A Huge Overhaul on Alien X's and Celestialsapiens' Pages (Heavy Downgrades) and Some Additions

[Lort15]

I mentioned this with every aspects in the thread

i've mentioned it because somehow that part of him destroying everyone in intangible form wasn't mentioned on the profile also you need some NPI to interact with intangible species even if it is ee i guess, no?
idk if universal destruction covers it as well

 

[KaramcaS]

Wow holy thread

 

[Hellformer]

I mean, I already pointed these things in the thread, main problem; they not talking about "embodying" something, they just talking about "personalities" which is irrelevant to AE1 stuff, also they doesn't have some abilities due they "embodying" something required by Abstract Existence;

He can regenerate his avatar via the said abstractions, I still don't see any issue with it

 

[jgms2008]

He will be 10-B if this thread passes.

Nothing left for the brutal beta.

 

[Aolphl]

snip

I edited the thread (although one day late), so we can continue now. Also, if I did something wrong, inform me!

i've mentioned it because somehow that part of him destroying everyone in intangible form wasn't mentioned on the profile also you need some NPI to interact with intangible species even if it is ee i guess, no?
idk if universal destruction covers it as well

If Existence Erasure is some type of conventional attacks (such as energy blasts or just "touching"), this gives NPI, but just "thinking", no. But if Existence Erasure covers independent things (Concept Type 1, Info Type 2), this still gives NPI, I guess

He can regenerate his avatar via the said abstractions, I still don't see any issue with it

Where stated or showed they regenerating themselves thanks to their "abstractions"?

 

[Hellformer]

Where stated or showed they regenerating themselves thanks to their "abstractions"?

You do know that the avatars are completely under control of their minds which embody Love and Rage right? So wdym by "prove" they regenerate via it? That's just how the Celestialsapien avatars work. Without the minds, they're useless puppets with insane durability.

 

[Planck69]

I'll go through the thread in depth later on but yeah, any ability that is solely there via destroying/erasing the cosmology should go. "And everything in it" is also an incredibly common turn of phrase as well for total destruction of a place/space so that alone isn't enough to grant individual abilities.

 

[Lort15]

I edited the thread (although one day late), so we can continue now. Also, if I did something wrong, inform me!

If Existence Erasure is some type of conventional attacks (such as energy blasts or just "touching"), this gives NPI, but just "thinking", no. But if Existence Erasure covers independent things (Concept Type 1, Info Type 2), this still gives NPI, I guess

Where stated or showed they regenerating themselves thanks to their "abstractions"?

btw could you make the regen rating "likely" instead of "possibly" the regeneration is more consistent than the others due to previous regen feat and we don't have much way to adress it as well also a note that why it is likely instead of a fully rating, i think it should be adressed that if the OP isn't gonna use high regen for the VS thread then they must go with the other approved method. We have Avatar creation and regeneration right?

 

[Aolphl]

You do know that the avatars are completely under control of their minds which embody Love and Rage right? So wdym by "prove" they regenerate via it? That's just how the Celestialsapien avatars work. Without the minds, they're useless puppets with insane durability.

Celestialsapiens' using Avatars to interact with the World, if their body is gone and they still need to interact with the World, of course they will regenerate their body which is not because they "Embodying Love & Rage", they just need to interact with something aka World.

And again, Serena's and Bellicus's statements is nothing to do with AE1, they just talking about "personalities", not "Embodying" something

I'll go through the thread in depth later on but yeah, any ability that is solely there via destroying/erasing the cosmology should go. "And everything in it" is also an incredibly common turn of phrase as well for total destruction of a place/space so that alone isn't enough to grant individual abilities.

Thanks!! I guess this topic opened to discuss this

btw could you make the regen rating "likely" instead of "possibly" the regeneration is more consistent than the others due to previous regen feat and we don't have much way to adress it as well also a note that why it is likely instead of a fully rating, i think it should be adressed that if the OP isn't gonna use high regen for the VS thread then they must go with the other approved method. We have Avatar creation and regeneration right?

