Team Fortress 2 Upgrade and revision CTR (Tier 8/7 Upgrades and FTL speed)

[LandonTheGuy]

Mann...Team Fortstress 2 had an immaculate run for what it's worth... also big shout out to my boy @Rex_Eckles, i apprishiated your help cuh.

Now that we have all sorted out, we can start our CTR.

Additions
ATTACK POTENCY/DURABILITY

Tier 8
-The bread monster shakes the RED's base - 2.77 Tons of tnt (Large Building level) (EVALUATED)
-Vaporization of a kaiju - 14.55 Tons of tnt (City Block level) (EVALUATED)
-Aliens melt the starue of liberty - 42,4424 Tons of tnt (City clock level)
-Black Box vaporizes tanks - 67.5 Tons of tnt (City Block level+)
-Cow mangler inverse square law - 38 tons of tnt to 80,88 tons of tnt (city block level up to city block level+) (EVALUATED)
-Cow mangler charged shot - 323 tons of tnt to 970 Tons of tnt (Multi city blocks up to Multi city blocks+) (EVALUATED)

Tier 7
-Saxton causes an eruption as the new CEO of hell - 5.22034 Kilotons (Small Town level+) (EVALUATED)
-The aliens pulverize the pyramids - 776.562 teratons of TNT (Large Country)
-Subatomic disintegration (lesser volumes) - 162.6 Kilotons to 99.33 megatons (Large town level up to City Level+) (EVALUATED)
-Subatomic disintegration (bigger volumes) - 178.43 Kilotons to 163.5128327 megatons (Large town level up to Mountain level) (EVALUATED)
-Saxton hale blows up the moon (non canon to the main continuity) - 607,33 Teratons of tnt (Large Country) (EVALUATED)
-All the nukes in the world can move the moon - 776.562 teratons of TNT (Large Country)

SPEED
-Scout dodges bullets - Mach 15.76 (Hypersonic+) (EVALUATED)
-Cowmangler 5000 speed - 749.481.145 m/s or 2.5 c (FTL) (EVALUATED)
-Scout dodges the cowmangler - 5.369.497.060,25 m/s or 17,91 C, (FTL+) (EVALUATED)

LIFTING STRENGHT
-Soldier jumps with a shit ton of ghear on him - 1.67 up to 3.35 Metric Tons (Class 5) (EVALUATED)



Saxton hale blows up the moon explaination:
For how much i would like to scale this to hale, it appears that the comic is not canon to the main tf2 continuity so the calc won't scale to no one in the verse (exept the iblowupthemoon if it ever gets a profile).

However this still remains a TF2 related feat and other verses like Baki have a space dedicated to non canon feats, so i see no problem on adding this feat with a specification of it's non-canonicity.


Scout dodges bullets
The current calc assumes scout catches those bullets altho it clearly says "miss" (also the calc is quiete old and is offsite)



Scaling:

• Gravel war mercs :

1. Attack Potency: 2.77 Tons of tnt (Large Building Level), possibly 67.5 Tons of tnt (City Block level+), 178.43 Kilotons with Sub-Atomization weapons
2. Speed: Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed, 1 c (Sol) with laser weapons, 2.5 c (FTL) with Mannpower upgrades.
3. Lifting Strenght: At least 1.67 Metric tons (Class 5).

• Robot War mercs :

1. Attack Potency: At least 2.77 tons of tnt (Large Building Level) (Stronger than before), possibly 80.88 tons of tnt (city block level+), at least 5.76 tons of tnt (Large Building Level) with upgrades possibly 161,2 tons of tnt (Multi city block level), 163,5128327 Megatons (Mountain Level) with sub-atomization weapons, 327,0256654 (Mountain level) with upgrades.
2. Speed: At least Mach 3.85 combat reaction speed, Mach 5.39 combat reaction speed with Upgrades, 1 c (Sol) with laser weapons, 1.8 c (FTL).
3. Lifting Strenght: At least 3.35 Metric tons (Class 5).

• Australium chase mercs :

1. Attack Potency: At least 5.76 tons of tnt (Large Building level) possibly 161.2 tons of tnt (Multi city block level), 327,0256654 Megatons (Mountain level) only to heavy due of being able to contend to Meggie and survive a beating from TFC heavy that should be comparable to the australians.
2. Speed: At least Mach 5.39 combat reaction speed.
3. Lifting Strenght: At least 3.35 Metric tons (Class 5).

