And this is to go Even Further Beyond!(Dragon Ball Classic, Z Super AP + Speed Upgrade and revamp)

[ProudLearner]

We need to be conservative with the multipliers. Those numbers are an exaggeration.

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

SS2 Teen Gohan (He's a teenager in the Buu Saga) was ~ with Dabura and equal to his Cell Games self in base and G4, but not in SS2 because he couldn't tap into his full potential through rage like he did against Cell.

It is actually a translation error, and the Chozensu 1 (guide that compiles and updates the information from Daishenzu 2 and 4) says something else.

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Gp972]

@StarShooter80 mind having a second look?

 

[Overvoid69]

It is actually a translation error, and the Chozensu 1 (guide that compiles and updates the information from Daishenzu 2 and 4) says something else.

Hmm yeah "his strength hasn't increased" makes more sense then. However SS Kid Gohan > SPC does not work:

SS2 Kid Gohan at 50% or less beating SPC doesn't mean G4 Kid Gohan scales to SPC, because he has a rage amp (this is already accepted on the wiki). And in the raws: Majin Vegeta actually did expect SS2 Goku to be greater then SS2 Kid Gohan, so it doesn't have to mean G4 Vegeta was weaker then Kid G4 Gohan. Because he expected for someone above him to also already surpass SS2 Kid Gohan, and you once again didn't account for SS2 Kid Gohan having a rage amp:

SS2 Kid Gohan (Rage Amp) > SS2 Vegeta (Pre Majin) does not mean G4 Kid Gohan > G4 Vegeta, because Vegeta going from SS2 to G4 isn't the same value as Kid Gohan doing it.

 

[Gp972]

Hmm yeah "his strength hasn't increased" makes more sense then. However SS Kid Gohan > SPC does not work:

SS2 Kid Gohan at 50% or less beating SPC doesn't mean G4 Kid Gohan scales to SPC, because he has a rage amp (this is already accepted on the wiki). And in the raws: Majin Vegeta actually did expect SS2 Goku to be greater then SS2 Kid Gohan, so it doesn't have to mean G4 Vegeta was weaker then Kid G4 Gohan. Because he expected for someone above him to also already surpass SS2 Kid Gohan, and you once again didn't account for SS2 Kid Gohan having a rage amp:

SS2 Kid Gohan (Rage Amp) > SS2 Vegeta (Pre Majin) does not mean G4 Kid Gohan > G4 Vegeta, because Vegeta going from SS2 to G4 isn't the same value as Kid Gohan doing it.

Vegeta only mentioned that Goku is superior to Gohan when he transforms into SSJ2 against him.

So:

Goku ssj2 ≈ Majin vegeta > Gohan ssj2 > Goku ssj2 vs Yakon > Vegeta ssj2

 

[Gp972]

Hmm yeah "his strength hasn't increased" makes more sense then. However SS Kid Gohan > SPC does not work:

SS2 Kid Gohan at 50% or less beating SPC doesn't mean G4 Kid Gohan scales to SPC, because he has a rage amp (this is already accepted on the wiki). And in the raws: Majin Vegeta actually did expect SS2 Goku to be greater then SS2 Kid Gohan, so it doesn't have to mean G4 Vegeta was weaker then Kid G4 Gohan. Because he expected for someone above him to also already surpass SS2 Kid Gohan, and you once again didn't account for SS2 Kid Gohan having a rage amp:

SS2 Kid Gohan (Rage Amp) > SS2 Vegeta (Pre Majin) does not mean G4 Kid Gohan > G4 Vegeta, because Vegeta going from SS2 to G4 isn't the same value as Kid Gohan doing it.

And the Rage Amp, they only accepted it to justify Gohan having such a variable power level in the fight

 

[Overvoid69]

Vegeta only mentioned that Goku is superior to Gohan when he transforms into SSJ2 against him.