I will change the rating to "likely"

 

[Hellformer]

Celestialsapiens' using Avatars to interact with the World, if their body is gone and they still need to interact with the World, of course they will regenerate their body which is not because they "Embodying Love & Rage", they just need to interact with something aka World.

Yeah, how does that dismiss them regenerating via their abstraction that embody love and rage?

And again, Serena's and Bellicus's statements is nothing to do with AE1, they just talking about "personalities", not "Embodying" something

I already explained my argument for embodiment, please check that out

 

[Reiner04]

"And everything in it" is also an incredibly common turn of phrase as well for total destruction of a place/space so that alone isn't enough to grant individual abilities.

That statement was made many times in the show along with destruction of the Universe. "The Universe and everything in it was destroyed". "Did you really think you can escape when you utilized your celestialsapien form Alien X to recreate the entire Universe and everything in it". "I couldn't save the Universe and everything in it". If it was just about universe, i don't see the relevance of persistently making it clear that it was not just the universe but everything in it too that was destroyed. It was not just mentioned by ben, or court, but Celestialsapiens themseleves who are nigh-Omniscient and thus, the most crediable source of information in the Ben 10 franchise. Annhilargh created entirety of Ben 10 Universe including Manna, souls and everything, we know it since nothing existed b4 it, so it is not far stretched that it indeed have same capabilities for its destruction aspects when there are implications (celestialsapiens themselves at that). Not to mention Gwen is an Anodite, she doesn't need a body to survive and can exist as pure Manna (type 1 concept) but she was erased since we visibly see the earth being erased with nothing survived.

 

[Aolphl]

Yeah, how does that dismiss them regenerating via their abstraction that embody love and rage?

Cuz they need regenerate themselves (aka Green Heads) which is they don't doing. Celestialsapiens' bodies (which is their Avatars) is just puppet which they regenerating, but they don't doing themselves. These cases would grant them AE1;
Immortality: "You can't destroy me because I'm Rage!"
Regeneration: "I regenerated myself because I'm Love!"
Misc;
Nigh-Omnipresent: "I live everywhere thanks to where Love exist!"
Weakness: "I'm losing my stability existence due your Ragecy attacks!"
Controlling the Abstraction: "I can control your Ragecy-Emotions because I'm the Rage!"
Another controlling the Abstraction: "When I come here, people started fighting due my present, because I'm Rage itself!"
These cases/examples (and many more ways) can grant them AE but non of them doing or causing these things, this is why they disqualifies having AE1 (don't get hung up on first-person singular pronouns; these can be expanded upon)

I already explained my argument for embodiment, please check that out

I did, but this is not enough for AE1

 

[Planck69]

That statement was made many times in the show along with destruction of the Universe. "The Universe and everything in it was destroyed". "Did you really think you can escape when you utilized your celestialsapien form Alien X to recreate the entire Universe and everything in it". "I couldn't save the Universe and everything in it". If it was just about universe, i don't see the relevance of persistently making it clear that it was not just the universe but everything in it too that was destroyed. It was not just mentioned by ben, or court, but Celestialsapiens themseleves who are nigh-Omniscient and thus, the most crediable source of information in the Ben 10 franchise. Annhilargh created entirety of Ben 10 Universe including Manna, souls and everything, we know it since nothing existed b4 it, so it is not far stretched that it indeed have same capabilities for its destruction aspects when there are implications (celestialsapiens themselves at that). Not to mention Gwen is an Anodite, she doesn't need a body to survive and can exist as pure Manna (type 1 concept) but she was erased since we visibly see the earth being erased with nothing survived.

Because again, it's an incredibly common turn of phrase for total annihilation that's not unique to Ben 10 either. This phrase being repeated again and again doesn't change that cause the issue was never a lack of enough times this is said. It is a phrase that implies destruction. But our standards need specific demonstration/mention of metaphysical aspects being destroyed as well.

Our standards are also clear on this regarding creation feats as well. If they specifically specified or demonstrated metaphysical creation then sure, but without that they're only going to be granted Space-time Manipulation by default and nothing else through just inference of being part of the cosmology.

