Dragon Ball: something about the infinite-sized universe and continuities

[StrymULTRA]

Introduction​

Hello ladies and gentleladies. I come here to bring in a major concern that always struck me from quite the time, but could never bring myself to do it for personal reasons until now.

Dragon Ball by itself is easily one of the most controversial, if not the most controversial verse here, and this thread will affect all the continuities, AKA the DBZ Movies, GT, the Super Manga and Anime, Daima and the Bandai Namco games. The topic in particular is a shitshow no matter how much you try to contain it, given that the threads are always manage to get over 12 pages long, sometimes even in less than 3 days:

• The original thread where the infinite universe argument was brought up
• The continuation
• The downgrade
• The attempt to make Dragon Ball Super specifically back to infinite

As you can see all of these threads are indeed super lenghty, are filled of dog pilings and circular back and forths, and are overall a major stress for all the staff members to even comment in, so I'll try to make this final and hopefully the last one about this issue.

This was a conclusion I've come to an end after discussing with several people, including @SomebodyData who gave me the permission to even make this thread.

Edit: After rethinking I've realized that CRTs get in Staff only when they become too much for normal discussion to happen. So y'all, please, behave.

NOTE: Do NOT try to bring in any kind of speed/ap scaling in the conversation, this discussion has to be only about the cosmological scale of Universe 7. This is indeed also trying to prevent sneak upgrades/downgrades, and these should be brought up in their own thread, to avoid making this more messier than it already is.

I'd also avoid trying to turn this in an attempt to separate continuities, I largely agree with what we're doing in that regard given that the idea of different canons as we westerners conceive just isn't a thing in any of the editors' heads and they even find such a notion laughable.

The major problem​

I think that everyone who is even remotely knowledgeable on Dragon Ball who also made some checks on the wiki pages is aware of something pretty damn alarming.

This is Zeno's profile:

This instead is Toei Buu's profile:

I think the difference is pretty damn alarming. A being who quite literally deleted the entire Hypertimeline containing everything in the Dragon Ball reality and is easily superior to every other god in the franchise is infinitely slower than a random demon who got slapped effortlessly by one of the gods who are explicitly beneath Zeno.

Now, I get that you all will say "hey hey hey it's a Buu from a whole other different continuity why does it matter", the issue lays in how all the continuities are taken to be in the exact same worldview, essentially making a composite setting where elements of a continuity are assumed to automatically exist in all the others unless it's specifically contradicted, as accepted in the cosmology page after this thread was applied to the verse.

And in fact, in my view the idea that a God who can destroy a literal 6D Hypertimeline is blitzed on a literal infinite degree from randoms who are 2 degrees of infinity weaker than him with the excuse of "different continuity" is genuinely asinine, especially given that this franchise is one that makes it clear that more power equals more speed in multiple instances.

I am aware that just using incredulity and vibes will bring me nowhere, so I'll address the actual root of the issue.

Analyzing what we have at hand​

Dragon Ball Super's main issue​

For some weird reason, the cosmology page links to a scan mentioning that there are infinite galaxies, and yet this does not apply to the DB Super characters despite the page also using elements from that series.

Because of this, I have decided to analyze myself the most incriminating piece of evidence that is the key reason for this weird separation, that being Bulma stating that they are at the edge of the universe, clearly saying that the physical universe they're in has a limit in size.

This is something that was first said in the anime in Episode 29:


The manga also mentions the exact same thing in Chapter 6:

Now, I think that the main arguments that I have seen against the usage of Bulma's statement are just silly excuses. I'll make a spoiler tab so that the thread won't be even longer than it already is:

Spoiler: Jaco and more

• Argument 1: Jaco later on contradicts Bulma and she stands corrected, making her statement unreliable, especially given that he's a patrolman who works around the universe unlike her.

I don't really believe that it's the case. I have gathered Jaco's statement in both the Anime and Manga, and he doesn't really correct her on the matter about the Earth being in the edge of the universe, he doesn't even mention that. All he does is pointing out at the absurdity of how Bulma believes she can just travel to the center of the universe with a simple spaceship, given the insane amount of distance that separates the Earth from there.

He also mentions that he only works in the Milky Way, a single galaxy out of 2 TRILLION (2'000'000'000'000) galaxies in just the observable universe alone, and Jaco also complained in going to Earth because it takes too long (in the manga scan I've linked above it mentions that he took 50 minutes). No wonder he's right, crossing such a distance with his spaceship would take millions of years at absolute least, Bulma had no idea what she was talking about because of the insane distance she'd have to cross without the assistance of deities, not about the position of the Earth in the universe.

