Team Fortress 2 - (tier 8/7/6 and Sol/ftl weapons speed upgrade and some other minor stuff) - 1 vote needed

[Rex_Eckles]

You simply don't get vaporized by something you scale with, something has to overpower you by orders of magnitude for such an event to occur.

1) You do understand that the energy to vaporize the robots just doesn’t become lethal until the body is worn down via accumulated damage, right?

2) What about the giant monster vaporization calc, or the Black Box vaporization? There’s no contradiction in either.

And people will argue with you that there's at least precedent for this, where someone looking to contradict you would only need to point towards Sniper dying to a couple of bullets.

Don’t conflate piercing damage with blunt force or thermal energy.

but you cannot make that case here, it's purely isolated within the gameplay.

Soldier can rocket jump with the Cow Mangler, so you actually can.

 

[IDK3465]

To compromise, how about we just divide the current values by the number of hits required to kill one of the robots? Wouldn't that remove all the scaling issues we currently have with them scaling to their own destruction?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

To compromise, how about we just divide the current values by the number of hits required to kill one of the robots? Wouldn't that remove all the scaling issues we currently have with them scaling to their own destruction?

I’m fine with that.

 

[Hixkaryana]

To compromise, how about we just divide the current values by the number of hits required to kill one of the robots? Wouldn't that remove all the scaling issues we currently have with them scaling to their own destruction?

Don't know anything about TF2 but this seems logical. It's actually quite convenient to know how many shots it takes to kill specific mercenaries, as it sets the cap for their durability and therefore their AP.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

To compromise, how about we just divide the current values by the number of hits required to kill one of the robots? Wouldn't that remove all the scaling issues we currently have with them scaling to their own destruction?

absolutly agree.

I'll make another section with the shoots needed.

Considering that this feat only scales to the robot war mercs i'll make an end with only upgrades and considering that we would just need to change the vaporization of heavy as the bots up to soldier get one tapped.

Also a big misconception because lorewise they upscale them by a lot as most oc their equipment is shown to one shot them in both comics, so it doesn't create any circular scaling anyway.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

i'll give some scans in a while because I'm at the bus stop rn

 

[LandonTheGuy]

there are 2 revisions in this ctr

The bread monster shakes the RED base calc - the calc had a wrong timeframe to find the distance in the epicenter
- Scout dodges bullets - the calc assumes that scout catches the bullest while it clearly dodges them

 

[LandonTheGuy]

To compromise, how about we just divide the current values by the number of hits required to kill one of the robots? Wouldn't that remove all the scaling issues we currently have with them scaling to their own destruction?

Ok, i did some stuff:

1. changed the values for the vaporization of robots calc, now the highest value is 65 Tons of tnt, so i don't think it even comes as a problem of "it's a supposetly stronger weapon" when it's not.
2. removed the saxton punch!!! value and just put way higher as there isn't nothing written that says that it's 3 times stronger.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

You're just reiterating your position and justifying your position with HP mechanics, it's not actually addressing the facts of the matter.

The facts aside, what do you think occurs when you start to scale everything with each other? You then have to come to terms with the fact that a great majority of the weapons don't vaporize yet you want us to believe they are all equally as effective, which cannot be the case at all unless vaporization now is like how it is in gameplay - completely cosmetic. This means that it is entirely nothing so no scaling should exist at all.

Frankly it's ridiculous, you can't pick and choose here.

It has come to my attention that the feats weren't divided by the hits it takes for the mercs to die to them so they are now divided, now the highest value is of 65 tons of tnt and considering the value that the mercs will scale will be 67.5 tons of tnt we shouldn't have problems to it now, as it would be kinda useless arguing about a value that is mostly supportive.

So... any other concerns for the scaling or the rest is good?

 

[Abstractions]

It has come to my attention that the feats weren't divided by the hits it takes for the mercs to die to them so they are now divided, now the highest value is of 65 tons of tnt and considering the value that the mercs will scale will be 67.5 tons of tnt we shouldn't have problems to it now, as it would be kinda useless arguing about a value that is mostly supportive.

Dividing the values doesn't actually address the fundamental problem with trying to scale someone to something that vaporizes them, I'm going to disagree with doing so.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Dividing the values doesn't actually address the fundamental problem with trying to scale someone to something that vaporizes them, I'm going to disagree with doing so.

What about an “At most” indicator? I’ve seen that be put to use whenever an attack also kills the character that delivers it.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Dividing the values doesn't actually address the fundamental problem with trying to scale someone to something that vaporizes them, I'm going to disagree with doing so.

This is actually absurd. By your logic, scaling anyone to any weapon or attack is fundamentally problematic because they can eventually kill someone. By your logic, rocket jumping is not valid when we know it is.

People can die to enough punching, does this mean no punch can be scaled to durability?

 

[Hixkaryana]

I’m honestly confused here..is it that you guys want to scale the weapons that are being used to the characters’ physicalities? Because if so, then yes that would be incorrect. Otherwise giving them a tier “[…] with Firearms” is fine.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Outside of Sniper Rifles, which 100% upscale, or Rocket Launchers which downscale from Soldier, yeah most people scale to their guns.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Outside of Sniper Rifles, which 100% upscale, or Rocket Launchers which downscale from Soldier, yeah most people scale to their guns.