 

[Aolphl]

Snip

So do you think the abilities mentioned in this section should be removed?;

Other Some "destroying" and "creating" Abilities​

 

[Reiner04]

Because again, it's an incredibly common turn of phrase for total annihilation that's not unique to Ben 10 either. This phrase being repeated again and again doesn't change that cause the issue was never a lack of enough times this is said. It is a phrase that implies destruction. But our standards need specific demonstration/mention of metaphysical aspects being destroyed as well.

Our standards are also clear on this regarding creation feats as well. If they specifically specified or demonstrated metaphysical creation then sure, but without that they're only going to be granted Space-time Manipulation by default and nothing else through just inference of being part of the cosmology.

I believe the standards talks about destruction that are only limited to physical destruction of the Universe and has no context beyond it. Like "Universe is destroyed", "dimension is destroyed", etc. It doesn't addresses the destruction that has actual context of the destruction being actual annhilation of all that exist by beings that are aware of all, not just spacetime, but actually everything, confirmed by the most credible sources within said franchise who are in their own words, "deliberative", so they don't choose the terms lightly. I don't see how else and how more clearly a fiction can demonstrate that everything was literally annhilated within said range. There are many cases within fiction that don't really need a standard to be evaluated since many times they just don't fall in them. Things can exist that are need to be evaluated on case by case basis. That said, nothing in the entire Universe existed. No one in the entire Universe remembered what happened that included type 1 concept beings except celestial sapiens and serventis (due to cosmic awareness likely), this also demonstrate that destruction went beyond just physical destruction, and combined with Celestialsapiens statement, I don't really think it can be just dismissed as just common phrase of annhilation among fiction since fiction don't really easily makes such distinction between destruction of the space and everything in it by being who are aware of all and most credible sources of information and are deliberative, and if certain fiction does, maybe they need a bit of update based on that.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, as for the rest of this.

Regeneration​

Now, the main issues talked in thread I linked above, but I still need to list here. Low-Godly rating coming from due Galactic Gladiator gaining his body from being destroyed by Alien X's black hole, but our Black Hole page says this;

And regeneration page says this;

And;

Pretty simple, a black hole's destruction causes a body lost everything to elementary particles level, not the entire body itself, and High Regen is quite enough provides gaining a body from destruction of black hole. But there's another problems we have here... We don't see how GG gain his body back, black hole destroyed his body and the scene instantly changed, regeneration page says this;

Simple enough, since we don't see how he gain his body back, there's many different abilities can grant to a character their body body back, so we can't give High Regen directly, but since the very close ability is regeneration, because he regenerated his hand, my proposal will this;

I am quite fine with him having outright High regeneration, since he has demonstratable regeneration and it would be more extrapolative to assume that he would do something while disembodied when that isn't demonstrated.

But yeah, Low-Godly regeneration should go.

My brain doesn't working good on wording, if you have good wording, please inform me.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (Stopped the Discussion)​

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The first ability;​

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There's two problem here, the Creation page says this;​

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And the Universe page says this;​

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Should be simple, Alien X and other Celestialsapiens not directly manipulating the higher dimensions, they just crating and destroying alongside with the Universe, which is just an AP and Creation feat, so this part should go.​

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Edit: Due this comment and this this comment, this ability's discussion is stopped​

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We do not grant Dimensional Manipulation for just creating or destroying the universe/multiverse. The ability has very specific applications that are needed for it.

So it should be removed, actually.

Other Higher Dimensional Manipulation (Still Ongoing)​

The other HDM thing;

This should be listed as "Limited" in the profiles cuz Alien X not manipulating the barrier's dimensionality, just piercing though with striking, which is DM page says this;

Pretty simple

Agree.

Mind Manipulation​

The ability;

Mind Manipulation and Body Puppetry is completely different abilities and counterparts of each others, which is it's written on Body Puppetry page;

Simple, these two abilities giving extremely same results with working different methods, since we doesn't have a reason say X controlled their mind, Mind Manipulation should be go, Body Puppetry can stay.

Neutral, since it can be either one. I do agree that one has to go.

