TenSura LN Revision - Demons

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Hello everyone. Today I want to give NEP to Demons based on the last topic that was accepted.

Table of Contents​

What are Demons?
Demons are basically Elementals (Spirits) of Darkness

Elemental spirits like Ifrit are bound by these physical laws… Or to put it another way, they’re the embodiments of the laws governing the world, and apparently there are eight types of these embodiments. The light and dark attributes are somewhat special, with light being derived from angels—and darkness from demons. The angels and demons I know of so far could be called elemental spirits, technically, if you trace their roots. Someone like Diablo could tell me more if I asked, but I’m not that interested, and it’s not like I could do much with the knowledge anyway.
V14E4 OTL
_______________

Fire spirits such as Ifrit were also bound by these physical laws. Or rather, spirits were the embodiment of the laws of the world, and they also had eight attributes. It seems that ‘light’ and ‘darkness’ were special, and light was derived from angels while darkness was derived from demons. It seems that angels and demons, which were confirmed now, could also be called spirits if we traced back their origins. Diablo and others might be able to say more about this, but it didn’t make much sense to me, and I was not particularly interested in knowing about it.
Slimereader

They are thus embodiments of the attribute of Darkness (which is nonexistence)

Them being the "embodiment" of it extends such that they are quite literally made of darkness. You see, a spirit is basically a collection of natural energy of its respective attribute. They are literally split off from the Great Spirits of each attribute.

A little time passed. Eventually, little particles of light began to float down from the heavens, like a light snow. I couldn’t feel any sense of strength or will from it. Gail failed to notice any of this and continued praying.

His prayer had been answered not by a high-level elemental but by low-level ones with no sense of self. Fragments of natural energy. Sort of like magicules, but not really.
V4C7 OTL

However, the magic in this example is so-called elemental magic. Spirit magic, where one borrows the powers of the spirits, is not affected by the image the caster places into their spell. It’s magic that utilizes the power of a spirit, something that must conform to the laws of nature. As a result, flames driven by spirit magic still consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide. When I fought Ifrit, the Great Sage taught me a thing or two about steam explosions, and that trick only worked because Ifrit’s flames worked under similar natural laws. If it was elemental magic instead, using magicules to rewrite those laws, it may’ve been completely ineffectual.
V11C1 OTL
___________________

Spirit magic, which could be cast by borrowing the power of spirits, would not be manipulated by a mage’s imagination. In other words, it was a magic that delivered the power of a spirit—a being whose existence was based on natural phenomena—in its original, purest form. This meant that the fire caused by spirit magic would consume oxygen and generate carbon dioxide. By the way, during my battle with Ifrit in the past, ‘Great Sage’ had warned me about causing a steam explosion. The reason why it could have potentially worked was because Ifrit’s flames obeyed the same properties as fire in the natural world. Had it been elemental magic, which alters the laws of physics using magicules, my strategy undoubtedly wouldn’t have worked.
Slimereader

He had been willed into life eons ago, before heaven and earth were created. It was a simple coincidence. When Veldanava the Creator built seven seraphim out of the great elemental spirit of light, that also gave birth to those associated with the shadows behind them. Those were the Devil Lords, the seven Primal Demons derived from the great elemental spirit of darkness—and he was the first, the king of the underworld, the core realm of darkness.

He was an absolute ruler, darkness personified, from the moment he was born, an arrogant king who forced all other demons to do his bidding. His brothers and sisters, to him, were no different from the many other clans that existed. They fought for supremacy, jostled one another for position; two of the Primals even joined hands to challenge him. But he made them all bend to his will without experiencing a moment of pain.
V16 Epilogue OTL
---------------
He arose a long time ago, far back in the ages, before the creation of the world. His birth was a mere coincidence. Veldanava, the creator god, created the seven seraphim from the Great Spirit of Light, and the shadows were born. Those were the Seven Primordials—devil lords derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness.

He was the first of them, and he was the king who ruled the underworld, the world of darkness. Since his birth, his power had been absolute, the embodiment of darkness. An arrogant king who could control the demons at will. From his perspective, even his seven separate brothers and sisters of darkness were no more than like those of his many family members (dependents).
Slimereader

So that dumbass demigod continued with his experimentation. I was around by this point, so I pretty much remember the stuff he was up to. The elementals had already split off from the great spirits, so the four major elements had already spread across the world. These elementals began to take in magicules, and in time, they manifested physical bodies as well. And that demigod was helping them along the whole time. The earth element created the high dwarves, the water element created the sirens, the fire element created the flame imps, and the wind element created the high elves.
V17C4 OTL
______________________