Indeed, but it’s underlined in their AP section that they possess that tier via weaponry.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Indeed, but it’s underlined in their AP section that they possess that tier via weaponry.

Some do. Some do not. For instance, Medic could injure TFC Heavy with his melee weaponry, and has to be able to cut people open with that weaponry as a medic, so he scales basically everywhere.

Anyways, just use the Black Box for scaling if it's that problematic, or keep it to High 8-C, likely 8-B or something, it's that simple.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Some do. Some do not. For instance, Medic could injure TFC Heavy with his melee weaponry, and has to be able to cut people open with that weaponry as a medic, so he scales basically everywhere.

Anyways, just use the Black Box for scaling if it's that problematic, or keep it to High 8-C, likely 8-B or something, it's that simple.

So you mean to tell me Medic’s scalpel is as powerful as a mass destruction weapon..fascinating

 

[LandonTheGuy]

So you mean to tell me Medic’s scalpel is as powerful as a mass destruction weapon..fascinating

apparently

It's not like they downscale that weapon in any capacity, avery merc is somewhat comparable to each other at the end of the day.

 

[DaReaperMan]

So you mean to tell me Medic’s scalpel is as powerful as a mass destruction weapon..fascinating

Yes. And part of it is his physical strength, so he also scales there.

 

[Hixkaryana]

apparently

It's not like they downscale that weapon in any capacity, avery merc is somewhat comparable to each other at the end of the day.

Now I’m just worried about ideas of circular scaling. But I’ll let you experts dwell in these specificities.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Some do. Some do not. For instance, Medic could injure TFC Heavy with his melee weaponry, and has to be able to cut people open with that weaponry as a medic, so he scales basically everywhere.

Anyways, just use the Black Box for scaling if it's that problematic, or keep it to High 8-C, likely 8-B or something, it's that simple.

Regardless reaperman is right, this discussion is pretty useless when we got already values that get in the 8-B ranges for the mercs.

I'm fine with putting the vaporization weapons scale above the mercs (altho i have to specify that i still see flaws in the method you propose, but at the end of the day you are a mod and i'm a nobody +this would get dragged for 5 pages of trying to trow the same arguments at each other), but i still want to use these weapons as supportive that the mercs have equipment that reaches 8-B+

Dividing the values doesn't actually address the fundamental problem with trying to scale someone to something that vaporizes them, I'm going to disagree with doing so.

of course if you do not mind

 

[DaReaperMan]

Now I’m just worried about ideas of circular scaling. But I’ll let you experts dwell in these specificities.

Well, there is some circular scaling going on right now, but that's kind of easy to deal with(Just make Soldier's rockets downscale from him and don't scale everyone to him in LS), Medic is among those who are featless for the most part, we just know he can physically fight fools since BLU Medic tried with Spy.(And technically BLU Medic is the one in MVM IIRC)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Now I’m just worried about ideas of circular scaling. But I’ll let you experts dwell in these specificities.

Honestly there's more against them not scaling than otherwise, but don't worry it should be fine as it is rn.

 

[Hixkaryana]

Alright then, let’s see what Abstractions thinks.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Dividing the values doesn't actually address the fundamental problem with trying to scale someone to something that vaporizes them, I'm going to disagree with doing so.

I also have to clarify that by that i meant, that they scale regardless to the cowmangler values, so it's just comes as supportive in general for only the weapons

 

[Abstractions]

This is actually absurd. By your logic, scaling anyone to any weapon or attack is fundamentally problematic because they can eventually kill someone. By your logic, rocket jumping is not valid when we know it is.

I cannot possibly fathom how this is the conclusion you can come to when the circumstances we are disputing involve complete annihilation, this isn't a matter of breaking someone's skull over time, what you're attempting to justify is scaling someone to something that completely vaporizes them. Are they vaporizing themselves when they punch robots? Do you not realize how completely ridiculous this is?

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I don't think you can scale to something that just vaporizes you, it's like if we said humans are "At most 9-A" because that's how much it takes to vaporize us.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Yah I don't think you can scale to something that just vaporizes you, it's like if we said humans are "At most 9-A" because that's how much it takes to vaporize us.

It takes multiple shots to vaporize them, we’re proposing them scaling to individual shots, which do not vaporize them. It’s the same as taking 20 punches to break a wall, the wall scales to each individual punch, but not accumulated damage.

 

[Armorchompy]

Wait, they're scaling to attacks that eventually vaporize them? I thought it was something different. That's... that's very questionable I think.

(To clarify, the issue isn't the attacks kill them, the issue is that to obliterate a body you need AP much higher than its durability, like thousands of times. It's circular scaling to say they end up scaling back to that value - dividing it a few times doesn't really matter, it's not like HP is a real canonical thing where your body just stops having durability past a certain damage threshold)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

(To clarify, the issue isn't the attacks kill them, the issue is that to obliterate a body you need AP much higher than its durability, like thousands of times. It's circular scaling to say they end up scaling back to that value)

I'm ok if we are doing vaporization doesn't "physically scale" this but we need to clarify something.