BFR​

The ability;

"were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" the main problem; BFR specifically focusing on in-combat things, which is it's explaining in the ability's description;

Now you can say the page says "and they may be as simple as teleporting an opponent somewhere far far away to abandoning them in another time" but this supposed to be against the characters will's while in combat, the trio was already was wanna go to Forge of Creation, and they was looking for a way to go Forge of Creation, also we don't know how they will stop Aggregor, so this part should moved into their Teleportation section.

Agreed.

Resistance to Vibration Manipulation​

The resistance;

The main problem here; Aggregor doesn't using Vibration Manipulation here, just striking and Mother Celestialsapien tanking which is only durability feat. No, if you say he using Vibration Manipulation, it's clearly can seen Mother Celestialsapien's hand's edge still shaking/vibrating, so there's no resisting anything, just durability thing. So this should be removed.

Agreed.

Other Some "destroying" and "creating" Abilities​

Destroying and creating something doesn't grant anything to a character which is I explained above in HDM part, which is written in the Universe page;

And the Creation page;

Simple enough, so these abilities which I will list below, needs to be removed due the Alien X and other Celestialsapiens just "destroying" or "creating" and not manipulating them.

Information Manipulation (Edited)​

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Edit: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay.

Causality Manipulation (Edited)​

Just leave the "Wanted to save the dinosaurs from extinction", remove the rest due destroying something alongside with the Universe

Edit: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay.

Soul Manipulation (Edited)​

Remove "capable of creating" part due creating something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine

Edit: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay.

Nonexistence Erasure (Edited)​

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Edit: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay but "History" and "including the <White Void> which is a dimension of nothingness" will be removed cuz White Void being lack of Mana, it doesn't mean it's independent by itself.

Non-Physical Interaction (Edited)​

Remove "Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites" due only destroying something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine (not fine, actually, I will point this ability later in this thread)

Edited: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay but "nonexistence, spaces" will be removed and "Is superior to the likes of Big Chill who can interact with his intangible species. Comparable, if not superior, to Paradox who interacted with his very mind." parts will be removed due thread's below problems. So; "Abstractions", "Incorporeality", "Intangibility", "Idea", "Space", "History" will be removed due thread's below problems

Soul Destruction (Edited)​

Remove Soul Destruction due only destroying something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine.

Edit: Due Reiner's arguments, this one will stay.

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation (Still Ongoing)​

Remove "Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics" due only creating something alongside with the Universe, also there's no reason assume he changed the Universe's laws and physics, the rest is fine (not fine, actually, I will point these abilities later in this thread)

I've already said my piece on this.

Some Powers and Abilities Alien X and Other Celestialsapiens Scaling for No Reason​

So, some of abilities in Alien X and Celestialsapiens' scaling (or just giving additional values) due to other characters some examples their Self-Sustenance scaling to Professor Paradox and their Technology Manipulation scaling to Upgrade, and the reasons are due stated they "omnipotent" or "can take any power" or just "Alien X can do anything". The main problem here, none of these does not justify to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scaling to verse's characters powers and abilities. Power Inheritance Standards page says this;

Also Power Mimicry and Power Absorption pages says this;

Standards are standards. None of statements are not gives enough right to Alien X and other Celestialsapiens scale to other characters' specific powers and abilities, plus, Ben 10 Discussion Rules says this;

Rules are rules, due they are most powerful force in the verse, this doesn't mean they needs to scale the characters' powers in term of abilities and haxes, so in that case, these abilities, haxes and stats should be removed;

Self-Sustenance​

Remove "Superior to Professor Paradox" part, the rest is fine

Technology Manipulation​

Remove "Should be comparable, if not superior to Upgrade, who could manipulate Robo Rojo's armor despite it resisting his prior attempt" part, the rest is fine

Existence Erasure​

Remove "Should be superior to the Chrono Navigator, a device capable of destroying all of existence, which includes time and causality, as Servantis implied Alien X being omnipotent in that aspect, which has been supported by Professor Paradox previously, who called him omnipotent as well" part, the rest is fine

Agreed.

