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Symbol of Fear vs Final Bastion of Reason (Tomura Shigaraki vs Julius Novachrono) [5-15-7]

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This just reads as cope arguments. It's as blatant as words could ever be that Overlay is just a cracked speed boost.
It is stated verbatim in the manga that Shigaraki grew to such speed and its on profile as well.

Btw this is all accepted on profiles so arguing against it here wouldn't do anything. Both Shigaraki's blitz growth and Deku's overlay speed
alright
the last part still holds up tho
Shigaraki is not shown to actively use that said blitz as one of his first moves, even with potential danger coming
So it should not be considered his very first move, esp with something like Chrono Stasis which is not deadly combined with TP
 
The whole "blitz" amps here is sus for me and I agree with Leona btw. It's accepted so just gonna have to deal with it tho

I have two problems with this. The first is that most of Shigaraki's range attacks would be too difficult to stop or contain due to their sheer Area of Effect.


Fair enough on those attacks not being able to being contained and redirected.

Danger Sense doesn't need hostility to be directed at Shigaraki. A person having the intent to harm Shigaraki in the near future without using an attack that would harm him still triggers it. I mentioned this above in my previous comment, where Danger Sense also detected Low Gear, Smokescreen and Black Whip before Deku even tried to attack him.
Huh??? In all of those situations Deku still had the intent to do X in that moment that the danger sense detected that hostility and made Shigaraki aware of it subconsciously. It detects it because he was about to use it, it won't detect the true danger of Julius' attacks at the very least until he goes to use one with the intent of hitting him and danger sense actually senses what he's about to do.

I also don't know why he wouldn't take Julius seriously after he tests out the waters and sees that the guy keeps teleporting and is making himself essentially untouchable.
I said at first, of course as the fight continues he will slowly pick it up and get more serious, point is that for some reason the people are here saying "Shigaraki will just immediatly go for a blitz" in almost frame 1 of the fight which (even if I disagree he can even do that), he wouldn't do that frame 1 AT ALL in this case and only later into the fight.

As said above, most of Shigaraki's usual ranged options would have too large of an AoE to contain and store. And even if Julius is able to catch and contain something like Impure Beams, then Shigaraki would have no issue aim dodging it with his Danger Sense, or just straight up tanking it. In fact, Julius using faster attacks would just speed up Shigaraki's adaptation, as he continuously adapted to Deku's speedblitzes after getting pummeled. Something I want to know is how fast Julius' anticipation can get? At the moment, Julius' rating is 0.89c. If he's capped by the speed of light, then his anticipations would only get like 12% faster, unless I'm getting something wrong. That doesn't quite compare to Shigaraki being able to adapt to become blitz levels faster than his initial speed.
The cap at lightspeed honestly makes no sense in-verse considering theres over 2x multipliers in the series that would make characters immediatly FTL but they get ignored because it'd go over lightspeed (this isn't even a joke, go look at Langris' profile and how it uses the multiplier but then no other profiles uses it and the chain scaling gets stopped because they realise that a singular more multiplier would reach FTL 😭, there's stated speed multipliers way above that Langris that get ignored because of that)
Julius' anticipation only depends on how long the fight draws out, it's like adaptation, the longer the fight goes on the faster and faster he will anticipate stuff. But if you want an example of how fast he grows, in a single sequence he goes from getting his anticipation basically blitzed and gets hit by Patry's light to then completely anticipating to a degree that Patry could barely move his hand with him saying that he can see his future and that he doesn't stand a chance even though he was just faster moments ago.
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And later he would shows that he was much faster again by Patry having to activate arrows of judgement with the power he had stored to escape.
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So it is a pretty relevant boost yes, it's damn near blitz almost instantly.

Those "much larger-scale attacks" still aren't large enough to contain Shigaraki's AoE attacks or his giant Flesh Fortress (if he ever gets that far).
The point isn't that they would contain Shigaraki's AoE attacks but Shigaraki himself, the moment he himself he gets hit by that attack he loses.

