Classroom of the Elite/Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e Discussion Thread

[XxZetsuxX]

Why?

I don't remember the reason

I assume me and Reggor wanted to make alot of calcs before making a CRT? mabye something like that? honestly i don't remember

 

[Lilybitdun]

has anyone calced ayano being able to make a small space through an elevator that's big enough to crawl through?

 

[RoggerReggor]

someone should prob make that

I am too just busy IRL, plus I plan to do some more feats, the anime might release in some months and may give some more feats, I just plan on doing one giant CRT and get it over with, plus this isn't a huge upgrade in any way, it is actually reachable through maybe even scaling chain.

The CGM seems to have only accepted the first feat not the second one.

I think it's pretty clear, he said, "This should work." and then proceeded to make arguments for the one part which had ends.

He hasn't made any message regarding rejection of the other part.

No. Psychomaster clearly refered to the first feat. The reason he said "low ends" is because Rogger first calculated the force required to break an arm with two hands which had a low and a high end, then multiplied it with 2 because Ichika was gonna do it with one hand, which also had a low and a high end.

Also the second feat only has one end so if he accepted both, he would've said something like "The low ends of the first feat should work. The second feat looks fine too".

I don't even think it's worth arguing in this, considering basic grammar and the language rules for specificity itself.

Though, to simply summarize, your interpretation would have been pretty much correct if he used "the low ends on ONLY the first feat should work".

Either way, as I said, I wouldn't LIKE AT ALL to argue something basically this simple.

He either didn't evaluate the second feat, or rejected it. In this case, the rejection assumption makes more sense as the feat itself goes aganist KE rules, plus the timeframe is kinda random.

The second feat easily follows the KE rules considering how it damaged Ichika as it should have (despite the property of human bodies to absorb impact). It even outright mentions the property of "momentum" which is closely related with KE itself, so much so that KE is directly proportional to the square of momentum.

The timeframe is chosen from the 0.08s perception time usage for all kinds of peak human - superhuman characters thread, though I don't know if it has been changed right now or not.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I assume me and Reggor wanted to make alot of calcs before making a CRT? mabye something like that? honestly i don't remember

It's nothing like this, it's just that I have a crazy number of internships and jobs right now to take care of, so my social media preference is limited right now (haven't consistently scaled anything in months right now).

 

[RoggerReggor]

has anyone calced ayano being able to make a small space through an elevator that's big enough to crawl through?

That feat has lack of information right now, though I have tried to make sense of its Japanese version and something can be done with it, I GUESS.

 

[Dinozxd]

I don't even think it's worth arguing in this, considering basic grammar and the language rules for specificity itself.

Though, to simply summarize, your interpretation would have been pretty much correct if he used "the low ends on ONLY the first feat should work".

Either way, as I said, I wouldn't LIKE AT ALL to argue something basically this simple.

I already low-key stated that I might have misunderstood his evaluation above.

My argument wasn't an interpretation. It was basically what I understood from his reply, which turned out to be false. Non-english speakers can misunderstand english. Nothin crazy.

The second feat easily follows the KE rules considering how it damaged Ichika as it should have (despite the property of human bodies to absorb impact). It even outright mentions the property of "momentum" which is closely related with KE itself, so much so that KE is directly proportional to the square of momentum.

The KE feat rules page states that the verse needs to consistently recognize KE for KE feats like this to be accepted though. It does also state that the feat in question should directly shown to be a result of speed, which matches your reasoning, but the examples given for that doesn't (like a meteor crashing on the ground). I'm kinda confused tbh

The timeframe is chosen from the 0.08s perception time usage for all kinds of peak human - superhuman characters thread, though I don't know if it has been changed right now or not.

That timeframe is used for blitzing superhuman characters and Koji isn't really blitzing her in the feat. It's even stated that Ichika reacted and tried to respond to the throw, but couldn't and got slammed.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I already low-key stated that I might have misunderstood his evaluation above.

My argument wasn't an interpretation. It was basically what I understood from his reply, which turned out to be false. Non-english speakers can misunderstand english. Nothin crazy.

No worries, fair enough.

(I am not a native English speaker either so it's alright.)

The KE feat rules page states that the verse needs to consistently recognize KE for KE feats like this to be accepted though. It does also state that the feat in question should directly shown to be a result of speed, which matches your reasoning, but the examples given for that doesn't (like a meteor crashing on the ground). I'm kinda confused tbh

I don't really think everything in VSBW has its exact cases (I have seen it many times that the ability pages examples don't really match the cases but they are still somewhat acceptable). Momentum is directly related to KE even through the scope of physics itself so, I think that should work.