That ancestor asshole continued to experiment. Well, I was there at the time, so I can generally remember what it was doing. At that time, spirits from the Great Spirit of each attribute had already split off and filled the earth with the four major elements. Those spirits took in magical elements and materialized, rather, incarnated. In other words, it was the ancestor who helped those spirits materialize. From the “earth” attribute, the earth spirits, High Dwarves, were born. From the “water” attribute, the water spirits, Sirens, were born. From the “fire” attribute, the fire spirits, Enki, were born. And from the “wind” attribute, the wind spirits, High Elves, were born.
Slimereader

So basically they have NEP1. It should be on all aspects that Hell (not abyss) is NEP on, since your form is the same as the composite of the world you exist in:

He went into detail on what he knew so far. Essentially, our old planet was a purely physical world—a world free of magicules. The opposite of that is a purely spiritual world—one teeming with spirits, demons, angels, and other mystic life-forms; one full of mysterious and astonishing energy. The two were polar opposites but still retained some deep, important connections. Which led to this world—a world of chaos. An extremely unique entity—one that shared properties from both the physical and spiritual worlds. Its atmosphere was packed with magicules, allowing fairies, ghouls, and other spiritual life-forms to manifest themselves—something Yuuki figured out via his own experimentation.

Traveling from a physical world to this one meant that our own bodies had to be broken down once, then rebuilt in semi-physical form. That, he explained, was likely why we couldn’t go back to a purely physical world again.
V4C5 OTL
Click to expand...

Hmph. You do see transmigrants, on occasion. Their memories from the past are burned into their souls, due to a powerful will. There are some, indeed, who retain every memory of their past lives. But a transmigrant from another world… That is quite uncommon. A regular soul, by itself, would have no hope of surviving a journey across realms. It would dissolve midway, taking its memories with it. Someone retaining their full mind and becoming reborn as a monster out of pure magic… I cannot recall any past example of that. Quite…peculiar, indeed.
V1C1 OTL

"I cannot stand to see Rimuru saddened...but I do not feel sad for the death of monsters. Their souls will simply be returned to the cycle of rebirth, where they may refine them-selves and strive again for greater heights. That is the natural way of things, is it not?"

"Yes, Master. I believe you are right..."

"Then why can he not simply compartmentalize the matter that way?"

Why doesn't Rimuru cease his mourning...? Dragons are immortal beings. We do not die. If our bodies are destroyed, we always come back to life. It does not work that way for Shion and her kind, but eventually, their souls will be reconstructed to gain new life. Of course, they will not come back as the same beings, and their memories or even wills may not exist in the same form...but that, too, is the natural way of things.
Veldora's Slime Observation Journal

So Demons would have NEP1 (Aspect 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 [Space, Time, Life, Death, Causality, Law] for the same reason as Hell itself.

They would also get NEP3 since despite all of the above, they can still think (though their minds are nep), their souls and heart cores can break (though they are nonexistent), etc. Basically because they are characters and not literal structures. This was originally suggested by @Cipher72 on discord.

Votes​

Agree: @Elizhaa , @KingTempest , Random-Helper323

Disagree:

Neutral/Miscellaneous:

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agreed as discussed on discord
Good job once again, Ciel (⁠つ⁠✧⁠ω⁠✧⁠)⁠つ

 

[Incomprehensibleexistence]

Agree

 

[Noobish2006]

I don't think that's how nep3 works tbh
Nep 1 is blatant tho

 

[Ultimuru]

Actually a question. Would it give NEP to True Demon Lords as well? After all even Rimuru got his race changed and evolved into a "demon slime" race.

Report. The Harvest Festival has begun. Your bodily structure will be reconstructed in order to evolve you into a new species. ㅤ
ㅤ
Confirmed. Super-evolution from type “slime” to type “demon slime”…successful.ㅤ
Vol5

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Actually a question. Would it give NEP to True Demon Lords as well? After all even Rimuru got his race changed and evolved into a "demon slime" race.

Demon slime is just a demonic spiritual lifeform taking the form of a slime through self incarnation, much like how normal slimes are self-incarnation of a type of Youma (semi spiritual life)

It is also said that Rimuru's attribute is demonic, and as a spiritual lifeform he would be the embodiment of his attribute, so I would say YES

 

[Noobish2006]

It is also said that Rimuru's attribute is demonic

When/where?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

When/where?

It's in his race name
"Demon slime", or, Demonic Vicious Spiritual Lifeform

魔粘性精神体(デモンスライム)

 

[Loetkolben16]

I agree with demons getting NEP 1 and don't know enough about NEP 3 for that.

However I'm not sure, if you can just use @Elizhaa agreement from the last thread for this, or if you perhaps need another confirmation.

 

[Mizuki67]

However I'm not sure, if you can just use @Elizhaa agreement from the last thread for this, or if you perhaps need another confirmation.

I think it is still valid only if there are no new arguments. Elizhaa is quite knowledgable with slime i dont think she needs to repeat agreement here but ofcourse if you disagree we can just ask her to give a comment again. This is for NEP 1 not NEP 3

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

However I'm not sure, if you can just use @Elizhaa agreement from the last thread for this, or if you perhaps need another confirmation.