• God tier of the verse (Saxton's section basically):

1. Attack Potency: 776,562 teratons of TNT (Large Country) and as a cherry on the top of the cake 2.329 Petatons (Continental Level) with Saxton Punch! for saxton (As this one deals a crit damage, so we give him the 3 times multiplier too).
2. Speed: At least Mach 5.39 combat reaction speed.
3. Lifting Strenght: At least 20,008.309214 Metric Tons.

REVISIONS/SMALLER ADDITIONS THAT DON'T IMPACT THE VERSE MUCH ON THE BASE SCALING

BREAD MONSTER CALC REVISION
Correcting the timeframe from 60s to 40s on The Bread monster shakes the RED's base calc.


TF2 COSMOLOGY
The tf2 universe should fall into the Low-Multiversal ranges for it's cosmology as Engeneer himself implies that there are multiple other universes (aka dr.grordborts in the case shown), with other dimension such as Hell, Heaven, the Underworld and the dimensions we see tru Hell train.


REMOVING THE HALE SCALING TO THE MERCS
Hale has shown the capability of outputting way above anything that the mercs can give, as in jungle inferno he Low-Diffs a juiced up version of the yeti who had this statementin about 30 seconds, while the mercs weren't even capable of injuring it in any way.

In conclusion, the current hale scaling comes as an outlier on a verse prospective.

(Little sidenote, vsh regardless still implies that hale won that battle because is still alive and well as seen in the comics.)


REMOVING THE 5-C VALUE FROM SAXTON HALE
The comic has been deemed non canon.


GIVING SCOUT 5-B ENVIORMENTAL DESTRUCTION
It looks like God has no problem on blowing up the planet for Scout.


SAXTON HALE INTELIGENCE REVISION
I've noticed that Saxton Hale inteligence is rated as "A bit Below Average", i do admit myself that Hale is not the most situationally aware person ever, BUT i do not feel like that should impact his inteligence rating this much as we got other characters like Phenomaman who are rated as average inteligence too altho this one could be described to be a little detached by reality as much as Hale is.

Hale skills/IQ feats fall on these:

• Claimed to have invented the "Jar based karate" in seconds.
• In the same paper we find out that Hale should is capable of teaching others drunken boxing (whitch is a real fighting style) +other 4 fighting styles that don't really exist in real life, but still worth noting.
• Altho he needs the help Bidwell and Reddy, Saxton is still capable of running Mann.co whitch made him sixth richest man in America and one of the best weapon seller as he literally sells weapons to trilionares and elite mercenaries.
• Australians have always been in universe Genius level of inteligence (as the administrator herself says about them) thanks to the propreties of Australium.

With the last point i think i think to clarify that Hale is no genius, but considering the overall points given, above average human as a rating doesn't look too bad.


REMOVAL OF COMBAT IQ RATING
Apparently outdated and should not be there

 

[LandonTheGuy]

@Diamond_Drone @Rex_Eckles @DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt @LegendariumOfLies @Plants_vs_zombies_fan101


Supporting and somewhat supporting fans of the greatest mental asylum made a game.... ASSEMBLE! please....

(I know we discussed already but hey we put some more stuff here and there idk)

 

[Thelastmlg]

tbh i only have issues with 2 things probably won't impact much

the cow mangler's charged shot being 4x to 12x as powerful as a normal one because it uses all the ammo, when in-game they only deal minicrits, like yeah you could chalk it up to balance but using one thing of the game while ignoring the other feels like cherry picking, and it wouldn't make sense scaling wise because classes can survive direct shoots from it (even if light ones die shortly after by the afterburn) while individual shoots still cause huge damage

i also find it funny that it ignores the weapon having a damage upgrade to double the result

and the ball o lightning has a big issue unaddressed, that the lightning is contained inside of the ball like a tesla coil, like, why are we assuming the ball is moving as fast as the lightning contained inside of it, it kinda feels like scaling a grenade's thrown speed to the explosion it can cause you know?

but i agree with the rest of the upgrades regardless

 

[AmonInChains]

-Heavy stops a train (conservative end) - 6.46 tons of tnt (Large building level) (EVALUATED)

Since this short was created by the community it's typically dismissed as not canon/official. However while it started as a mere passion project, McVee, the short's creator, was invited to Valve Headquarters a week after releasing the short's trailer, with the proposal of making the short official. End of the Line got its own major update for the game and the official TF2 website uses/advertises the short on it, there's weapons and cosmetics and taunts added specifically from the short. With all this in mind the short is official and should absolutely be usable.

This is not enough to fit in canon ngl.
At this point, the use of verse in fan-created material should be thoroughly reviewed.

-Scout moves the fake Ayer's Rock (conservative end) - 389 Tons of tnt (Multi city clock level) (EVALUATED)

Why did you put this as evaluated? There's not a single CGM comment in the blog.

