The References of Monism in Shadow Fight (STAFF NEEDED—1 MORE)

[Astral_Trinity439]

Neutral on the thread itself.
However, I do think this needs a summarized wording, and try pinging staff to that. Here's how I understood it:

The Void is Eternal, incomprehensible, Infinity, beyond the edge of reality, having no such thing as "Not (A)" in it, no duality, as all things lose their meaning and distinctions, which includes universal laws, worlds, dimensions, reality and unreality, true and false, past and future, with all things seen as one unified, simultaneous Whole as All become Nothing and Nothing become All — It's the birthplace of worlds, their source/origin and end, the foundation of all creation where all is possible, so immensely vast that travel becomes impossible without a special device.

Notes:

• I didn't include things I didn't understand (mostly plot related stuff)
• I didn't include things that needed translations or were rule-breaking (will elaborate below).
• This is just my interpretation, and it can as easily be false as it can be true.

Points
Also, what is this "realm of infinity"? The Void?
This scan needs translation by your TL helper staff
What does "Void's Dream" mean?
Idk if you can use this since the question seems leading
This also needs translation. This as well needs to be translated by our staff.
Do we have any scans of space and time being a duality in-verse?

 

[Vesxpura]

This scan needs translation by your TL helper staff

thats in reverse not a different language

also the op literally has ur summary, idk why ur making a new one

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

thats in reverse not a different language

Bruh
My brain auto-assigned "needs translation" instead of "it's reverse"

also the op literally has ur summary, idk why ur making a new one

OP has a scanless summary (if you're referring to conclusions) meaning you gotta read allat of the stuff above to understand anything. The one I gave is more like a compressed wording with all the scans in one para

 

[Vesxpura]

OP has a scanless summary (if you're referring to conclusions) meaning you gotta read allat of the stuff above to understand anything. The one I gave is more like a compressed wording with all the scans in one para

u right although the scans themselves are the main problem here. but thats fine

 

[Udlmaster]

So, from reading it and seeing some of the arguments, I don't think Monism is a good angle of attack, similar to the Buddhism argument from before.

Like I said in the last thread, I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A would be appropriate based on what is presented.

Since the basis for the Non-dualism angle is based on the Tenebrous language not using negations, and from what I can see, OP is taking that to mean that the very nature of the Void doesn't engage in Negations but I don't see that confirmed or cemented within the OP.

I think there can be some inference made, which is why I think "possibly" is fine, as the other parts of the post such as all things becoming meaningless and the origin of all creation, etc, etc are persuasive to it being higher tiers, but the Non-dualism state is what could push it over the edge.

Whether or not it is the case I think it's a balance of probability and so "possibly" seems fair to me.

On one side, if you don't think it means much, then Low 1-C seems accurate given it is superior to the Infinite multiverse, situating it above into a 5th dimensional axis.

 

[Vesxpura]

On one side, if you don't think it means much, then Low 1-C seems accurate given it is superior to the Infinite multiverse, situating it above into a 5th dimensional axis.

I dont think thats accurate either. since the wiki says that just being superior to a 2-A structure doesnt automatically mean its low 1-C. Also its currently being discussed whether or not AE and BDE qualify for HDE. And given that the void is that, nothingness and is non physical, i dont think itll qualify any time soon.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Also, what is this "realm of infinity"? The Void?

Yes, it's referring to the Void.

This scan needs translation by your TL helper staff

That's in reverse, Astral. I get your confusion though

What does "Void's Dream" mean?

The scan already tells you that, I believe. It's the avatar of the universe that's trying to understand her nature and seek meaning as a whole. The name itself could probably a symbolic to the Void's nature.

Idk if you can use this since the question seems leading

It's just a supporting evidence, the game already have that kind of statement as established in the OP.

This also needs translation. This as well needs to be translated by our staff.

Alright.

Do we have any scans of space and time being a duality in-verse?

Not that I'm aware of, but the idea is that there are no dualities in the verse because everything are of one nature.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Like I said in the last thread, I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A would be appropriate based on what is presented.

Since the basis for the Non-dualism angle is based on the Tenebrous language not using negations, and from what I can see, OP is taking that to mean that the very nature of the Void doesn't engage in Negations but I don't see that confirmed or cemented within the OP.