Correct, which is why "in the previous thread" is next to it

Neither me nor Ciel are sure about the NEP3, but @Cipher72 proposed it so why not give it a try

 

[Eikichi_Sensei]

I disagree. Demons aren't described as "empty/nothing," nor is there any mention of it.

Their survival in Hell doesn't mean they're nonexistent; it means they're resistant to the existential erasure that's the foundation of Hell. I don't understand why having a mind, a heart core, etc., in Hell is interpreted as meaning those things are nonexistent, when it's simply resistance to existential erasure.

I also don't know why being the embodiment of nothingness would give you all possible aspects; in any case, they simply have their attribute/concept of darkness (which you say is nonexistence) engraved in their souls as information. I don't know if the concept of nothingness would give you any kind of NEP, but if it does, it would be of the conceptual nonexistence type or something like that, I suppose, IDK.

So, I disagree.

Neutral with nep 1 or 3, type conceptual/law nonexistence.

(By the way, I only gave my opinion. If you reply, I won't actively respond because I have things to do, but I will be looking at future comments in this thread.)

 

[Mizuki67]

I disagree. Demons aren't described as "empty/nothing," nor is there any mention of it.

Their survival in Hell doesn't mean they're nonexistent; it means they're resistant to the existential erasure that's the foundation of Hell. I don't understand why having a mind, a heart core, etc., in Hell is interpreted as meaning those things are nonexistent, when it's simply resistance to existential erasure.

I also don't know why being the embodiment of nothingness would give you all possible aspects; in any case, they simply have their attribute/concept of darkness (which you say is nonexistence) engraved in their souls as information. I don't know if the concept of nothingness would give you any kind of NEP, but if it does, it would be of the conceptual nonexistence type or something like that, I suppose, IDK.

So, I disagree.

Neutral with nep 1 or 3, type conceptual/law nonexistence.

(By the way, I only gave my opinion. If you reply, I won't actively respond because I have things to do, but I will be looking at future comments in this thread.)

Disagree with your take regarding Demons not being NEP. This isnt about being resistant to existence erasure. Demons are stated to be the embodiment of nothingness and darkness. The reason why they resist it is because they are NEP Nature beings

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I disagree. Demons aren't described as "empty/nothing," nor is there any mention of it.

Neo doesn't require you to have extremely specific statements like this. Being for example made of X whereas X is nothingness, is also a qualifiable way.

Demons are made of Darkness, the same one as Hell, which we know is Nothingness.

Their survival in Hell doesn't mean they're nonexistent; it means they're resistant to the existential erasure that's the foundation of Hell.

Are you saying a fodder imp demon can "resist" Hell, when we explicitly have statements that the "resistance" of higher SLFs is because they have sense positive energy, which can cancel out Hell's emptiness?

I would have to disagree with your logic here

I don't understand why having a mind, a heart core, etc., in Hell is interpreted as meaning those things are nonexistent, when it's simply resistance to existential erasure.

Same as above

I also don't know why being the embodiment of nothingness would give you all possible aspects;

What do you mean "all possible aspects"? No one said "all" aspects here, the specific ones are clearly listed.

in any case, they simply have their attribute/concept of darkness (which you say is nonexistence) engraved in their souls as information. I don't know if the concept of nothingness would give you any kind of NEP, but if it does, it would be of the conceptual nonexistence type or something like that, I suppose, IDK.

At the moment Heart Core is accepted as both conceptual and information (type 2), so your argument isn't making sense

You also didn't address the argument about each world and its residence having their own composite (which extends to soul lvl), and how Demons are made up of darkness due to being darkness Elementals/Spirits.

(By the way, I only gave my opinion. If you reply, I won't actively respond because I have things to do, but I will be looking at future comments in this thread.)

Sure

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

While I agree with the idea of giving Demons NEP 1, I think it should be limited to when they are in hell, and otherwise a limited version of it.

 

[Loetkolben16]

I think it is still valid only if there are no new arguments. Elizhaa is quite knowledgable with slime i dont think she needs to repeat agreement here but ofcourse if you disagree we can just ask her to give a comment again. This is for NEP 1 not NEP 3

Correct, which is why "in the previous thread" is next to it

Neither me nor Ciel are sure about the NEP3, but @Cipher72 proposed it so why not give it a try

I mean, if you guys say its okay, then that works for me.

I just wanted to mention it, before others come here and might throw accusations of vote manipulation around.

 

[Berga14]

I think it should be limited to when they are in hell, and otherwise a limited version of it.

agree with everything but tecnically the body they need to remain in a physical/chaos world isn't nep.
So full nep in hell and full nep + non nep body in a non spiritual world.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

While I agree with the idea of giving Demons NEP 1, I think it should be limited to when they are in hell, and otherwise a limited version of it.

agree with everything but tecnically the body they need to remain in a physical/chaos world isn't nep.
So full nep in hell and full nep + non nep body in a non spiritual world.

