NON TOURNAMENT MATCH: MONSTER KING OROCHI OPM vs Halibel Re:Zero

[DemonicDude]

Good for you. Luckily the voting process isn't dependent on the OP

My tournament, Every single person participating needs to follow mannered rules for voting and debating. Do it professionally or get out.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

My tournament, Every single person participating needs to follow mannered rules for voting and debating. Do it professionally or get out.

And it's not tournament rules. It's vswiki rules for adding matchups onto profile. You are always welcome to dictate the tournament portion of it and who progresses, but normal grace/voting rules still applies for what match is going onto the pages.

 

[VortechsTG]

voting and then contiuning to argue is illogical. First all arugments shall be

I feel like it should be pointed out that this is a post entirely in response to a theoretical strategy for Orochi that hasn't even been suggested to be possible thus far and was only made because the votes were removed and it was insisted more debate is necessary. I don't think this is illogical.

As for the rest, I sort of agree for courtesy sake but Castorice is still technically correct that you can't decide to remove the votes. But I will take mine back for now out of courtesy if you want me to. I do, however, feel like we had reached a stage of repeating the same points before this.

 

[DemonicDude]

And it's not tournament rules. It's vswiki rules for adding matchups onto profile. You are always welcome to dictate the tournament portion of it and who progresses, but normal grace/voting rules still applies for what match is going onto the pages.

And i have every right to make sure the debating goes smooth and everything argument both present are:
A- Noticed
B- Replied
C- Debated

How the heck do people want to vote for either side when
this

Decided to check out the chapter since this seemed sketchy. It mentions the big green lights being Tataumaki's. The beams here just show impressive range rather than aoe, as I've been saying.

Does he? You should really get that on his profile.

In any case, Orochi does not have the aoe to fill the arena and for someone like Halibel who he can't detect and can freely fight mid-air and teleport all around the arena with substitution jutsu that is going to be a problem. And he can't use power mimicry without being able to see Halibel. From midair, Halibel would just have to avoid the stray beams being fired all around. Dealing with even targeted beam danmaku is something he has more than demonstrated being capable of avoiding even without any of his special techniques. He can just sit back and focus on evasion with his main body and use his secondary clones to attack. A single contact from any of them or their kunai would be instant death. That would happen very quickly.

I'm voting Halibel.

and this

Let's say, theoretically, orochi can and does completely shroud himself with fire to prevent Halibel's clones from getting close, despite not seeing him or having any prior knowledge on him. Halibel's stealth and mobility will still buy him the time he needs to find the deadspot and power-null it away. Orochi is on a very tight time limit here and Halibel is very hard to hit.

HAS NOT BEEN REPLIED

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

And i have every right to make sure the debating goes smooth and everything both
A- Noticed
B- Replied
C- Debates

How the heck do people want to vote for either side when
this


and this





HAS NOT BEEN REPLIED

Good for you. The match is still going to get added onto pages regardless on how you want it or if you count votes once grace concludes with one of them reaching 7 votes and having a 3 vote difference as dictated by Vswiki rules.

The people are welcome to take back their vote out of courtesy like @VortechsTG did but for anyone else who doesn't take back their vote then their votes aren't forced removed. (And I will count the votes myself in some notepad to make sure)

 

[Kachon123]

Okay first, can you all chill for a bit.

I need to finish some other things right now. After I'm done I'll decide if I'm too tired to respond since it's 2 am over here. If I can't I'll respond tomorrow morning/early afternoon.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Does Orochi's attack count as "aoE" or just spamming "danmaku"? Since it seems to be "cylanders" that are firing out from each head, not a massive nuke all attack.

 

[DemonicDude]

The match is still going to get added onto pages regardless on how you want it or if you count votes once grace concludes with one of them reaching 7 votes and having a 3 vote difference as dictated by Vswiki rules.

Strawman.
There is no dictation of votes here.
Arguments needs to be replied and addressed by participating parties the fact "you" are dragging this thread and i know you are gonna reply to what i'm tying here is a completly proves you are not fit to undestand what debating is.

Anyone can vote for anybody, what i want are arguments to not be left ignored.

these 2 arguments can very much change the course of this match and yet you have a problem with this. Meaning = you PROBABALY don't want key arguments to be addressed.