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

Remove "Comparable to the Annihilarrgh, which establishes the laws of physics for each Annihilarrgh's universe." part, and also remove "Recreated an entire universe with it's specific laws of physics" requested above due it's just Creation thing, the rest is fine (still not fine, actually, I will point these abilities later in this thread again)

Agreed.

Non-Physical Interaction​

Remove "Is Superior to the likes of Big Chill who can interact with intangible species" and "Comparable, if not superior, to Paradox who interacted with his very mind" parts, the rest is fine (though, "Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites" also will needs remove due I listed in above-other sections)

Agree.

Stamina​

Remove entirely (I will make a replacement on this)

I would like to see the replacement before any decision.

Range​

Remove "Should be comparable to the range of Chrono Navigator." part, the rest is fine

Alien X can destroy all of existence so this is honestly redundant. I'm ambivalent to it staying or going.

Some Other NLF Stuff​

So, some of abilities (e.g Data Manipulation) coming from "Alien X changed the Universe", Chadzmut's statement "we all know Celestialsapiens changing the Universe" and some Starbread's statement (ig?). Main issue, they not saying "Celestialsapiens or Alien X changed everything", they just saying "Alien X created the Universe and everything in it" and "Celestialsapiens changing the Universe all the time", this does not justify to assume they literally changed everything, they just doing sometimes on something, not everytime on everything. That would be huge NLF if we assume they changed everything, Fallacies page says this;

Pretty simple, due this reasons, these abilities should be removed;

Data Manipulation​

Remove entirely

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation​

Remove "Capable of changing the entire universe, including laws of physics" part, and the other parts also needs to remove due I listed in above-other sections.

This is an extension of the issue extrapolating abilities via affecting the cosmology, so I share the same thoughts as before.

Abstract Existence Type 1​

We finally come to the final boss. Oh boi, that gonna be chaotic..

Now, we need to check the misunderstood parts, the ability;

Their Incorporeality not because they "embodying" "Love & Rage" they have this due they existing as "Mind", there is nothing to do with AE1. And their Type 9 Immortality not because they "embodying" "Love & Rage", they have this due they existing in a "Pocket Dimension" where outside of the "Universe", which is mentioning their respect page;



So, their Immortality Type 9, Pocket Reality Dimension and Avatar Creation is nothing to do with AE1. At this point, this ability already disqualifies due they doesn't have a Immortality/Regeneration or they doesn't have control over the abstraction, and there's no other statement provides this.

But more importantly, this AE1 logic is completely wrong because of Serena and Bellicus. First time when they meet with Ben, they says this;

"You're supposed to be the Voice of Reason", now, they're Nigh-Omniscient, they know what they're talking about, they know their own race and they must be have knowledge about human race. They literally not talking about they "embodying" "Love & Rage", they talking about their "personalities", this is supporting by their before speak;

They was expecting being "Voice of Reason" from Ben, but when they was see Ben's behavior and Bellicus says "You're supposed to be the Voice of Reason", the expectation here is that decisions are made based on the "personalities" of "minds." they clearly not talking about "embodying" something, they talking about "personalities".

Further support, when Ben transform into Alien X, he doesn't turn into "abstract" being either because he just teleporting to Alien X's Pocket Dimension, this point also supported by Paradox and Omnitrix, these two also can teleport into the Alien X's Pocket Dimension, if you say Ben transform into "abstract" being, then this also means Paradox and Omnitrix also transformed into "abstract" beings which is huge stretch and this will need huge proofs

So, for these reasons, AE1 needs to go.

Seems fine.

Non-Physical Interaction (Edited)​

The ability;

This ability will change to this due reasons I explained in above-other sections;

This one will go to Celestialsapiens' "Passive" section. And;

And this one will go to Celestialsapiens' "Enhanced" section.

Seems fine.

Some Replacements​

Teleportation​

As mentioned in BFR section; "were capable of not just stopping Aggregor but sending the trio to the Forge Of Creation" ability should go to Teleportation section, the ability will look like this;

I'm not adding the Aggregor stuff cuz we don't know how they will stop him, that's an unknown.