Correct. When manifested, their physical body is, well, obviously physical, but their spiritual aspects and all would get NEP.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Okay so, in the last thread i didn't really get into the Demon physiology thingy but now I gave it a read, and I'm not quite sure on what to make of this thing infront of me.

That particular line that says "Demons can be called elemental spirits technically, if we trace back their origins" more so gives me the interpretation that Demons are not pure spirits, rather they are the descendants of spirits. As such, they are "technically" under the family of Spirits but not exactly spirits in their ontology themselves. The lack of exact terms or characteristics for NEP is a heavy weight that pulls me away from agreeing to it.

Same for the scan that talks about that Demon lord being the "personification" of darkness, is quite literally figure of speech that imposes them with the darkness-like characteristics (as they are the rulers of this particular Void), rather than darkness itself. The ambiguous literary devices aren't doing much to convince me on this one personally.

Therefore, for now I will disagree with NEP1 for Demons. Furthermore, I also disagree with NEP3 as it's non applicable here. NEP3 is a physiology state where the character sorta jumps from existence to non-existence while being attacked or similar encounters. At times they will have real existant parts to their body, and when come under attack it paradoxically behaves as if it doesn't exist.

For Demons, if they are NEP1, then they continuously remain in the state of Non existence. Basically the non-existence creature is a conscious entity, which is a different paradoxical existence than what NEP3 is.

Also, I may or may not respond back immediately as I'm currently not fully engaged on this site, so I will obviously let the mods do their thing.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

Okay so, in the last thread i didn't really get into the Demon physiology thingy but now I gave it a read, and I'm not quite sure on what to make of this thing infront of me.

That particular line that says "Demons can be called elemental spirits technically, if we trace back their origins" more so gives me the interpretation that Demons are not pure spirits, rather they are the descendants of spirits. As such, they are "technically" under the family of Spirits but not exactly spirits in their ontology themselves. The lack of exact terms or characteristics for NEP is a heavy weight that pulls me away from agreeing to it.

Well , tbw , There’s no word like “technically” in the raws (see the Slime Reader translation). It just says they can be considered spirits, which they are, as spiritual lifeforms.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Well , tbw , There’s no word like “technically” in the raws (see the Slime Reader translation). It just says they can be considered spirits, which they are, as spiritual lifeforms.

The word "could be" doesn't change the pertinent meaning for me either. The term "could be" alone isn't what the marked afterall, the entire line together is what I bolded which says "could be considered XYZ, if we trace back to their origin".

"Could be" doesn't seem to be equivalent to "it is" in this case.

 

[Berga14]

"Could be" doesn't seem to be equivalent to "it is" in this case.

"Could be" is there just cause they are the same as spirits but without being called spirits cause spirits are the slf that are specifically from the other 5 elementals.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

The word "could be" doesn't change the pertinent meaning for me either. The term "could be" alone isn't what the marked afterall, the entire line together is what I bolded which says "could be considered XYZ, if we trace back to their origin".

"Could be" doesn't seem to be equivalent to "it is" in this case.

The "could be" isn’t questioning if demons are spirits, they’re already straight up stated to be spiritual lifeforms, so that part isn’t up for debate.
It’s just about classification. Elemental spirits are tied to the five main attributes, while demons fall under darkness, which is treated as a special attribute.
So when it says they "could be considered spirits if you trace back their origins," it’s not saying they’re only technically spirits or just descendants. It’s just pointing out they don’t fit the usual elemental spirit category, even though they share the same base nature.
The scan literally says spirits are embodiments of the world’s laws/attributes, and demons come from those same attributes (while being a spiritual lifeforms on top of that. ).

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

That particular line that says "Demons can be called elemental spirits technically, if we trace back their origins" more so gives me the interpretation that Demons are not pure spirits, rather they are the descendants of spirits. As such, they are "technically" under the family of Spirits but not exactly spirits in their ontology themselves. The lack of exact terms or characteristics for NEP is a heavy weight that pulls me away from agreeing to it.

Not quite, this is mostly nitpicking grammar. And said grammar doesn't even exist in the RAWs:

〝光〟と〝闇〟は特殊で、光は天使、闇は悪魔、に派生するみたいだね。今確認されている天使族(エ ン ジ ェ ル)や悪魔族 (デ ー モ ン)も、大本を辿っていけば精霊と呼べなくも ない感じに思える。ディアブロとかに聞けば詳しく教えてくれそうだけど、それを知ったところで意味はないし、特に興味もない。

And what Astraphel said in the reply above me.