That is sad and it hurts. Once both parties present full arguments people who actually vote who write why are they picking a side to begin with. (Thus giving them more context instead of "yeah i vote for this character" but 3 pages later a "a new argument happened" but i didn't read that)
see how bad it is, let them both debate their heads out.

 

[Phoenks]

As much as it hurts, Halibel low-diffs Orochi here.

Orochi can't even sense him at all, for one. He has layered invisibility.

And Orochi wouldn't be able to hit him at all, either. He scales to characters that can dodge far, far more insane shit than a couple of energy blasts.

He kinda just cuts Orochi with the Fiend Sword one time and that's the end of the fight.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Strawman.
There is no dictation of votes here.
Arguments needs to be replied and addressed by participating parties the fact "you" are dragging this thread and i know you are gonna reply to what i'm tying here is a completly proves you are not fit to undestand what debating is.

Anyone can vote for anybody, what i want are arguments to not be left ignored.

these 2 arguments can very much change the course of this match and yet you have a problem with this. Meaning = you PROBABALY don't want key arguments to be addressed.

That is sad and it hurts. Once both parties present full arguments people who actually vote who write why are they picking a side to begin with. (Thus giving them more context instead of "yeah i vote for this character" but 3 pages later a "a new argument happened" but i didn't read that)
see how bad it is, let them both debate their heads out.

Whatever you say broskie. The match will still be added properly onto profiles regardless.

As much as it hurts, Halibel low-diffs Orochi here.

Orochi can't even sense him at all, for one. He has layered invisibility.

And Orochi wouldn't be able to hit him at all, either. He scales to characters that can dodge far, far more insane shit than a couple of energy blasts.

He kinda just cuts Orochi with the Fiend Sword one time and that's the end of the fight.

Does Orochi have a single win con at all then.

 

[DemonicDude]

If I can't I'll respond tomorrow morning/early afternoon.

It's okay rest. Everyone should rest:

Once you have time tomorrow, these are 4 things you need to address:

1

Decided to check out the chapter since this seemed sketchy. It mentions the big green lights being Tataumaki's. The beams here just show impressive range rather than aoe, as I've been saying.

Does he? You should really get that on his profile.

In any case, Orochi does not have the aoe to fill the arena and for someone like Halibel who he can't detect and can freely fight mid-air and teleport all around the arena with substitution jutsu that is going to be a problem. And he can't use power mimicry without being able to see Halibel. From midair, Halibel would just have to avoid the stray beams being fired all around. Dealing with even targeted beam danmaku is something he has more than demonstrated being capable of avoiding even without any of his special techniques. He can just sit back and focus on evasion with his main body and use his secondary clones to attack. A single contact from any of them or their kunai would be instant death. That would happen very quickly.

I'm voting Halibel.

and this
2

Let's say, theoretically, orochi can and does completely shroud himself with fire to prevent Halibel's clones from getting close, despite not seeing him or having any prior knowledge on him. Halibel's stealth and mobility will still buy him the time he needs to find the deadspot and power-null it away. Orochi is on a very tight time limit here and Halibel is very hard to hit.

and this
3

Does Orochi's attack count as "aoE" or just spamming "danmaku"? Since it seems to be "cylanders" that are firing out from each head, not a massive nuke all attack.

3

This would give us a much much clearer view of what reason people should pick to vote and for who.

Phoenks​

It's not "passive," but it basically is because his whole thing is that he's the best ninja in the world. Nobody can sense his presence. He'd be able to just vanish from Orochi's sight whenever he wants.

Also, like, it doesn't even matter. Idk if guys are just refusing to read the insanely detailed sections that Zab wrote, but it pretty clearly paints a picture that this is a guy that isn't going to get hit by some run of the mill energy blast AOE danmaku.

And his sword has tens of kilometers range. A sword that would just instant one-shot Orochi with zero resistance, mind you.

4

He has layered invisibility.

And Orochi wouldn't be able to hit him at all, either.

Now this is a key point in this debate, How does his layered invisibility work ?
is it passive?

If someone can't sense him to begin with, then how can tier-setter after flying into space or near Clouds in strastophere of Earth hits Halibel if he can't even sense him.