That timeframe is used for blitzing superhuman characters and Koji isn't really blitzing her in the feat. It's even stated that Ichika reacted and tried to respond to the throw, but couldn't and got slammed.

I get your point, but what I am referring to is this change (basically, 0.08s is usable as a "peak human's reaction time" according to here).

 

[Dinozxd]

(I am not a native English speaker either so it's alright.)

Damn. You speak well. Whats ur english level?

I don't really think everything in VSBW has its exact cases

But all of the examples have stuff that are huge in mass (like a meteor or a kaiju), which kinda matches with this rule:

A certain character moves at a certain speed while carrying an object, that would require superhuman strength to be carried.

Tho I agree that not all examples in vsb do match with their description, so I'm kinda neutral here.

Momentum is directly related to KE even through the scope of physics itself so, I think that should work.

That goes for every attack if we're going off of physics though.

I get your point, but what I am referring to is this change (basically, 0.08s is usable as a "peak human's reaction time" according to here).

As far as I know, that timeframe only applies to perception blitzes as the wiki doesn't really recognize reaction blitzes as blitzes. Even if it did, this doesn't really look like a blitz situation as Koji gets behind her before the throw, so he doesn't really need to throw her so fast to the point where she can't react, he just needs to do it fast to do the max damage. All that thread was about was basically getting rid of the 0.029s timeframe and replace it with either 0.08 and 0.1s.

I personally would go for the timeframe of pro judokas' throw, which seems to be 0.7-1.14s for a relatively fast throw but "Shoving down" isn't really a judo waza (technique) so I don't really know what he's doing here. He states that he gets behind her, which would kinda limit his speed as throws from the back position are slower compared to throws from other positions. There's also the factor that the timeframe I linked takes all the stages of the throw (Kumi Kata-Kuzushi-Tsukuri-Kake) into account and bla bla bla...

As a dude who used to practice judo (3 years with breaks, 1 year without), I'd say the Kake (the throwing part) takes like, 20% of the timeframe I linked above which would be 0.14-0.228s. As this is implied to be a back throw (or a variation of it), I'd use the higher end of 0.228s, though it wouldn't be a reliable timeframe since It's basically guesswork. If you find a source that just lists the throwing part, it would be usable.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Damn. You speak well. Whats ur english level?

Thanks, I appreciate that. It's around 8 IELTS belts for me (roughly C1).

But all of the examples have stuff that are huge in mass (like a meteor or a kaiju), which kinda matches with this rule:

Tho I agree that not all examples in vsb do match with their description, so I'm kinda neutral here.

Real.

That goes for every attack if we're going off of physics though.

Well yeah, but not every attack actually does explain the reasons and methodology using physics terminology for its own explanation.

As far as I know, that timeframe only applies to perception blitzes as the wiki doesn't really recognize reaction blitzes as blitzes.

Quoting from Speed Blitz:

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them.

Even if it did, this doesn't really look like a blitz situation as Koji gets behind her before the throw, so he doesn't really need to throw her so fast to the point where she can't react, he just needs to do it fast to do the max damage. All that thread was about was basically getting rid of the 0.029s timeframe and replace it with either 0.08 and 0.1s.

It's narratively a reaction blitz, it outright says, "shifted her attention to me, and clenched her left hand into a fist. However, I didn't give her the chance to do anything.", making it practically obvious that Ichika couldn't LITERALLY do anything after her action of fist clenching.

Even if it didn't mention the line making it obvious that it was a reaction blitz (I am talking about a condition where it wouldn't), it would probably be higher, considering how in that case, Ichika would go for a punch, we would use about 14 m/s (for peak humans, I am not using the exact one but it is about this as far as I recall) and an arm's length of about 0.7 meters (it would definitely be lower), and we get that the time frame would definitely be lower than 0.7/14 = 0.05s which is considerably lower than 0.08s, but as for here, I think it's pretty reasonable to go with this, considering how DMUA, a very experience CGM himself said that 0.08s is usable for a peak human "reaction" time itself.

I personally would go for the timeframe of pro judokas' throw, which seems to be 0.7-1.14s for a relatively fast throw but "Shoving down" isn't really a judo waza (technique) so I don't really know what he's doing here. He states that he gets behind her, which would kinda limit his speed as throws from the back position are slower compared to throws from other positions. There's also the factor that the timeframe I linked takes all the stages of the throw (Kumi Kata-Kuzushi-Tsukuri-Kake) into account and bla bla bla...