I think there can be some inference made, which is why I think "possibly" is fine, as the other parts of the post such as all things becoming meaningless and the origin of all creation, etc, etc are persuasive to it being higher tiers, but the Non-dualism state is what could push it over the edge.

I'm fine with a “possibly” rating, since the main purpose of this thread was to establish Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 3) and Acausality (Type 5) for the verse in the first place.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So, from reading it and seeing some of the arguments, I don't think Monism is a good angle of attack, similar to the Buddhism argument from before.

Like I said in the last thread, I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A would be appropriate based on what is presented.

Since the basis for the Non-dualism angle is based on the Tenebrous language not using negations, and from what I can see, OP is taking that to mean that the very nature of the Void doesn't engage in Negations but I don't see that confirmed or cemented within the OP.

I think there can be some inference made, which is why I think "possibly" is fine, as the other parts of the post such as all things becoming meaningless and the origin of all creation, etc, etc are persuasive to it being higher tiers, but the Non-dualism state is what could push it over the edge.

Whether or not it is the case I think it's a balance of probability and so "possibly" seems fair to me.

On one side, if you don't think it means much, then Low 1-C seems accurate given it is superior to the Infinite multiverse, situating it above into a 5th dimensional axis.

This seems like a reasonable approach.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Okay. That seems fine then.

We're almost reaching a conclusion, what's your final thought about this?

Summary:

Snip

Snip

Astral's summary:

Snip

Udlmaster's input:

Snip

DarkDragonMedeus's input:

This seems like a reasonable approach.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The scan already tells you that, I believe. It's the avatar of the universe that's trying to understand her nature and seek meaning as a whole. The name itself could probably a symbolic to the Void's nature.

Na I mean, is the "Void's dream" the Universe? Just a passing thought

It's just a supporting evidence, the game already have that kind of statement as established in the OP.

I would prefer using that over using this at all.

Not that I'm aware of, but the idea is that there are no dualities in the verse because everything are of one nature.

I mean, the human mind still perceives dualities, tho. So I was wondering if they have space and time as a duality (some verses do), which would mean the Void is beyond that duality too, and acts as a unified whole where the distinction between Space and Time dissolve into nothingness.

That would be more supporting evidence for 1-A

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Na I mean, is the "Void's dream" the Universe?

An avatar or vessel of the Universe.

I would prefer using that over using this at all.

Noted.

I mean, the human mind still perceives dualities, tho. So I was wondering if they have space and time as a duality (some verses do), which would mean the Void is beyond that duality too, and acts as a unified whole where the distinction between Space and Time dissolve into nothingness.

That would be more supporting evidence for 1-A

There are clear mentions of space-time as an aspect of the universe, that's for sure, but it is not explicitly established whether they function as a true duality. However, this is compensated by the treatment of “past” and “future” as a form of duality within the lesser reality. That should be sufficient, I think.

 

[Mythic381]

since the wiki says that just being superior to a 2-A structure doesnt automatically mean its low 1-C.

It depends on how the superiority in question is defined. Also, I'm assuming you're referring to the section that addresses constructs being larger than 2-A aren't automatically Low 1-C. There's still a difference between transcendence and size superiority to reach higher dimensions.

 

[Vesxpura]

It depends on how the superiority in question is defined. Also, I'm assuming you're referring to the section that addresses constructs being larger than 2-A aren't automatically Low 1-C. There's still a difference between transcendence and size superiority to reach higher dimensions.

as far as i can tell, it doesnt possess the superiority required, so i lwk js left it out of the equation. but that wouldnt matter in the first place since the void is non physical

 

[Antvasima]

So, from reading it and seeing some of the arguments, I don't think Monism is a good angle of attack, similar to the Buddhism argument from before.

Like I said in the last thread, I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A would be appropriate based on what is presented.

Since the basis for the Non-dualism angle is based on the Tenebrous language not using negations, and from what I can see, OP is taking that to mean that the very nature of the Void doesn't engage in Negations but I don't see that confirmed or cemented within the OP.

I think there can be some inference made, which is why I think "possibly" is fine, as the other parts of the post such as all things becoming meaningless and the origin of all creation, etc, etc are persuasive to it being higher tiers, but the Non-dualism state is what could push it over the edge.