Also this is negated by the fact that Primordials are born directly from the GS of Darkness, much like how all other Spirits are born from their respective Great Spirits:

He had been willed into life eons ago, before heaven and earth were created. It was a simple coincidence. When Veldanava the Creator built seven seraphim out of the great elemental spirit of light, that also gave birth to those associated with the shadows behind them. Those were the Devil Lords, the seven Primal Demons derived from the great elemental spirit of darkness—and he was the first, the king of the underworld, the core realm of darkness.

He was an absolute ruler, darkness personified, from the moment he was born, an arrogant king who forced all other demons to do his bidding. His brothers and sisters, to him, were no different from the many other clans that existed. They fought for supremacy, jostled one another for position; two of the Primals even joined hands to challenge him. But he made them all bend to his will without experiencing a moment of pain.
V16 Epilogue OTL
---------------
He arose a long time ago, far back in the ages, before the creation of the world. His birth was a mere coincidence. Veldanava, the creator god, created the seven seraphim from the Great Spirit of Light, and the shadows were born. Those were the Seven Primordials—devil lords derived from the Great Spirit of Darkness.

He was the first of them, and he was the king who ruled the underworld, the world of darkness. Since his birth, his power had been absolute, the embodiment of darkness. An arrogant king who could control the demons at will. From his perspective, even his seven separate brothers and sisters of darkness were no more than like those of his many family members (dependents).
Slimereader

So that dumbass demigod continued with his experimentation. I was around by this point, so I pretty much remember the stuff he was up to. The elementals had already split off from the great spirits, so the four major elements had already spread across the world. These elementals began to take in magicules, and in time, they manifested physical bodies as well. And that demigod was helping them along the whole time. The earth element created the high dwarves, the water element created the sirens, the fire element created the flame imps, and the wind element created the high elves.
V17C4 OTL
______________________

That ancestor asshole continued to experiment. Well, I was there at the time, so I can generally remember what it was doing. At that time, spirits from the Great Spirit of each attribute had already split off and filled the earth with the four major elements. Those spirits took in magical elements and materialized, rather, incarnated. In other words, it was the ancestor who helped those spirits materialize. From the “earth” attribute, the earth spirits, High Dwarves, were born. From the “water” attribute, the water spirits, Sirens, were born. From the “fire” attribute, the fire spirits, Enki, were born. And from the “wind” attribute, the wind spirits, High Elves, were born.
Slimereader

Same for the scan that talks about that Demon lord being the "personification" of darkness, is quite literally figure of speech that imposes them with the darkness-like characteristics (as they are the rulers of this particular Void), rather than darkness itself. The ambiguous literary devices aren't doing much to convince me on this one personally.

This ignores the context of that line, which is that Demons are born from the Great Spirit of Darkness.

Therefore, for now I will disagree with NEP1 for Demons. Furthermore, I also disagree with NEP3 as it's non applicable here. NEP3 is a physiology state where the character sorta jumps from existence to non-existence while being attacked or similar encounters. At times they will have real existant parts to their body, and when come under attack it paradoxically behaves as if it doesn't exist.

Doesn't it also include cases where a character can think despite his mind being NEP?
Well I'm not an expert of NEP3 so I'll let Cipher handle it.

 

[Noobish2006]

Okay so, in the last thread i didn't really get into the Demon physiology thingy but now I gave it a read, and I'm not quite sure on what to make of this thing infront of me.

That particular line that says "Demons can be called elemental spirits technically, if we trace back their origins" more so gives me the interpretation that Demons are not pure spirits, rather they are the descendants of spirits. As such, they are "technically" under the family of Spirits but not exactly spirits in their ontology themselves. The lack of exact terms or characteristics for NEP is a heavy weight that pulls me away from agreeing to it.

Same for the scan that talks about that Demon lord being the "personification" of darkness, is quite literally figure of speech that imposes them with the darkness-like characteristics (as they are the rulers of this particular Void), rather than darkness itself. The ambiguous literary devices aren't doing much to convince me on this one personally.

Therefore, for now I will disagree with NEP1 for Demons. Furthermore, I also disagree with NEP3 as it's non applicable here. NEP3 is a physiology state where the character sorta jumps from existence to non-existence while being attacked or similar encounters. At times they will have real existant parts to their body, and when come under attack it paradoxically behaves as if it doesn't exist.

For Demons, if they are NEP1, then they continuously remain in the state of Non existence. Basically the non-existence creature is a conscious entity, which is a different paradoxical existence than what NEP3 is.

Also, I may or may not respond back immediately as I'm currently not fully engaged on this site, so I will obviously let the mods do their thing.

They embody darkness so are nep1 cos darkness is nep1

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Honestly, I don't agree. The World of Darkness is not "nothingness" because darkness itself is something. In nothingness, there is no darkness, no light, or anything else, so I don't agree.

The Original Poster mentioned that the World of Darkness is nothingness, but he didn't provide a source for that in the thread. He only linked the Cosmology page; I want the specific source that states the World of Darkness is indeed nothingness.

