TenSura LN Revision - Cosmology Section Addition

[Astral_Trinity439]

Why did you assume there should be layers ?

If you go deeper into Hell and it becomes layered, and combine it with the Abyss being bottomless, you get infinite depth = Infinite recurrinng of layers

 

[AlexSamDen]

Check which message he's replying to

 

[Cipher72]

But wouldn't that apply considering that the abyss becomes increasingly dense with miasma as it deepens? Or is this "beyond" more in the sense of "transcending"? If so, I get.

We are talking about two different things, I am specifically addressing the NEP-2 with respect to Space-time via erasing Information argument.

 

[PrimeHydra64]

I'm fine with this though I am neutral on the nep type and aspects. It could also get Inf layers by the fact that it should have infinite or "endless" Negative EV which would be able to erase EV of equal quantity which should be accepted from the EE layer thread from a little while ago.

 

[Lycoris4812]

In this crt? or are we making another one

Ig we can add it in this one, I wanted to make SL fate AE too.
Looking for it, aptheoesis translated it, so I need to get it translated again.

Should it be NEP1 Layered (infinite or not) or NEP2

Well, nep2 is being beyond 1 and 0. If something is nonexistent to 0, like -1, then it's already nonexistent to 1 as well.

 

[Hecky2222]

Well, nep2 is being beyond 1 and 0. If something is nonexistent to 0, like -1, then it's already nonexistent to 1 as well.

It is non "1 and 0" just as how Nonduality works

Just because you are beyond normal 0 doesn't mean you are neither 0 nor 1.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm fine with this though I am neutral on the nep type and aspects. It could also get Inf layers by the fact that it should have infinite or "endless" Negative EV which would be able to erase EV of equal quantity which should be accepted from the EE layer thread from a little while ago.

aren't those a different type of layers?
Like, that's resistance + potency layers, this crt is on nature layers

 

[DrunkMan04]

Agreed

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Hello, today I would like to propose a new section for the cosmology page.
It's the Underworld.

Table of Contents​

I will get straight into it. Demons live in the Underworld, also known as Hell (and this isn't referring to the Abyss/Depths only since in the next scan it says the Abyss is something much more):


Hell is a "true void of nothingness":


Again shown multiple times by how you can summon Emptiness from Hell:







Note: The full name of "Negative Energy" is Negative Existence Value (aka an energy that is existentially the lack of something, not just energy with negative charge, if someone ever even tried to think of it like that).

Kanji is 負の存在値(マイナ スエネルギー) which means Negative Existence Value (Minus Energy)

It is also called Darkness of Hell:



It is the complete opposite of Positive Energy, or Life force, or Existential Energy:



Nature & Aspects
Well, after showing that it's a Void, it's time to set what type of aspects and nature it gets. For starters, the default is Nature Type 1 (Baseline) for Hell, as a "World of Nothingness:


Now for the Aspects;

Aspect 1 & 2; Soul (And Concept)
Hell is called a "Spiritual World", but there are also other Spiritual Worlds:


Yet Hell in particular is a World of Nothingness. Additionally, here, the Soul is converted into Nothingness energy (aka Negative Existence value). And we aren't just talking about the "layer" of the Soul (aka excluding the heart core) either, we're talking about the entirety of it, as shown in the later sections:

Thing is, "Souls" are also the conceptual aspect of beings. So it adds aspect type 2 as well. Another easier way to show it is how the Soul is composed of Spiritons:




Which also happen to be something that <Magic Nullify> can erase/nullify:



Yet it can't erase Emptiness from Hell:


Aspect 3; Mind
Well, you see, before the Soul comes the layers covering it, and that includes the Spiritual Body, which is the Mind:


To reach the Soul in any way, it is a must to pass through/destroy the Spiritual Body and Astral Body, the layers covering the Soul:


Otherwise simply isn't possible other than for someone like Veldanava. So, that means the World of Nothingness would have to convert this aspect into Nothingness as well before it, well, destroys the Soul.