Bulma being able to comprehend stuff like space-time and later building a time machine that can travel between 6D Hypertimelines is not really relevant to bring up in either favor or against the argument, Einstein through his studies on relativity and space-time has predicted multiple things like black holes that were proven right, but he still cannot comprehend the vastity of the universe in a literal way as human brains cannot quantify extremely large numbers beyond a vague "it's really big", just like we're aware of what infinity is and the mechanics around it, but we obviously cannot imagine a literal infinite amount of elements in our head, making such a point irrelevant to bring up for anything in this topic.

• Argument 2: Bulma could have been reffering to just the Observable Universe and not the full one.

This also is just nonsense, the entire point of the OU is that it's the portion of the universe that we can see from the Earth, our planet is at the center of it, and not at the edge.

Plus, this wouldn't really contradict Jaco's statement anyway, we'd need still a number of years at least 5 digits to cross multiple galaxies even with Jaco's spaceship, that's how even the Observable Universe is already insanely big.

• Argument 3: Why can't the Earth just be at the edge of infinite galaxies, then?

The entire point of infinity is that it does not have an edge. It can have indeed a center, as the set of integers contains both the positive and negative numbers, with 0 being in the middle, but it having an edge defeats the point of infinity as a whole.

• Argument 4: Why can't it be simply that infinity can have an edge? Many works of fiction do portray this idea possible, as infinite speed characters must reach the end of infinity in order to even qualify as such.

I am not a fan of saying that if a character crosses an infinite distance then it wasn't really infinite, that's silly. I am indeed aware that there are pieces of fiction that do wacky shit like this (like Superman straight up flying past the borders of infinity), but there the intent was clear given that's explicitly mentioned. Dragon Ball Super makes no real reference to an infinite universe (nor does any Dragon Ball media beyond guidebooks, but we'll get there later).

The "infinite" statements across the other Dragon Ball media​

Do I want to say that an infinite universe is impossible in Dragon Ball, given everything I have said above? Well... no. One can just bring up that Bulma's statement, while not proven wrong in-universe, is simply inconsistent.

Thankfully this blog contains all the evidence and sources I need, so skimming through it is easier for me:

An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives. (Daizenshuu 4)

The various Kaio govern the infinitely expansive universe. This is primarily determined by the compass points, while the Dai Kaio serves as general manager of the places governed by the Kaio, and beyond that the Kaioshin of the North, East, South, and West govern the universe. Ultimately, the Dai Kaioshin supervises the universe in its entirety. (Daizenshuu 4)

When it infinitely spreads, the illumination of the galaxy stretches for tens of thousands of light-years... Hundreds of millions of light-years... In the distant stars that even light cannot reach, there are countless unknown extraterrestrial beings and monsters beyond imagination, breathing. (Daizenshuu 4)

Not limited to the Earth, the stage of the big adventure of Son Goku and the others unfolds on various planets/stars of the Universe. "Earth" where Goku and others live belongs to "North Galaxy" in the DB world, It can be described as "4032-Green-877-Planet".
[...]
"This World" shows an endless expanse, you will find that the DB world holds a worldview with a tremendous scale beyond human understanding. (Daizenshuu 4)

On the other hand, the “galaxy” entry in the glossary section from page 49 of the same book instead seems to say there are infinite galaxies (again, from Chouzenshuu 4 but the Daizenshuu 7 original had the same wording). (Herms)

Not going to bother with things like GT saying that there are boundless galaxies, the downgrade thread made a pretty good job in refuting it in my view. What I do not agree with is it using the idea of "infinitely expanding" debunking a literal infinite size, as in fiction we do allow characters to exceed the baseline of tiers requiring infinite power (aka anything from High 3-A and above) while not reaching a whole other level of infinity and just restricting to a finite gap in powerscaling, and we allow places to be bigger than a 2-A structure while still being 2-A.

The physical universe should be the same size across all continuities for a true shared worldview​

The main problem is that all of these infinite statements come from guidebooks, aka secondary evidence, and we have no valid statement for an infinite universe in any episode of DBZ/GT, and a direct contradiction to it in Super.

There cannot be a real shared overview between continuities if the physical size difference between these worlds is infinite. An excuse can be that the main focus is just on the Earth on the adventures of Goku and his friends, but the problem is that the amount of contents in the universe is infinite in the interpretation that the universe is that size, given the multiple mentions of infinite galaxies that are overseen from the Kais, meaning that infinitely more events and beings happen there.