SPEED

-Scout dodging the Pomson - 0.15 cc (Sub-Relativistic)

Ok i think i need to specify that i'm not implying with this calc that other projectiles go at the speed of the pomson , i'm using an in game video to demonstrate that is the bare minimum distance the mercs need to dodge the projectile.

The problem is not that one, dog. We had a whole thread talking about this.
The projectile speed in-game is inconsistent with actual values. 90 mph projectiles are far faster than the Pomson, therefore, it's not reliable at all. Pomson in-game is SLOW, like, one of the slowest projectiles in the game.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

This is not enough to fit in canon ngl.
At this point, the use of verse in fan-created material should be thoroughly reviewed.

I see your point, but End Of The Line was still one of TF2 major updates and there is stuff that references it in game.

Why did you put this as evaluated? There's not a single CGM comment in the blog.

Mb used the previus interation of the calc, then remove it to change the volume of the Ayers Rock and forgot to remove the evaluation stamp.

The problem is not that one, dog. We had a whole thread talking about this.
The projectile speed in-game is inconsistent with actual values. 90 mph projectiles are far faster than the Pomson, therefore, it's not reliable at all. Pomson in-game is SLOW, like, one of the slowest projectiles in the game.

I also got a little more argumentation under the calc in case that have been the case, if u intrested.

tbh i only have issues with 2 things probably won't impact much

the cow mangler's charged shot being 4x to 12x as powerful as a normal one because it uses all the ammo, when in-game they only deal minicrits, like yeah you could chalk it up to balance but using one thing of the game while ignoring the other feels like cherry picking, and it wouldn't make sense scaling wise because classes can survive direct shoots from it (even if light ones die shortly after by the afterburn) while individual shoots still cause huge damage

Drite told me about the fact that it was a meh argument but he never said it wasn't that... good? reliable? idk

If u find it not so good i got no problem on removing it, just let me know how ya feel.

i also find it funny that it ignores the weapon having a damage upgrade to double the result

I mean, the feat would only scale to the mercs with mvm upgrades regardless (or we could find the ap by removing the Damage multiplier for the base MVM mercs)

and the ball o lightning has a big issue unaddressed, that the lightning is contained inside of the ball like a tesla coil, like, why are we assuming the ball is moving as fast as the lightning contained inside of it, it kinda feels like scaling a grenade's thrown speed to the explosion it can cause you know?

Why shouldn't we assume that's lightning too? I mean yeah, if the ball was something of artificial nature i would totally get your point, but this is magic based so could just say that's elecricity too.

As i assumed that was some sort of rapresentaion of the electromagnetic field of the lightning itself (as the spell is referred as ball of lightning and nothing suggests that isn't part of said ball).

but i agree with the rest of the upgrades regardless

thanks for the imput

 

[AmonInChains]

I see your point, but End Of The Line was still one of TF2 major updates

I don't disagree with this, my point is that the calc is currently using a fan animation on it.

I also got a little more argumentation under the calc in case that have been the case, if u intrested.

Hasn't hammer unit scaling deemed unreliable due of having different in game speeds?

(altho here we ain't talking about straight up moviment speed or other projectiles involved)

If you mean this, yeah. For good or for bad, that shit is quite inconsistent and deserves his own CRT to be decided if nuke it or use it at all.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I don't disagree with this, my point is that the calc is currently using a fan animation on it.

If this could make u feel a little better, Valve does use the animation in one of their official sites for the update

If you mean this, yeah. For good or for bad, that shit is quite inconsistent and deserves his own CRT to be decided if nuke it or use it at all.

I do agree and disagree at the same time.

At the end of the day i can make it work it without using hu/in game metrics (ignoring the calc) so i think i can make this work for TF2 in this CTR (Hopefully).


In the other hand in other games this bullshit has been going on for years (HERM HERM OVERWATCH HERM HERM) and i did not fix it myself cuz i ain't even a fan of the game (or if i tried to run it in my pc, shi would fry)



By the way, i meant this part of the thread not that, idk what do u think about this argument?

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon, but these weapons are from the same sci-fi universe (where it's never implied that the Cow mangler 5000 is a slower projectile than the Pomson).

 

[AmonInChains]

If this could make u feel a little better, Valve does use the animation in one of their official sites for the update

Yeah, and it explictly says "A community-made movie".

