Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[ExcelsisBerny]

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated.

Let’s dance, Blaze.

---

The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am going to limit myself to responding to the important parts that seem directly wrong to me, either because of overanalysis or because you are cherry picking information, which, funnily enough, dismantle any kind of High 1-A+ scaling.

I would like to start with something the OP is directly and objectively wrong about, which is claiming that the Outer Gods are infinite in number.

Quoting the OP directly:

"This alongside there being infinite Outer Gods each with its own separate individual that can act as subject for predication, though unknown what it could amount to, refutes any argument for finiteness of space."

The issue with this is that the novel never, and I repeat, NEVER, directly states that the Outer Gods are infinite in number. When the God Universes appear before Akuto and Bouichirou in ACT 13, no number is ever mentioned per se, so there is no concrete way to assign a value to the number of Gods that exist. The scene itself is considerably vague in that regard.

This is the relevant text:

Are they all like me?" he asked, and the outer gods disappeared without answering. The people, or universes, that he'd glimpsed vanished as well. Only Boichiro and Akuto remained at the table.

"They're probably the same as us."

They sat in shocked silence for a while, but eventually Boichiro was the first to speak.

"They, and you, are universes. God Universes, I guess you could call them. No, you could say that until you unleashed the possibilities of the world, you alone were like them."

Boichiro pointed at Akuto, Akuto let out a long sigh and nodded.

"The birth of a universe is like the birth of a story. If a universe is a collection of stories, there could be any number of beings on the outside that are like us."

-- ACT 13: CH 4

Bouichirou states that the birth of a universe is, technically, equivalent to the birth of a story, and at the same time, a universe itself is a collection of stories.

Because of this mechanism, which is strangely similar to the typical multiversal model that operates through branches of possibility, where each individual possibility likewise gives rise to the existence of a multitude of different possibilities, there can be "any number" of those entities (this strongly implies that the number of "outer universes" is equivalent to the number of "Outer Gods" by mere correlation).

In the original Japanese, the expression used to indicate quantity is いくらでも, which refers, usually hyperbolically, to an immense but finite amount of something.

RAW
「宇宙の誕生は、物語の誕生に似ていた。宇宙が複数の物語だとすれば、外側には僕と似たような存在がいくらでもあるのだろうね」

TL
'The birth of the universe was similar to the birth of a story. If the universe is multiple stories, then outside, there are probably any number of beings similar to me.'

-- ACT 13: CH 4

And this is not something I am saying just to try to downplay this verse, but something Mizuki himself (the author) clarifies twice to fans who ask him questions on Twitter/X. And it is funny because, unlike other statements where it is obvious that Mizuki does not understand the questions, this time the guy answers directly, flatly denying that there are infinite Outer Gods.

Question
You said countless Archetypal extra-universal gods, for example, do you have a number like 10,100,1000 in your mind, also, are all Archetypal gods equal or one trascendes the other?

Answer
Extra-universal gods cannot be counted in real numbers(They are mixed), but I don't think they are infinite.

-- Scans

Question
In the novel, Archetype Extra Universe God, there is a sentence for Extra God, "They were humanoid and countless in number." When you say countless, do you mean infinite number?

Answer
It's a mess caused by translation. countless ≠ infinite. means many

-- Scans

And this should be obvious even contextually. DKD’s cosmology does not work like MWI or anything similar, where the wave function does not collapse and therefore all the endless possibilities have concrete existence from the beginning, rather than being mere abstractions.

Instead, the verse openly tells you that the process of 'world' creation, from its beginnings in the Void Universe up to the Gravity Universe (where beings already possess individuality and start developing stories), takes thousands of years. This means it is openly and normally causally progressive, not infinite from its inception, which also disproves the idea that the timeline stretching back to the beginning of all stories is infinite/eternal.

In other words, if the process of creating stories depends on time, finite time is needed to develop stories, and an infinite amount of time has not passed from the Void Universe to the formation of the God Universes, the only logical conclusion is that the God Universes are NOT infinite, and consequently, neither are the universes.

“I am the Gravity Universe. There, existence becomes one with its outer walls and gains mass.”

The image turned to that of the gravity universe. There was light and darkness. And existence there, while still amoeba-like, had clearly defined walls
separating it from its exterior. They were like the walls of a cell, shining in the reflected light.

“You!” the voices shouted. But though it was the same sound, they sounded like an angry yell. This time, the beings were aiming for each other. They would
fly at each other in order to collide.

“The walls mean that the cry of ‘Who!’ never escapes to the outside. The beings advance in search of others,” the blue figure said, as they continued to see what was happening. The beings collided, and the one with the weaker walls burst. Most of its insides would melt into space, but a tiny part was absorbed by the walls of the stronger.

-- ACT 13: CH 5

“The concept of ‘cruel’ is only something you feel because you view things through stories. You will simply start over from the beginning. In the next instant, you’ll go to the void universe, and then you will shift to the faceless universe, and then the gravity universe. Though it may take tens of thousands of years.”

“Don’t say that! Am I starting the story over from scratch?”

“There’s nothing that can be done about it. Because you are you.”

-- ACT 13: CH 6

---

Now then, despite everything shown, and despite the fact that the author himself directly establishes that the Outer Gods are not infinite, the OP tries to provide evidence to support the idea that the Outer Gods and possibilities are infinite, so I will now respond to those arguments one by one:

Argument #1: Bouichirou said that the universes are infinite.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:

“That’s a little off. ‘Other dimension’ and ‘outer universe’ are two words for the same thing. We don’t know a lot about other dimensions, except that there’s probably infinite numbers of them. But as for the others, you’re correct. And the Law of Identity is involved in them all. It’s likely that she made them. And that’s why they’re relatively easy to understand.”

-- ACT 13: CH 1

The problem with this argument is that it conveniently ignores two facts. The first is that Bouichirou has no way of knowing whether there are infinite Outer Universes or not, since he has never traveled to all of them. The second is that the phrase itself uses “probably,” which denotes that it is simply a theory.

And we already know that both the narrative itself and the author debunk that theory, so using this as evidence is completely invalid.

As if that were not enough, the original japanese version does not even say “infinite.” Instead, it uses the kanji 無数, meaning “countless,” which in this context means a very large number.

RAW
少し違う。異次元と外宇宙は言葉の違いで同じものだ。異次元についてはよくわかっていない。おそらくは無数にあるのだろう……としか。だが、他(ほか)は正しい分類だ。それらにはすべて自同律が関(かか)わっている。

TL
Slightly different. Different dimensions and outer universes are the same thing, differing only in terminology. As for different dimensions, they are not well understood. Only that there are probably countless of them... But the others are correct classifications. The law of identity is involved in all of them.