Whether or not it is the case I think it's a balance of probability and so "possibly" seems fair to me.

On one side, if you don't think it means much, then Low 1-C seems accurate given it is superior to the Infinite multiverse, situating it above into a 5th dimensional axis.

Which characters would scale to this and why?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Which characters would scale to this and why?

Here:

Based on the aforementioned explanation, Tenebris and Architect would possess the following:

Abilities: Paraconsistent Physiology (Plurality), Non-existent Physiology (Type 2 and 3: All Aspect), and Acausality (Type 5)

Tier: The exact scaling remains somewhat uncertain, but they would reasonably fall within the 1-A range for being one in unity intrisically with the Void (with Architect as an exception as he is obviously beyond it).

 

[Antvasima]

@Udlmaster

What do you think about that?

 

[Richard5128pm]

As for the AP stats, what do you guys think of the conclusion proposed in the previous thread?

Tenebris (The Father / Creator) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A (Created everything in the void, which includes the countless number of worlds with their dualities and the Infinity beacon, which stretches to every part of the void, to act as a transportation and communication system.)

Architect (The Writer) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A (As the writer of the Shadow Fight series, Architect sees both Tenebris and The Void as fictional entities. Architect stated he can delete the entire world of Shadow Fight if he wills so. Kept up with Shadow, after the latter previously defeated Tenebris in combat.)

Shadow (Underworld) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A at peak (Defeated the underworld Gods and Tenebris in combat. In the TURN BACK ending, Shadow received power directly from the void, to shape reality with his hands and make peace with the Eternals.)

Sensei - 8-C | 8-C | 8-C, potentially Low 1-C, possibly 1-A with Void's power (Received the void's power alongside Shadow.)

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

As for the AP stats, what do you guys think of the conclusion proposed in the previous thread?

That description is rather too simplistic and underwhelming for something meant to represent a higher tier. I would propose something along these lines:

Tenebris

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Outerverse level (Stated to be the creator of everything and an implicit agent of the Void, a not-so-place or unknown place where everything exists and can exist, unified as a singular nature without true division into parts, serving as the baseline reality and source of all things while coexisting with them, yet not truly bound by them).

Architect

Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level, possibly Outerverse level (The creator of the Shadow Fight universe as a whole, treating it like a video game or fictional construct, and capable of destroying it at will. He have control over everything that exists in Shadow Fight, including Tenebris's ability, and the power to change the role of Shadow from previously muted to be able to talk).

 

[Richard5128pm]

That description is rather too simplistic and underwhelming for something meant to represent a higher tier. I would propose something along these lines:

Yes, those descriptions are just for reference. While applying to profiles, an in-depth explanation should be given.

What I’m asking about is the overall reasoning; Tenebris scales to the void via creation and level of existence —> Shadow defeats Tenebris (+ draws power from the void in Turn Back ending) —> Shadow fights Architect, this scales Architect to L1C/1-A.
Without shadow, Architect would scale to Low-1C/1-A only via Plot manipulation and data manipulation, not physically.
That’s why I’d like to put emphasise on the “at peak” part here

Shadow (Underworld) - Low 1-C, possibly 1-A at peak

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Yes, those descriptions are just for reference. While applying to profiles, an in-depth explanation should be given.

What I’m asking about is the overall reasoning; Tenebris scales to the void via creation and level of existence —> Shadow defeats Tenebris (+ draws power from the void in Turn Back ending) —> Shadow fights Architect, this scales Architect to L1C/1-A.
Without shadow, Architect would scale to Low-1C/1-A only via Plot manipulation and data manipulation, not physically.
That’s why I’d like to put emphasise on the “at peak” part here

I believe that's unnecessary. Architect does not need Shadow to grant him higher AP, whether physically or otherwise, as he can already achieve such levels through his own omnipotent will, for example, by instantly accessing or manifesting power comparable to Tenebris. In this sense, Architect does not scale from Shadow, he is simply already at that level by default. Likewise, Shadow does not scale to Architect, since his “victory” is not a genuine one, given the implications that Architect remains in control of the event throughout.