So:

Goku ssj2 ≈ Majin vegeta > Gohan ssj2 > Goku ssj2 vs Yakon > Vegeta ssj2

This is a fallacy. Vegeta not commenting on Gokus power in comparison to Gohan in the Yakon fight doesn't mean he's stronger when he is compared to Gohan.

And the Rage Amp, they only accepted it to justify Gohan having such a variable power level in the fight

I don't get what ur trying to insinuate with this. Either way it does exist and it works by releasing Gohans full potential on top of SS2, via rage (so call it a rage amp or his full potential/ full latent power or whatever)

 

[Gp972]

This is a fallacy. Vegeta not commenting on Gokus power in comparison to Gohan in the Yakon fight doesn't mean he's stronger when he is compared to Gohan.

I don't get what ur trying to insinuate with this. Either way it does exist and it works by releasing Gohans full potential on top of SS2, via rage (so call it a rage amp or his full potential/ full latent power or whatever)

Okay Gohan, even though Gohan SSJ1 doesn't scale, Gohan SSJ2 50% does, so the AP value remains the same.

 

[Gp972]

This is a fallacy. Vegeta not commenting on Gokus power in comparison to Gohan in the Yakon fight doesn't mean he's stronger when he is compared to Gohan.

I don't get what ur trying to insinuate with this. Either way it does exist and it works by releasing Gohans full potential on top of SS2, via rage (so call it a rage amp or his full potential/ full latent power or whatever)

Furthermore, Gohan had already stopped being angry when Cell returned

 

[Overvoid69]

Okay Gohan, even though Gohan SSJ1 doesn't scale, Gohan SSJ2 50% does, so the AP value remains the same.

Yeah 50% Kid SS2 Gohan can scale that's fine, but wasn't 50% or less being his ki amount and not output nuked in a thread already? :https://vsbattles.com/threads/ssj2-gohan-should-not-be-2x-stronger-than-super-perfect-cell.166428/

Furthermore, Gohan had already stopped being angry when Cell returned

How do we know this? He has more reason to be angry now. Before it was just the Cell Jrs attacking his friends, now Cell has killed Trunks and made Gokus sacrifice worthless.

 

[Gp972]

Yeah 50% Kid SS2 Gohan can scale that's fine, but wasn't 50% or less being his ki amount and not output nuked in a thread already? :https://vsbattles.com/threads/ssj2-gohan-should-not-be-2x-stronger-than-super-perfect-cell.166428/

Yes, but a technique is one thing and battle damage is another, Goku lost against Tambourine because he was tired (meaning his energy from battle damage limited his power), Vegeta in the Saiyan saga comments that his power is pathetic after being beaten up, So when you lose energy due to damage, it limits your power

 

[Overvoid69]

Yes, but a technique is one thing and battle damage is another, Goku lost against Tambourine because he was tired (meaning his energy from battle damage limited his power), Vegeta in the Saiyan saga comments that his power is pathetic after being beaten up, So when you lose energy due to damage, it limits your power

You should add that to the original post then

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[AyOgUyS]

These multipliers seem incredibly large to me, egregiously so. Are we sure there are not more reliable and conservative methods of finding the multipliers?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

We need to be go further with the multipliers. Those numbers are downplay

I wholeheartedly agree This is sarcasm

 

[Gp972]

These multipliers seem incredibly large to me, egregiously so. Are we sure there are not more reliable and conservative methods of finding the multipliers?

Perhaps I could use the mention of Vados that the fusion increases tens of times and that Gogeta SSJ4 with one finger is tens of times a normal SSJ4

 

[AyOgUyS]

Perhaps I could use the mention of Vados that the fusion increases tens of times and that Gogeta SSJ4 with one finger is tens of times a normal SSJ4

That seems far more reliable than millions to billions of times multipliers. I do not think Akira intended for such absurdly high multipliers.

 

[Gp972]

That seems far more reliable than millions to billions of times multipliers. I do not think Akira intended for such absurdly high multipliers.