Stamina​

Due to Infinite Stamina removed by reasons above, this needs to replaced to profiles.

Also Alien X's Avatar Creation needs to move "Serena and Bellicus" section cuz the body doesn't have this ability but Serena and Bellicus. Also Celestialsapiens page lacks Avatar Creation, needs to added their "Passive" section.

Some Additions​

Large Size​

They base forms may larger than compere to Kevin and Gwen, and they can grown their size to compere to galaxies, so;

Sure.

Information Manipulation Type 2 addition to Space-Time Manipulation​

They specifically stating that Alien X "alter the fabric of the Universe", and Space-Time is fundamental building blocks of the reality, so the abilities will look like this;

Yeah, this is fine.

Additional Existence Erasure​

Stated by Kevin "They could just blink and we'd be gone" and which is mentioning in Celestialsapiens' and Alien X's Notable Attacks section, so the ability will look like this;

Sure.

Voice Manipulation​

Voice Manipulation also needs to be added cuz Azmuth's voice was also changed

Sure.

Support Technology Manipulation and Possibly Mind Reading​

This would added to the already we have Technology Manipulation section, so the ability will look like this;

Also can be discussable possibly Mind Reading ability due counting votes here, the people in the Universe wasn't have buttons for voting, so maybe they was reading peoples minds.

Also I couldn't find any scan in YouTube, if you have scans, please inform me!!

Neutral to this.

Resistance to Gravity Manipulation and Layer 1 Gravity Manipulation & Black Hole Creation​

Now you can say that Galactic Gladiator literally pulled into the black hole, that's true but not, we can be clearly see that Alien X boosting the black hole's gravitational force, there's some type of white-light energy coming from the black hole and pulling Galactic Gladiator, Alien X literally giving some extra work here to catch Galactic Gladiator. And this would grant them Layer 1 Gravity Manipulation due their extra work, so the abilities would look like this;

You can't really layer Gravity Manipulation like this. This is just stronger Gravity Manipulation.

Btw, if my post looks weird, it's cause I'm on mobile rn.

 

[Aolphl]

I would like to see the replacement before any decision.

The replacement is will be this;

Stamina: Infinite (Celestialsapiens are capable of debating for eternity without sleep, stated by Professor Paradox; Albedo turned to Alien X was trapped motionless for nearly a year without needing eat or sleep)

You can't really layer Gravity Manipulation like this. This is just stronger Gravity Manipulation.

Okay, I will remove the layer part

 

[Planck69]

I believe the standards talks about destruction that are only limited to physical destruction of the Universe and has no context beyond it. Like "Universe is destroyed", "dimension is destroyed", etc. It doesn't addresses the destruction that has actual context of the destruction being actual annhilation of all that exist by beings that are aware of all, not just spacetime, but actually everything, confirmed by the most credible sources within said franchise who are in their own words, "deliberative", so they don't choose the terms lightly. I don't see how else and how more clearly a fiction can demonstrate that everything was literally annhilated within said range. There are many cases within fiction that don't really need a standard to be evaluated since many times they just don't fall in them. Things can exist that are need to be evaluated on case by case basis. That said, nothing in the entire Universe existed. No one in the entire Universe remembered what happened that included type 1 concept beings except celestial sapiens and serventis (due to cosmic awareness likely), this also demonstrate that destruction went beyond just physical destruction, and combined with Celestialsapiens statement, I don't really think it can be just dismissed as just common phrase of annhilation among fiction since fiction don't really easily makes such distinction between destruction of the space and everything in it by being who are aware of all and most credible sources of information and are deliberative, and if certain fiction does, maybe they need a bit of update based on that.

Do use paragraphs more.

The distinction doesn't need to be made for most fiction. Cause well, no duh destroying the cosmology destroys everything in it.

This would apply to any setting so I am unsure why this would be a counter. The entire point of that standard on the page is so one can't just point to a metaphysical aspect/beings existing and going "he can destroy concepts/laws/fate" via general total annihilation.

Eru Iluvatar has Law Manipulation listed as a specific application cause he specifically creates them/they descend from him. Garm from God of War eats and deletes information/concepts from reality specifically, even before getting into him devouring all of reality. That's what would be needed for these abilities to be listed for Alien X.