If this is the source, the context here refers to an ability and not that the World of Darkness is nothingness. It is just negative energy and Existence Erasure, and the context is perfectly clear. Anyone who reads the context can tell it is the Void Magic ability, which is simply the power of Existence Erasure.

 

[Berga14]

Anyone who reads the context can tell it is the Void Magic ability, which is simply the power of Existence Erasure.

Dude, the first sentence of this crt is literally a link for a 6 page long crt where hell was accepted as nep

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Honestly, I don't agree. The World of Darkness is not "nothingness" because darkness itself is something. In nothingness, there is no darkness, no light, or anything else, so I don't agree.

The Original Poster mentioned that the World of Darkness is nothingness, but he didn't provide a source for that in the thread. He only linked the Cosmology page; I want the specific source that states the World of Darkness is indeed nothingness.

If this is the source, the context here refers to an ability and not that the World of Darkness is nothingness. It is just negative energy and Existence Erasure, and the context is perfectly clear. Anyone who reads the context can tell it is the Void Magic ability, which is simply the power of Existence Erasure.

Read the whole thing (including the first line):

Hello everyone. Today I want to give NEP to Demons based on the last topic that was accepted.

World of Darkness is already accepted as nothingness in the CRT before this one, so your point falls apart. Linking to the cosmology page means "It is already accepted in our profiles, so read them". So please don't derail this CRT with arguments that should have been in the last thread, and keep on topic (Demons are NEP, NOT whether World of Darkness is NEP).

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Dude, the first sentence of this crt is literally a link for a 6 page long crt where hell was accepted as nep

If that is the case, then it should be removed.

 

[Ultimuru]

Honestly, I don't agree. The World of Darkness is not "nothingness" because darkness itself is something. In nothingness, there is no darkness, no light, or anything else, so I don't agree.

The Original Poster mentioned that the World of Darkness is nothingness, but he didn't provide a source for that in the thread. He only linked the Cosmology page; I want the specific source that states the World of Darkness is indeed nothingness.

If this is the source, the context here refers to an ability and not that the World of Darkness is nothingness. It is just negative energy and Existence Erasure, and the context is perfectly clear. Anyone who reads the context can tell it is the Void Magic ability, which is simply the power of Existence Erasure.

Nihilistic Banish uses "emptiness" of hell to kill the target in even better way than Disintegration. And void from hell is straight up referred as negative existence value.

 

[Ultimuru]

If that is the case, then it should be removed.

Because you say so?

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Read the whole thing (including the first line):


World of Darkness is already accepted as nothingness in the CRT before this one, so your point falls apart. Linking to the cosmology page means "It is already accepted in our profiles, so read them". So please don't derail this CRT with arguments that should have been in the last thread, and keep on topic (Demons are NEP, NOT whether World of Darkness is NEP).

Alright, since it has been approved, that makes things good and increases the chances of approval for this topic.

I’m really happy that Diablo will have this ability on his profile, but I have to make sure that he possesses it, of course, in a real and correct way.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Nihilistic Banish uses "emptiness" of hell to kill the target in even better way than Disintegration. And void from hell is straight up referred as negative existence value.

Because you say so?

Yes, I have reviewed the topic, and it seems good. This is also a really nice addition.

 

[Ronaldinhxt1]

I agree. There were parts I never even imagined.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Since Astral, Berga and Astraphel above me basically share the same points (just different in length of elaboration) I'll make a single reply as to not clog the thread with train of pages.

So y'all are making a syllogism to come to the conclusion that Demons embody what they represent as the other core elemental spirits. With points being :-

P1. All spirits are born from the primordial Great Spirits (including Main 5 ones).
P2. The main 5 Spirits are AE1 existences themselves.
C - The Demons, which are born from Great Spirit of darkness must therefore also be Darkness/non-existence in their ontology itself.

See, i understood that part already, and it's not a bad point tbh. But the thing which still sorta makes me hit the brakes on the conclusion is certain terms which doesn't have explanation as to why they are even there. Point being, I don't see why the narrative would say that the ruler Demon is a "personification" of darkness, when that figure of speech made to describe like characteristics for things which obviously aren't the same as what they are compared to. Also why would they use the term "could be" for Demons if, in ontology, they are still spirits? Afterall the criterion for labeling something as "Spirit" is based on them being embodiment of laws, as in being AE1 themselves rather than them being part of the 5 main elemental spirits.

You can only call it nitpick or cherry pick if say there was atleast a direct inherent evidence, but the lack of those including terms which makes you doubt the context more aren't helping, in which I think my thought process is pretty justified. Especially since I don't see VSBW giving something as busted as NEP based on similarities. But I could very well be wrong, and VSBW might see it being relevant - in which case it would be a new lesson for me and a good news for y'all.