As a dude who used to practice judo (3 years with breaks, 1 year without), I'd say the Kake (the throwing part) takes like, 20% of the timeframe I linked above which would be 0.14-0.228s. As this is implied to be a back throw (or a variation of it), I'd use the higher end of 0.228s, though it wouldn't be a reliable timeframe since It's basically guesswork. If you find a source that just lists the throwing part, it would be usable.

Judou throws timeframe is extremely vague to be used here. He's just shoving herself down (impacting her from the backside and making her body rotate in a right angle to the down side), instead of carrying her and then throwing her using a leverage (more fitting for a Judou throw).

Secondly, that timeframe would give a peak human result at best, even though we know that this feat would obviously be above that by a large mile.

Characters like Suzune who are Street level are massively below Ichika considering how a single attack from Ichika is enough to have Suzune actually have rest for a matter of minutes, so Ichika may as well be Street level+ (considering how her narrative allows her to scale massively above characters who are above Suzune herself), and considering how this attack from Kiyotaka caused Ichika's internal body to pressure air outside, kind of similar to the action where you punch someone in the solar plexus, just that solar plexus doesn't really have a concept of durability as much as other body parts, and here, it's regularly an entire body which is being attacked, so this attack is like of course superhuman, so it's better to see more reasons as to how a result which satisfies that list is found (not saying it's mandatory to find a superhuman result, of course, but giving a reason to think it's futile to find a more regular one).

Here, we have a confirmation that Ichika couldn't really do ANYTHING.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, keep in mind that 0.08s is a timeframe obtained from dividing a single meter by peak human speed, instead of it being a real peak human perception level (peak human perception levels can be as high as 1/220th of a second upon actual pilot readings, or maybe even higher), but we surely know that the ratings on the perception page aren't actually "perception" ratings, and therefore, I wouldn't like to precisely do it as such, lol.

 

[Dinozxd]

Thanks, I appreciate that. It's around 8 IELTS belts for me (roughly C1).

I should be around that level currently, considering I had a cambridge level test in middle school and I scored a B2, but you speak better than me lol. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

Well yeah, but not every attack actually does explain the reasons and methodology using physics terminology for its own explanation.

That's true, but there's also the fact that people with basic understanding of KE or momentum can probably deduce how much certain attacks would hurt and stuff without the fiction having to explain it. Though I agree that this feat in particular does something special by explaining the throw.

Quoting from Speed Blitz:

That's interesting. Didn't know the speed blitz page actually recognized a reaction blitz. I take that statement back then.

It's narratively a reaction blitz, it outright says, "shifted her attention to me, and clenched her left hand into a fist. However, I didn't give her the chance to do anything.", making it practically obvious that Ichika couldn't LITERALLY do anything after her action of fist clenching.

Well the bolded part seems too vague for a reaction blitz imo, as the "anything" part could refer to Ichika going for an attack rather than anything in the literal sense.

Also her not being able to do anything doesn't mean she straight up couldn't react, you can react to a punch that's about to hit you in the head and still can't do "anything" about it because, let's say, your guard was low. In this case the reaction in question would be something like flinching, closing your eyes, bracing for the impact, etc.

Judou throws timeframe is extremely vague to be used here. He's just shoving herself down (impacting her from the backside and making her body rotate in a right angle to the down side), instead of carrying her and then throwing her using a leverage (more fitting for a Judou throw).

I went with the judo throw assumption as Koji canonically knows and is a master of Judo, though It might be like those disarming techniques policemen use rather than that.

Secondly, that timeframe would give a peak human result at best, even though we know that this feat would obviously be above that by a large mile.

Characters like Suzune who are Street level are massively below Ichika considering how a single attack from Ichika is enough to have Suzune actually have rest for a matter of minutes, so Ichika may as well be Street level+ (considering how her narrative allows her to scale massively above characters who are above Suzune herself), and considering how this attack from Kiyotaka caused Ichika's internal body to pressure air outside, kind of similar to the action where you punch someone in the solar plexus, just that solar plexus doesn't really have a concept of durability as much as other body parts, and here, it's regularly an entire body which is being attacked, so this attack is like of course superhuman, so it's better to see more reasons as to how a result which satisfies that list is found (not saying it's mandatory to find a superhuman result, of course, but giving a reason to think it's futile to find a more regular one).