In the anime they say "Several ten of times" so it would be at least x30

 

[AyOgUyS]

In the anime they say "Several ten of times" so it would be at least x30

that seems far more in line with previous stated multipliers, I believe the CRT should be updated, the proposed multipliers seem egregiously high to me

 

[Gp972]

that seems far more in line with previous stated multipliers, I believe the CRT should be updated, the proposed multipliers seem egregiously high to me

Okey so I found a mention of Zamasu in the SSJ2 multiplier that uses the same kanji as when Vados talks about the Potara fusion, so it well be a A+B times 100

Vegeto(Majin buu saga) should be at least Goku ssj3 + Vegeta ssj2 times 100 because we don't know how much the rival bonus increases power

 

[AyOgUyS]

Okey so I found a mention of Zamasu in the SSJ2 multiplier that uses the same kanji as when Vados talks about the Potara fusion, so it will be a A+B times 100

Ok

 

[Gp972]

Bump

 

[Breadbear83]

There's a statement about zarbon s transformation increasing his stats by "several times" (3x to 4x multiplier) Zarbon profile recognizes this statement and I think the old AP/speed ratings used it



This should at least affect the multipliers in AP and speed of characters that don't scale to First from Frieza feat

Also you you put post north Kai piccolo as MFTL+ when he is MFTL
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...uettatons (Brown Dwarf level+) & >720c (MFTL+

 

[Gp972]

There's a statement about zarbon s transformation increasing his stats by "several times" (3x to 4x multiplier) Zarbon profile recognizes this statement and I think the old AP/speed ratings used it



This should at least affect the multipliers in AP and speed of characters that don't scale to First from Frieza feat

Also you you put post north Kai piccolo as MFTL+ when he is MFTL
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gp972/Dragon_Ball_Manga_Statistical_Ratings#:~:text=Post North Kai Piccolo: 5.92986678 Quettatons (Brown Dwarf level+) & >720c (MFTL+

Okey i will change that and add that, thank you for your input

 

[Breadbear83]

Okey i will change that and add that, thank you for your input

np, also 2nd zenkai vegeta upscales from zarbon as he beat down him while transformed, and so recoome, jeece and burter

idk if its fair upscaling (very minor 1.2x increase), but Base goku completely overwhelmed both Jeece and Burter in speed, if he was 2x their speed (216 c from upscaling from transformed zarbon) then base post gravity training goku would be 432 c, which would so upscale many other stuff

 

[Gp972]

np, also 2nd zenkai vegeta upscales from zarbon as he beat down him while transformed, and so recoome, jeece and burter

idk if its fair upscaling (very minor 1.2x increase), but Base goku completely overwhelmed both Jeece and Burter in speed, if he was 2x their speed (216 c from upscaling from transformed zarbon) then base post gravity training goku would be 432 c, which would so upscale many other stuff

Yes, I already adjusted the scale, and about the base Goku x2, Jeice, and Burter thing, I'm not really sure.

 

[Breadbear83]

Yes, I already adjusted the scale, and about the base Goku x2, Jeice, and Burter thing, I'm not really sure.

Fair thing, besides that, about ultra instinct multiplier, I believe it should be 100x stronger than ssjblue

I recall the arguments for it multiplier was that Goku's Genkidama in base was already implied to be stronger than an hypothetical ssj blue kaioken 20 kame hame ha (which it's said there to be 3x multiplier to 60x from ssjblue) and then he uses ssj blue with kaioken 20x to get to 80x from a ssj blue


Thing is from most of AP ratings, charged attacks are 4x from physicals, as piccolo makankosappo could kill a Raditz that was 3x times stronger (needing an attack far stronger) and that Krillin kame hame ha can kill 4 saibamans equal to Raditz, with Krillin physicals being comparable to Raditz

Therefore ssjblue kaioken 20 kame hame ha is 80x from ssj blue, and the Genkidama+ssj blue kaioken 20 is 100x from ssj blue kaioken 20

