basically was like got close to 300m/s which was in that outlier territory unfortunately

 

[M3X_2.0]

Using visuals and cinematic timing/pacing aren't the best arguments tbh, especially when Simon Kinberg (Quicksilver feats), Eric Pearson (Sentry feat) and the Russo Brothers (MCU overall) are completely different writers and as such, depict speed differently. But the anti-feats are just very blatant unfortunately. Atleast JJK only gotta deal with statements

Visuals are 100% valid and it’s the main core of this thread. Thor has been written and directed by multiple different people and they all do the same thing where he’s comparable to everyone else.

The fact that there is only a difference in speed when a speedster is involved is enough to tell you that these characters are not operating at high speed.

Also, movies in general are a visual medium. Quicksilver is a supersonic character and moves at supersonic speeds on screen. That’s an obvious and reliable argument to make.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah, the "different writers, different interpretations" arguments really fall apart here when every writer just....portrays their speed the same. If anything, this thread of anti-feats has shown how consistent the MCU writers are with how the interpret the speed of these characters more than anything else. It's not like Cap is getting tagged by bullets while dodging light or some shit in the next few movies. Him and the rest of the cast are constantly being shown to be significantly slower and pressured by sound-based and supersonic projectiles

 

[Dalesean027]

pressured by sound-based and supersonic projectiles

Hulk, Spider-Man, etc..

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Well damn, this thread is really well made. Honestly iffy about about a couple of arguments but I ultimately agree with the downgrades.

 

[Saqphire]

It's not like Cap is getting tagged by bullets while dodging light or some shit in the next few movies. Him and the rest of the cast are constantly being shown to be significantly slower and pressured by sound-based and supersonic projectiles

Yeah obviously (despite some of the feats that would be outliers like Hela for example), that's why I mentioned the anti-feats being blatant here. All I simply mentioned was that trying to use Sentry as an argument to debunk Carol's combat speed wouldn't work because Sentry and Carol are written by two different writers who depict high paced combat speed differently; it'd work better if it was Quicksilver compared to Jean here since it's the same writer and thus the same idea of how combat speed is portrayed.

Visuals are 100% valid and it’s the main core of this thread. Thor has been written and directed by multiple different people and they all do the same thing where he’s comparable to everyone else.

The fact that there is only a difference in speed when a speedster is involved is enough to tell you that these characters are not operating at high speed.

Also, movies in general are a visual medium. Quicksilver is a supersonic character and moves at supersonic speeds on screen. That’s an obvious and reliable argument to make.

Nobody said visuals aren't valid overall, otherwise no movie would be able to be calced and that's absurd. I was simply mentioning how pacing isn't the best argument due to cinematic timing (I personally even disagree with using pacing of one character to debunk the speed of another in the same fight/scenario as that can easily be flipped around), but it still works here due to consistency overall.

 

[Dinobot1996]

This Subsonic+ calculation for Steve Rogers, if accurate, is probably too high to fit the new scaling, though this other instance of him avoiding gunfire in the same scene might be able to get more reasonable results, considering the greater distance involved.

 

[Dalesean027]

This Subsonic+ calculation for Steve Rogers, if accurate, is probably too high to fit the new scaling, though this other instance of him avoiding gunfire in the same scene might be able to get more reasonable results, considering the greater distance involved.

No offense but a lot of Spino's calcs are outdated and unfit by our current calcs standards, this isn't even close to sub+ but I can do a recalc in my new blog

 

[Dinobot1996]

Fair enough, I was mainly trying to see if there if there were more existing speed calculations that might've gotten lost in the shuffle for being too low to support MHS+ scaling.

 

[Lonkitt]

This Subsonic+ calculation for Steve Rogers, if accurate, is probably too high to fit the new scaling, though this other instance of him avoiding gunfire in the same scene might be able to get more reasonable results, considering the greater distance involved.

Honestly, Spino's calcs are either inflated (like his MCU calcs) or WAAAAAAY lower than they should be (like the FOX Quicksilver mansion feat)

 

[Chritin]

Do we have enough agreements to accept this? I know some people have conjecture but it seems minor and not holistically against the thread.