A judo throw (or any kind of shoving down method) with peak human speed is pretty much superhuman lol. I have sources stating that the Seoi Nage, a relatively fast shoulder throw performed by pro throwers only recorded 2.7 m/s (they're on my phone and I'm on my pc rn, so you just gotta trust my word on this one, though I can link it in my next reply if it gets questioned). Using basic KE calcs, a pro thrower slamming a 70 kg dude on the ground scales to 255 Joules, while slamming the same dude with baseline peak human speed scales to 3521 Joules. That's a 13x difference, which is massive considering how Koji didn't even use judo here.

I would agree on Ichika scaling to Street+, but using her stats to upscale a calc is invalidated by the "Hiding Calculations" rule, I think. It's mostly used for speed calcs, but this case matches the rule as well.

(peak human perception levels can be as high as 1/220th of a second upon actual pilot readings, or maybe even higher)

This isn't accepted anywhere in the wiki.

but we surely know that the ratings on the perception page aren't actually "perception" ratings, and therefore, I wouldn't like to precisely do it as such, lol.

Well... Rules are rules, in the end.

 

[Lilybitdun]

seems like reaction blitz but just not a perception blitz
still fast enough to see it but not fast enough to actually do anything in response
I think the current calc is fine

 

[RoggerReggor]

I should be around that level currently, considering I had a cambridge level test in middle school and I scored a B2, but you speak better than me lol. Practice makes perfect, I guess.

That's not true, I just like typing more professionally (not necessarily a "correct" or a "perfect" way), and have experience of living a few years in Europe, so that's one of the reasons, yeah, but I have my own moments where I personally suck too.

The difference between B2 and C1 is somewhat negligible as it is more on the basis of vocabulary, I personally have seen people with a B1 behave like C1s or C2s in their speaking manner, it's only that vocabulary makes that difference. C2 of course, is vastly a very different tier of vocabulary.

Also her not being able to do anything doesn't mean she straight up couldn't react, you can react to a punch that's about to hit you in the head and still can't do "anything" about it because, let's say, your guard was low. In this case the reaction in question would be something like flinching, closing your eyes, bracing for the impact, etc.

I have read this and acknowledged (the cut part too). I know the judou arguments are more of information based rather than an actual refutal, so I will leave it at that and say that I agree with it.

I will address the arguments up in a specific thread, as continuing it here might just be a waste of time for both of us. But I do have an exact elaboration needed which can solve this.

This isn't accepted anywhere in the wiki.

I know, I am just mentioning that perception levels CAN be that high. We even have MIT research with 0.013s.

EDIT: To just tell that the wiki itself accepts that the ratings on the perception speed level table isn't exactly precise.

Well... Rules are rules, in the end.

Yes, that's why I tried to link the response done by DMUA to clear that. I got your point before.

 

[Dinozxd]

That's not true, I just like typing more professionally (not necessarily a "correct" or a "perfect" way), and have experience of living a few years in Europe, so that's one of the reasons, yeah,

That's what I'm lacking, lol. I'm planning on doing that too in college though.

but I have my own moments where I personally suck too.

Relatable.

I have read this and acknowledged (the cut part too). I know the judou arguments are more of information based rather than an actual refutal, so I will leave it at that and say that I agree with it.

I will address the arguments up in a specific thread, as continuing it here might just be a waste of time for both of us. But I do have an exact elaboration needed which can solve this.

Alright.

EDIT: To just tell that the wiki itself accepts that the ratings on the perception speed level table isn't exactly precise.

True.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

Uhh, Ayanokoji's profile is kind of cooked right now. Anyone wants to fix it?

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka

Note: Spoiler Alert (Details beyond the anime will be revealed below) Ayanokouji Kiyotaka is the main protagonist and narrator of the Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e series. Initially an average and socially awkward student who constantly advances the story proves to be...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Fixed

 

[Greatsage13th]

An invitation: https://vsbattles.com/threads/did-i...uji-vs-a-man-from-foshan.184816/#post-7353581

 

[Vzearr]

Save Ayanokoji's profile. Vzearr!