-- ACT 13: CH 1

Argument #2: Yoshie said that there are infinite parallel possible worlds.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:

Yoshie began to explain the concept of possible worlds, which was difficult to understand just from the database.

For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.

-- ACT 13: CH 3

There are multiple problems with this.

To begin with, Yoshie is talking about potentialities, not actualities. The purpose she gives Akuto in that scene is to actualize all theoretical possible worlds into reality, so if those possibilities need to be actualized first, then they are not something that concretely exists.

Therefore, you cannot use the number of these kinds of possibilities to argue that they are equivalent to the number of Outer Gods.

“You’re going to make every possible theoretical world,” Yoshie said, as if ordering him.

“Every one of them, huh?”

It was a staggering concept to think about.

“Whatever is left at the end is what you want. View every possible world, and then choose the one you want.”

-- ACT 13: CH 3

And even if this were taken as worlds that concretely exist before Akuto creates them, there is still the problem that these possibilities are not infinite in number.

To understand this point, it is necessary to read the text in its original language, since J-Novel did not translate this part correctly.

In the original Japanese text, it is not directly established that the possibilities are infinite. Instead, it uses 無限ともいえる, which leans more toward “virtually infinite” or “could be called infinite,” with the obvious connotation that they are not truly infinite, but rather so numerous that they could be considered “infinite.”

RAW
例えば、「象が空を飛ぶ」「ヒトラーは西(せい)暦(れき)二〇〇〇年に巴(ぱ)里(り)を訪問した」というようなふたつの文章は、現実には有り得ないが、文法としては成り立つ。もし、象が飛行生物であったなら、もしヒトラーが死ななかったなら、現実としても成り立つ。それらをあり得たかも知れない世界として肯(こう)定(てい)していく。すると、世界には無限ともいえる可能性が含まれていることがわかる。それらは並行世界として無限に存在していると考えてもよい。

TL
For example, two sentences such as 'an elephant flies through the sky' and 'Hitler visited Paris in the year 2000 CE' cannot occur in reality, but they are grammatically valid. If elephants had been flying creatures, and if Hitler had not died, they would also be valid as reality. One affirms them as worlds that might have been possible. Then, it becomes clear that the world contains possibilities that could be called infinite. It may also be considered that they exist infinitely as parallel worlds.

-- ACT 13: CH 3

And this is supported by the way Akuto creates these possibilities in the first place.

While there is a belief that Akuto creates these possibilities through the combination of letters or words to form coherent sentences, the truth is that what Akuto actually does is take the scenarios (the space), and the characters (identities) of the story, making them interact in a multitude of different ways.

This is evident in the original language, where the katakana キャラクター is used, which refers to characters/personalities/identities within a story.

So, for obvious reasons, those “infinite possibilities” are not actually infinite, but simply an enormous number, unless you genuinely think there can be literally infinite interactions between a set of characters and a limited space.

Which, by the way, is impossible because time and space in DKD are not infinitely divisible, since if they were, the text openly says that Achilles and the tortoise paradox would become real. Which is logical, because across any distance in space or time, one would have to traverse an infinite number of points.

RAW
空間こそ有限であり、キャラクターこそ有限ではあるが、その組み合わせは無限となる。可能性を開く、ということは、概念としてだけでなく、実際に阿(あ)九(く)斗(と)の内にあったはずの世界の壁すら解放してしまったことを指す。

TL
Space itself is finite, and the characters themselves are finite, but their combinations become infinite. To 'open possibilities' refers not only to doing so as a concept, but to actually having released even the walls of the world that should have existed within Akuto.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

He repeated what the textbooks had told him.

"Time is relative. It's the same thing as space in which matter moves," he said. "As speed goes up, the space you can move to increases, and so does the probability that you'll encounter various events. But matter can only move in one direction. Expressed in two dimensions, it's like only being able to choose one point within an expanding ripple on a lake."

"That's more or less right. One thing cannot exist at multiple points in space at the same time. But here that law doesn't apply. That's why I was able to go back in time."

Boichiro picked up a branch and used it to draw a line on the ground.

"The reason that something can't exist in multiple places at once is that, in fact, time has a minimum unit size. If it could be infinitely divided, then the paradox of the tortoise and Achilles would be made real."

-- ACT 13: CH 1

Funnily enough, even the title of ACT 13 - Chapter 4, which J-Novel translates as “Infinite Universes,” is mistranslated, because the wording used is 無数の宇宙, which simply refers to a very large or countless amount. This supports everything I have written so far.

RAW
無数の宇宙

TL
Countless universes

-- ACT 13: CH 4

This also explains why it is said that, as Akuto kept simulating and advancing through possibilities, he was gaining more characters and scenarios to work with.

This part of the text would make absolutely no sense if Akuto could create all possible worlds from nothing by using "combinations of letters" (or stuff along that line), because in that case he would already have all possible information at his disposal.

As soon as the modern era arrived, they became exponentially more complex, because the machines and cities themselves became elements in the story. But what made things particularly difficult here were the elements brought in by the gods of outer space. Things that the Law of Identity lacked were there.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

And to top it all off, all of this is even narratively supported, because if Akuto really could create any possibility he wanted without restrictions, then what sense would it make for him to test thousands of stories across different scenarios without success in order to reach his goal?

That does not look in the slightest like the behavior of an omnipotent God. Rather, it seems that Akuto is storing information from the possibilities he tests so he can reuse it in new stories.

In other words, he cannot simply reach his ideal world instantly. He needs a process. And mind you, this is after the whole “chaos” nonsense the OP is arguing to be the collapse of all logical possibilities due to Akuto supposedly having created or encompassed all possible worlds.

No matter how you look at it, the OP’s interpretation makes no sense and requires assuming that Akuto is an idiot or something along those lines just to even make a little sense of it.

Hundreds of thousands of stories were tested, and all of them discarded.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

That was where Akuto gave up making stories. It had all started to seem pointless. The stories were all developing, but everything he made felt so... stupid. The only thing he seemed to want was a world where he could feel peace and comfort forever.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

So, in summary:

• There are no infinite possible worlds as actualities.
• There are no infinite possible worlds as potentialities.
• Akuto cannot manifest possible worlds without restrictions.