 

[Lonkitt]

Do we have enough agreements to accept this? I know some people have conjecture but it seems minor and not holistically against the thread.

We definitely have enough agreements. We just need to wait for the thread to have been up for more than 48 hours

 

[M3X_2.0]

There's people working on a response

 

[Dalesean027]

Fair enough, I was mainly trying to see if there if there were more existing speed calculations that might've gotten lost in the shuffle for being too low to support MHS+ scaling.

You're all good, I'd still say its worth looking for so we can at least review and correct calcs like that that have been missed

 

[Isaacbobanka]

I have some complaints about this:

1. Quicksilver is from age of ultron only the second Avengers movie while the rest of the scaling comes after that so i don't see how it would affect every character in MCU even the top tiers who gets progressivly faster later on. 2. How does lower feats like subsonic limit their speed? While more feats might be subsonic i see no reason for the entire verse all the way from street tiers to characters like Thor and Captain marvel be downgraded to sub sonic because low tiers have more sub sonic feats now.

Edit: I can see street tier characters that had massivly hypersonic get downgraded but not high tiers.


2. The scenes of them being held at gun point is the showcase that they do not understand physics yes. This is the reason for my argument as being held by gun point do not limit they're capabilites to dodge attacks and is of no reason why higher reaction speed feats should be ignored. Just like any other verse we should still scale their speed to their capabilites not what the writers think of their speed which is why visual scaling makes zero sense.

 

[Dalesean027]

Will address when im off work unless someone else gets to it first but thse have some simple answers

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I have some complaints about this:

1. Quicksilver is from age of ultron only the second Avengers movie while the rest of the scaling comes after that so i don't see how it would affect every character in MCU even the top tiers who gets progressivly faster later on. 2. How does lower feats like subsonic limit their speed? While more feats might be subsonic i see no reason for the entire verse all the way from street tiers to characters like Thor and Captain marvel be downgraded to sub sonic because low tiers have more sub sonic feats now.

Edit: I can see street tier characters that had massivly hypersonic get downgraded but not high tiers.

The problem is that these street tiers are also shown capable of combating these higher tiers, with no large difference in pure speed.

2. The scenes of them being held at gun point is the showcase that they do not understand physics yes. This is the reason for my argument as being held by gun point do not limit they're capabilites to dodge attacks and is of no reason why higher reaction speed feats should be ignored. Just like any other verse we should still scale their speed to their capabilites not what the writers think of their speed which is why visual scaling makes zero sense.

I'm kind of confused about what your counter argument is, tbh.

 

[M3X_2.0]

1. Quicksilver is from age of ultron only the second Avengers movie while the rest of the scaling comes after that so i don't see how it would affect every character in MCU even the top tiers who gets progressivly faster later on.

You've got to prove these characters become massively fast to the point of surpassing Quicksilver's speed. There was never a gap in speed between these top tiers, Thor, Hela, Thanos, none of them showed a speed gap between each other, never. And to make it worse, Captain America, who maintains the same speed since his first appearence, keeps up with both Iron Man and Thor against Thanos. In the final battle we see everyone moving at the same speed with no difference at all between these characters.

2. How does lower feats like subsonic limit their speed? While more feats might be subsonic i see no reason for the entire verse all the way from street tiers to characters like Thor and Captain marvel be downgraded to sub sonic because low tiers have more sub sonic feats now.

Read the thread. What limits their speed is Quicksilver. He is only supersonic, period. That's not gonna change. If these characters are statued by someone who is supersonic, then they are slow and limited to a certain level.

Edit: I can see street tier characters that had massivly hypersonic get downgraded but not high tiers.

Both will be downgraded because the MHS+ feats are unusable because all you guys did over the years was scaling characters to flight speed acting like this represents their combat speed, despite the disconnection between how they fight and flight, again, showcased on the OP.