 

[VladimirMakarov317]

Vladimir Makarov vs Ayanokoji

Fight takes place in a school Both have their standard equipment Makarov: Ayanokoji: Incon:

vsbattles.com

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Rematch: The Perfect Human vs The Greatest Boxer (0-0-0)

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka vs Yu Rules: Starting Distance: 15 meters Location: UFC Ring No prep time. No prior knowledge. ANHS Ayanokouji, no equipment. Start of series Yu, no equipment. Both are in character but willing to kill. Ayanokouji stats: Ap: At least 29.4 Kilojoules Dura: At least 49.3...

vsbattles.com

 

[XxZetsuxX]

White Room Master Piece VS Amur Tigro

Ayanokouji (ANHS) vs Shin Kim Rules: Speed is equalised. Starting Distance: 10 meters Location: Abandoned City No prep time, Kim Shin has prior knowledge Kim Shin has knives on him Ayanokouji's AP: 29,4 Kilojoules, 49,3 Kilojoules durability Kim Shin's AP: 73.73 Kilojoules Ayanokouji's...

vsbattles.com

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I was thinking, shouldn't 5th gen WR students (like Yagami and Ichika) have technique mimicry as well? Not to the same degree as Kiyo ofc, but in Y2V7 it's pretty blatantly shown that she was able to go from an utter novice in volleyball, yet after watching Nanase and Horikita she became as good as them instantly after within like...20 or 40 minutes arguably? Lol

 

[RoggerReggor]

I was thinking, shouldn't 5th gen WR students (like Yagami and Ichika) have technique mimicry as well? Not to the same degree as Kiyo ofc, but in Y2V7 it's pretty blatantly shown that she was able to go from an utter novice in volleyball, yet after watching Nanase and Horikita she became as good as them instantly after within like...20 or 40 minutes arguably? Lol

I don't disagree but isn't that just extremely fast learning ability?

I seriously don't mind but is it really a lot to add as an entire ability?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Nuh

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I don't disagree but isn't that just extremely fast learning ability?

I seriously don't mind but is it really a lot to add as an entire ability?

I mean that's what technique mimicry is basically lol, maybe we could put limited technique mimicry?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Nuh

This is why Kiyo said you'll always be a tool bro

 

[RoggerReggor]

I mean that's what technique mimicry is basically lol, maybe we could put limited technique mimicry?

We already have it limited for Kiyotaka too, due to the reason that it only applies to the stuff near to the stuff he has already practiced (basically almost everything).

I don't know, can be given a try.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I think we could pull it off, I guess maybe specify that the effectiveness of it is lower for 5th gen WR students like her and Yagami maybe?

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think we could pull it off, I guess maybe specify that the effectiveness of it is lower for 5th gen WR students like her and Yagami maybe?

Yes, most likely. It is her learning after seeing someone, so I guess it does fit the "mimicking" thing.

 

[DemarSL]

I wonder how they’ll animate Koenji vs the 3rd years in the anime.

 

[Fwkiyo]

has anyone calced ayano being able to make a small space through an elevator that's big enough to crawl through?

I have a friend who has a scale for it, but it was made a while back (2022)

 

[DeltaStriker22]

New Koji match.

The Perfect Human plays Hide-and Seek with a Serial Killer (0-0-0)

Kiyotaka Ayanokouji vs Yuuichi Katagiri Rules: Speed is not equalized aside from Ayanokouji. Ayanokouji's travel speed has been equalized to Shiho Sawaragi (The fastest member of Team Yuuichi). The characters are playing the Friendship Hide-And-Seek game from Tomodachi Game. Team...

vsbattles.com

 

[Doggo]

Hi

 

[RoggerReggor]

Hi

Heyyyy.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Smart Ass VS Serial Killer

Manabu vs Dexter (Season 8) Rules: Speed is unequalised. Starting Distance: 10 meters Location: Supermarket No prep time or prior knowledge Dexter only has a knife on him Manabu's AP: 4,6 KJ Dexter's AP: 31.6 KJ Manabu's advantages: More Skilled More analytical Better senses Higher LS...

vsbattles.com

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Hi

Hallo

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I asked staff to fix the names of the characters

Ryuen, Ishizaki, Ishigami, Tsukishiro, Shiba and Sudo

 

[Aguyyoucanmeetinirl]

Upscale of doom and despair. Nanase now mach 0.6 or sum like that if the trailer wasn't sped up, sonion making visual shockwaves while leaping 8m in a single frame

 

[Aguyyoucanmeetinirl]

just did a leap of 7m in 1 frame or sum at 12s. Imma calc ts

 

[Aguyyoucanmeetinirl]

Nvm, about mach 0.4 which is less than I expected. Btw what is Nanase height?