I hope I'm clear in my point.
I won't really interfere much unless new evidences come up and let mods evaluate.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

Doesn't it also include cases where a character can think despite his mind being NEP?
Well I'm not an expert of NEP3 so I'll let Cipher handle it.

By that logic every NEP1 or NEP2 being would be NEP3 because despite being non-existence in certain aspects, those same aspects paradoxically still remain active.

The difference is in being "active" and being "existent".
NEP1 & NEP2 are beings who are still "active" while being NEP.
While NEP3 are beings who still behaves as being "existent" at times.

 

[Tatsumi504]

snip

Agree with the points brought up by my no. 1 glazer, disagree for a different reason.

Being the embodiment / personification of something isn't equivalent to being that thing. The darkness of hell is supposed to be something with negative existence value and clashes with positive existence until its negative energy is canceled out and becomes zero. Demons also need to show this property if they are to be considered the thing they are embodying in question. Their ability to survive in hell is simply resistance to that kind of existence erasure (void manipulation). Given how the darkness of hell works, were they truly NEP be it in the underworld or otherwise, there is no reason as to why they would be erased in the depths of hell in other words, if they were actually negative energy, they wouldn't be erased by the negative energy of hell in the first place.

There's no mention of them being nonexistent, nothing, not even being called a void. They do not display the very property of the darkness which it's being proposed that they are formed from, they have positive energy, the very thing that the negative energy of hell clashes with and erases so I disagree with any form of NEP at all

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Since Astral, Berga and Astraphel above me basically share the same points (just different in length of elaboration) I'll make a single reply as to not clog the thread with train of pages.

So y'all are making a syllogism to come to the conclusion that Demons embody what they represent as the other core elemental spirits. With points being :-

P1. All spirits are born from the primordial Great Spirits (including Main 5 ones).
P2. The main 5 Spirits are AE1 existences themselves.
C - The Demons, which are born from Great Spirit of darkness must therefore also be Darkness/non-existence in their ontology itself.

This is one of the methods to prove it, yeah. Though there are also other methods such as the World Cross Travel method.

See, i understood that part already, and it's not a bad point tbh. But the thing which still sorta makes me hit the brakes on the conclusion is certain terms which doesn't have explanation as to why they are even there.

I'll try to clear them up, but lemme know if I missed some.

Point being, I don't see why the narrative would say that the ruler Demon is a "personification" of darkness, when that figure of speech made to describe like characteristics for things which obviously aren't the same as what they are compared to.

Because:

1. The context is talking about them being them being born of Darkness. The timeline of that quote is when no other demons were born, so it's fair to call the first one at that time the personification of darkness, since the other embodied darkness elemenals/Demons were born later.
2. Because Spirits in general (which would naturally include darkness spirits) are embodiments of their Laws/Attributes. And in that very same context Angels and Demons are called Elemental Spirits

Scan for 1:

Those were the Devil Lords, the seven Primal Demons derived from the great elemental spirit of darkness—and he was the first, the king of the underworld, the core realm of darkness.

Scan for 2:

Elemental spirits like Ifrit are bound by these physical laws… Or to put it another way, they’re the embodiments of the laws governing the world, and apparently there are eight types of these embodiments. The light and dark attributes are somewhat special, with light being derived from angels—and darkness from demons. The angels and demons I know of so far could be called elemental spirits, technically, if you trace their roots. Someone like Diablo could tell me more if I asked, but I’m not that interested, and it’s not like I could do much with the knowledge anyway.

Also why would they use the term "could be" for Demons if, in ontology, they are still spirits? Afterall the criterion for labeling something as "Spirit" is based on them being embodiment of laws, as in being AE1 themselves rather than them being part of the 5 main elemental spirits.

It is "can be called", so for example, how all cars can be called vehicles. How you and I can be called a wanker


Ifrit, for example, is a Fire Spirit, but not all fire spirits are Ifrit. There are salamanders, enki, etc. etc. They are all still however Spirits and still embody their respective laws.
Same way, Demons can be called Elemental Spirits of Darkness, but not all elemental spirits of darkness can be called demons.


There are also other pieces of evidence. For example, how someone coming to a semi-physical world means having their body reconstructed to semi-physical form and having their soul also broken down and reconstructed. (Scans in the OP)

There's also the fact that Hell has weak ahh fodders. So while sure higher spiritual lifeforms can resist the Darkness of Hell by cancelling out its nothingness with their overwhelmingly positive existence, what about fodder demons? They would instantly nuked when even higher spiritual lifeforms have to resist the NEP effect.

The only way that won't happen is if they are NEP (darkness) themselves.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Agree with the points brought up by my no. 1 glazer, disagree for a different reason.

Being the embodiment / personification of something isn't equivalent to being that thing. The darkness of hell is supposed to be something with negative existence value and clashes with positive existence until its negative energy is canceled out and becomes zero. Demons also need to show this property if they are to be considered the thing they are embodying in question.