Aspect 4; Information
Voids, in general, also devour Information Particles. Or to be specific, they erase the information written on Information particles:


Information Particles are these:

Spoiler: Information Particles

They are present in all things that exist in the world, inside every type of substance/particle:

They store information of that thing:


They exist at the very core of creation, or alternatively translated, are the foundation of the World:


Again, they exist in every facet of the world:

So yeah, Aspect 4 (Information).

Aspect 5; Space & Time (Layered??), Law, Causality

For baseline, the nothingness of Hell also devours Space-Time itself:




Anyways, moving on; Hell is essentially a World of Darkness, or THE World of Darkness, with "Darkness" being an actual Attribute, which is Laws & Principles/Logic of the world:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tensura_Cosmology_Page_(Light_Novel)#Attributes

So something like following a Law that is nonexistent. Same thing as nonexistent concepts or following the concept of nothingness in analogy. This by the way can also be used for Aspect 2 (Concepts) since those Laws/Attributes are accepted as Type 1 Concepts

Laws exist behind cause and effect:

Depths of Hell
Also called the Abyss of Hell. Basically Hell has a thing called "Depth". Beings that can exist in the regular Hell (world of nothingness), which would be, of course, its residences (Demons), cannot exist in the depths of hell.

Oh, also, Demons are indeed accustomed to the Underworld:

(Well it's natural since they literally live there)

Before anyone asks; Hey, don't demons have souls too? Well yes, but the structure and composition of each world varies, and that difference would extends to the Soul as well:

Each world has different Laws, so taking the Demon World has having different laws regarding the Soul is not hard.

Guy, the first demon born in hell, the oldest of the primal demons, is called the Personification/Embodiment of Darkness (Nothingness):


Anyways, thing is, Abyss/Depth is INFINITELY deep/bottomless:


Sooo, how do we classify the "Depths"? Layered NEP1? NEP2?. In any case, I think it will be infinite layers in whichever option it ends up at, since surviving deeper would also require a more nonexistent self, which goes on infinitely.

TL;DR
A wording like this would do for the section:

Votes​

Agree:
@Astral_Trinity439, @CJunitilarian, @Curcuma_x_curcuma, @K'rimuru, @Cipher72, @Ultimuru, @Mido02, @Re5yh, @Hecky2222, @Ronaldinhxt1 (except NEP2), @MetaChronos, @AstraphelNoctis4, @Berga14, @Mbpoops, @Verlice_tempest, @Lycoris4812 (unsure about layers), @ExcelsisBerny (everything except infinite layers),

Disagree:
@ExcelsisBerny (with infinite layers)

Neutral:


(While disagreeing or being neutral on something, please tell us which part you disagree or are neutral with.)
Note: The majority had contentions with the Space-Time layered part so it was removed and changed to baseline (for baseline Hell).

The OP has been updated.

I disagree with the infinite layers but everything else looks good.

Unsure about infinite layers, but the abyss should be nep2, nep1 layers don't really exist. Aspects look fine, I'll add fate later on.

Does the edits bring anything of relevance to change your votes?

Also, if not infinite, what about countless layers? Or layered unknown layers (since it's definitely not just baseline)?

 

[Cipher72]

I think layered NEP-1 would fit more, as the OP himself said that Hell has "depth" or essentially "layers" and that beings that can survive in a certain layer by virtue of having their very Physiology accustomed to said layer can't survive in a lower layer meaning in lower layer they also dissolve into Non-existence making that non existence more non existent.
From what I understood this fits perfectly for NEP-1 layers, however I don't see NEP-2 because for that, like I said you have to be

2 i.e (¬ 0&1)

I don't see how it's more fundamentally non-existent to the point where normal non-existence can't be used to measure it but I will wait for scans and further arguments.