As for the Mana Zone, Shigaraki would either spawn the giant Flesh Fortress to prevent himself from getting instantly obliterated, or just start dashing to escape his controlled area. As mentioned above, it seems that simply staying on the move makes it difficult enough for Julius to hit you.
Giant Flesh Fortress is a suicide because... existence erasure and Julius will spawn it exactly where his body is.
Dashing around will help against the small chronos yes which is why I said if Julius can (and I showed he can) use large sized spheres, that no longer applies as even if he can dodge the small ones the big ones have way too much range to escape.

His information analysis works by reading Mana. First we would have to establish whether Shigaraki has mana in this scenario or is just an anomaly like Asta. Second, you'd have to give me an example of Mana reading being able to tell mages about specific abilities, outside of attributes, including abilities that aren't mana based.
In situations like this where the verse's abilities rely on someone having X energy for them to work it is assumed that the person fighting will always at least some of that energy. Biggest example of this is JJK match-ups where the opponents are always given at least basic CE so the abilities can work on them.

That specific showing of damage reversal seems far too slow to matter. Decay should be pretty proportionate with Shigaraki's speed.
It isn't really, it's just Julius taking his time to even start healing it which he wouldn't when he can realise that if he doesnt heal shiga's decay fast he will die.

The version I am saying is the one he did againts the demon, that engulf his whole arm, that is enough AoE to catch shigaraki, I will continue reading your argument, I recently returned
Well if he hits that then it's just a win for him, not an inconclusive, Shigaraki has no way of winning if he ever gets hit by any of the time attacks.

The thing is that everyone is literally saying that thanks to danger sense he is not gonna do that and he is gonna use speed amps to one shot first and not do any decay shenanigans with AoE, if that was his true first option, then I would believe Julius can win for precog that, teleport, mana zone and spam chronostasis
Which makes no sense via what danger sense is. Danger sense isnt some future sight that tells him everything about the opponent before the opponent does anything, it simply allows him to predict and sense hostility and attacks coming (and his body will also dodge on his own). Shigaraki in literally NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM will go for a blitz immediatly frame 1.

Shiggy is not gonna start with decay wave when Danger Sense and Search are screaming at him that this dude can easily **** him up if goes for his usual strategies.
I'm sorry, HOW exactly are danger sense and search meant to scream at him when Julius haas not used a single attack? Danger Sense is good yes, but yall are acting like it quite literally lets shigaraki just KNOW what people have, just KNOW what people will do by looking at them standing there. That's NOT how it works man. Just quoting myself:
The reason I don’t think this just becomes "Danger Sense tells him about threat = win" is because of how Julius fights in contrast.

Julius is basically the opposite of Shigaraki in how they fight. He keeps his distance and mainly focuses on defense and analyzing his opponent before even using actual attacks once. Against Patry, for example, he doesn’t attack mostly at all at first, he focuses entirely on defense while looking at the situation while trying to work out the most effective way to end the fight and for openings to seal him, he also uses that chance as well to continuously adapt, anticipating attacks faster and faster.
When Julius uses Chrono Stasis here, he uses it to stop incoming attacks rather than directly targeting their spell to the opponent. So that wouldn't trigger Danger Sense, since there’s no direct hostile intent toward Shigaraki in those moments, so he would not find out about the threat level here (at first) and would simply sense how weak Julius is physically via his Extrasensory Perception (which would actually backfire and just make him not take Julius as serious). So the fight wouldn't be "short" and/or immediate.
 
But was still tricked by Deku simply putting a soul into his blood huh? Why didnt he just see both at the same time right in front of him? And no, her not having to see means she can see them if they're in her field of vision (we saw that), that is however the same as seeing things everywhere around yourself
Shigaraki did actually detect the Black Whip coming from behind him, but the light was identical to Izuku's, and since Danger Sense was also activated by it, Shigaraki subconsciously gave priority to the Black Whip. Besides, Julius wouldn't be able to replicate such feat.




he can just stop this by putting time spell in front of himself
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What exactly is happening here...?