 

[Phoenks]

It's not "passive," but it basically is because his whole thing is that he's the best ninja in the world. Nobody can sense his presence. He'd be able to just vanish from Orochi's sight whenever he wants.

Also, like, it doesn't even matter. Idk if guys are just refusing to read the insanely detailed sections that Zab wrote, but it pretty clearly paints a picture that this is a guy that isn't going to get hit by some run of the mill energy blast AOE danmaku.

And his sword has tens of kilometers range. A sword that would just instant one-shot Orochi with zero resistance, mind you.

 

[VortechsTG]

He kinda just cuts Orochi with the Fiend Sword one time and that's the end of the fight.

The fiend sword is not included here btw but deadspots are just as potent anyway. They just require a little bit more set-up. I agree otherwise.

 

[DemonicDude]

Also, like, it doesn't even matter. Idk if guys are just refusing to read the insanely detailed sections that Zab wrote, but it pretty clearly paints a picture that this is a guy that isn't going to get hit by some run of the mill energy blast AOE danmaku.

And his sword has tens of kilometers range. A sword that would just instant one-shot Orochi with zero resistance, mind you.

if that's the case Halibel wins this match (just need to make sure it's the stomp or not)


so these can not hit him ?




can you please confirm the around 50 percent lose ratio to shock rock 3rd key?

 

[VortechsTG]

If someone can't sense him to begin with, then how can tier-setter after flying into space or near Clouds in strastophere of Earth hits Halibel if he can't even sense him.

I've been confused from the very start how Shock Rock is supposed to beat Halibel. Not sure why Satella thinks that.

 

[Phoenks]

if that's the case Halibel wins this match (just need to make sure it's the stomp or not)


so these can not hit him ?




can you please confirm the around 50 percent lose ratio to shock rock 3rd key?

Those would never hit Halibel or even ******* Wilhem van Astrea even if his eyes were closed and he was half asleep and you gave that guy 1,000 years to do it.

 

[VortechsTG]

Maybe it's time for that paraconsistent physiology qrt

 

[DemonicDude]

votes

• Monster King Orochi: 1 (Kacchon but admin @Phoenks disagree here)
• Halibel: 2 (CastoriceTheFifth, VortechsTG)
• Incon:

if not a stomp should be a fine victory for halibel as stated by admin.

0

Pick different character according to tier setter to continue the tournament.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

But yeah, my vote is on Halibel atm.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm not admin for vsbw (nor does that even matter, this is a matchup, not a CRT), also, tbh this is probably a stomp or just really close to it.

Like maybe Orochi could nuke the entire area and kill him as a win condition, but it's more likely for him to fire multiple beams and just end up with Halibel disappearing into the shadows and reappearing near his head with his one-shot at the ready. Nothing Orochi could do about it at that point.

Idk who said he'd lose to that bum ahh Ben 10 character but they clearly had an agenda lying their ass off to get in the tournament for real.

 

[Voidnether]

Halibel FRA, their argument and scenario made more sense to me than the other party

 

[DemonicDude]

bum ahh Ben 10 character but they clearly had an agenda

ahemmmm that bum "ckucked" garou in 2020

1. Shock Rock vs Garou 2020

lying their ass off to get in the tournament for real.

 

[Phoenks]

Bro I went to the thread and he was also suggesting Reid Astrea or Cecilus LOL

 

[VortechsTG]

I'm not really involved in Ben 10 stuff these days and I haven't watched the reboot so I can't speak to Shock Rock specifically but I used to be really into it around the timeframe of UA to OV airing and I can say with absolute certainty that you would need someone like Atomix or Gravattack to even think of challenging Halibel. The fact that he is in the same tournament as Heatblast and Eye Guy is beyond me. But I showed up late so I didn't want to complain originally.

 

[VortechsTG]

Bro I went to the thread and he was also suggesting Reid Astrea or Cecilus LOL

Actually insane lmao

 

[DemonicDude]

I'm not really involved in Ben 10 stuff these days and I haven't watched the reboot so I can't speak to Shock Rock specifically but I used to be really into it around the timeframe of UA to OV airing and I can say with absolute certainty that you would need someone like Atomix or Gravattack to even think of challenging Halibel. The fact that he is in the same tournament as Heatblast and Eye Guy is beyond me. But I showed up late so I didn't want to complain originally.