 

[Planck69]

The replacement is will be this;


Okay, I will remove the layer part

The stamina addition is fine then.

 

[Reiner04]

Cause well, no duh destroying the cosmology destroys everything in it.

True, but in this case, destroying the "Universe" doesn't mean destroying everything, thats the point. An entire infinite dimension exists that is made of Mana, so that standard about generic destruction of physical Universe with no context beyond it doesn't really apply here. Fiction requires us to evaluate the specific extent of destruction described on case by czse basis. If a character is known for making exaggerated claims, their statement is less reliable, similarly, if a statement is generic because the character lacks knowledge of the cosmology's fundamentals or doesn't makes distinction, it shouldn't be taken as literal. However, in the case of the Annihilargh, its been described as doomsday device that destroys entire universe and everything in it. By nigh-omniscient beings Celestialsapiens who are deliberative, Ben, court, everyone. Everything in the Universe won't be destroyed only because the Universe is destroyed.

The entire point of that standard on the page is so one can't just point to a metaphysical aspect/beings existing and going "he can destroy concepts/laws/fate" via general total annihilation.

My point is that there is appropriate context and statement by reliable sources that it is not just generic total annhilation but it actually destroyed everything known to Celestialsapiens in the Universe. We know Manna was erased sincd Anodites were erased and Celestialsapiens won't really use any terms lightly, they are known to not do so. They don't even speak unless both (serena, bellicus) of them agree on the point and they both are deliberative.

Eru Iluvatar has Law Manipulation listed as a specific application cause he specifically creates them/they descend from him. Garm from God of War eats and deletes information/concepts from reality specifically, even before getting into him devouring all of reality. That's what would be needed for these abilities to be listed for Alien X.

This would apply to any setting so I am unsure why this would be a counter.

I believe feats in fiction must be evaluated on a case by case basis using in-verse context. Not all series portray a feat in the same manner. In some cases, a statement like "sll of existence was destroyed" scales only to the extent of the cosmology the one who made this statement is aware of(of he is reliable to claim or aware of nature of destruction), in others, the text might explicitly mention multiverses or dimensions. I think this is where our perspectives differ. In my opinion, such a statement should be sufficient for any setting unless evidence to the contrary is presented. In anycase, this difference likely won't be resolved, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Planck69]

True, but in this case, destroying the "Universe" doesn't mean destroying everything, thats the point. An entire infinite dimension exists that is made of Mana, so that standard about generic destruction of physical Universe with no context beyond it doesn't really apply here. Fiction requires us to evaluate the specific extent of destruction described on case by czse basis. If a character is known for making exaggerated claims, their statement is less reliable, similarly, if a statement is generic because the character lacks knowledge of the cosmology's fundamentals or doesn't makes distinction, it shouldn't be taken as literal. However, in the case of the Annihilargh, its been described as doomsday device that destroys entire universe and everything in it. By nigh-omniscient beings Celestialsapiens who are deliberative, Ben, court, everyone. Everything in the Universe won't be destroyed only because the Universe is destroyed.


My point is that there is appropriate context and statement by reliable sources that it is not just generic total annhilation but it actually destroyed everything known to Celestialsapiens in the Universe. We know Manna was erased sincd Anodites were erased and Celestialsapiens won't really use any terms lightly, they are known to not do so. They don't even speak unless both (serena, bellicus) of them agree on the point and they both are deliberative.



I believe feats in fiction must be evaluated on a case by case basis using in-verse context. Not all series portray a feat in the same manner. In some cases, a statement like "sll of existence was destroyed" scales only to the extent of the cosmology the one who made this statement is aware of(of he is reliable to claim or aware of nature of destruction), in others, the text might explicitly mention multiverses or dimensions. I think this is where our perspectives differ. In my opinion, such a statement should be sufficient for any setting unless evidence to the contrary is presented. In anycase, this difference likely won't be resolved, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair. We're likely to just keep butting heads on this, so we might as well move on.