However, I also believe Shadow can reasonably be granted a higher tier. He is capable of outmatching Tenebris in combat and is explicitly empowered by the Void. Additionally, Architect's role further supports this, as he is responsible for writing Shadow's entire journey and shows no indication of ceasing that control. As such, Shadow's feats occur within a consistent framework, meaning that it can't be considered as anti-feats.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I believe that's unnecessary. Architect does not need Shadow to grant him higher AP, whether physically or otherwise, as he can already achieve such levels through his own omnipotent will, for example, by instantly accessing or manifesting power comparable to Tenebris.

All this can be explained as just plot/data manipulation, which won't be considered for physical stats. And, from what I've seen recently, assuming he physically scales to tenebris just because of his position as the writer isn't the best way to go.

In this sense, Architect does not scale from Shadow, he is simply already at that level by default. Likewise, Shadow does not scale to Architect, since his “victory” is not a genuine one, given the implications that Architect remains in control of the event throughout.

If we remove shadow from the equation, we get something like Unknown, Low 1-C, possibly 1-A via Plot/Data manipulation. Similar to the player from imscared.
Physical feats are important for physical stats, otherwise they'd be given Unknown. But this won't be an issue, since Shadow defeats Tenebris and Architect keeps up with Shadow in combat.

However, I also believe Shadow can reasonably be granted a higher tier. He is capable of outmatching Tenebris in combat and is explicitly empowered by the Void.

Indeed.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree about that physical statistics seem separate from plot manipulation statistics in this case.

 

[Voidnether]

Richard makes sense to me personally, also consider me disagreeing with the entire NEP2, Acausality type 5 and Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 as you'd need further evidence for that instead of basing it off Monad's characteristics

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Richard makes sense to me personally, also consider me disagreeing with the entire NEP2, Acausality type 5 and Paraconsistent Physiology type 3 as you'd need further evidence for that instead of basing it off Monad's characteristics

The reason it qualifies is because it inherently exhibits attributes associated with monism, not because I am arbitrarily forcing it to fit that framework. While I do argue that it aligns with monism characteristics, the conclusion is based on the properties being demonstrated (as in “in-verse”) rather than the label or implication itself.

As established, the Shadow Fight universe lacks true dualities. This is further supported by statements describing it as non-dual, particularly from the perspective of Tenebris's race (which is directly tied to the Void), where negation itself does not meaningfully apply.

This perspective originates from the Void, which perceives all distinctions as “combined”, or more accurately, as fundamentally unified. However, this is not a simple “both” state as seen in many-valued logic. It also rejects the notion of “neither” in the sense of treating categories as meaningful in the first place (as in both categories, for instances, “past” and “future” doesn't really exist). Instead, distinctions do not exist at all on a fundamental level. They are considered one not because they are simultaneously both, but because there is no valid basis to differentiate them. Hence it being said to be a single phenomenon. This aligns with monistic principles, where no true distinctions or dualities exist in an absolute sense, rather than with systems that still rely on multiple logical states. So, Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 3) would be highly applicable here, as the verse does not inherently operate under standard many-valued logic. Alternatively, even if interpreted that way, the Void would already transcend it, existing in a “fifth state” beyond its own emanations, which themselves operate in a “fourth state” (both and neither simultaneously).

As for Acausality (Type 5), it also follows logically. There are no meaningful distinctions between “past” and “future”, and the only true state is the present. The Void perceives reality in this manner, which is why it does not “predicts” (as in seeing or knowing) future events. Instead, it speaks as though events have already occurred (states), consistent with the idea that all points in time exist simultaneously across all realities. Add to the fact that the Void is not bound by this kind of principle as it exist as the very source of it, so its nature is completely beyond this.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

If we remove shadow from the equation, we get something like Unknown, Low 1-C, possibly 1-A via Plot/Data manipulation. Similar to the player from imscared.

It shouldn't be labeled as Unknown, since we do see him engage in combat. Regardless of whether it's achieved through Data Manipulation or not, it can still be considered a physical feat, as he was able to elevate himself to a state comparable to Tenebris through his own will. A good analogy would be increasing your stats by editing game files (for example, adding yourself an attack points worth of 99999999). Yes, it falls under Data Manipulation, but it still results in a tangible and lasting enhancement to your attributes.

Although I'm not necessarily against Architect scaling to Shadow physically, I just find it... unnecessary (like I said previously), as there are other ways to establish Architect’s physical feats. That's all.