 

[Hecky2222]

Does the edits bring anything of relevance to change your votes

From what I have read you are either proposing NEP 1 or NEP 2 right? Shouldn't you divide it to proposals rather than just agree or disagree parts?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

From what I have read you are either proposing NEP 1 or NEP 2 right? Shouldn't you divide it to proposals rather than just agree or disagree parts?

last part of the OP

TL;DR
A wording like this would do for the section:

Introduction
Hell, also known as the Underworld, or the World of Darkness, is a realm of true nothingness where even the Soul is converted into pure energy of the Void, also called Minus Existence Value (Negative Energy).

Properties/Aspects of Void
Soul & Concept: It breaks the Soul and converts it into Nothingness, with Soul being one's conceptual self. It cannot be resisted even by something that erases Spiritons themselves.
Mind: To do the above, it would have to pass through/destroy the Spiritual Body, one of the layers coverning the "Soul", also known as the Virtual Memory.
Information: Voids devour Information Particles, or precisely the Information written on them, erasing said information and thus making it so that nothing is transferred.
Space-Time: Information Particles are already BDE1 so it should have BDE1 interaction (aka lack of space-time). In general, the Void of Hell also devours Space-Time itself.
Laws: It embodies the Law/Attribute of Darkness, which is Nothingness.
Causality: Causality does not circulate in the Spiritual Realm.

Depths of Hell
Hell has a concept called "Depth", where the "Deeper" regions of Hell are harder to exist in. For example, Demons or similar Spiritual Life, who can exist at the surface of Hell, cannot go to the depths without being erased completely. This makes the Layers proportional to its Depth, which is infinite.

---

Therefore, it qualifies for Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Type 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 [Space-Time, Laws, Causality]).
As for the Depths of Hell, there are two options:

• NEP1 (Infinite Layers or Countless Layers)
• NEP 2 (Inifnite Layers or Countless Layers)

but it was updated like a few min ago so I don't blame ya for not noticing lol

 

[Lycoris4812]

It is non "1 and 0" just as how Nonduality works

Just because you are beyond normal 0 doesn't mean you are neither 0 nor 1.

If you're more nonexistent than 0, wouldn't that make you not 1 too? Because 1 is existence? You lack both 1 and 0.

 

[Hecky2222]

last part of the OP

I saw this.

I am just saying

Formatting like

Agree with Proposal 1(NEP 1 Layers)
Agree with Proposal 2(NEP 2 Layers)

Would be better cuz noone reading allat or idk who agreeing to what there without clarifying their stance

 

[Hecky2222]

If you're more nonexistent than 0, wouldn't that make you not 1 too? Because 1 is existence? You lack both 1 and 0.

I am still 0. Just beyond normal 0.

I don't lack 0.

If we are telling Existence and Non-Existence as 1 and 0

Being beyond Non-Existence doesn't mean I lack "Non-Existence"

 

[Lycoris4812]

I am still 0. Just beyond normal 0.

I don't lack 0.

If we are telling Existence and Non-Existence as 1 and 0

Being beyond Non-Existence doesn't mean I lack "Non-Existence"

Yeah, but how I understand nep layers work is that each one lacks the previous one's nonexistence. Thats what I mean by being more nonexistent. Nep2 is nep1 erased, or the lack of nep1, 1 layer into nep2 is the same thing just with nep2.

 

[Robo432343]

infinite layers nep 2 abyss

 

[Mizuki67]

I have no issue with the NEP type 1

But what are we gonna do with data particle. I am not talking about the data itself

​

Aspect 4; Information
Voids, in general, also devour Information Particles. Or to be specific, they erase the information written on Information particles:


Information Particles are these:

Spoiler: Information Particles

They are present in all things that exist in the world, inside every type of substance/particle:

They store information of that thing:


They exist at the very core of creation, or alternatively translated, are the foundation of the World:


Again, they exist in every facet of the world:

So yeah, Aspect 4 (Information).