 

[Aolphl]

Bump

 

[Aolphl]

Bump

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree with everything

 

[Aolphl]

Bump

 

[Aolphl]

Bump

 

[Aolphl]

snip

Can you give your full opinion about the thread and can tag someone to for conclusion for the thread?

 

[Reiner04]

Can you give your full opinion about the thread and can tag someone to for conclusion for the thread?

Will give in few days. I will ping other staffs till then.

@Firestorm808 @FinePoint @Elizhaa @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @Just a Random Butler @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Aolphl]

snip

Butler is special huh

 

[Reiner04]

Soul Manipulation​

Remove "capable of creating" part due creating something alongside with the Universe, the rest is fine

Soul manp is fine for same reason i provided for destruction of eveeything inside uniberse.

Nonexistence Erasure​

Remove it entirely due only destroying something alongside with the Universe

Physics and law should be removed since their existence depends on the existence of universe.

Physics Manipulation & Law Manipulation

Remove.

Non-Physical Interaction​

Remove "Is Superior to the likes of Big Chill who can interact with intangible species" and "Comparable, if not superior, to Paradox who interacted with his very mind" parts, the rest is fine (though, "Can destroy all of existence including all nonexistence, spaces and Anodites" also will needs remove due I listed in above-other sections)

Law, physics, history shall be removed since their existence is based on the physical universe.

Voice

Fine.

Stamina and all other replacements are fine.

So, some of abilities (e.g Data Manipulation) coming from "Alien X changed the Universe", Chadzmut's statement "we all know Celestialsapiens changing the Universe" and some Starbread's statement (ig?). Main issue, they not saying "Celestialsapiens or Alien X changed everything", they just saying "Alien X created the Universe and everything in it" and "Celestialsapiens changing the Universe all the time", this does not justify to assume they literally changed everything, they just doing sometimes on something, not everytime on everything. That would be huge NLF if we assume they changed everything, Fallacies page says this;

Actually the Universe in that statement of chadzmuth here pretty much stands for entire Annhilargh Universe, atleast, we know it since we have seen that Art style changed across the entire verse, from timelines to before creation period.

Remove chrononavigator stuff from EE, yeah.

Other things i have not commented on, i am neutral on them.

 

[Re5yh]

Following

 

[Robo432343]

giving alien x soul destruction just because he can destroy the universe is strange imo
you might as well give every universe destroyer soul destruction
are there any feats of alien x actually manipulating a soul?

 

[DemonicDude]

if someone can destroy souls or attack a ghost do they also get Non Physical Interaction ability?

 

[Robo432343]

if someone can destroy souls or attack a ghost do they also get Non Physical Interaction ability?

yes

 

[Aolphl]

are there any feats of alien x actually manipulating a soul?

There's only one scan says that X can manipulate living things, that's it

 

[DemonicDude]

yes

Thanks Robbie.
Reboot Heatblast gets NPI now.

 

[Aolphl]

if someone can destroy souls or attack a ghost do they also get Non Physical Interaction ability?

It's actually depends to type of attack

 

[DemonicDude]

Non Physical Interaction for a character

Heatblast Reboot Abilty additon: Non-Physical Interaction (Obliterated deceased farm ghosts which were resurrected by magician Hex timestamp 4:20)

vsbattles.com

 

[Reiner04]

giving alien x soul destruction just because he can destroy the universe is strange imo
you might as well give every universe destroyer soul destruction
are there any feats of alien x actually manipulating a soul?

He don't really have those abilities because he destroyed the universe. He has those because he destroyed everything in the Universe along with the Universe. The distinction between what was destroyed by Annhilargh has been made clear by various characters including Omniscient and most reliable character like Celestialsapiens who are deliberate "Did you really think you can escape when you utilized your celestial sapien form Alien X to recreate the Entire Universe and everything in it". In addition Annhilargh created all of Annhilargh Universe. There was simply nothingness before it. Nothing at all. Its creation includes Dimension made of manna (which is also a soul), concepts, Anodites, etc. It is not a stretch that its destructive property possesses similar attributes, too.

 

[Lort15]

Anodites are sprits already tho