Soo, i have been meaning to ask, can someone explain to me why it's a comparable increase to gearshift and fa jin exactly? as far as i remember, he mostly starts keeping up with Deku VIA stealing Danger sense, not via some arbitrary "quirk perception blitz amps" (that he never used before)
As he even himself implies that he's now able to dodge Deku's hits due to acquiring Danger Sense, and not because he's blitz amps faster
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And even when Deku is extremely injured all over, and has his gearshift stop working, he does not just... insta blitz Deku?? why?
On the other hand we literally see Deku STILL outperform Shigaraki even with Shigaraki having danger sense and Deku not using gearshift
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Yes Deku used a decoy to get close and blah blah, but we can clearly see him duck to dodge Shigaraki's hand and punch him straight in his chest, with this Shigaraki supposedly being gearshift + fa jin + danger sense all working together lvl, meaning perception blitz lvl over this deku, meaning he should be able to easily dodge and kill Deku right here, but he was not fast enough
I already explained this, but Overlay is just indeed that crazy of a speed amp. Deku himself was at one point invisible to Shigaraki's perception due to sheer speed, and then he amped himself again by combining Fa Jin and Gearshift, but Shigaraki was able to quickly adapt to match his speed. In this specific panel, Shigaraki's Danger Sense was already tweaking and forcing him to defend himself without even understanding why. So it did help him react, hence the flesh armor he made, but Izuku was just too fast and too strong. Shigaraki was simply not a perception blitz above this Izuku. As to why Overlay is that fast, I couldn't tell you. If I had to headcanon it, it's probably a mixture of adrenaline, rage power, and the typical "plus ultra" power-up you get in MHA.

And Shiggy even then failed to touch Deku
Also

Or maybe danger sense cant sense every single thing perfectly and has its limits too?
Not at all what happened. Izuku managed to slash off his fingers to avoid getting decayed, but failed to prevent getting touched by his palm and still ended up getting his quirk snatched. And we literally get a panel that shows Danger Sense's vestige holder is the ONLY one of the vestiges to react to Shigaraki's soul hand, and is the only reason EVERYONE else in the vestige world didn't get snatched away, including OFA's vestige holder himself.



So yes, Danger Sense is the only reason Deku survived that moment.

He says to cope with his speed, as Deku is really injured and also suffering the recoil of Gearshift, so he has to somehow keep moving
To literally quote the panel" "I'll have to cope with Shigaraki's speed without the use of the Second's Gearshift". What part of that implies that Izuku was only using Overlay to keep moving and is not a speed amp? In fact, what part of the entire fight makes you think that Gearshift isn't that good of a speed amp, so Shigaraki adapting to it wouldn't be a big deal? The whole point of Gearshift is that it made him strong enough and fast enough to keep up with and overwhelm Shigaraki before he adapted to make it useless. Overlay is just on par with that speed.

Well that's a.. flimsy argument to justify a really big but questionable speed amp, to be completely honest, but alright
Shigga more likely just didnt grow that much in speed
Not really, It's just going off of what the manga is telling you. Arguing that Gearshift, Fa Jin and Overlay aren't significant speed advantages just sounds like cope to me.

Also the showings of Shigaraki not going for a blitz with Deku, when he could, really put into a question if his first move would be a blitz just because of a danger sense going off
Except he literally did? He outsped Gearshift + Fa Jin amped Izuku to the point that Danger Sense was the only thing helping him react and saving him from losing all his powers. After that, he just had no reason to blitz Izuku because he thought the fight was over, so he smacked him all the way to Fuji (which was noted to be on purpose) so he could erupt the mountain and spread decay to show Izuku how powerless he was. And during the final exchange, Deku was using Overlay, which as we established, is on par with that speed.
 