Argument #3: Bouichirou says that the past of living beings is infinitely dense.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:

"Since they have no bodies, there is no distinction between themselves and the outside world. And thus, they can contemplate infinity. I don’t mean infinity in the numerical sense — they can contemplate infinitely dense infinities. And this means that they can reach a place that would seem, to biological life, to be infinitely far back in the past. These gods without a body can reach back to the thoughts of single-celled organisms. The birth of life, and thus, the birth of thought. And it is thought itself that creates the universe. Once again, I don’t mean the objective universe. There’s a school of thought that says that if the world were born five minutes ago, and we were all implanted with fake memories, none of us would be able to prove it. But that’s only true if you have a body. It doesn’t apply to thought without a thinker. Essentially, the universe is real, and time only flows in one direction."

-- ACT 5: CH 3

While this argument seems to go against what is established in the last ACTs of the novel by showing that there is an “infinite past,” you have to keep in mind that “infinitely far back in the past” can perfectly be hyperbolic wording used to express a very long time.

Akuto went from the Void Universe to the world of stories in thousands of years (just like Hiroshi TLOI), so the idea that there is an infinite past is completely incoherent with everything, even ignoring my arguments from the first part of the response.

It had taken thousands of years to reach this point, and still stories hid themselves from mankind, he now believed.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

However, there is also an answer given by the author for this same scene, and it is that the guy forgot what he wrote in the first five ACTs. That is why the information from the early ACTs does not always line up with the final ACTs, like ACT 13. In other words, he retconned the information.

This is not something that unrealistic or absurd in context, because that novel was published over five years, from 2008 to 2013.

I thought it was infinite in mathematical set theory. Infinite density is also a computer-generated world. Sorry if my knowledge of set theory is incomplete and wrong. There may be some discrepancies between volume 5 and volume 13.

-- Scans

I have been sick since volume 11 and it took me years to get to volume 13. I have forgotten some of the concepts during that time.

-- Scans

Therefore, the most recent information is the one that should be taken into account, and that information is that there is no “infinite past,” as I demonstrated in the first part of this response.

---

Now, in this third part of the message, I am going to refute some loose arguments from the OP that serve as complements to the main point.

“Akuto destroyed the Afterlife, so he was not limited to that system when he released the possibilities.”

Quoting the OP:

Similar to how the nature of Afterlife was explicit, something that was more explicit was simply, there was no Afterlife to release the possibilities in. Akuto erased Afterlife prior to releasing all possibilities.

This is directly false, but even presupposing it were true, there is no evidence that Akuto “destroyed” the Afterlife BEFORE releasing the possibilities, so you cannot establish that causal relationship for no reason solely to support your agenda.

Anyway, none of the quotes the OP used demonstrate anything of the sort. Let’s go through them:

“So, the Demon King changed the whole afterlife?” Brave asked, putting a hand on his hip.

“It’s always getting changed. This time, however, he erased it.”

“Erased it? You mean he reset it and did it over?”

-- ACT 13: CH 3

“I see. Everyone died and was reborn... But at the hands of the Demon King.”

“Correct. The entire world was reconstructed in digital form. Just like the computer gods once tried to do.”

“So why delete it and start over? He’s practically a god. How is he not satisfied with the world he created?”

“We can guess at that from the statements he made. Because it was a world that had ended, but would continue for eternity,”

Boichiro said. “I know the feeling.

-- ACT 13: CH 3

These two statements are literally telling you that what Akuto did was reset the Afterlife. “Erased” is not literal in this case. What he did was alter its arrangement so he could manifest the worlds he had been testing during his stay in that world.

The OP tries to respond to this by claiming that what Akuto did was “reset his world” and not the Afterlife:

This "restart" might suggest that he is recreating the Afterlife, which is not the case. Akuto is reconstructing the entire world separately from TLOI's world, whilst the Afterlife is still erased. So was the reason for the sacrifice mentioned by Boichiro.

But this justification is nonsensical because the world of the Demon King IS the Afterlife. Like, the very two quotes he posted literally tell you that.

And on top of that, just as the statement above defines the world being reconstructed in “digital form,” Mizuki himself defines the Afterlife as the world of data/information, which clearly shows that while Akuto altered its structure by digitalizing it, it is still the same system.

“The afterlife is within the boundaries of her creation as well. And we can assume that it’s within the domain of the Demon King, too.”

-- ACT 13: CH 3

The first stage is the fictional world.The afterlife is a solipsistic world, which is probably only information. Finally, the beginning of our universe. It is the beginning of all possibilities.

-- Scans

And all of the above is basically confirmed in the novel itself when Akuto, upon creating the final world, explicitly says that he is “reconstructing” the Afterlife, which confirms that he never completely “erased” it like the OP wrote.

In other words, this means that the justification Blaze tried to give to “debunk” the previous thread that limited the “possible worlds” to the lower system of the Afterlife is completely false, and the problem still stands even if we ignore the entire previous debunk of the “infinite possibilities.”

“In other words, you’re going to write my story... and end it.”

“Yes.”

Akuto wasn’t sure what to think. This was an idea he’d never come up with.

“Is it okay for me to ask you that?”

He couldn’t predict what would happen, but he knew that if it worked, it would put him on a course for a true ending.

“It’s fine. It’s something only I can do, and anyway, killing you is my goal. And by doing that, I can save this world. That’s how it feels to me,” Hiroshi said softly.

Akuto stared him in the eyes for a moment, and then smiled.

“Alright. I’ll rebuild the afterlife then. You want me to strengthen the influence of the outer gods, and return the world to its pre-mana-civilization form, right?”

“That’s right. Maybe sometime in the 1990s?”

“I’ll try it. How it works... is up to you.” Akuto balled up the world in his hands again, and then let it spread out wide.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

And as the final nail in the coffin, even if we literally ignore EVERYTHING I have written so far and assume that Akuto, according to your argument, is not limited by literally any system (the prerequisite for High 1-A+), that would still be textually false, since God Universes Akuto, post-chaos and after the release of possibilities, explicitly says that there are entities above him.

(Which is also demonstrated by the elevated level of narrativization of his story.)

RAW
「だが、結局のところ外宇宙の神々とて虚構なんだ。ただ、自身では神、人類、幽霊の区別がつかないだけだ。上位者に教えてもらうことで、そして、ひとつの宇宙に囲いを作った時のみ、神、人類、幽霊は、はっきりと分かれる。誰の内部にあるのか理解できるようになるということだ」
望一郎の分(ぶん)析(せき)に、阿九斗は考え込んだ。
「さて……そうなると、僕はいかにして上位者に答えたらいいのか？ ということを改めて考えることになる。僕は僕の内部だけでなく、自同律の宇宙の、その全存在を救いたい。彼らを物語から解放したい。それが望みだ」

TL
'But, in the end, even the gods of the outer universes are fiction. It is just that they themselves cannot distinguish between gods, humanity, and ghosts. Only by being taught by a higher being, and only when an enclosure has been made around a single universe, do gods, humanity, and ghosts become clearly separated. It means becoming able to understand whose interior they are within.'