 

[Richard5128pm]

It shouldn't be labeled as Unknown, since we do see him engage in combat.

That's my point: instead of relying solely on plot/data manipulation to explain his statistics, we treat his fight against Shadow as a physical feat. This is a much better way to put it...
That's why I'm advocating for adding Shadow to the OP, for physical statistics, similar to the conclusion proposed in the previous thread.
He won't receive the abilities below, though.

Abilities: Paraconsistent Physiology (Plurality), Non-existent Physiology (Type 2 and 3: All Aspect), and Acausality (Type 5)

 

[Vietthai96]

The reason it qualifies is because it inherently exhibits attributes associated with monism, not because I am arbitrarily forcing it to fit that framework. While I do argue that it aligns with monism characteristics, the conclusion is based on the properties being demonstrated (as in “in-verse”) rather than the label or implication itself.

As established, the Shadow Fight universe lacks true dualities. This is further supported by statements describing it as non-dual, particularly from the perspective of Tenebris's race (which is directly tied to the Void), where negation itself does not meaningfully apply.

This perspective originates from the Void, which perceives all distinctions as “combined”, or more accurately, as fundamentally unified. However, this is not a simple “both” state as seen in many-valued logic. It also rejects the notion of “neither” in the sense of treating categories as meaningful in the first place (as in both categories, for instances, “past” and “future” doesn't really exist). Instead, distinctions do not exist at all on a fundamental level. They are considered one not because they are simultaneously both, but because there is no valid basis to differentiate them. Hence it being said to be a single phenomenon. This aligns with monistic principles, where no true distinctions or dualities exist in an absolute sense, rather than with systems that still rely on multiple logical states. So, Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 3) would be highly applicable here, as the verse does not inherently operate under standard many-valued logic. Alternatively, even if interpreted that way, the Void would already transcend it, existing in a “fifth state” beyond its own emanations, which themselves operate in a “fourth state” (both and neither simultaneously).

As for Acausality (Type 5), it also follows logically. There are no meaningful distinctions between “past” and “future”, and the only true state is the present. The Void perceives reality in this manner, which is why it does not “predicts” (as in seeing or knowing) future events. Instead, it speaks as though events have already occurred (states), consistent with the idea that all points in time exist simultaneously across all realities. Add to the fact that the Void is not bound by this kind of principle as it exist as the very source of it, so its nature is completely beyond this.

it isn't monism, by your logic, Big Bang is also Monism cause it is a singularity where everything were one and originated from

As established, the Shadow Fight universe lacks true dualities. This is further supported by statements describing it as non-dual, particularly from the perspective of Tenebris's race (which is directly tied to the Void), where negation itself does not meaningfully apply.

Ultima rejected this in it another similar thread

First thing is really irrelevant. Someone having no concept of "not" doesn't mean non-duality, even if this is expressed in a language that warps reality. There is just nothing of note to evaluate here, really. The second paragraph's scan is also pretty vague, because it doesn't elaborate at all on what "truth combines with falsehood" means.

As i also have said in that same thread, the truth and falsehood is very vague, it need to establish truth and falsehood in a sense of logical duality, for your argument to work

(as in both categories, for instances, “past” and “future” doesn't really exist)

idk why you could even extrapolate this into Monism, when you don't have time, of course there is no past, present and future for you, that is also how a void without time is. Monism is an unified ground, not something that just lack things

because there is no valid basis to differentiate them

Ultima argument above

First thing is really irrelevant. Someone having no concept of "not" doesn't mean non-duality, even if this is expressed in a language that warps reality. There is just nothing of note to evaluate here, really. The second paragraph's scan is also pretty vague, because it doesn't elaborate at all on what "truth combines with falsehood" means.

Hence it being said to be a single phenomenon.

Ice and Fire aren't logical dualities; like seriously the scan literally stated they was viewed as single phenomenon cause that how those people view them, this is just idealism, i already rejected this in the same thread Ultima rejected

All in All, i disagree with this thread, it is just mostly re-posting of this thread, using slightly different argument, all the scans are still the same

 

[Voidnether]

The reason it qualifies is because it inherently exhibits attributes associated with monism, not because I am arbitrarily forcing it to fit that framework. While I do argue that it aligns with monism characteristics, the conclusion is based on the properties being demonstrated (as in “in-verse”) rather than the label or implication itself.