For an analogy, I'll take my favorite one when it comes to cosmological settings, that being pebbles. An finite universe would be like a finite chunk of pebbles, with the most important one being of an unique color and shape that is different from all the rest. An infinite universe on the other hand would have, yes, that same important pebble, but also have infinite many others, the chunks just cannot be said to be the same only because they share the same elements, when the total amount of elements they have is infinite in difference. Worlds can be said to be the same only if their scope in their totality is the same, arguing that a literal size difference on this degree is just a minor inconsistency only because the main focus is the same planet is just absurd.

You cannot have a cake and eat it too, you either have both works as infinite in size to maintain a real "same image" between works, or finite to accomodate the new mechanics of the overall DB world, no in-between. You cannot seriously think that the editors believe that the anime counterparts of Mid-Late Z characters would infinite blitz the overlords of the entire multiverse just because it's in a different timeline, not with how the idea of canon works there.

Staff vote tally and propositions​

Without wasting more words, I'll just cut to the chase. I'll give multiple options that can be chosen by the staff:

OPTION 1 - Bulma's statement is just inconsistent, and we just have to prioritize the higher amount of statements given from the guidebooks, making Universe 7 infinite in all continuities: 0

OPTION 2 - Bulma's statement retcons away all of these secondary guidebooks, so the Universe 7 is finite in all continuities: 0

OPTION 3 - Keep the sizes different for GT and Super idc: 2 (@Qawsedf234, @Damage3245)

​

 

[Deonment]

What I do not agree with is it using the idea of "infinitely expanding" debunking a literal infinite size, as in fiction we do allow characters to exceed the baseline of tiers requiring infinite power (aka anything from High 3-A and above) while not reaching a whole other level of infinity and just restricting to a finite gap in powerscaling, and we allow places to be bigger than a 2-A structure while still being 2-A.

Don't really care about the thread itself, but I keep seeing this misconception popping up here and there so I'll just touch on it here
The expansion of a universe doesn't debunk it being infinite or not. What is being expanded is the space between points, as can be measurably seen with galaxies "travelling away" from us, but also happens on micro scales, such as between the sun and earth, or two atoms, and only stays bound together due to gravity or other forces.
So just because it is expanding doesn't stop it from being infinite, as the definition of expansion (in relation to the universe) does not actually change it's total size, it just makes everything in it further apart.
(Now this doesn't stop expansion from being used to shoot down an infinite universe if the expansion itself is literally just something growing larger, but I felt the need to point this out)

 

[Qawsedf234]

NOTE: Do NOT try to bring in any kind of speed/ap scaling in the conversation, this discussion has to be only about the cosmological scale of Universe 7. This is indeed also trying to prevent sneak upgrades/downgrades

I mean, this thread is directly tied to AP/Speed statistics. To argue otherwise is ignoring current scaling.

But for the thread different Canons are different Canons in my view. They should've never been cross scaled in the first place honestly and I'm in favor of option 3.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, this thread is directly tied to AP/Speed statistics. To argue otherwise is ignoring current scaling.

I'd try to avoid putting in stuff like "why is the universe infinite if Goku can destroy it while still fighting in 48 minutes" and stuff ngl.

But for the thread different Canons are different Canons in my view. They should've never been cross scaled in the first place honestly and I'm in favor of option 3.

This would require a big discussion about completely separating the continuities and undoing the CRT I've linked above.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would require a big discussion about completely separating the continuities and undoing the CRT I've linked above.

Fine with me. You listed as an option so you acknowledged that its a valid end.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fine with me. You listed as an option so you acknowledged that its a valid end.

That yea, I have never said that you cannot argue that lol, given that the point of the thread is arguing that given that the continuities are currently treated as being in the same world in a structural meaning, then the sizes should be the same.

Regardless, the CRT in question is this so you don't have to search it.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with Qaws.

 

[StrymULTRA]

After discussing with some of the DB supporters off-site, they asked me to make this thread to get closed as they're prepping a better one with other arguments.

So I will do if a better thing is behind the works. My bad y'all.

 

[Qawsedf234]

After discussing with some of the DB supporters off-site, they asked me to make this thread to get closed as they're prepping a better one with other arguments.

So I will do if a better thing is behind the works. My bad y'all.

Alright then. Though saying you did this with bad effort is incorrect, then thread itself is overall very well structured.