At Bouichirou's analysis, Akuto fell into deep thought.

'Now then... if that is the case, I will have to think once again about how I should answer the higher beings. I want to save not only what is within me, but all existence in the universe of the law of identity. I want to free them from the narrative. That is my wish.'

-- ACT 13: CH 4

RAW
「僕らは物語化されている度合いが強い？」
「我々は世界を虚(きよ)構(こう)のものと知っている。物語化されている度合いはかなりのものだ。そうは思わないか？」
望一郎の言葉は、阿九斗にも思い当たるところはあった。
外宇宙からの介(かい)入(にゆう)を受けたとおぼしき物語は、世界を虚構のものと捉(とら)えないことが中心となっていた。それは、確実に受肉した一回しかない生き方を前提とした物語だ。
「外を見て、はじめて自分のことがわかった気がする」
阿九斗はうなずいた。

TL
'Is the degree to which we have been narrativized high?'

'We know the world to be something fictional. The degree to which it has been narrativized is considerable. Do you not think so?'

Akuto, too, found something in Bouichirou's words that came to mind.

The story that seemed to have received intervention from the outer universe centered on not regarding the world as something fictional. It was a story premised on a way of living that had certainly taken flesh and existed only once.

'I feel like, by looking outside, I understood myself for the first time.'

Akuto nodded.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

Now, next point.

"Releasing of possibilities leads to a total annihilation of all the stories"

This is what the OP argues:

There is one major problem with this entire argument, Releasing off all possibilities and testing of stories are two different plot events. Releasing of possibilities leads to a total annihilation of all the stories, the "Chaos", which was followed by the process of Universe creation.

This part seriously pisses me off because there is not ANY statement about “the possibilities being annihilated.”

The reason "chaos" is mentioned is extremely simple, and it is something I already wrote in the old downgrade thread: when Akuto broke through his internal barriers, he allowed the Outer Gods to self-insert into his stories, increasing their narrative density.

This caused a bunch of protagonists to try to advance at the same time within a shared setting, which led to complete narrative chaos.

This is the equivalent of you defining a story and then having thousands upon thousands of protagonists in that same story all advancing at the same time. It is OBVIOUS that this would create a tremendous amount of chaos that makes the structure of the world stop making sense.

Until then, you could say that humanity shared a story. Everyone, essentially, was playing their own role in the story. That's why the world refused to allow anybody but Akuto to alter it.

But what happens if a story ceases to be shared?

The answer is: chaos.

The gods of the outer universe were, you could say, their own main characters, with their own main stories. So multiple protagonists tried to advance their own stories within the same place. It may have been chaos, but there was no conflict.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

And by the way, the act of releasing the possibilities is equivalent to creating new universes inside the God Universe. So, evidently, since Akuto does not have “infinite characters” on hand, as I already explained in the second part of this response, your interpretation that Akuto encompassed within his being all logically possible worlds is nonsense. What is actually happening is that Akuto tests worlds as he creates them.

It was the equivalent of giving birth to a new universe within himself.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

---

Summary

• There are no infinite Outer Gods, and consequently, there are no infinite Outer Universes.
• The timeline that makes up the causal events from the Void Universe to the formation of stories is not infinite.
• The “possible worlds” Yoshie mentions are potentialities that are not infinite in number.
• Akuto does not create possible worlds through permutations of language. He only alters the scenario and uses very limited information, namely fictional characters and narrative elements, to give shape to a new world.
• Akuto cannot create whatever possible worlds he wants, and he is limited to obtaining more information by testing new stories as they progress. His initial pool of information is textually limited, even with the new elements brought in by the Outer Gods when they self-insert into his stories.
• Since DKD’s world is not infinitely divisible spatially or temporally, it is not logically possible to create literally infinite variations of scenarios, even presupposing that Akuto possesses all the information from the beginning.
• Akuto never erased the Afterlife. He only reset it every time he created a new world to test. And there are entities above the domain of the Demon King, so even presupposing that none of the above existed, the system would still not be modally maximal.
• The “Chaos” is not referring to the annihilation of stories. It only refers to a narrative chaos where a countless number of characters do not follow a concrete role in the story and all try to advance as protagonists at the same time.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

No need to be so overly dramatic.

Oh wow, we're copying my responses? I'm no trendsetter, but aight, whatever floats your boat, champ.

We are Powerscalers, two people can have completely different interpretations of the same text, the very essence of the Powerscaling is debate on interpretations.

This is... no. You're just wrong here. I care a little less about the power scaling aspects of this. You're just wrong about Aristotelian metaphysics here, face it.

1- Go ahead and point out where I said it's High 1A+ and not literally "it does not scale anywhere" or "it's just a subject" and what is of relevance is the "significance", that is, how one involves and uses it in an argument.

You're not tracking again. I never said you said this is relevant; I said this is irrelevant. Also, you're lying, you said you can use Aristotelian categories as a justification for High 1-A+

I would say that I did not even scratch the surface of Philosophical complexity. I wanted to use Aristole's Categories to argue exhaustion of relations for High 1A+, but it would have been rather long for a single assertion, most of which would just be explaining the categories.

I quote "I wanted to use Aristotle's categories to argue exhaustion of relations for High 1-A", and you were just caught misusing the thing in which you were using, now you're back-paddling and saying you never tried to use this for High 1-A+

If you're taking Aristotelian metaphysics seriously, not some dreamed version by some power scaler. Then I'm telling you what you would be doing only amounts to 3-A, not even High 3-A because Aristotle doesn't even believe in the capacity for the actual infinite to be instantiated, lol.

No need to be pretentious, none of this philosophy shit is remotely relevant for any of this being High 1-A+.

it's literally a basic dictum in ontology that Being cannot be exhausted". Wait? Nothing more? It's the most significant claim here is one of the most significant question that almost every Metaphysician goes through, there is no way you can make a claim so significant not add anything over it.

You're only surprised again, because. You. Don't. Read. Philosophy. And even if you do, it's clearly not enough for you to be flaunting it in threads, and misusing it as grounds for a High 1-A+. Which, mind you, you're referencing philosophical models completely irrelevant to that tier.

You're only surprised again, because. You. Don't. Read. Philosophy. And even if you do, it's clearly not enough for you to be flaunting it in threads, and misusing it as grounds for a High 1-A+. Which, mind you, you're referencing philosophical models completely irrelevant to that tier.