As established, the Shadow Fight universe lacks true dualities. This is further supported by statements describing it as non-dual, particularly from the perspective of Tenebris's race (which is directly tied to the Void), where negation itself does not meaningfully apply.

This perspective originates from the Void, which perceives all distinctions as “combined”, or more accurately, as fundamentally unified. However, this is not a simple “both” state as seen in many-valued logic. It also rejects the notion of “neither” in the sense of treating categories as meaningful in the first place (as in both categories, for instances, “past” and “future” doesn't really exist). Instead, distinctions do not exist at all on a fundamental level. They are considered one not because they are simultaneously both, but because there is no valid basis to differentiate them. Hence it being said to be a single phenomenon. This aligns with monistic principles, where no true distinctions or dualities exist in an absolute sense, rather than with systems that still rely on multiple logical states. So, Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 3) would be highly applicable here, as the verse does not inherently operate under standard many-valued logic. Alternatively, even if interpreted that way, the Void would already transcend it, existing in a “fifth state” beyond its own emanations, which themselves operate in a “fourth state” (both and neither simultaneously).

As for Acausality (Type 5), it also follows logically. There are no meaningful distinctions between “past” and “future”, and the only true state is the present. The Void perceives reality in this manner, which is why it does not “predicts” (as in seeing or knowing) future events. Instead, it speaks as though events have already occurred (states), consistent with the idea that all points in time exist simultaneously across all realities. Add to the fact that the Void is not bound by this kind of principle as it exist as the very source of it, so its nature is completely beyond this.

I discussed the Paraconsistent Physiology months ago and to this point I still see it as something that's just Type 2 instead of Type 3 attributed, you generally need better evidence since nothing remotely about this is close to Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3

I still think that's just a form of higher degree Acausality type 4 instead of it being Type 5, as I don't see anything that makes Shadow completely cut off from all causality systems (i.e uninteractable similar to Madoka)

Is there any evidence where NEP2 here is through them being neither Existence and Nonexistence altogether and being deeper than this? I feel like it's just NEP1 if not

 

[Udlmaster]

Which characters would scale to this and why?

It would have to be characters who can meaningfully affect the entirety of the Void. I'm not informed on this verse beyond what's presented in this thread so I'll have to the Knowledgeable members to detail.

Speaking to said members, I'd recommend making a Part 2 to this thread (if it passes successfully) to go over which characters scale to what and the reasons why.

@Udlmaster

What do you think about that?

Acausality type 5 seems fine. It might be type 4, but I might like to see arguments presented for it.

I don't think Plurality is accurate. The Tenebrous not using negations taken as information on the Nature of the Void would be Type 2 at most and Type 1 at the least.

This is because the Void would (on taking the statement as true) engage in a type of Positive Logic where it does not have a negation built in. This would be Type 1.

If we were to say ALL P is true, this would be a type of Trivialism-Positive Logic where the Truth value (duality) for everything would be True.

In both of these cases, these are dual-systems, not Plurality, they don't engage on a hidden 3rd option (neither) or 4th (either), just the primary two.

So I would say being fair and balanced it would be Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 1, possibly 2).

As for the Non-Existent Physiology, that would have to be something explored by the Verse's Knowledgeable members.


Those are my thoughts.

 

[Vietthai96]

About Acausality, it is Type 4 at best, Type 5 require you to be immutable and unchangeable due to completely transcend causality. The scans said thing happens simultaneously mean there is still changes happening, just everything happen at once

 

[Robo432343]

All in All, i disagree with this thread, it is just mostly re-posting of this thread, using slightly different argument, all the scans are still the same

also this thread

1-A Void upgrade for Shadow Fight (Need Ultima's input)

Hello, this thread focuses on the Primordial Void of Shadow fight, the starting point of creation. I'll try to provide as much context as possible. Aspatial and Atemporal part In Shadow Fight 2, Tenebris (the void's avatar) describes the void as the emptiness in which worlds are born...

vsbattles.com

 

[Udlmaster]

About Acausality, it is Type 4 at best, Type 5 require you to be immutable and unchangeable due to completely transcend causality. The scans said thing happens simultaneously mean there is still changes happening, just everything happen at once

Yeah, that's why I quickly amended my statement saying that I'd like to see argument for it since I gave it some thought that a Positive-logic world, causality could still happen in very strange ways.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

it isn't monism, by your logic, Big Bang is also Monism cause it is a singularity where everything were one and originated from

I don't see how the Void in this case points to the “Big Bang“ as you're implying. Maybe try a different argument?