In the other hand in other games this bullshit has been going on for years (HERM HERM OVERWATCH HERM HERM) and i did not fix it myself cuz i ain't even a fan of the game (or if i tried to run it in my pc, shi would fry)

Ogey guys this is like 3rd time that you bring Overwatch to me. Idk how that works because it's a GOONERS game. I've never touched it and I don't have any interest. If you want to downgrade it, do it, and if it's similar to this case, probably is wrong and should be nuked too.

By the way, i meant this part of the thread not that, idk what do u think about this argument?

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon, but these weapons are from the same sci-fi universe (where it's never implied that the Cow mangler 5000 is a slower projectile than the Pomson).

I don't understand what you're arguing here tbh it might be because of your English or mine. Are you referring to scaling it by intercepting it mid-attack? If so, it's the same problem as with the Pomson.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The projectile speed in-game is inconsistent with actual values. 90 mph projectiles are far faster than the Pomson, therefore, it's not reliable at all. Pomson in-game is SLOW, like, one of the slowest projectiles in the game.

I mean, by that logic, why bother trying to calculate any of the mercs dodging any of the projectiles? If we're not suddenly not allowed to calculate projectile dodging because other projectiles look faster, then every single video game verse is gonna get their speed nuked.

 

[AmonInChains]

I mean, by that logic, why bother trying to calculate any of the mercs dodging any of the projectiles? If we're not suddenly not allowed to calculate projectile dodging because other projectiles look faster, then every single video game verse is gonna get their speed nuked.

As long as there is consistency, it shouldn’t be a problem. The Pomson doesn’t demonstrate this; compared to the different weapons that have a given speed in the verse, it’s one of the projectiles. It’s not even a small difference: it’s almost three times slower.
Otherwise, we’re just cherry-picking to choose the highest values when we have clear inconsistencies.

There are really only two options:
1) We consider the hammer unit scaling values, which implies that the Pomson is slower than the Wrap Assassin or the Sandman and therefore, there is a clear cap that it is below 90mph/Mach 1.
2) We completely disregard them given the inconsistencies in speed within the game. The Pomson scales to SoL (if it gets accepted) since it has no in-game cap, although this would imply that no one scales remotely except Scout with BONK.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

2) We completely disregard them given the inconsistencies in speed within the game. The Pomson scales to SoL (if it gets accepted) since it has no in-game cap, although this would imply that no one scales remotely except Scout with BONK.

If the mercs can potentially dodge all the non-hitscan projectiles, the only inconsistency would be the bullets being faster than everything else.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Yeah, and it explictly says "A community-made movie".

That's what is it at it's core.

I ain't gonna hold ya and say anything else cuz i know for a fact we will go around the same 2 arguments again and again for hours without finding a solution, so let's see what the mods say.

Ogey guys this is like 3rd time that you bring Overwatch to me. Idk how that works because it's a GOONERS game. I've never touched it and I don't have any interest. If you want to downgrade it, do it, and if it's similar to this case, probably is wrong and should be nuked too.

Ok first of all chill, second i've been here on vsbw for a cupple of months and i found out yesterday about that being a thing.

Not gonna add anything else.

I don't understand what you're arguing here tbh it might be because of your English or mine. Are you referring to scaling it by intercepting it mid-attack? If so, it's the same problem as with the Pomson.

The reason we give the mercs in the first place the speed rating of projectiles in general it's mostly because Pyro can parry these with a mechanic called "air blast".

My point is, knowing this projectile can be parried by Pyro, and said projectile should be similar enough to the Pomson (due of reasons i said) then they should scale to that.

 

[AmonInChains]

The reason we give the mercs in the first place the speed rating of projectiles in general it's mostly because Pyro can parry these with a mechanic called "air blast".

My point is, knowing this projectile can be parried by Pyro, and said projectile should be similar enough to the Pomson (due of reasons i said) then they should scale to that.

That should meet the SoL criteria. Just saying "It was created by the same Sci-fi universe" isn't enough. The criteria is here.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

SPEED

-Scout dodging the Pomson - 0.15 cc (Sub-Relativistic)

Ok i think i need to specify that i'm not implying with this calc that other projectiles go at the speed of the pomson , i'm using an in game video to demonstrate that is the bare minimum distance the mercs need to dodge the projectile.

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon, but these weapons are from the same sci-fi universe (where it's never implied that the Cow mangler 5000 is a slower projectile than the Pomson).

Wait pyro can air blast the cow mangler?(or are you referring to hin being able to react to it?

-Ball o' lightning - Mach 1282.798834 (Massively Hypersonic+) (NOT CALC)

One of merasmus spells (he doens't uses it but he posesses directly the spell itself) that the mercs use is the Boll o' lightning, this spell consiststs on shooting an electric like projectile that sucks on the mercs in.