2. The scenes of them being held at gun point is the showcase that they do not understand physics yes. This is the reason for my argument as being held by gun point do not limit they're capabilites to dodge attacks and is of no reason why higher reaction speed feats should be ignored. Just like any other verse we should still scale their speed to their capabilites not what the writers think of their speed which is why visual scaling makes zero sense.

This is the most insane, dogshit argument I've probably ever seen in this wiki. So the authors don't understand physics, but Isaacbobanka does? And what physics is that? Authors would be wrong if the characters they write perform different (higher or slower) feats than what they say. That's not the case. We see Joss Whedon, the Age Of Ultron director, explicitly say that Quicksilver is as fast, or almost as fast as a bullet. A different in-verse statement put him at 400 m/s. You're not ditching statements from the authors because you think they are wrong.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

The problem is that these street tiers are also shown capable of combating these higher tiers, with no large difference in pure speed.

A few moments in the first avengers movies but characters like Thor show somewhat consistent atleast lighting speed feats scaling from his opponents who scales to his lighting attacks. This is just one exampel but for the most part this is mostly showed in the Avengers movies which also makes this hard in the later movies were high tiers like thor and captain marvel fight non street tier characters while showing high level speed feats.

I'm kind of confused about what your counter argument is, tbh.

This was from a previous comment but basically it im critizing using moment were the story (as being held by gun point) is used as a downgrade when most writer lack the knowlage about a characters speed feat. This specially when a character in the same movie later performs feats well above subsonic.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

You've got to prove these characters become massively fast to the point of surpassing Quicksilver's speed. There was never a gap in speed between these top tiers, Thor, Hela, Thanos, none of them showed a speed gap between each other, never. And to make it worse, Captain America, who maintains the same speed since his first appearence, keeps up with both Iron Man and Thor against Thanos. In the final battle we see everyone moving at the same speed with no difference at all between these characters.

I have not done reserch for all of them but for example Thor had his power awakend which also changes in his profile which in the movie is explained as a gain in power.

Read the thread. What limits their speed is Quicksilver. He is only supersonic, period. That's not gonna change. If these characters are statued by someone who is supersonic, then they are slow and limited to a certain level.

They are not "statued" they are slowed and this along with everything else has inconistancies as shown here he freezes the attack of iron man who has light speed attack speed in the same fight instance with other moments were he suddenly is much faster it seems more like the time he died by bullets is the only thing inconstant. This is also well supported as he also slows down mjolnir and other avengers and the fact that he had NO struggle to dodge bullets in the same movie.

Both will be downgraded because the MHS+ feats are unusable because all you guys did over the years was scaling characters to flight speed acting like this represents their combat speed, despite the disconnection between how they fight and flight, again, showcased on the OP.

Even if all were downgrade later movies should still count for upgrades for atleast high tiers as some show gain in power as i mentioned above.

This is the most insane, dogshit argument I've probably ever seen in this wiki. So the authors don't understand physics, but Isaacbobanka does? And what physics is that? Authors would be wrong if the characters they write perform different (higher or slower) feats than what they say. That's not the case. We see Joss Whedon, the Age Of Ultron director, explicitly say that Quicksilver is as fast, or almost as fast as a bullet. A different in-verse statement put him at 400 m/s. You're not ditching statements from the authors because you think they are wrong.

Again as i showed you before quicksilver actually dodged a bullet without difficulty which if he was the same speed would struggle with not to mention other feats saying otherwise. Its not an insane argument because thats what actually happens the writers state that he can only move at 400 m/s yet he still shows higher speed.

Secondly no i am not saying i personally know better i am saying that his feats does. His feats / what he accomplish is far more important than a director who can't make up his mind if we look at his feats.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

There are also more feats from quicksilver like here he sees a bullet slow down which again questions the fact that he moves at sub sonic or 400 m/s or the glass shattering in slowmotion which is something done at 1458 m/s which he viewd at slow motion

 

[MaskedDragon908]

There are also more feats from quicksilver like here he sees a bullet slow down which again questions the fact that he moves at sub sonic or 400 m/s or the glass shattering in slowmotion which is something done at 1458 m/s which he viewd at slow motion

Oh.
So you actually didn't bother reading the Revision thread.
The creators of this thread really put in a lot of work, just for you to ignore it, huh?
Masked will go ahead and post the relevant part for you.