Also what do you mean by layered aspect space and time all I see is void energy being able to erase the world/universe . Can you explain this part

Aspect 5; Space & Time (Layered??), Law, Causality

For baseline, the nothingness of Hell also devours Space-Time itself:




Anyways, moving on; Hell is essentially a World of Darkness, or THE World of Darkness, with "Darkness" being an actual Attribute, which is Laws & Principles/Logic of the world:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tensura_Cosmology_Page_(Light_Novel)#Attributes

So something like following a Law that is nonexistent. Same thing as nonexistent concepts or following the concept of nothingness in analogy. This by the way can also be used for Aspect 2 (Concepts) since those Laws/Attributes are accepted as Type 1 Concepts

Laws exist behind cause and effect:

I got no thoughts on this but I will just remain neutral on this subject

Depths of Hell
Also called the Abyss of Hell. Basically Hell has a thing called "Depth". Beings that can exist in the regular Hell (world of nothingness), which would be, of course, its residences (Demons), cannot exist in the depths of hell.

Oh, also, Demons are indeed accustomed to the Underworld:

(Well it's natural since they literally live there)

Before anyone asks; Hey, don't demons have souls too? Well yes, but the structure and composition of each world varies, and that difference would extends to the Soul as well:

Each world has different Laws, so taking the Demon World has having different laws regarding the Soul is not hard.

Guy, the first demon born in hell, the oldest of the primal demons, is called the Personification/Embodiment of Darkness (Nothingness):


Anyways, thing is, Abyss/Depth is INFINITELY deep/bottomless:


Sooo, how do we classify the "Depths"? Layered NEP1? NEP2?. In any case, I think it will be infinite layers in whichever option it ends up at, since surviving deeper would also require a more nonexistent self, which goes on infinitely.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I am still 0. Just beyond normal 0.

I don't lack 0.

If we are telling Existence and Non-Existence as 1 and 0

Being beyond Non-Existence doesn't mean I lack "Non-Existence"

tbh Demons would already be NEP1 (0) cuz they are accustomed to Hell (baseline), but even they cannot exist in the depths of hell. Wouldn't that mean the depths lack 0 (demons) existential level too?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

My thoughts are the same as we discussed earlier, I agree with most, but the BDE 1 stuff (disagree), and am not sure how we should treat the abyss as an infinite layered NEP 1, or NEP 2...

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

tbh Demons would already be NEP1 (0) cuz they are accustomed to Hell (baseline), but even they cannot exist in the depths of hell. Wouldn't that mean the depths lack 0 (demons) existential level too?

I feel like a (-1) is more accurate to describe it than 0....

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I have no issue with the NEP type 1

But what are we gonna do with data particle. I am not talking about the data itself

Data particles are BDE1 so Voids get aspect 5 (Space-time) cuz of being able to interact with them.

Also what do you mean by layered aspect space and time all I see is void energy being able to erase the world/universe . Can you explain this part

My thoughts are the same as we discussed earlier, I agree with most, but the BDE 1 stuff (disagree), and am not sure how we should treat the abyss as an infinite layered NEP 1, or NEP 2...

This was removed. The original reasoning was that voids would be more nep than Info particles but it had contentions and we discussed it.

Also, let's assume we don't give it infinite layers, what's the smallest amount of layers that'll be feasible?

I feel like a (-1) is more accurate to describe it than 0....

well true. Then let's say
Hell is NEP1 (-1) while existence is +1. Depths of hell would be -2? 0?
Well you can fit any analogy of numbers here. VSBW has baseline nep as 0 instead tho, but agin that's only an analogy

 

[Thermor]

Countless layers seems much more accurate than infinite as they mentioned "endlessly" and "ever-expanding". So the Underworld is just constantly increasing in layers, not straight infinite.

 

[Cipher72]

If you're more nonexistent than 0, wouldn't that make you not 1 too? Because 1 is existence? You lack both 1 and 0.