Is this mostly about speed? Cuz Julius should neg with some big time balls
It mostly became a situation of what will happen in-character as both characters can one shot but apparently Shiggy for some reason is accepted as having a blitz amp here on the wiki (thats where the speed discussion comes from) so its about scenario right now since Julius also has stuff like his anticipation etc etc. Just read the main points (huge messages) of the thread really.
 
The whole "blitz" amps here is sus for me and I agree with Leona btw. It's accepted so just gonna have to deal with it tho
I don't see any logic in denying their existence. These speed amps are some of the most blatant blitzes I've ever seen.

Huh??? In all of those situations Deku still had the intent to do X in that moment that the danger sense detected that hostility and made Shigaraki aware of it subconsciously. It detects it because he was about to use it, it won't detect the true danger of Julius' attacks at the very least until he goes to use one with the intent of hitting him and danger sense actually senses what he's about to do.
I don't understand this argument at all. If Julius has intent to finish the fight, in any way, whether that's killing Shigaraki, hurting him, or restraining him, Danger Sense will pick up that malice, and has been shown preventing blitzes before. Are you saying that Julius is just an emotionless slate with so little threat level that Danger Sense just has nothing to pick up on?

Julius' anticipation only depends on how long the fight draws out, it's like adaptation, the longer the fight goes on the faster and faster he will anticipate stuff. But if you want an example of how fast he grows, in a single sequence he goes from getting his anticipation basically blitzed and gets hit by Patry's light to then completely anticipating to a degree that Patry could barely move his hand with him saying that he can see his future and that he doesn't stand a chance even though he was just faster moments ago.
aDwp825.png
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p1MjZBr.png
D8WMUSb.png

And later he would shows that he was much faster again by Patry having to activate arrows of judgement with the power he had stored to escape.
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rva58Y6.png

So it is a pretty relevant boost yes, it's damn near blitz almost instantly.
None of that is on par with the levels of speed Shigaraki has adapted to. None of that even really seems like a speed blitz to me. Sure, he teleports behind Patry and surprises him, but Patry still reacts and avoids his attacks. At one point he even has a whole exestential crisis and inner monologue before starting to move. The same thing would happen here with Shigaraki.

I said at first, of course as the fight continues he will slowly pick it up and get more serious, point is that for some reason the people are here saying "Shigaraki will just immediatly go for a blitz" in almost frame 1 of the fight which (even if I disagree he can even do that), he wouldn't do that frame 1 AT ALL in this case and only later into the fight.
I don't think anyone said that a speed blitz would be his first move. They just acknowledged that if Julius puts enough pressure on him at the start, then he'll resort to that quickly, and he would.

In situations like this where the verse's abilities rely on someone having X energy for them to work it is assumed that the person fighting will always at least some of that energy. Biggest example of this is JJK match-ups where the opponents are always given at least basic CE so the abilities can work on them.
That scenario doesn't apply here. Simply having mana wouldn't trigger his information analysis, because Shigaraki's abilities aren't mana-based, nor are they based on any sort of energy system that can be equalized to Mana. Quirks are mainly biological mutations, which means the powers he uses stem from his own body and not some abstract form of life energy.

It isn't really, it's just Julius taking his time to even start healing it which he wouldn't when he can realise that if he doesnt heal shiga's decay fast he will die.
I doubt he'd be fast enough to reverse Decay, but sure, I'll grant him that.


Which makes no sense via what danger sense is. Danger sense isnt some future sight that tells him everything about the opponent before the opponent does anything, it simply allows him to predict and sense hostility and attacks coming (and his body will also dodge on his own). Shigaraki in literally NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM will go for a blitz immediatly frame 1.


I'm sorry, HOW exactly are danger sense and search meant to scream at him when Julius haas not used a single attack? Danger Sense is good yes, but yall are acting like it quite literally lets shigaraki just KNOW what people have, just KNOW what people will do by looking at them standing there. That's NOT how it works man. Just quoting myself:
I repeated myself multiple times at this point. But Danger Sense on its own isn't that powerful. It's reading someone's threat level and reacting to their ill-intent. It's what Shigaraki uses to combo it that makes it deadly. Search constantly tracks the soul, scans for weaknesses, and finds opening. And Shigaraki's own adaptation + analytical prediction and information analysis is what makes sensing hostility so powerful. Especially when his body itself can move to respond to killing blows without him needing to even comprehend what exactly is happening.
 