Actually insane lmao

User @Shadowslash125 admits here that their character does not lose to tier setter near 50 percent

and now Phokenks and @VortechsTG both confirms @SatellaTheWoE character does not lose to shock rock around 50 percent or closer.

Due to both character not losing to tier setter near 50 percent.
@SatellaTheWoE and @Shadowslash125

My goal here to make sure that people get proper matches with proper conclusion to the point they get added to the profiles.

if character do not lose to tier setter, i'm 100 percent willing to make rematches to make sure tournmanent goes smooth.

Everything will be officially addressed at Main Tournament Thread

So your fates are now in the hands of people of this tournament:

1- both pick new characters and we do Round 1 again.
2- both exist. (I proceed with 15 people bracket which i have prepared for backup everything remains same or I find other people to participate.)

The decision is in PEOPLE'S HAND TO VOTE

 

[DemonicDude]

I'm not really involved in Ben 10 stuff these days and I haven't watched the reboot so I can't speak to Shock Rock specifically

True GOAT of the franchise.
highest win loss record bro

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DemonicDude/Ben_10_Aliens_Win_Loss_Record_on_Versus_Battle_Wiki

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Bro I went to the thread and he was also suggesting Reid Astrea or Cecilus LOL

I specifically said those two would be too much gang

shock rock's space version can win by going to space and then TKIng him, Halibel cannot survive in space, its a matter of compatibility (its also a range thing)

 

[Kachon123]

Decided to check out the chapter since this seemed sketchy. It mentions the big green lights being Tataumaki's. The beams here just show impressive range rather than aoe, as I've been saying.

It said the big green light, singular. Those explosions in the air are the result of Orochi's beams being fired.

In any case, Orochi does not have the aoe to fill the arena and for someone like Halibel who he can't detect and can freely fight mid-air and teleport all around the arena with substitution jutsu that is going to be a problem. And he can't use power mimicry without being able to see Halibel. From midair, Halibel would just have to avoid the stray beams being fired all around. Dealing with even targeted beam danmaku is something he has more than demonstrated being capable of avoiding even without any of his special techniques. He can just sit back and focus on evasion with his main body and use his secondary clones to attack. A single contact from any of them or their kunai would be instant death. That would happen very quickly.

You can ignore the scans as much as you want, but I already showed Orochi's beams having significant aoe and him being able to spam hundreds at once. Halibel's skills are all things that Orochi can copy just by looking at his stance, meaning before he even activates his layered stealth, Orochi would be able to do the same exact thing. Halibel literally will not be able to avoid the aoe from Orochi's beams, or the dura neg WCIF coming from the hundreds of dragon arms and horns that home in. Orochi can revive himself as I've already proved and he has resistance to soul destruction as I've already proved, so deadspot is not the wincon you think it is. The requirement for a win is the following:

Removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting them in a state in which they can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions. Death of the opponent also qualifies as an immediate victory, as long as the resulting state of the opponent would, if the fight went on, eventually qualify for at least one of the three priorly listed conditions

So even if you want to argue that it would work initially, after Orochi revives, his physiology would grant him complete resistance to the curse, which is Halibel's only wincon here.

Does Orochi's attack count as "aoE" or just spamming "danmaku"? Since it seems to be "cylanders" that are firing out from each head, not a massive nuke all attack.

It's both.

 

[MrTayman616]

It's both.

This as well ig.

And his sword has tens of kilometers range. A sword that would just instant one-shot Orochi with zero resistance, mind you.

Why would it one shot from that distance? Cuz of deadspot?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

This as well ig.

Why would it one shot from that distance? Cuz of deadspot?

the sword he is talking about is the fiend sword

 

[MrTayman616]

the sword he is talking about is the fiend sword

That's what i thought too, but i wanted to ask regardless since it's not usable. (So i thought he might be referring to something else)

Fiend sword isn't usable as only standard equipments are allowed.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

what kind of bs is this

It said the big green light, singular. Those explosions in the air are the result of Orochi's beams being fired.