Quicksilver casually perceives bullet in slow-motion - Mach 179 (Massively Hypersonic)

• Like the previous Quicksilver calc, this specifically does not take into where WoG places Quicksilver with consistent statements but also fails to take into account that there are factors such as the bullet hitting a very resistant glass and making it lose speed, whilst also already having Hawkeye potentially using an already slower munition than usual.

 

[Dalesean027]

A few moments in the first avengers movies but characters like Thor show somewhat consistent atleast lighting speed feats scaling from his opponents who scales to his lighting attacks

Dude Thor doesn't even have a supersonic flight speed feat in the first avengers movie let alone a applicable combat and reactions MHS one. Any "scaling" you're bringing is the product wiki made calcs and not actual narrative and on screen visuals.

This was from a previous comment but basically it im critizing using moment were the story (as being held by gun point) is used as a downgrade when most writer lack the knowlage about a characters speed feat. This specially when a character in the same movie later performs feats well above subsonic.

Dawg they are the one's who established the universe's story and scaling how are you arguing the writers and directors are ignorant to the stuff they wrote or shot, if they wanted to give these guys insane reaction and combat feats and have them bullet timing or slow motion blitzing dudes they would do that but clearly they don't and make obvious distinctions for those who do operate at high speeds i.e Quicksilver, Makkari, Sentry.

I have not done reserch for all of them but for example Thor had his power awakend which also changes in his profile which in the movie is explained as a gain in power

Prove that provides a canonical speed amp?

They are not "statued" they are slowed and this along with everything else has inconistancies as shown here he freezes the attack of iron man who has light speed attack speed in the same fight instance with other moments were he suddenly is much faster it seems more like the time he died by bullets is the only thing inconstant. This is also well supported as he also slows down mjolnir and other avengers and the fact that he had NO struggle to dodge bullets in the same movie.

The laser in this scene is from an Ultron Sentry and its not accepted as being SoL and regardless if Quicksilver is Supersonic and Thor is subsonic this still supports the thread? Thor still has motion in his view which isn't inconsistent to how they'd relate speed wise, he's still far slower than Quicksilver.

Also quicksilver got tagged by bullets twice in this movie, we literally accept the 400m/s scan on his profile right now, and the director says he's bullet speed. Those are far more consistent than what you're arguing.

Even if all were downgrade later movies should still count for upgrades for atleast high tiers as some show gain in power as i mentioned above.

M3X just explained why that's not the case

 

[Isaacbobanka]

The argument for

Oh.
So you actually didn't bother reading the Revision thread.
The creators of this thread really put in a lot of work, just for you to ignore it, huh?
Masked will go ahead and post the relevant part for you.

Quicksilver casually perceives bullet in slow-motion - Mach 179 (Massively Hypersonic)

• Like the previous Quicksilver calc, this specifically does not take into where WoG places Quicksilver with consistent statements but also fails to take into account that there are factors such as the bullet hitting a very resistant glass and making it lose speed, whilst also already having Hawkeye potentially using an already slower munition than usual.

I inclduded this becuase of something that i would post now actually.

The WoG statment does not indicate his speed in the end of the movie but rather in the beginning as showed by this statment Quicksilvers speed increases everyday and when he was containd by Hydra his speed was 400 m/s but his speed increased after that as it suggested. This is why his feats should count and the Iron man feat for exampel along with his bullet one.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I have not done reserch for all of them but for example Thor had his power awakend which also changes in his profile which in the movie is explained as a gain in power.

Prove their speed increased, I don't think I have to explain to you that this is how it works.

They are not "statued" they are slowed and this along with everything else has inconistancies as shown here he freezes the attack of iron man who has light speed attack speed in the same fight instance with other moments were he suddenly is much faster it seems more like the time he died by bullets is the only thing inconstant. This is also well supported as he also slows down mjolnir and other avengers and the fact that he had NO struggle to dodge bullets in the same movie.