Shigaraki did actually detect the Black Whip coming from behind him
With danger sense yeah, the light itself from search he had to turn around and see (which is as you say what confused him), i was specifically talking about search's capabilities
What exactly is happening here...?
Ya know already
Julius is blocking a large beam with time magic, meaning putting that in front of himself would stop em waves and etc
As to why Overlay is that fast, I couldn't tell you. If I had to headcanon it, it's probably a mixture of adrenaline, rage power, and the typical "plus ultra" power-up you get in MHA.
Moving on from this then
Not really, It's just going off of what the manga is telling you. Arguing that Gearshift, Fa Jin and Overlay aren't significant speed advantages just sounds like cope to me.
Not arguing that about Gearshift and Fa jin, but about Shigaraki's amp and Overlay, since they are clearly inconsistent and require a bunch of stretches to work and make sense, but as i said above we can move on from this
Except he literally did? He outsped Gearshift + Fa Jin amped Izuku to the point that Danger Sense was the only thing helping him react and saving him from losing all his powers.
That wasnt his first move tho? and he doesnt go for a blitz right after? and this is fighting Deku of all people, the guy he wants dead the most and who he already knows is very dangerous, but for some reason his first move would be using all quirks or wtv to amp his speed massively against Julius? It's a pretty notable trait that Shigaraki likes to play around
It's reading someone's threat level and reacting to their ill-intent.
He can maybe somehow read overall threat lvl, he can't know what exactly, how exactly and when exactly is coming, with Julius yet again just having to cast Chrono Stasis
After that, he just had no reason to blitz Izuku because he thought the fight was over, so he smacked him all the way to Fuji (which was noted to be on purpose) so he could erupt the mountain and spread decay to show Izuku how powerless he was. And during the final exchange, Deku was using Overlay, which as we established, is on par with that speed.
That sounds like cope tbh, he never used blitz because x y z, but NOW he will tho. Julius simply restraining shiggy with chrono stasis however is a perfectly fine starting move, which might not even be done with any particular ill intent
 
How much was bro paid to write this.



Julius' anticipation only depends on how long the fight draws out, it's like adaptation, the longer the fight goes on the faster and faster he will anticipate stuff. But if you want an example of how fast he grows, in a single sequence he goes from getting his anticipation basically blitzed and gets hit by Patry's light to then completely anticipating to a degree that Patry could barely move his hand with him saying that he can see his future and that he doesn't stand a chance even though he was just faster moments ago.
How can "anticipation" grow "faster"?

Isn't it more like he learns his opponent's moves and how to better analyse them for to counterattack an attack he can foresee rather than...speed?

This doesn't physically or mentally increase his reaction speed, but rather helps him manage deal with speed gaps within the confines already allowed by his existing reaction speed unless I read this incorrectly.

If you can move fast enough for him to not be able to even think or compute, anticipation becomes meaningless.


Why am I arguing I don't care who wins
 
How can "anticipation" grow "faster"?

Isn't it more like he learns his opponent's moves and how to better analyse them for to counterattack an attack he can foresee rather than...speed?
Well it's not a matter of how, because it's just stated to
This doesn't physically or mentally increase his reaction speed
Yes but the result it achieves is the same, he is able to react and plan out his moves better
His precog gets better so therefore he can react better, so it's the same as your reaction speed increasing
Why am I arguing I don't care who wins
😭
 
Well it's not a matter of how, because it's just stated to

Yes but the result it achieves is the same, he is able to react and plan out his moves better
His precog gets better so therefore he can react better, so it's the same as your reaction speed increasing

You're having a bit of a misconception here, but to give an analogy, imagine a bunch of basic math equations passing by you (2+2, 4+6+77, etc).