You can ignore the scans as much as you want, but I already showed Orochi's beams having significant aoe and him being able to spam hundreds at once.

this is not even close to what halibel has already dodged

Halibel's skills are all things that Orochi can copy just by looking at his stance,

firstly, i need a scan for this.

meaning before he even activates his layered stealth, Orochi would be able to do the same exact thing.

this is straight up nlf, he cannot copy haxes. Especially when Halibel doesn't need a stance, he can just kill his presence. The dodging is also not copyable due to being logic breaking.

Halibel literally will not be able to avoid the aoe from Orochi's beams, or the dura neg WCIF coming from the hundreds of dragon arms and horns that home in.

again, this isnt even close to the things he has dodged before

Orochi can revive himself as I've already proved and he has resistance to soul destruction as I've already proved, so deadspot is not the wincon you think it is. The requirement for a win is the following:

what are you talking about? he has no resistance to soul destruction, he also only survived due to his large size, he has no resistance to death manipulation either. Add it to the profile if you are so confident, don't bring up made up shit. This isnt a who can bs more competition.

Anyways, the beams can't do anything effective anyway because Orochi wouldn't be able to sense where he is, nor could he do anything about the deadspot, nor the fact that Halibel after seeing a technique once will never be able to be hit by it again.

 

[Kachon123]

this is not even close to what halibel has already dodged

The aoe is bigger than what Halibel can dodge. He's instantly getting vaporized.

firstly, i need a scan for this.

Here

this is straight up nlf, he cannot copy haxes. Especially when Halibel doesn't need a stance, he can just kill his presence. The dodging is also not copyable due to being logic breaking.

He literally can lmfao. Consuming Orochi's cells are what give the verse 99% of their hax in the first place. His physiology is such that he's able to gain new abilities and haxes by experiencing them. It's not nlf. Argue with ONE and Murata, not me.

By reading Halibel's line of sight, posture, and center of gravity, Orochi can see all possible future movements.

again, this isnt even close to the things he has dodged before

again, it's bigger aoe than Halibel can dodge

what are you talking about? he has no resistance to soul destruction, he also only survived due to his large size, he has no resistance to death manipulation either. Add it to the profile if you are so confident, don't bring up made up shit. This isnt a who can bs more competition.

He has these abilities. Whoever removed the willpower page didn't reallocate the abilities to the correct profiles, and it's something that's still being fixed on almost every single page for the verse. I already explained why he has them earlier in the thread.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

The aoe is bigger than what Halibel can dodge. He's instantly getting vaporized.

nope, he can dodge things that are physically impossible to dodge

Here

this is a scan of him copying the techniques after seeing them once, nothing tells me he does it by seeing the stance

He literally can lmfao. Consuming Orochi's cells are what give the verse 99% of their hax in the first place. His physiology is such that he's able to gain new abilities and haxes by experiencing them. It's not nlf. Argue with ONE and Murata, not me.

cool then, he can't experience something he can't sense

By reading Halibel's line of sight, posture, and center of gravity, Orochi can see all possible future movements.

yk this shit is like very amateur in re zero right? Halibel upscales from Theresia who is insurmountably superior to old wilhelm, who could do this shit against an enemy with attacks that he couldn't see, hear or feel.

i am adding this for the funnies because roswaal is a magician

Unfathomably superior to Roswaal, who when faced with an invisible attack, cast out of sync with the caster's gaze and breathing, all with a feint attack added for good measure easily pinpointed and neutralized it.

again, it's bigger aoe than Halibel can dodge

he can just powernull it or dodge it

He has these abilities. Whoever removed the willpower page didn't reallocate the abilities to the correct profiles, and it's something that's still being fixed on almost every single page for the verse. I already explained why he has them earlier in the thread.