Yes they are statued, Captain America doesn't move at all, the only one slightly moving is Thor. Not gonna lie I laughed hard reading that you legit thought Quicksilver saw a lightspeed attack in slow motion. No, that's not light speed. This ain't the lightspeed laser listed on his profile. Quicksilver has always been relative to bullets, this doesn't mean he's slower, we're actually scaling him much faster than bullets, like 3 times possibly. So no, this is a nonargument and you fail to realize that this is not Iron Man's SoL attack.

Even if all were downgrade later movies should still count for upgrades for atleast high tiers as some show gain in power as i mentioned above.

Nope.

Again as i showed you before quicksilver actually dodged a bullet without difficulty which if he was the same speed would struggle with not to mention other feats saying otherwise. Its not an insane argument because thats what actually happens the writers state that he can only move at 400 m/s yet he still shows higher speed.

Secondly no i am not saying i personally know better i am saying that his feats does. His feats / what he accomplish is far more important than a director who can't make up his mind if we look at his feats.

Brother pay attention to what I'm writing and READ THE THREAD. ******* hell, no one said Quicksilver has difficulties reacting to bullets, holy hell.

 

[MaskedDragon908]

I inclduded this becuase of something that i would post now actually.

The WoG statment does not indicate his speed in the end of the movie but rather in the beginning as showed by this statment Quicksilvers speed increases everyday and when he was containd by Hydra his speed was 400 m/s but his speed increased after that as it suggested. This is why his feats should count and the Iron man feat for exampel along with his bullet one.

So.
You used a bullet feat with poor legitimacy
To uh
Prove that his speed increases enough that he can dodge light?

Masked will be real with you.
Even in this hypothetical scenario, using a bullet feat to justify Speed of Light scaling is never going to work.

"it seems more like the time he died by bullets is the only thing inconstant."

Quicksilver is constantly comparable to bullets in this movie, whether you like it or not.
They still move somewhat relative to his movement.
Your main problem is that you are trying to fight the franchise itself, since it seems hellbent on giving characters guns.
The sheer volume of anti-feats is something you can't fight with one-off outliers.

Masked will stop posting for now.
They only posted the first part because asking the thread creator to respond to something that was already addressed seemed
well
awful.

 

[Dalesean027]

Despite your current points you still fail to realize or address or understand that the calcs in the op just are completely unusable with the current justifications despite any arguments on anti-feats or visuals or anything else. Like even IF we didn't include any of that those calcs still aren't justified for usage. I wish you'd actually read that stuff to understand why they functionally just don't work as is for justifications currently.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Dude Thor doesn't even have a supersonic flight speed feat in the first avengers movie let alone a applicable combat and reactions MHS one. Any "scaling" you're bringing is the product wiki made calcs and not actual narrative and on screen visuals.
Dawg they are the one's who established the universe's story and scaling how are you arguing the writers and directors are ignorant to the stuff they wrote or shot, if they wanted to give these guys insane reaction and combat feats and have them bullet timing or slow motion blitzing dudes they would do that but clearly they don't and make obvious distinctions for those who do operate at high speeds i.e Quicksilver, Makkari, Sentry.

Im not saying they are ignorant but rather not aware of the problem. Writers are not powerscales they do not care if thor fights the same opponent as Captain America aslong as its a good story.

Yet they do Quicksilver does have 2 feats were he reacts to bullet and the only one were he dosen't seems to be taken out context.

Prove that provides a canonical speed amp?

The best argument so far is before he awakend he barley keept up with hela but after he showed far faster attacks. I do think there is better arguments for this tho.

The laser in this scene is from an Ultron Sentry and its not accepted as being SoL and regardless if Quicksilver is Supersonic and Thor is subsonic this still supports the thread? Thor still has motion in his view which isn't inconsistent to how they'd relate speed wise, he's still far slower than Quicksilver.

Ultron sentry made from Iron man with his technology and its still an energy blast being slowed.