Now there are several factors that suggests that this is real lightinig:

• The spell itself is referred already as Ball o' lightning, and the mercs also say while performing said spell "imputum fulmenus" whitch gets translated from latin as "lightning bolt".
• The Lighting attack posesses an electromagnetic field.
• Merasmus spells have shown the capability to generate natural lightning as we can see in hussle castle or the fact that Merasums has a spell that controls electricity in the first place via spells (AKA Boll o' lightning).
• Merasmus has also shown to be capable of creating what effects that resemble lighting bolts, (Merasmus after being angered creates a lighting like effect in the background , His staff creates a lightning like effect after being broken in half , His magic can create a lighting like effect in Gorge when a point is captured).
• It's also shown that the mercs do contract their muscles when they are shocked by it (For example medic heving his legs moving his legs when shocked)
• Isn't really a specified requierment, but the attack is shown to be heat based as it's shown as medic has more resistence and can survive it longer with the vaccinator with the heat resistence on (always the same clip as before).

These 2 that i've shown are both projectile based weapons, these types of weapons have specific models that can be see by the player, and it wouldn't make sense that the mercs aren't capable of dodging said projectile when they are in fact capable of perciving the existance of said projectiles.

Scout in Bonk can not just "dodge" this but the other merhs in game can dodge this.

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

-Heavy stops a train (conservative end) - 6.46 tons of tnt (Large building level) (EVALUATED)

-Heavy still withstood the rest of the train running him over him afterwards and it was able to put it into an alt the first wagons and derail the rest of the train at the point that there were wagons flying.

Think the fact that there were train cars flying about even after Heavy stopped the front cars shows that the full KE of the train shouldn't be scaled to him, and instead only the KE of the first few actually halted.

-Scout moves the fake Ayer's Rock (conservative end) - 389 Tons of tnt (Multi city clock level)

You used the density of completely solid polystyrene here (1060 kg/m^3) when you should probably be using the density of styrofoam (50 kg/m^3), given that the latter is what Heavy states the shell to be comprised of. Would also recommend trying to take into account the weight of the metal beams on the inside, since that might add a bit to the overall mass.

This one scales because Hale as he says that he "beat the hell out of the devil", same devil who has shown to have enviormental manipulation over hell.
Hale gained other abilities like fire manipulation, possible immortality (as he calls the mercs mortals in the voiceline) and teleportation.
Hale is also known for his love for explosions or explosive entraces.

So on my opinion, Hale after willingly teleporting to the mercs (as the voicelines suggest) he decided to cause an explosion (after even making a count down for it as the vulcano starts to have instability only when Hale starts to count down) for a more epic entrace.

You might need a bit more evidence than that to prove that scales to physicals rather than something like Environmental Destruction.

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon, but these weapons are from the same sci-fi universe (where it's never implied that the Cow mangler 5000 is a slower projectile than the Pomson).

Pretty sure it being interacted with that way by airblasts is kind of in of itself a big disqualifier for the Cow Mangler's shots being made of light or whatever.

 

[Comiphorous]

-Scout moves the fake Ayer's Rock (conservative end) - 389 Tons of tnt (Multi city clock level)

Why does this calc assume Scout moved the entire mountain and not just the fake door he punched? Heavy makes it out to not being a big deal because he punched the door, and moved it. Is there any proof he moved the entire mountain itself?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Wait pyro can air blast the cow mangler?(or are you referring to hin being able to react to it?

Apparently he can

Think the fact that there were train cars flying about even after Heavy stopped the front cars shows that the full KE of the train shouldn't be scaled to him, and instead only the KE of the first few actually halted.

My point was, heavy still withstood the train coming at him afterwards. hell heavy was literally burried in wagons and he didn't had a scratch on him.

You used the density of completely solid polystyrene here (1060 kg/m^3) when you should probably be using the density of styrofoam (50 kg/m^3), given that the latter is what Heavy states the shell to be comprised of. Would also recommend trying to take into account the weight of the metal beams on the inside, since that might add a bit to the overall mass.

Will apply that (later but i will!).

I did it, thanks for the correction now it's 2 times the ap thanks to the steel beam thing.

You might need a bit more evidence than that to prove that scales to physicals rather than something like Environmental Destruction.

Does it help that he fought and defeated the same guy who did that?

Pretty sure it being interacted with that way by airblasts is kind of in of itself a big disqualifier for the Cow Mangler's shots being made of light or whatever.

Be fair with me, Pyro's airblast has so weird propreties and he airblast that should not be physically be able to airblast in the first place.