Ultima rejected this in it another similar thread

You'ee a bit late on that, the thread you're referring to was incomplete, as it lacked the necessary context behind the arguments being made (for example, there are no context as to what “life being an illusion” actually means). This thread, on the other hand, already addresses those points in full.

So there isn't much for to counter here beyond saying “it’s not the same argument”. Frankly, the counter-argument from that thread doesn’t really apply in this context.

Ice and Fire aren't logical dualities; like seriously the scan literally stated they was viewed as single phenomenon cause that how those people view them, this is just idealism, i already rejected this in the same thread Ultima rejected

I’m aware that they're not, but given the context, they were clearly referring to dualities in terms of many-valued logic, especially since they brought up logical operators like “not” or negation as examples. This is the exact scenario where “case-by-case” applies.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Acausality type 5 seems fine. It might be type 4, but I might like to see arguments presented for it

Yeah, that's why I quickly amended my statement saying that I'd like to see argument for it since I gave it some thought that a Positive-logic world, causality could still happen in very strange ways.

Here:

As for Acausality (Type 5), it also follows logically. There are no meaningful distinctions between “past” and “future”, and the only true state is the present. The Void perceives reality in this manner, which is why it does not “predicts” (as in seeing or knowing) future events. Instead, it speaks as though events have already occurred (states), consistent with the idea that all points in time exist simultaneously across all realities. Add to the fact that the Void is not bound by this kind of principle as it exist as the very source of it, so its nature is completely beyond this.

It's kind of bits and pieces, but the idea is that there is no true sense of time across realities and because of that they exist simultaneously. The Void is not part of this principle obviously, as it is beyond it and unbounded (exist as the baseline or nothingness in which they can exist) by it as presented in the OP.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I discussed the Paraconsistent Physiology months ago and to this point I still see it as something that's just Type 2 instead of Type 3 attributed, you generally need better evidence since nothing remotely about this is close to Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3

I'm not going to say it for the second time so I'm just gonna quote it, isn't this already enough?

This perspective originates from the Void, which perceives all distinctions as “combined”, or more accurately, as fundamentally unified. However, this is not a simple “both” state as seen in many-valued logic. It also rejects the notion of “neither” in the sense of treating categories as meaningful in the first place (as in both categories, for instances, “past” and “future” doesn't really exist).

So, Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 3) would be highly applicable here, as the verse does not inherently operate under standard many-valued logic. Alternatively, even if interpreted that way, the Void would already transcend it, existing in a “fifth state” beyond its own emanations, which themselves operate in a “fourth state” (both and neither simultaneously).

I still think that's just a form of higher degree Acausality type 4 instead of it being Type 5, as I don't see anything that makes Shadow completely cut off from all causality systems (i.e uninteractable similar to Madoka)

Shadow isn't intended to get this in the first place, just the Void, Tenebris, and Architect.

Is there any evidence where NEP2 here is through them being neither Existence and Nonexistence altogether and being deeper than this? I feel like it's just NEP1 if not

Here:

At the same time, however, it is not bound by these manifestations. This is emphasized by the statement that the most accurate description of the Void’s “content” is “empty space”, or nothingness. Transcending the duality between “everything” and “nothing” (with Darkness itself representing absence), the Void functions as both the ground of being and something beyond all ontological determination.

 

[Voidnether]

Shadow isn't intended to get this in the first place, just the Void, Tenebris, and Architect.

Right, so like how would you tackle the Void, Tenebris and Architect. Like all of them is capable of being interacted "physically" by Shadow instead of using his hax? The implications of Shadow being capable of fighting them meant Shadow is capable of interacting physically with them here

Here:

Could you quote it? I checked the links and I don't see anything that supports what you've said, I just need evidence the Void is deeper than conventional nonexistence and it being neither Existence and Nonexistence altogether

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This is because the Void would (on taking the statement as true) engage in a type of Positive Logic where it does not have a negation built in. This would be Type 1.