You are conflating a bunch of things, just because you are "more" non-existent than 0 doesn't make you ¬0 it just makes you deeper into 0. You are still non-existent (0) just "more " Non-existent than baseline Non-existence. You said it yourself "more" not a different fundamentally deeper non-existence.

Yeah, but how I understand nep layers work is that each one lacks the previous one's nonexistence

They are more Non-existent than the previous.

Thats what I mean by being more nonexistent. Nep2 is nep1 erased, or the lack of nep1, 1 layer into nep2 is the same thing just with nep2.

NEP-2 afaik is not nep-1 erased, it's a type of existence that's fundamentally different from NEP-1 and is so non-existent that regardless of how many times a NEP-1 character gets erased they will never become NEP-2. Lack of NEP-1 yes a NEP-2 character lacks NEP-1 & Existence.

tbh Demons would already be NEP1 (0) cuz they are accustomed to Hell (baseline), but even they cannot exist in the depths of hell. Wouldn't that mean the depths lack 0 (demons) existential level too?

Not necessarily no ?
They can just be deeper into 0 no ? You can have a structure reduce a NEP-1 (0) that's baseline into say 1 layers into NEP-1 (0) doesn't necessarily mean that that the structure is NEP-2 (2) it can be a matter of "more Non-existent" or a "deeper layer of non-existence" rather than a "fundamentally different and more non-existent type of non-existence"
God I should count how many times I said "non-existence"

 

[Robo432343]

NEP 2 is so badly justified

 

[Mbpoops]

yea i mostly agree with cipher here

 

[Thermor]

Countless layers seems much more accurate than infinite as they mentioned "endlessly" and "every-expanding". So the Underworld is just constantly increasing in layers, not straight infinite.

As for NEP1 or 2, I'll be neutral for now until knowledgable staffs can provide their input.

 

[Re5yh]

yea i mostly agree with cipher here

Me too

 

[Mizuki67]

NEP-2 afaik is not nep-1 erased, it's a type of existence that's fundamentally different from NEP-1 and is so non-existent that regardless of how many times a NEP-1 character gets erased they will never become NEP-2. Lack of NEP-1 yes a NEP-2 character lacks NEP-1 & Existence.

Fam can you provide an example i still have no idea how that shit works until now.

But I will agree with you for the time being

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

You are conflating a bunch of things, just because you are "more" non-existent than 0 doesn't make you ¬0 it just makes you deeper into 0. You are still non-existent (0) just "more " Non-existent than baseline Non-existence. You said it yourself "more" not a different fundamentally deeper non-existence.

They are more Non-existent than the previous.

NEP-2 afaik is not nep-1 erased, it's a type of existence that's fundamentally different from NEP-1 and is so non-existent that regardless of how many times a NEP-1 character gets erased they will never become NEP-2. Lack of NEP-1 yes a NEP-2 character lacks NEP-1 & Existence.

Not necessarily no ?
They can just be deeper into 0 no ? You can have a structure reduce a NEP-1 (0) that's baseline into say 1 layers into NEP-1 (0) doesn't necessarily mean that that the structure is NEP-2 (2) it can be a matter of "more Non-existent" or a "deeper layer of non-existence" rather than a "fundamentally different and more non-existent type of non-existence"
God I should count how many times I said "non-existence"

Agree

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Countless layers seems much more accurate than infinite as they mentioned "endlessly" and "every-expanding". So the Underworld is just constantly increasing in layers, not straight infinite.

There's also the "bottomless abyss/depth" scan

The same bottomless darkness that had descended upon Zeranus a moment earlier—the power of the void, straight from the abyss—was about to envelop Vega next. It was just like how Zegion was able to open the “door” at will; if anything, Diablo was better at it than him. There was no longer any measuring him by numbers.
V21C4 OTL

You are conflating a bunch of things, just because you are "more" non-existent than 0 doesn't make you ¬0 it just makes you deeper into 0. You are still non-existent (0) just "more " Non-existent than baseline Non-existence. You said it yourself "more" not a different fundamentally deeper non-existence.