Mf be parrying literal fire

Why does this calc assume Scout moved the entire mountain and not just the fake door he punched? Heavy makes it out to not being a big deal because he punched the door, and moved it. Is there any proof he moved the entire mountain itself?

Ok for starters, this is not the face of a man that does not much of a big deal out of it (considering heavy is a serius ass dude most of the time).

Scout himself wouldn't have said "HELL YEAH I MOVED A MOUNTAIN, I'M STRONG ASFK" if the only part of the dome he moved was the door (or scout each time he opens a door thinks "HELL YEAH I MOVED A BUILDING"), speaking of whitch we do see the rest of the dome moving during the feat (even the part that isn't part of the door) and we do see that heavy opens the dome not by pushing it but by taking a piece off so you can really say even that as it wasn't really supposed to be opened in the first place because there was a secret excavation operation going on there, so it would be stupid to put a door that can be a access that easly.

Also the wiki says the following to this scene "Scout, thinking Heavy an idiot, punches the rock, and it slides immediately without protest. Scout jumps back and announces that he has suddenly become super-humanly strong, but Heavy crushes his fantasy by opening the hidden entrance and revealing that it's made of balsa wood and Styrofoam.".

Because the joke is, "Oh hey, i'm super strong because i pushed a mountain, oh no wait the mountain is made of light materials and it's hollow inside so i'm not that strong (altho he is)"

 

[LandonTheGuy]

That should meet the SoL criteria. Just saying "It was created by the same Sci-fi universe" isn't enough. The criteria is here.

I know the critera for Sol, but that's not the point.

Point is that these is proof that these 2 weapons shoot both radiation based energy blasts:

• The burp for the pomson says "Blasting out rapid pulses of high amplitude, cross spectrum radiation has never been so convenient!", implying that other weapons are capable of doing that in a worse manner but still doing that.
• They have extreamly similar energy beams (cowmangler / pomson) that no other weapon is capable of replicating (exept the only weapons that are straight up confirmed to have radiation/stuff that moves at the speed of light based bullets).

I'm trying to prove that the Cowmangler is a weapon that works based on the same principal based on the same weapons it's affiliated with (with it's not even much of a strech considering the weapon is referred as "wave weaponary" and "focused wave projector").

 

[MaskedDragon908]

Be fair with me, Pyro's airblast has so weird propreties and he airblast that should not be physically be able to

Mf be parrying literal fire

Masked will be fair with you. Air interacting with fire is normal. Air interacting with radiation is not.
The main problem with all of this is how many problems are cropping up with this line of scaling.

"The Cow Mangler 5000 should be comparable to the Pomson" has no scans supporting it.
Pyro reflecting the Cow Mangler's projectile with air is a disqualifier for it being recognized as radiation on the wiki.
The fact that the Cow Mangler projectile moves so slowly in-game is also a disqualifier for it being recognized as radiation on the wiki.

If the argument had more solid basis, Masked would support it, but, unfortunately, it does not.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Masked will be fair with you. Air interacting with fire is normal. Air interacting with radiation is not.

yeah, but the point it that the pyro airblast has demonstrated to have some special propreties, because if we put it in a realistic scenario, if the airblast would come into contact with the fireball it would disperse, not get trown back.

Whitch isn't even abnormal compared to other weapons in game.

"The Cow Mangler 5000 should be comparable to the Pomson" has no scans supporting it.

The cowmangler 5000 has been called a "wave weapon" in the introduction of the victory pack of the weapon set or straight up being called "focused wave projector" in game.

The fact that the Cow Mangler projectile moves so slowly in-game is also a disqualifier for it being recognized as radiation on the wiki.

If the argument had more solid basis, Masked would support it, but, unfortunately, it does not.

I am aware that the hu scaling has wrong basis. in this ctr i'm not using it, i'm proving that the projectile can be reacted upon without hu scaling.

Today i'm here proving that the projectile can be reacted upon with just game mechanics.

 

[AmonInChains]

If that's the proof, I disagree with Cow Mangler being SoL.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

If that's the proof, I disagree with Cow Mangler being SoL.

idk if i added this to the response, but electromagnetic waves do move at the speed of light.

At the end of the day it's your decision if u belive it or not but keep that in mind.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Apparently he can

can't this be caled?

 

[LandonTheGuy]

can't this be caled?https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Projectiles

Considering the cowmangler 5000 has been called a "wave weapon" in the introduction of the victory pack of the weapon set or straight up being called "focused wave projector" in game, i think u can use it as Sol.

Atho this would only count for perception speed as there isn't any moviment involved.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

Considering the cowmangler 5000 has been called a "wave weapon" in the introduction of the victory pack of the weapon set or straight up being called "focused wave projector" in game, i think u can use it as Sol.