I can tell that even if you read, it is extremely minimal. You literally cannot larp philosophy, because it requires a precise usage of verbiage. You're struggling in that department; that's why you say ridiculous things like 'the ten categories exhaust Being'

(a) The notion of being, spontaneously reached by the human mind, is found on reflection to be the simplest of all notions, defying every attempt at analysis into simpler notions.It is involved in every other concept which we form of any object of thought whatsoever. Without it we could have no concept of anything.

Being-as-such cannot be exhausted by itself because every reference of an existent and anything that can be conceived of having the possibility of existence is already closed under Being. You can only exhaust parts of Being, which leads us to the realm of So-being.

is one of the most significant question that almost every Metaphysician goes through, there is no way you can make a claim so significant not add anything over it.

Notice how none of this even corrects anything on part, you're just adding words hoping you can cling to this idea that you really do read these things. First of all, no, not every metaphysician historically deals with the relationship between Being-as-such and So-Being in the way that later thinkers (aside from Aristotle and a few others) do. Plato didn't. Plotinus didn't. Proclus didn't. Hegel didn't. Hegel re-formulated his understanding of Being for his account of phenomenology.

Do you even know why Being is a significant (not significant, btw, it's called a fundamental question by metaphysics)?

Not only that. On the basis of the Greeks' initial contributions towards an Interpretation of Being, a dogma has been developed which not only declares the question about the meaning of Being to be superfluous, but sanctions its complete neglect. It is said that 'Being' is the most universal and the emptiest of concepts. As such it resists every attempt at definition. Nor does this most universal and hence indefinable concept require any definition, for everyone uses it constantly and already understands what he means by it. In this way, that which - ancient philosophers found continually disturbing as something obscure and hidden has taken on a clarity and self-evidence such that if anyone continues to ask about it he is charged with an error of method.
Being and Time - Martin Heidegger

Is precisely because being itself cannot be exhausted that you can only define what already comes after it in logical order, not it.

substance is primary, and in this the simple one and an activity—oneness and simplicity are not the same, since unity signifies a measure, whereas simplicity signifies that the thing itself is a certain way.
- Metaphysics - Λ 7 by Aristotle

Outside of the ten categories is the Primary Being, which is completely individuated from all the ten categories because they are 'oneness' by measure and numerical identity, not 'oneness' as by way of its simplicity.

There is a science that gets a theoretical grasp on being qua being and of the [coincidents] belonging intrinsically to it.355 But this is not the same as any of the so-called special sciences, since none of these investigates being qua being in a universal way. Rather, each cuts off a part of being.
- Book Gamma (IV) Γ 1

And the ten categories of Being are a way to investigate Being as part, not Being as whole, accordingly, even for Aristotle. And notice how he says "cuts off a part of being" above:

It is evident from what has been said, then, that there is a substance that is eternal and immovable and separate from perceptible things. And it has also been shown that this substance cannot have any mag-nitude, but must be without parts and indivisible.
- Metaphysics - Λ 7 by Aristotle

Because it demonstrates how there's a fundamental ontological separation between all of those supposed categories of being from Being-itself. Because Being-itself is indivisible and without parts, you CANNOT exhaust being using categories that are part of our natural universe, literally the material world you're existing in right now. The only truly transcendent and absolutely immaterial things are just the Prime Mover, which is Being as universal.

So yes, for anyone who reads enough ontology, that is, this is a basic dictum. Even Hegel, who re-formulates the question of Being in phenomenology of spirit, takes it that pure being in itself cannot be exhausted through means of intelligibility alone, too:

However, this certainty in fact yields the most abstract and the very poorest truth. It expresses what it knows as this: It is; and its truth only contains the being of the item.2For its part, consciousness only is in this certainty as the pure I, or, within that certainty, the I is only as a pure This, and the object likewise is only as a pure This - Phenomenology of Spirit by Hegel - Consciousness

Suggesting that, sensory certainty is the poorest of truth for it simply expresses that the thing is without any other determinations, pure this and pure I.

What? Categories itself are irreducible as there's no genus more fundamental that can produce Categories themselves thorough a genus-differentia distinction. The reason why they are said to be "highest kind".

I don't care. The commentary you're citing only accounts for them being irreducible in Aristotelian metaphysics, where Aristotle thinks there are only substances immanent within our material and these fall under the ten categories. And a completely different substance, that is the Prime Mover, who's not part of the ten categories but beyond.

I already acknowledged them as irreducible. Track. What I was saying was they are not irreducible in a 'transcendent' sense. What are you disagreeing with? Do you disagree with me saying it's not in a transcendent sense? Because if you do, then you presumably think the immanent (literally present in some way within the material world) universal or genus of horse, is on par with transcendent universals like Platonic Forms because they are 'irreducible' and if so irreducible simpliciter. Is that what you're insinuating? Because if not, you either don't know what I'm talking about, so you keep responding with irrelevant things, or you do, which shows again that you don't know what you're talking about.

You're confused with thinking on different layers of abstractions, and it's exactly only a reflection of how you don't read enough.

Additionally, these Transcendents things would than be Universals(mental objects are rather irrelevant) similar to forms. Continue what I said above in the fourth point.

Forgive them, Aristotle, for power scalers do not know what they are doing. There are also many different types of universals, some of them aren't even 1-A, literally you can have a dyadic universal that is immanent in spatial relations, but is just 4D. Aristotelian universals are understood to be immanent in this way.

I quite frankly do not care about whether or not they are universals. Forms aren't universals, too; the contemporary theories of Platonic realism are less radical ontologically and deflated.

Misusing? I specifically said that QS and everything above it is subsumed under relations, something that would support the High 1A+. This is just unnecessary overextrapolation of one or two sentences.

That is not what High 1-A+ and not even supporting evidence for 1-A, let alone the former, this way of stratification applies to all tiers and levels of ontology.

I am referring to the "materialist" and "pragmatic" views you yourself mentioned as some sort of support for why Ontology is necessary for Possible High 1A+. Which doesn't make sense as Modal Realism is Realism. Lewis is materialist as far as his Philosophy of Mind is concerned, which as far as I know is completely irrelevant to his Modal Realism.

Yeah, because I think you don't know what you're talking about, with all due respect from a "civilised" knight in shining armour to his prince/princess, nobody cares about what you think so much as what scholars think. You're just a power scaler in a power scaling site. As much as I'm a power scaler in a power scaling site, citing actual scholars.