They are more Non-existent than the previous.

NEP-2 afaik is not nep-1 erased, it's a type of existence that's fundamentally different from NEP-1 and is so non-existent that regardless of how many times a NEP-1 character gets erased they will never become NEP-2. Lack of NEP-1 yes a NEP-2 character lacks NEP-1 & Existence.

Not necessarily no ?
They can just be deeper into 0 no ? You can have a structure reduce a NEP-1 (0) that's baseline into say 1 layers into NEP-1 (0) doesn't necessarily mean that that the structure is NEP-2 (2) it can be a matter of "more Non-existent" or a "deeper layer of non-existence" rather than a "fundamentally different and more non-existent type of non-existence"
God I should count how many times I said "non-existence"

Would lacking 0 be just deeper into 0?

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence.

Got the idea from here.

 

[RM97]

Agree with NEP1.
But what is the logic behind layers here?

 

[Bahaha]

Abyss reminds me of DnD's Abyss and it's layers. Interestingly enough, I remember Tensura and Overlord being inspired by DnD. I agree with this CRT.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agree with NEP1.
But what is the logic behind layers here?

Demons and higher spiritual lifeforms can exist in hell (baseline)
But once they go to the depths of hell, they can't exist there and get erased

 

[Thermor]

There's also the "bottomless abyss/depth" scan


Would lacking 0 be just deeper into 0?

Got the idea from here.

Bottomless can also work with countless. Considering they mentioned "ever-expanding", bottomless is likely more referring to the layers expanding forever, not that its straight infinite.

 

[RM97]

Demons and higher spiritual lifeforms can exist in hell (baseline)
But once they go to the depths of hell, they can't exist there and get erased

That seems like at least 1 layer above EE for the depths of Hell imo.

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I half agree, in my opinion this is nep 2 because of the other "voids" (like the sub-space or where a child of Ivarage ran that have information), and this one erases them.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Bottomless can also work with countless. Considering they mentioned "ever-expanding", bottomless is likely more referring to the layers expanding forever, not that its straight infinite.

The "ever-expanding" is it coming into the cardinal world, thus "ever-expanding". Since we are talking about Hell itself here, we would have to assume it's infinite in size for it to keep expanding forever into the Cardinal World. So per say you go deep into hell, you can keep going forever from your perspective and never reach the bottom cuz it will keep expanidng deeper and deeper from your pov. But when viewed as a whole the depth would be infinite.

Can also be ad-infinitum now that I think about it, "endlessly" I mean. Since Fuse is at least consistent when he uses terms negative to finiteness (infinite, endless, bottomless, etc.)

That seems like at least 1 layer above EE for the depths of Hell imo.

And this depth thing goes on infinitely since Hell is infinitely deep/bottomless, and also that when the depths of hell are summoned to the cardinal world, they keep expanding forever endlessly (scans in the OP)

I half agree, in my opinion this is nep 2 because of the other "voids" (like the sub-space or where a child of Ivarage ran that have information), and this one erases them.

I'm pretty sure those are above Hell and not the other way around, since Hell is just treated as a "world" inside the Otherworld.
Those that materialize in the cardinal world need bodies of the same nature as the substance in the cardinal world, so I don't think their bodies would still be of the same nature as the Otherworld once they manifest

 

[Bahaha]

Bottomless can also work with countless. Considering they mentioned "ever-expanding", bottomless is likely more referring to the layers expanding forever, not that its straight infinite.

Bottomless explicitly works with infinity. If it has no bottom limits then it's infinite, not just countless.

 

[RM97]

And this depth thing goes on infinitely since Hell is infinitely deep/bottomless and ever-expanding

Then that by in itself isn't much in terms of layers, only what's shown so far i.e. at least 1 layer.

So I don't see how infinite layers work here unless shown that there's actual layers of hell that correspond with its depth i.e. infinite layers of hell, and that each layer is more nonexistent than the previous one.