The Robot that the mercenaries are doing the feats on scale below them, if the problem still stands then i can't say anything else.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Wait, they're scaling to attacks that eventually vaporize them? I thought it was something different. That's... that's very questionable I think.

(To clarify, the issue isn't the attacks kill them, the issue is that to obliterate a body you need AP much higher than its durability, like thousands of times. It's circular scaling to say they end up scaling back to that value - dividing it a few times doesn't really matter, it's not like HP is a real canonical thing where your body just stops having durability past a certain damage threshold)

Well, technically, it’s the robots that are vaporized, not the mercs.

Aside from that, any thoughts on the tank vaporization?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Aside from that, any thoughts on the tank vaporization?

I don't think there should be any problem as the Black Box (weapon that does the feat) doesn't vaporize the mercs, so we don't really run into the same problem

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm ok if we are doing vaporization doesn't "physically scale" this but we need to clarify something.

The Robot that the mercenaries are doing the feats on scale below them, if the problem still stands then i can't say anything else.

It's a gameplay feat and it affects the mercs just as much as the robots, no? Weird to interpret it as "the mercs are canonically tanking it while the robots are canonically getting one-shot"

 

[LandonTheGuy]

It's a gameplay feat and it affects the mercs just as much as the robots, no? Weird to interpret it as "the mercs are canonically tanking it while the robots are canonically getting one-shot"

The Robots are weaker than the mercs themself due of them having upgrades that multiply their stats by some degree.

I wouldn't say that the mercs straight up no sell the hit, but they take it way better than the robots themself.

If it could help Rex case the feat is supported by the fact that Soldier uses all his rocket launcher to rocket jump, so it's not strictly an only gameplay feat.

So its basically the mercs shooting a weaker enemy than themself.

 

[Abstractions]

I don't think there should be any problem as the Black Box (weapon that does the feat) doesn't vaporize the mercs, so we don't really run into the same problem

To be clear, I don't even know what this supposed Black Box feat is - all it's describing is that it does in fact blow up tanks, but none of this entails complete and total destruction:

"Hmm? "Where are the tanks?", I hear you cry? Gentlemen, I'll have you know I blasted each and every one of those overweight metal sonsofbitches back to their mothers!"

He's just describing the fact he's destroyed them here, but not to what extent.

"If you're lucky enough to sport the upper body strength to actually carry this monster, you can guarantee, after firing this half-a-ton hellraiser, it will be the only thing left that's not a smouldering pile of ash."

And here it's non-specific as to what he's referring to, or if the quote in question is designed to be super literal, All he could mean with this is that he is indeed blowing things up to a large degree. This could be anywhere from where they are currently rated to even less.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

To be clear, I don't even know what this supposed Black Box feat is - all it's describing is that it does in fact blow up tanks, but none of this entails complete and total destruction:

"Hmm? "Where are the tanks?", I hear you cry? Gentlemen, I'll have you know I blasted each and every one of those overweight metal sonsofbitches back to their mothers!"

He's just describing the fact he's destroyed them here, but not to what extent.

"If you're lucky enough to sport the upper body strength to actually carry this monster, you can guarantee, after firing this half-a-ton hellraiser, it will be the only thing left that's not a smouldering pile of ash."

And here it's non-specific as to what he's referring to, or if the quote in question is designed to be super literal, All he could mean with this is that he is indeed blowing things up to a large degree. This could be anywhere from where they are currently rated to even less.

It's called "the tank buster set" witch means that with those sets of weapons are used to do that.

There's no room for any other interpretation considering i doubt the burp would imply that he used any other kind of weapon exept the Black Box itself, as that would defeat the purpuse of the burp entierly.

Hell, soldier is literally standing with the weapon in the initial phrase, there's no way he would just take something else to do the job and then take the black box

 

[Abstractions]

It's called "the tank buster set" witch means that with those sets of weapons are used to do that.

Yes, because he sent the tanks back to their mothers.

There's no room for any other interpretation considering i doubt the burp would imply that he used any other kind of weapon exept the Black Box itself

That's not what I was getting at, just that in this part of the blurb it's either non-specific or not literal in his phrasing. It's probably why what was only initially applied was a reference to reducing a person to char, which was 9-A.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Yes, because he sent the tanks back to their mothers.

I think he means that the label means the opponents in mind for reducing to ash are tanks, if that’s what the launcher is designed to destroy.

 

[Monstermadman]

I think the vaporization itself when killing the mercs is more or less for the "wow" factor because we have them tanking several hits beforehand. If the weapons that vaporize them after several shots truly had an output that much higher than the Mercs durability, then why the heck aren't they dead after the first two shots?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

That's not what I was getting at, just that in this part of the blurb it's either non-specific or not literal in his phrasing. It's probably why what was only initially applied was a reference to reducing a person to char, which was 9-A.

It was 9-A because this wasn't even considered, and i doubt that he would have even bothered to do that considering that tf2 was struggling to get back to 9-A already.

Actually why would a weapon be in the "tank buster set" if it can't do jackshit against tanks like it says?