Lewis is materialist as far as his Philosophy of Mind is concerned, which as far as I know is completely irrelevant to his Modal Realism.

I don't care about what you think as far as you know, if this is your best response to literally any scholar saying those possible worlds are material:

Material reality is for Lewis much richer than we used to think. There exist dog- headed “men,” and chimeras and unicorns — but not in our world...possible worlds are concretely existing material objects, as they are on.
- Actuality, Possibility and Worlds

For although it is very plausible that a well- defined collection of substantial existing material objects such as Lewis’s possible worlds - Actuality, Possibility and Worlds

Possible worlds are concretely existing material objects, as they are on, Lewis’s account, then their collection is a set. - Actuality, Possibility and Worlds

Then I hate to break it to you, but I'll hold your hand anyway. You're not the centrepiece of philosophy, with all due respect from a civilised person again, you're not well read, and your grammar is bad, which is a telltale sign that you barely read philosophy.

Now, if you continue to resist, I'll just open David Lewis' book as well and grab citations of him committing to possible worlds being concrete. Don't do this to yourself. Again, just tell us how this is High 1-A+ without derailing to philosophical notions barely referenced in the thread. So spare us both the effort.

Which itself is insensible when the entire CRT is repeatedly commiting to Ontology.

Possible worlds being material is not disjunctive with ontological commitments; to say something is material is an ontological commitment. Only you think otherwise, and respond according to that misunderstanding, that's your problem, not mine.

You haven't addressed the many times I am referring to the ontological commitment yet are repeating the same thing. Why?

You keep responding with confused rebuttals; I'd think you don't even know what an ontological commitment is. We're arguing about this being tiered, but disagree about where it's tiered. The moment we start talking about tiers is when we inherently start talking about ontological commitments.

Just speak normally, my liege Blaze. You keep confusing yourself with words you don't know, and I'm saying this genuinely to help you. This is just.. Jesus. With all due respect, of course.

Uh. What? I think you should have actually read the CRT. No seriously, I specifically and many times referred to how the individuation and relational principle is necessary to the verse, without which the stories cannot be formed. Chaos happens as a consequence of exhaustion of relations while simultaneously breaking the principle of individual. Which again isn't so because Akuto is beyond them, it happens as a consequence of actualisation which itself was empowered and a necessity.

Listen....... Mmmmh........... I don't care.

You wanna know what? Relations and individuation are necessary principles of every verse! Good god, I wonder how long you are gonna keep mentioning the most bare minimum tier Low 2-C level ass philosophical verbiage as a basis for High 1-A+

Not only that, none of this responds to anything. Give me a rational response and not an emotional one.

You said:

The "other" argument is the exhaustion of all relations expressible. The entire Chaos section.

And I said:

I'll tell you this would be Tier 0. Your argument disagrees with taking that statement literally, because you clearly aren't arguing for Tier 0 through this. Yet simultaneously assumes that this statement is meant to be taken literally regarding High 1-A+? Cool why? Why High 1-A+? How many Low Tier 2s do you think that we can count on this wiki that are described as being beyond all things and creating (expression) all things (hence relations), yet are still Tier 2?

I'll let you figure that out yourself unless you want me to bring up the examples themselves.

Because if we're taking that statement seriously and say it is true literally, then the only tier that exhausts all relations is Tier 0. This is not a Tier 0 proposal; you agree that this argument implies something regarding exhausting all relations. To which, then, I said, given that, the argument by itself has no relevance to High 1-A+. Then concluded with a question and asked the question:

Now, given that we just got over your implicit disagreement with taking this statement literally (unless you want to argue Tier 0, the only tier that expresses all relations but is without), you can tell us explicitly why this statement would justify by itself High 1-A+

Which you dodged, but I got an implicit response from you unintentionally:

specifically and many times referred to how the individuation and relational principle is necessary to the verse

You said these are necessary to the verse, which tells me your constraints of that argument apply as far as the verse goes. Great! So now we're back to where the verse scales, since you agree they are necessary for the verse, but that doesn't imply it is necessary for High 1-A+, as I've explained how this applies to all tiers below, given that some tier inverse is the limit of the cosmology.

Do you see how easy it is for these arguments to collapse on themselves? It's like the universe is telling you this is not enough if you wouldn't listen to me, maybe listen to the voices and shit.

I already addressed this to Qawsedf234 here. It does seem to be the case that you are not reading either the CRT or the thread.

If you not addressing arguments is synonymous with not reading the thread then I don't mind the description honestly.

Insulting is the only way one can be toxic or uncivil? Do you consider the many ad hominems to be only relevant to toxicity? Why do you think they are referred to as fallacy of irrelevancy?

Ad hominem is attacking the person instead of the argument; it only works if the argument is not attacked. That's why it's "logically fallacious".

Attacking a person alone is not that, because attacking a person is not a logical expression unless it is not an act, but a second-order description. Not that I think I attacked you directly either. It goes both ways, as far as you're accusing me of ignorance.

Not really responding to the rest of the emotional tantrum, not my vibes, chubs. Nobody really cares about optics.

like the ontological commitment in DKD. Aren't you unnecessarily formatting my reply by removing the context?

These two clauses put together are a summary of this thread, confusion on my arguments and confusion on the very words the op uses. Wow, man, I did not know ontologically committing to something is grounds for a high-tier scaling. Saying this with all due respect, of course.

Gassssppp, that means when I ontologically commit to materialism, I'll buff materialism to High 1-A+ and do what no philosopher has done.

Blessings upon thee!

Yes, DT said he would make a CRT for High1A+, but you were faster than him.

I'm very curious how DT is gonna justify this, so now I'll be participating in his thread whenever it is created. This looks like an egregious wank to me.

Now, all jokes aside. Now the thread has been derailed into me just correcting Blaze and arguing about philosophy. You know, isn't it easier to just tell us how any of this is High 1-A+ and stop beating around the bush by hiding behind philosophy? This is bad practice and an extremely unhealthy way to engage with philosophy. I mean... I guess it's not that easy for DKD, though, referencing irrelevant philosophical systems seems to be the last evidence to support the lack thereof in the novel, huh.

But I doubt people participating in this thread are here to see that, just tell us how this is High 1-A+ without derailing into things you don't know.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

Question. Is using Author's statement okay for downplaying the verse but not upgrading it? Why are MTL more significant than actual human translation especially for Japan where the words of meaning chage significantly in context?

The issue with this is that the novel never, and I repeat, NEVER, directly states that the Outer Gods are infinite in number. When the God Universes appear before Akuto and Bouichirou in ACT 13, no number is ever mentioned per se, so there is no concrete way to assign a value to the number of Gods that exist. The scene itself is considerably vague in that regard.