If we were to say ALL P is true, this would be a type of Trivialism-Positive Logic where the Truth value (duality) for everything would be True.

In both of these cases, these are dual-systems, not Plurality, they don't engage on a hidden 3rd option (neither) or 4th (either), just the primary two.

The nature of the Void is that it does not perceive reality in terms of distinctions, but rather as a single, unified phenomenon. It does not understand which is true or which is false/copy, as those categories do not exist in any fundamental sense. Based on the earlier implication from the Calligrapher, this supports the idea that the Void perceives everything as sharing the same underlying nature.

This is not a case of “all parts being true” rather, there are no “parts” to begin with. Fire is not true, ice is not true, they are simply one, because the categories themselves do not meaningfully exist.

At the very least, this should be Type 2 considering it mentions about world (or reality) as a whole. Meaning it should be regarded with the account of General Dualities. And the very most, it would be Type 3.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Right, so like how would you tackle the Void, Tenebris and Architect. Like all of them is capable of being interacted "physically" by Shadow instead of using his hax? The implications of Shadow being capable of fighting them meant Shadow is capable of interacting physically with them here

Shadow's interaction with Tenebris can be explained through him beinh empowered by the Void and Architect's narrative control, as he is responsible for writing Shadow’s entire journey, something I have already addressed.

However, I also believe Shadow can reasonably be granted a higher tier. He is capable of outmatching Tenebris in combat and is explicitly empowered by the Void. Additionally, Architect's role further supports this, as he is responsible for writing Shadow's entire journey and shows no indication of ceasing that control. As such, Shadow's feats occur within a consistent framework, meaning that it can't be considered as anti-feats.

As for Architect himself, I have previously argued upon (you should check page two) that Shadow did not meaningfully “win” or remotely close against him. It is heavily implied that the entire encounter functions more as a staged play or narrative device meant to entertain the player, rather than a genuine instance of Shadow surpassing Architect.

Could you quote it? I checked the links and I don't see anything that supports what you've said, I just need evidence the Void is deeper than conventional nonexistence and it being neither Existence and Nonexistence altogether

There isn't an explicit statement that the Void is “deeper” than non-existence, but that inference can be drawn from the available evidence. The Void is best described as empty space, yet it still contains “something”, which already suggests a state beyond conventional nothingness. By comparison, Shadow (or Darkness, the counterpart to Light) is treated to be nothingness capable of erasing existence entirely. If the Void can still contain or encompass that, then it logically operates on a level beyond it.

As the massive doors groan open, a blinding white light erupts from the void, followed by a wave of sentient darkness that physically strips Kaginoko of his flesh and soul. His humanity is burned away in an instant, leaving behind only the silhouetted, two-dimensional entity known as Shadow. Standing amidst the ruins of his former self, Shadow looks back to see the spectral faces of his past—Carham, Sensei, and his lost friends—before turning his back on the world of men. He steps into the eternal darkness of the Gates, realizing that his journey was never about glory, but about becoming a living weapon capable of hunting every shadow that dwells within the void.

 

[Voidnether]

Shadow's interaction with Tenebris can be explained through him beinh empowered by the Void and Architect's narrative control, as he is responsible for writing Shadow’s entire journey, something I have already addressed.



As for Architect himself, I have previously argued upon (you should check page two) that Shadow did not meaningfully “win” or remotely close against him. It is heavily implied that the entire encounter functions more as a staged play or narrative device meant to entertain the player, rather than a genuine instance of Shadow surpassing Architect.



There isn't an explicit statement that the Void is “deeper” than non-existence, but that inference can be drawn from the available evidence. The Void is best described as empty space, yet it still contains “something”, which already suggests a state beyond conventional nothingness. By comparison, Shadow (or Darkness, the counterpart to Light) is treated to be nothingness capable of erasing existence entirely. If the Void can still contain or encompass that, then it logically operates on a level beyond it.

I don't think that's enough to justify Type 5 as that could just be something to support 1-A in which Shadow here is empowered by 1-A powersource to be able to fight them, regarding NEP, possibly NEP2 then ig