On top of that, maybe in the anime at least it may be implied that mastered ultra instinct is also 4x from UI sign? Goku with UI sign used kame hame ha against kefla ssj2, and when he gained mastered ultra instinct, even the god stand up to him, clearly making a power gap at least of that level where it was more impressive the strength of mastered ultra instinct than ui sign Kame hame ha


(Also because of charged attacks being 4x, the imperfect cell that tanked piccolos attack would be 4x times stronger and not just 3x, after absorbing android 17 he would be 5x times stronger than Piccolo and android 17)

 

[Gp972]

Fair thing, besides that, about ultra instinct multiplier, I believe it should be 100x stronger than ssjblue

I recall the arguments for it multiplier was that Goku's Genkidama in base was already implied to be stronger than an hypothetical ssj blue kaioken 20 kame hame ha (which it's said there to be 3x multiplier to 60x from ssjblue) and then he uses ssj blue with kaioken 20x to get to 80x from a ssj blue


Thing is from most of AP ratings, charged attacks are 4x from physicals, as piccolo makankosappo could kill a Raditz that was 3x times stronger (needing an attack far stronger) and that Krillin kame hame ha can kill 4 saibamans equal to Raditz, with Krillin physicals being comparable to Raditz

Therefore ssjblue kaioken 20 kame hame ha is 80x from ssj blue, and the Genkidama+ssj blue kaioken 20 is 100x from ssj blue kaioken 20

On top of that, maybe in the anime at least it may be implied that mastered ultra instinct is also 4x from UI sign? Goku with UI sign used kame hame ha against kefla ssj2, and when he gained mastered ultra instinct, even the god stand up to him, clearly making a power gap at least of that level where it was more impressive the strength of mastered ultra instinct than ui sign Kame hame ha


(Also because of charged attacks being 4x, the imperfect cell that tanked piccolos attack would be 4x times stronger and not just 3x, after absorbing android 17 he would be 5x times stronger than Piccolo and android 17)

Well, On the Crunchyroll website there's a game, and at the end, if you get Ultra Instinct, it says it multiplies the previous form by 2 or 3 times. In Dragon Ball Super, Goku SSJ4 ≈ Goku SSJB and Goku SSJ4LB ≈ Goku UI sign, The lb should be superior to full power ssj4 (which is a x10)

 

[Breadbear83]

Well, On the Crunchyroll website there's a game, and at the end, if you get Ultra Instinct, it says it multiplies the previous form by 2 or 3 times. In Dragon Ball Super, Goku SSJ4 ≈ Goku SSJB and Goku SSJ4LB ≈ Goku UI sign, The lb should be superior to full power ssj4 (which is a x10)

Idk what game you are talking about, or if such statement applies to anime and manga,

I check and (in the anime speed ratings) post UI sign ssj blue Goku scales to his past UI sign, so that UI sign Goku kaioken agument doesn't applies so well as it's a weaker ui sign Goku, but maybe it does

There still the charged attacks, across most of the statistics you have the charged attacks being 4x the character physicals, so same for imperfect cell tanking Piccolos attack

Ui sign multiplier was accepted from this: https://share.google/1vxuOwzIPKVXXyucK

But if it's consistently accepted that charged attacks are 4x from physicals, then UI sign is actually 100x from ssj blue

 

[Gp972]

Idk what game you are talking about, or if such statement applies to anime and manga,

I check and (in the anime speed ratings) post UI sign ssj blue Goku scales to his past UI sign, so that UI sign Goku kaioken agument doesn't applies so well as it's a weaker ui sign Goku, but maybe it does

There still the charged attacks, across most of the statistics you have the charged attacks being 4x the character physicals, so same for imperfect cell tanking Piccolos attack

This, Also the thing about the Piccolo attack I need to prove it's stronger than the Makankonsapo at that point, and I think the x4 only applies to the Kamehameha.