This is the relevant text:

Bouichirou states that the birth of a universe is, technically, equivalent to the birth of a story, and at the same time, a universe itself is a collection of stories.

Because of this mechanism, which is strangely similar to the typical multiversal model that operates through branches of possibility, where each individual possibility likewise gives rise to the existence of a multitude of different possibilities, there can be "any number" of those entities (this strongly implies that the number of "outer universes" is equivalent to the number of "Outer Gods" by mere correlation).

In the original Japanese, the expression used to indicate quantity is いくらでも, which refers, usually hyperbolically, to an immense but finite amount of something

This even in the offical translation is "any number of being", never was it said to infinite, nor has been used in the CRT.

And this is not something I am saying just to try to downplay this verse, but something Mizuki himself (the author) clarifies twice to fans who ask him questions on Twitter/X. And it is funny because, unlike other statements where it is obvious that Mizuki does not understand the questions, this time the guy answers directly, flatly denying that there are infinite Outer Gods.

If it isn't clear by the text itself, Author refers to Outer Gods as "counted in real number" which is considered to be Alpeh-1 in the wiki.

BUT this was something I mentioned even in the previous CRT. Author later on directly states their being infinite numbers of them.

In the novel, the birth of the universe is "You!" It is a wonder that the ego can recognize the other. If the ego could count, it would be infinite. It seems to be a worldview that cannot affirm a mathematical universe. Not in my opinion, but in the worldview of the novel.
~ @S_Mizuki

In solipsism, the only thing that perceives the universe is oneself. However, solipsism does not deny the existence of others.
~ @S_Mizuki
Would it be easier to say that each individual is in a state of having his or her own universe? Individuals in it are all human beings from the past to the future.
~ @S_Mizuki
Are you talking about individuals/ghosts in archetypal gods?. because the archetypal akuto also contains an infinite number of individuals/souls within him. Individuals exist as different concepts.
~ @Siperri1
It refers to the number of gods that Akuto witnessed. It can be the ghosts that the archetypal god encompasses.
~ @S_Mizuki

This is far more significant as it's something that Mizuki directly speaks about the story in regards to his philosophy.

Additionally, the tweet used by Berny are way before (2021) Novel gets an official translation.

And this should be obvious even contextually. DKD’s cosmology does not work like MWI or anything similar, where the wave function does not collapse and therefore all the endless possibilities have concrete existence from the beginning, rather than being mere abstractions.

Completely irrelevant.

Instead, the verse openly tells you that the process of 'world' creation, from its beginnings in the Void Universe up to the Gravity Universe (where beings already possess individuality and start developing stories), takes thousands of years. This means it is openly and normally causally progressive, not infinite from its inception, which also disproves the idea that the timeline stretching back to the beginning of all stories is infinite/eternal.

In other words, if the process of creating stories depends on time, finite time is needed to develop stories, and an infinite amount of time has not passed from the Void Universe to the formation of the God Universes, the only logical conclusion is that the God Universes are NOT infinite, and consequently, neither are the universes.

What? What logical conclusion? Where are the premises? What even is the connection between these sentences? Are you building it up on previous subconclusion with some unstated premise that there are only finite amount of Outer Gods? Otherwise this argument is incoherent.

Additionally, it's very much factually known that there are still steps between Akuto's Universe and Anti-gravity Universe. Thus the generalisation very much is invalid when the past is strictly called infinite. Logically contradictory when one of your premises also assume the contradiction that the past is finite. And I would address the argument later on.

“I guess the universe I know is really close. Is that all the universes, then?” Akuto asked. And the outer gods said no.
~ Demon King Daimao, Vol14 ch4

Now then, despite everything shown, and despite the fact that the author himself directly establishes that the Outer Gods are not infinite, the OP tries to provide evidence to support the idea that the Outer Gods and possibilities are infinite, so I will now respond to those arguments one by one:

Argument #1: Bouichirou said that the universes are infinite.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:



The problem with this argument is that it conveniently ignores two facts. The first is that Bouichirou has no way of knowing whether there are infinite Outer Universes or not, since he has never traveled to all of them. The second is that the phrase itself uses “probably,” which denotes that it is simply a theory.

And we already know that both the narrative itself and the author debunk that theory, so using this as evidence is completely invalid.

As if that were not enough, the original japanese version does not even say “infinite.” Instead, it uses the kanji 無数, meaning “countless,” which in this context means a very large number.

Why not use more than one dictionary? Romanjidesu, wordhippo, context reverso, defines 無数 as infinite, countless or innumerable. And the wikitnory expresses it more clearly by referring that as a noun it can refer to either countless number or infinite number.

Argument #2: Yoshie said that there are infinite parallel possible worlds.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:



There are multiple problems with this.

To begin with, Yoshie is talking about potentialities, not actualities. The purpose she gives Akuto in that scene is to actualize all theoretical possible worlds into reality, so if those possibilities need to be actualized first, then they are not something that concretely exists.

Therefore, you cannot use the number of these kinds of possibilities to argue that they are equivalent to the number of Outer Gods.



And even if this were taken as worlds that concretely exist before Akuto creates them, there is still the problem that these possibilities are not infinite in number.

To understand this point, it is necessary to read the text in its original language, since J-Novel did not translate this part correctly.

In the original Japanese text, it is not directly established that the possibilities are infinite. Instead, it uses 無限ともいえる, which leans more toward “virtually infinite” or “could be called infinite,” with the obvious connotation that they are not truly infinite, but rather so numerous that they could be considered “infinite.”

This is very much dishonest when the translations you are using also follow through it with "infinite parallel worlds" suggesting that there truly are infinite possibilities. Which yes even by actual translation refers to proper infinity.

But why is this even relevant here? I did not use Afterlife to justify infinite possibilities. But anyways, thnx for justifying it further.

And this is supported by the way Akuto creates these possibilities in the first place.

While there is a belief that Akuto creates these possibilities through the combination of letters or words to form coherent sentences, the truth is that what Akuto actually does is take the scenarios (the space), and the characters (identities) of the story, making them interact in a multitude of different ways.

This is evident in the original language, where the katakana キャラクター is used, which refers to characters/personalities/identities within a story.

The dictionary your are using also refers to it as characters in computing, or letter in alphabet. You can use other dictionaries too, some would be much direct referring to it as symbols some don't. In context the sentence "their combinations are infinite" does not make any gramtical sense with personalities or Identities, but it very well does when understood as a letter in alphabet.