The embodiment part is only for NEP aspect 5 (Law). Demons are derived from great spirit of darkness as all other elementals are, so they'd have to be made up of darkness just as how, for example, a fire spirit is quite literally fire itself.

We don't have Demons come in their NEP form in the physical world or the main world. They need to incarnate physically. So as @Dark_Soul20189 pointed it out earlier, we are only giving NEP to their spiritual form, not their physically incarnated form.

Their ability to survive in hell is simply resistance to that kind of existence erasure (void manipulation). Given how the darkness of hell works, were they truly NEP be it in the underworld or otherwise, there is no reason as to why they would be erased in the depths of hell in other words, if they were actually negative energy, they wouldn't be erased by the negative energy of hell in the first place.

We have it currently accepted that depths of Hell are +1 Layer of NEP, so this argument doesn't work.

It also goes against how weak demons can exist in hell too. Why would we assume they have resistance that only higher slfs do precisely because of their overwhelmingly positive existence?

Nihilistic magic did its work by using its negative EP to annihilate matter and existence. If so, then saturating the area with positive energy would cancel the damage, reducing it to zero. As a giant, Daggrull was an enormous mass of magicules. Even Nihilistic Parade, which contained Gadora’s full power, would be no match for him.

There's no mention of them being nonexistent, nothing,

Being derived from darkness (NEP).

not even being called a void.

They are characters, not structures.

They do not display the very property of the darkness which it's being proposed that they are formed from, they have positive energy, the very thing that the negative energy of hell clashes with and erases so I disagree with any form of NEP at all

Because they don't bust out their NEP form in the physical world...

However, if they DO bust out in their spiritual form (and this is a rule for all elementals, including Demons), their energy (in demons' case, NEP) would react with the environment, eventually dispersing:

High-level elementals didn’t have that kind of power, so when they left the spiritual world, their energy would disperse, and they would disappear. This is the fate that awaited any type of spirit-based life-form in the physical world, including angels and demons. To keep their energy from fading away, they must either find a physical receptacle to form a pact with or a way to physically incarnate themselves. That, in essence, was what made the material body so important in this world.
V4C7 OTL

We don't have any actual portrayal of this from a high lvl character cuz they are always in their physically incarnated form. They can switch to their spirit form, but there's no point in reducing their own energy.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

I'll try to clear them up, but lemme know if I missed some.

Because:

1. The context is talking about them being them being born of Darkness. The timeline of that quote is when no other demons were born, so it's fair to call the first one at that time the personification of darkness, since the other embodied darkness elemenals/Demons were born later.

Tbh this doesn't change anything. Whether they were born before others or later doesn't make it clear for narrative to use the term "personification". Afterall, if you are darkness itself then there's no need to use personification to define you even if you were the first example from the list.

2. Because Spirits in general (which would naturally include darkness spirits) are embodiments of their Laws/Attributes. And in that very same context Angels and Demons are called Elemental Spirits
Scan for 1:

The main 5 spirits are AE1 embodiments because of the weight of narrative evidences. But the special attributes seems exceptional.

It is "can be called", so for example, how all cars can be called vehicles.

Both the scans the OP out uses "could be" tho. Regardless it's still the same with "can be", just that "could be" is a stronger case for denial.

How you and I can be called a wanker

I don't wank, i only de-wank (for Mg as well, just days ago debunked ACCA5 for Mg).

Ifrit, for example, is a Fire Spirit, but not all fire spirits are Ifrit. There are salamanders, enki, etc. etc. They are all still however Spirits and still embody their respective laws.
Same way, Demons can be called Elemental Spirits of Darkness, but not all elemental spirits of darkness can be called demons.

This brings me to one question. If other spirits are laws themselves, does that mean these demons are also laws of non-existence ? I would think that ones need that evidence on the plate as well to prove their point.

There are also other pieces of evidence. For example, how someone coming to a semi-physical world means having their body reconstructed to semi-physical form and having their soul also broken down and reconstructed. (Scans in the OP)

Don't see it's relevance.

There's also the fact that Hell has weak ahh fodders. So while sure higher spiritual lifeforms can resist the Darkness of Hell by cancelling out its nothingness with their overwhelmingly positive existence, what about fodder demons? They would instantly nuked when even higher spiritual lifeforms have to resist the NEP effect.

The only way that won't happen is if they are NEP (darkness) themselves.

This can simple be attributed to the fact that these Demons were born from darkness. So they may very well have the affinity towards darkness based places, thereby giving them natural resistances from birth.

The metric used by Higher SLFs and Demons to resist The Void seems different afterall. Where SLFs uses their immense postive energy, the demons have it by birth due to their affinity towards darkness. Because of this difference in metric, i would personally not use this point to draw a equavalent position for Demons.