And they get faster each second
Certainly, with time, assuming you're like Julius, the speed at which you can calculate gets faster, so you can perform those basic formulas at a faster rate within the confines of what you can process, but no matter how fast you perform the calculations, if they pass by so fast you can't even begin to see the numbers, you won't be able to calculate them.

Anticipating faster just means making the best of the cognitive ressources available/being more efficient with them, not getting "faster" in the conventional sense.
🫠
 
Maybe I am wrong, but also everyone here seems to have forget that:

Statistics Amplification (By borrowing mana from nature, Mana Zone boosts magical power and speed of the user<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Julius_Novachrono#cite_note-BC44-47"><span>[</span>47<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Julius_Novachrono#cite_note-BC132-48"><span>[</span>48<span>]</span></a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Julius_Novachrono#cite_note-BC138-45"><span>[</span>45<span>]</span></a>)


So Julius also can get faster mid fight, I don't remember when incon is gonna end but I think is in like 20 minutes? So we can just add this and continue our lifes
 
Shiggy has the speed advantage. Search and danger sense will tell him about the abilities of Julius, so Shiggy isn't playing. Shigaraki does not need to evolve to be able to blitz him, no one is erasing his quirks that provide the amps in this fight, so he'll just use them.

Shiggy wins.
 
Shiggy has the speed advantage. Search and danger sense will tell him about the abilities of Julius, so Shiggy isn't playing. Shigaraki does not need to evolve to be able to blitz him, no one is erasing his quirks that provide the amps in this fight, so he'll just use them.

Shiggy wins.
You already have voted lol
 
I still don't see how danger sense and search helps Shiggy deal with having a spell spawned on him. Julius has true precog as well, so any blitz attempt can be easily mitigated.
 
I still don't see how danger sense and search helps Shiggy deal with having a spell spawned on him. Julius has true precog as well, so any blitz attempt can be easily mitigated.
My reasoning to vote incon is that the fight ends in like 4 seconds (massive wank considering the speed but is a way to explain it) because shiggy is crazy, will try to blitz using 40 quirks with speed amps and Julius like you said, with precog, tries to stop that and:

Dies

Or is able to do it

Or is able to do it but is killed for the attack

So is inconclusive (for me), if Shiggy does not instantly go for blitz+ kill, Julius wins at the end because Julius is gonna catch him for getting better with his precog or just using AoE

And if you are asking "but the spell spawns on him", Patry dodged the spells spawning on him for being faster, so Shiggy who will be faster for his blitzes can do it, at least is what everyone is saying from Shiggy side

No idea if you have read everything though, I won't blame you to be honest
 
And if you are asking "but the spell spawns on him", Patry dodged the spells spawning on him for being faster, so Shiggy who will be faster for his blitzes can do it, at least is what everyone is saying from Shiggy side
iirc, Patry had a bit of prior knowledge of Julius' abilities (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think just being faster is enough here, especially when Julius can keep spam-spawning those type of attacks.
 
iirc, Patry had a bit of prior knowledge of Julius' abilities
He did not know about how his time magic worked at 100%

He did not know Julius could for example steal time to heal himself, nor his precog, and even less how his grimoire worked

He could possibly knew about time stop and EE/age manipulation for seeing or being informed when Julius killed some of his men and stopped the time of Rades and such

And he even believed light magic was supreme because his speed was insane and was just "gg, you can't touch me", Julius showed him how wrong he was and that is why Patry used the swords to kill all the citizens and tired him out, because otherwise he would have lost


So like, if Shiggy truly can just scan Julius abilities with search, go faster with blitz amps etc, then like I said earlier, this fight is Julius vs Patry but Julius is not holding back (something that was also an advantage to Patry) but this patry (shiggy) is way better at everything

I don't care who votes who anyway, I am not even trying to convince anyone to vote incon, just explaining things and giving my opinion
 
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