Atho this would only count for perception speed as there isn't any moviment involved.

technically it count as reaction/combat speed as pyro can react to and air blast it unless we wanna say that its game mechanics or something like that.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

technically it count as reaction/combat speed as pyro can react to and air blast it unless we wanna say that its game mechanics or something like that.

no yeah i know, i was saing that u prolly aint gonna get a speed but rather a time for the calc because there's no moviment involved.

Btw if u gonna do a calc i suggest u to search the minimum distance pyro can realistically airblast a projectile, i guess a meter or half a meter should be fine but better do some research cuh

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

My point was, heavy still withstood the train coming at him afterwards. hell heavy was literally burried in wagons and he didn't had a scratch on him.

If you're scaling Heavy to him tanking the KE of the cars flying into him, then you'd also need to take into account surface area, which would bump down the feat to probably like Tier 9.

Does it help that he fought and defeated the same guy who did that?

Probably not, since you'd also need evidence that the Devil's powers scale to his own physicals.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

If you're scaling Heavy to him tanking the KE of the cars flying into him, then you'd also need to take into account surface area, which would bump down the feat to probably like Tier 9.

considering this feat is giving so much truble i guess it's fair if we get it off

Probably not, since you'd also need evidence that the Devil's powers scale to his own physicals.

Oh well, still a supporting feat is it?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

At most, the Saxton volcano thing might just be environmental destruction for him as leader of Hell.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

At most, the Saxton volcano thing might just be environmental destruction for him as leader of Hell.

fair to me i guess.

We got Mountain level stuff for Hale anyway.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

@AmonInChains removed the End of the line feat if u still intrested

 

[Jason_Courne]

In the comics the multipliers have been confirmed that the mercs need to buy them and at the start of each round in MVM the mercs don't have any upgrade, knowing this we can assume that the upgrades are temporal and will vanish overtime, meaning that any feat that the mercs have done in the Australium chase storyline counts as base mercs and feats that are done during this time can have upgrades added to them.

Disagree with removing the post-MVM keys entirely because it would result in an unholy chainscaling / circular scaling mess, with the result somehow being:
Gravel War Team Fortress <<< Team Echelon/Citadel/Ajax < Team Classic < Team Fortress at somehow the exact same strength level as during Gravel War?

There's also the matter of pre-MVM mercs being complet fodder against Gray Mann's robots, and yet, long post-MVM, The Naked and the Dead has all of the mercs casually destroying robots with ease, it's even implied Demo took down a tank on his own, so the upgrades aren't just temporary and the reset between each match / game can be chalked up to gameplay mechanics

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Disagree with removing the post-MVM keys entirely because it would result in an unholy chainscaling / circular scaling mess, with the result somehow being:
Gravel War Team Fortress <<< Team Echelon/Citadel/Ajax < Team Classic < Team Fortress at somehow the exact same strength level as during Gravel War?

There's also the matter of pre-MVM mercs being complet fodder against Gray Mann's robots, and yet, long post-MVM, The Naked and the Dead has all of the mercs casually destroying robots with ease, it's even implied Demo took down a tank on his own, so the upgrades aren't just temporary and the reset between each match / game can be chalked up to gameplay mechanics

That would also save me a lot of editing.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Disagree with removing the post-MVM keys entirely because it would result in an unholy chainscaling / circular scaling mess, with the result somehow being:
Gravel War Team Fortress <<< Team Echelon/Citadel/Ajax < Team Classic < Team Fortress at somehow the exact same strength level as during Gravel War?

There's also the matter of pre-MVM mercs being complet fodder against Gray Mann's robots, and yet, long post-MVM, The Naked and the Dead has all of the mercs casually destroying robots with ease, it's even implied Demo took down a tank on his own, so the upgrades aren't just temporary and the reset between each match / game can be chalked up to gameplay mechanics

Lowkey, i like your idea.

So do we go like?:

-Gravel War 14.55 tons of tnt

-Robot war mercs between 436.8 tons of tnt/1.36 kilotons (depends how yall wanna proceed with the higher end of the cowmangler charged shoot), (btw yes, soldier can survive the cow mangler charged shot without upgrades) and with upgrades 873.6 tons of tnt/2,72 kilotons.