Also quicksilver got tagged by bullets twice in this movie, we literally accept the 400m/s scan on his profile right now, and the director says he's bullet speed. Those are far more consistent than what you're arguing.

No as i also linked there is an explanation to these statments and why they are from his times in hydra. Two statments vs an a feat with a accepted calc and him actually showing speeds far faster makes it less consistant.

M3X just explained why that's not the case

Having high tiers being scaled to the speed of low tiers based on a few instances and some visual moments seems extremly vague specially when it basically inludes the entire verse. While they do fight alongside in the Avengers movies there are still more movies and feats outside of them. Quicksilver is a one moment and sentry while showing speeds above street tiers is already explained above the rest of the avengers so using him seems odd.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Despite your current points you still fail to realize or address or understand that the calcs in the op just are completely unusable with the current justifications despite any arguments on anti-feats or visuals or anything else. Like even IF we didn't include any of that those calcs still aren't justified for usage. I wish you'd actually read that stuff to understand why they functionally just don't work as is for justifications currently.

I did and the Quicksilver calc can be used. The director statments talk about 400 m/s but this is at the beginning of the movie not when he slows down the Avengers. It also explains that he closes to light speed and that his speed increases by the day meaing he could be far faster when slowing the Avengers. Which is why the calc should be used he has increased speed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Having high tiers being scaled to the speed of low tiers based on a few instances and some visual moments seems extremly vague

Few instances? None of the top tiers ever showed super speed like Sentry did, Thor was always relative to Captain America. Always was and we will see them relative again very soon.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Quicksilver calc can be used

It can't. It's wrong.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

Yes they are statued, Captain America doesn't move at all, the only one slightly moving is Thor. Not gonna lie I laughed hard reading that you legit thought Quicksilver saw a lightspeed attack in slow motion. No, that's not light speed. This ain't the lightspeed laser listed on his profile. Quicksilver has always been relative to bullets, this doesn't mean he's slower, we're actually scaling him much faster than bullets, like 3 times possibly. So no, this is a nonargument and you fail to realize that this is not Iron Man's SoL attack.

Im not gonna bother with your other argument because you clearly cannot control your temper but you are a calc memeber and i know for a fact that if someone can freeze a person who moves according to the new speed somewhere around 35 m/s they are far above 400 m/s or anything even close to sonic speeds.

 

[Isaacbobanka]

It can't. It's wrong.

I showed a statment of why his speed is far faster so the feat in question can still be used and if it was calced wrong then it should be recalced

 

[M3X_2.0]

Im not gonna bother with your other argument because you clearly cannot control your temper but you are a calc memeber and i know for a fact that if someone can freeze a person who moves according to the new speed somewhere around 35 m/s they are far above 400 m/s or anything even close to sonic speeds.

Oh you better bother because if you keep ignoring me we will just close the thread and apply everything cause you simply refuse to read the thread and engage with arguments. And what did I do? Call your argument stupid? Tell you to read the thread? You again proving you haven't read the thread. You do realize we're scaling Quicksilver to Mach 1.8, aka 633.87 m/s, right?

I showed a statment of why his speed is far faster so the feat in question can still be used and if it was calced wrong then it should be recalced

We're not scaling Quicksilver to that calc because that's a perception only feat. He doesn't even move. The bullet loses a lot of speed after breaking through a walkable glass and Pietro doesn't seem to react quick enough to move away from the glass.

 

[Sparkive]

I don't know what to think about the downgrade (tentatively agree), but I'm here to say one thing.
I don't think this example works.

But he's much much slower when fighting:

The Iron Man from Civil War spends the entire movie in a limited, active noncombatant armor, far inferior to his previous or future suits.
And it's reasonable that the AP isn't the only thing affected.

The others examples are fine.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Any other example of Iron Man fighting works regardless, because he isn't fighting at the same speeds he fly.

 

[Sparkive]

Any other example of Iron Man fighting works regardless, because he isn't fighting at the same speeds he fly.

Yes, I agree with that, I'm just saying that that specific one is wrong.