 

[Breadbear83]

This, Also the thing about the Piccolo attack I need to prove it's stronger than the Makankonsapo at that point, and I think the x4 only applies to the Kamehameha.

Oh, but with transformations it would refer to ssj blue kaioken 20x too? Saying your previous transformations it's weird too, and if it doesn't refer to only ssj blue kaioken 20, but also with weaker transformations like a mere ssjblue, then that's straight up inconsistent with kaioken multipliers, and already a "varying multiplier"

I have doubts about the statements canonicity too, if it's something only done by Crunchyroll then even if official it's not necessarily canon


About piccolo makankosappo, in Raditz fight Piccolos makankosappo was stronger than Gokus kame hame ha, definitively piccolo mastered the technique even more, it definitively being at least somewhat comparable to kame hame has in general

 

[Gp972]

Oh, but with transformations it would refer to ssj blue kaioken 20x too? Saying your previous transformations it's weird too, and if it doesn't refer to only ssj blue kaioken 20, but also with weaker transformations like a mere ssjblue, then that's straight up inconsistent with kaioken multipliers, and already a "varying multiplier"

I have doubts about the statements canonicity too, if it's something only done by Crunchyroll then even if official it's not necessarily canon


About piccolo makankosappo, in Raditz fight Piccolos makankosappo was stronger than Gokus kame hame ha, definitively piccolo mastered the technique even more, it definitively being at least somewhat comparable to kame hame has in general

Okay, I found the statement where Piccolo says that Goku's Kamehameha from the Saiyan Saga wasn't a big deal.

 

[Breadbear83]

Okay, I found the statement where Piccolo says that Goku's Kamehameha from the Saiyan Saga wasn't a big deal.

So you will add imperfect cell as 4x base Piccolo? And so semi perfect cell as 5x?

Also besides the ultra instinct multiplier.


You have cell games ssj1 Goku being 94.8778 Kiloquettatons of TNT, which would be 3.9696 Foes of AP, and has a speed of 11.52 c

Characters that are 5.265 Foes in AP like cell games base Gohan, and Early Buu saga base goku and Vegeta, as they have higher AP than cell games ssj1 Goku, they would also scale to his speed of 11.52 million c (you had them as 5.76 million c)

Also Buu saga base Gohan being 2.6325 foes scale to characters that are 47.4389 Kiloquettatons of TNT (5.76 million c)

 

[Gp972]

¿Entonces añadirás celdas imperfectas como 4x base Piccolo? ¿Y celdas semiperfectas como 5x?

Además del multiplicador de ultra instinto.


Tienes a Goku SSJ1 de los Juegos de Cell con una potencia de 94.8778 kiloquetatones de TNT, lo que equivaldría a 3.9696 Foes de AP, y una velocidad de 11.52 c.

Personajes que son enemigos de 5.265 en AP como Gohan base de los juegos de Cell, y Goku y Vegeta base de la saga temprana de Buu, ya que tienen un AP más alto que Goku SSJ1 de los juegos de Cell, también escalarían a su velocidad de 11.52 millones c (los tenías como 5.76 millones c).

Además, Gohan de la saga de Buu es 2.6325 enemigos en escala a personajes que son 47.4389 kiloquetatones de TNT (5.76 millones c)

doI think it would be better to leave it at x3, because I checked carefully and Krillin didn't do a Kamehameha with the Saibamen, so I feel that x3 would be better, plus x4 would mean changing the whole speed blog Starting with Piccolo, and it's a lot of work

 

[Gp972]

I don't know what will happen to this thread if they delete the Multipliers.

 

[Breadbear83]

I don't know what will happen to this thread if they delete the Multipliers.

Not all multipliers would be nuked, at least some would, its just the scaling would rely more on calcs

Your statistical ratings have a few more multipliers than the current official ones, maybe you can give ideas for what multipliers use to whatever fears end up being used


Not that it's fully decided, 2/3 of the mods voted for deleting them