-Australium chase mercs at least between one of the 2 values presented.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump (i'll be out for a while so sometime i'll take time to respond)

 

[LandonTheGuy]

bump (i'm back)

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Should change the thread title to relativistic.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

Should change the thread title to relativistic.

sure, "FTL" should be better

 

[Rex_Eckles]

In the comics the multipliers have been confirmed that the mercs need to buy them and at the start of each round in MVM the mercs don't have any upgrade, knowing this we can assume that the upgrades are temporal and will vanish overtime, meaning that any feat that the mercs have done in the Australium chase storyline counts as base mercs and feats that are done during this time can have upgrades added to them.

I disagree with this for reasons above, and that all this confirms is that canonically the mercs don't initially have the upgrades at the beginning of the war. I say upgrades should be permanent, which corresponds with the mercs initially being weaker and losing a lot of blood against the robots, but by the end easily defeating hordes of them.

REMOVAL OF HALE SCALING FOR THE MERCS

Probably should give the justifications for this so everyone's on the same page.

These last 2 feats are kinda outlierish for the phisical stats of the mercs, so as an alternative i propose to give these values only to these characters:

1. Pyro, engi and Soldier Ap with these weapons (not physically), as they have are the only ones who have weapons statements.

Doesn't the Pomson 6000 have subatomic statements too? It really should be all of nothing, either the mercs scale to the weapons or not instead of dividing the "outlierly" values from the lower ones.

These 2 that i've shown are both projectile based weapons, these types of weapons have specific models that can be see by the player, and it wouldn't make sense that the mercs aren't capable of dodging said projectile when they are in fact capable of perciving the existance of said projectiles.

Since Pyro can't airblast them, it would be ideal to get a calc for dodging them.

Since Pyro CAN airblast the Cowmangler's projectile, I'm fine with combat speeding scaling to SoL as long as it's accepted to move that fast.

 

[LandonTheGuy]

I disagree with this for reasons above, and that all this confirms is that canonically the mercs don't initially have the upgrades at the beginning of the war. I say upgrades should be permanent, which corresponds with the mercs initially being weaker and losing a lot of blood against the robots, but by the end easily defeating hordes of them.

mb forgot to delete that part from the thread after Jason's comment, the scaling that is going to be used is the following:

• Gravel war mercs (and whoever scales to them): 11.45 tons of tnt (city block level), 178.43 Kilotons (Large Town Level) with sub-Atomization weapons (considering they are prior of the robot wars, and the robots have been stated to be stronger than them i guess it sould be a corrected scaling the vaporization feats of the Robot war only to the robot war mercs) and 1cc (Sol) combat reaction speed.

• Robot War mercs (and whoever scales to them): 436.8 tons of tnt/1.36 kilotons (Multi city block level+/Small Town level) (depends how yall wanna proceed with the higher end of the cowmangler charged shoot), (btw yes, soldier can survive the cow mangler charged shot, even without upgrades) and with upgrades 873.6 tons of tnt/2,72 kilotons 178.43 Kilotons (Large Town Level) with sub-Atomization weapons. combat reaction speed, 1,4cc with upgrades (FTL).

• Australium chase mercs (and whoever scales to them): They should be above the previus scaling as they have shown the capability of demolishing Grey mann's army (some of them bare handed and naked and without breaking a sweat) whitch were capable of harming and killing the mercs (even with upgrades). So yeah, At least 873.6 tons of tnt/2,72 kilotons (Multi city block level+/Small Town level) and 1.4 c (FTL).

• Hale tier (God tier of the verse): At least 981 Megatons (Mountain+) (Hale can survive a crit charged projectile of the pomson in VSH, said crit can deal 3 times the base damage) and as a cherry on the top of the cake 2.94 Gigatons of tnt (Large Mountain) with Saxton Punch! (As this one deals a crit damage, so we give him the 3 times multiplier too) and 1,4cc (FTL) reaction speed.

Probably should give the justifications for this so everyone's on the same page.

I'ma delete that part considering the reason that ppl didn't like it was because of their impression of the verse

Doesn't the Pomson 6000 have subatomic statements too? It really should be all of nothing, either the mercs scale to the weapons or not instead of dividing the "outlierly" values from the lower ones.

I think i've fallen into the old 9-A scaling of tf2, we can do 2 things on my opinion:

• Keeping it like this
• Doing like something like possibly those values

(For example the Gravel wars mercs would be 11.45 tons of tnt, possibly 178 Kilotons)

u tell me

Since Pyro can't airblast them, it would be ideal to get a calc for dodging them.

I think @Plants_vs_zombies_fan101 is doing that.

Since Pyro CAN airblast the Cowmangler's projectile, I'm fine with combat speeding scaling to SoL as long as it's accepted to move that fast.

The weapon has the same statement as the pomson basically, so i don't understand why the other guy rejected it.

Thanks anyway.