He scales superior to Psykos' resistance to the following

gang what.

he does not scale above psykos

 

[Kachon123]

nope, he can dodge things that are physically impossible to dodge

There's a difference between dodging rain and dodging an aoe explosion. Explosions create omnidirectional shocks. Orochi has far greater AP than Halibel, enough to oneshot him a million times over. Unless he's literally not in the ring anymore, he's being hit by the explosion and its shockwave getting turned into dust.

this is a scan of him copying the techniques after seeing them once, nothing tells me he does it by seeing the stance

Huh? He copied Garou from looking at his stance.

cool then, he can't experience something he can't sense

You can't a real person Experiencing stealth mastery is going through the process of having Halibel disappear from his eyes. The moment that happens, Orochi will be able to do the same.

yk this shit is like very amateur in re zero right? Halibel upscales from Theresia who is insurmountably superior to old wilhelm, who could do this shit against an enemy with attacks that he couldn't see, hear or feel.

i am adding this for the funnies because roswaal is a magician

Thanks for letting me know? Why is this relevant to the conversation, you're not tracking.

Halibel has to activate his layered stealth so that he can move around without being detected. Orochi can see said movement before he activates the stealth mastery to begin with. Halibel would need a flatout resistance to this type of AnPr for Orochi to not be able to do so.

he can just powernull it or dodge it

Power null what? It's hundreds of dragon heads repeatedly spamming explosive beams. Even if he nulls one of the blasts, there's still hundreds of shockwaves propagating throughout the arena. There's no world where he can survive this. I also find it very ironic how you said that I'm spouting bs when you're trying to claim that Halibel can dodge hundreds of omnidirectional shockwaves, each with millions of times more power than he can even dream of, in a closed environment, all while being scorched by the sheer heat of being in Orochi's vicinity.

he does not scale above psykos

He explicitly does.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

There's a difference between dodging rain and dodging an aoe explosion. Explosions create omnidirectional shocks. Orochi has far greater AP than Halibel, enough to oneshot him a million times over. Unless he's literally not in the ring anymore, he's being hit by the explosion and its shockwave getting turned into dust.

its logic breaking dodging. He can dodge attacks that he physically cannot dodge. dodging a rain of light or a mist of light is impossible because there is no physical space for him to dodge but he does so anyway.

Transcendents like himself can avoid deadly rain by instinctive intuition, and avoid an unavoidable rain of light, although a mist of light would be troublesome. He is comparable to Cecilus, who as a child was able to; avoid numerous projectiles compared to the raindrops in a storm or the grains in a sandstorm, with such precision that he could intentionally lead the projectiles to form the shape of Tokyo Tower

On that note though, Ram has dodged invisible explosions going off in a narrow corridor and she is an eternity of traning below Theresia who Halibel upscales to. This is pretty much the exact same scenario.

Huh? He copied Garou from looking at his stance.

he had already seen garou fight at this point, this doesn't indicate that he has copied it from just his stance

You can't a real person Experiencing stealth mastery is going through the process of having Halibel disappear from his eyes. The moment that happens, Orochi will be able to do the same.

nlf, you did have to prove orochi can copy things he can't sense. or that he could copy that level of stealth mastery at all.

Thanks for letting me know? Why is this relevant to the conversation, you're not tracking.

that level of skill is elementary and since orochi can't copy Halibel due to not being able to sense him it did be super easy for Halibel to counter everything he can do

Halibel has to activate his layered stealth so that he can move around without being detected. Orochi can see said movement before he activates the stealth mastery to begin with

already addressed why this isnt true

Halibel would need a flatout resistance to this type of AnPr for Orochi to not be able to do so.

Can orochi even do anything about fate based intuition that makes halibel always choose the correct move, he uses this to precog too.

• Fate Manipulation & Blessed (Several individuals, through their intuition, consistently select the "correct answer" in various situations as they are loved by fate itself. Fate is a law of the world used by the Observers, supernatural existences that are beyond the framework, to manipulate every event at will. To the Observers, the world is nothing more than a puppet show of fixed events and predestined fate)

• Analytical Prediction (Martial artists and warriors, as well as magicians, can predict their opponent's next moves by intuition, experience, or reading the form of mana)

snip

well yeah, you did have to prove orochi could hit someone who can dodge physically impossible to dodge attacks

He explicitly does.

nothing in this scan suggest he does


anyways without a resistance to death hax, he is getting one shotted from any attack tha lands on him especially since orochi prefers tanking to dodging attacks

 

[VortechsTG]

Satella showing up to the match to immediately take a shit on the floor

 

[Epiccheev]

Satella showing up to the match to immediately take a shit on the floor

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

But can Orochi dodge explosions without leaving its radius fr