So, for obvious reasons, those “infinite possibilities” are not actually infinite, but simply an enormous number, unless you genuinely think there can be literally infinite interactions between a set of characters and a limited space.

Again why are you repeatedly ignoring the more very direct quote about infinite possibilities? Why are you suggesting the writer is incompetent in basic wording but then use him as central authority for whenever the downgrade is justified?

Which, by the way, is impossible because time and space in DKD are not infinitely divisible, since if they were, the text openly says that Achilles and the tortoise paradox would become real. Which is logical, because across any distance in space or time, one would have to traverse an infinite number of points.

The dishonesty knows no bound. Add the context, the Afterlife is directly stated to not follow this logic and hence has infinite time which itself allows this paradox to work.

“I can understand that. But what does that have to do with it being possible to go back in time? Doesn’t that make it so going back in time is impossible?”
“Correct. In the model with the rippling lake, the other points on the circle are just probabilities. In other words, they might have happened, but they didn’t. Even if matter returns to the point it was in before, the other matter is no longer there. But the world that we know is not like the lake.”
He erased the line with his foot, and drew another.
“This world is, according to standard physics, impossible. This world is like a video, or a book. It’s linear.”
~ Demon King Daimao, Vol 13 ch1

Additionally, try to reason what is meant here. Zeno's paradox is a paradox for it cannot occur in reality but does by our current standards of theory. In addition, the only thing that can be extrapolated is that their is smallest unit of time which doesn't allow for time travel, it's completely unknown as to what is the smallest unit of time. This is lapse of basic Logical reasoning.

Funnily enough, even the title of ACT 13 - Chapter 4, which J-Novel translates as “Infinite Universes,” is mistranslated, because the wording used is 無数の宇宙, which simply refers to a very large or countless amount. This supports everything I have written so far.

Irrelevant, it was never used in the CRT.

This also explains why it is said that, as Akuto kept simulating and advancing through possibilities, he was gaining more characters and scenarios to work with.

This part of the text would make absolutely no sense if Akuto could create all possible worlds from nothing by using "combinations of letters" (or stuff along that line), because in that case he would already have all possible information at his disposal.

As soon as the modern era arrived, they became exponentially more complex, because the machines and cities themselves became elements in the story. But what made things particularly difficult here were the elements brought in by the gods of outer space. Things that the Law of Identity lacked were there.
-- ACT 13: CH 4

Again, I cannot stress enough on how badly the context is butchered and how factually wrong some premises are. I specifically mentioned that these two are seperate events even in the CRT. This quote itself is when Akuto individually tests Outer Gods.

1- "This also explains why it is said that, as Akuto kept simulating and advancing through possibilities, he was gaining more characters and scenarios to work with." Literally nothing as such thing is said. The very moment Akuto destroys his being he subsumes all Outer Gods inside him, and releases all possibilities. Heck this quote used here occurs proper to even the individual testing of stories starts, and he already had all the Outer Gods and elements brought by them subsumed inside his being.

As soon as the modern era arrived, they became exponentially more complex, because the machines and cities themselves became elements in the story. But what made things particularly difficult here were the elements brought in by the gods of outer space. Things that the Law of Identity lacked were there.
-- ACT 13: CH 4

2- "because in that case he would already have all possible information at his disposal."

And to top it all off, all of this is even narratively supported, because if Akuto really could create any possibility he wanted without restrictions, then what sense would it make for him to test thousands of stories across different scenarios without success in order to reach his goal?

Because he rejected the ritual as a solution completely? He himself limited his testing of stories to not involve TLOI as he perceived Kiana to be sleeping.

I would ask a question to you using this specific quote, and I would stress at it again, it's after Akuto tested hundreds of thounsands of stories and thus visitor is Hiroshi and Boichiro.

An infinite flat plane. Akuto summoned a visitor into that space. There were very few personalities outside his influence now. And only one who could give him advice.

~Demon King Daimao, Vol 13, ch4

Why is it case that after testing all these stories were Hiroshi and Boichiro outside his influence? Which according to you should be involved here.
Why is it the case that there were only "few personalities outside his influence" and not many?
Why is it the case that all Outer Gods were subsumed under Akuto when there were many many stories left off?
I would add this quote just prior to the quote you used here in regards to the third question, and additionally support the existence of infinite possibilities.

To recognize reality, stories are needed. And this is because relationships with others are born here. But recreating all those possible stories took Akuto what amounted to an infinite span of time. Because, of course, he needed to test every story. But even so, the stories instantly became more complicated.
~Demon King Daimao, Vol13, ch4

Even in the raw it refers to infinite span of time, this objectively referring to infinite stories and possibilities. Now again why did he subsume all Outer Gods when he only went through hundreds of thounsands stories?

Under my interpretation the answer to this rather simple, just separating these events, releasing of all possibilities result in infinite possibilities and as a result subsuming all Outer Gods into himself but which led to chaos. It's then followed by recreating the Universe back and Akuto Individually testing each story as he only assumes the beings not the possibilities itself as mentioned here.

“In this state, I can really understand the fact that a personality is something that can’t be truly understood by another person. If another person’s responses were actually mechanical, we wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. Perhaps the infinite personalities that exist inside us right now are actually that.”
~Demon King Daimao, Vol 14 ch4

While furthermore this Akuto is limited by his own personality and perception and doesn't involve TLOI due to such, as is necessary for the ritual, which as mentioned by Hiroshi is the case because he assumes that Kiana is sleeping.

Looking back at the way this world was created, it was clear that the Law of Identity must be hiding, unseen by the Demon King. The Demon King was omnipresent in this world, but without the characters’ identities, that is, in the mathematical sense, unless the characters were themselves, the stories couldn’t exist.
But the Demon King had failed to find the Law of Identity in this world. Most likely, this was because of his preconceived notion that Keena was asleep.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch5

Repeating again, this Akuto is only testing the stories

That does not look in the slightest like the behavior of an omnipotent God. Rather, it seems that Akuto is storing information from the possibilities he tests so he can reuse it in new stories.

At no point in the novel does suggest "Akuto is storing information".

In other words, he cannot simply reach his ideal world instantly. He needs a process. And mind you, this is after the whole “chaos” nonsense the OP is arguing to be the collapse of all logical possibilities due to Akuto supposedly having created or encompassed all possible worlds.

No matter how you look at it, the OP’s interpretation makes no sense and requires assuming that Akuto is an idiot or something along those lines just to even make a little sense of it.

Addressed these above.

Repeating it again. Releasing of possibilities results in chaos. Which is then followed by Recreating world from the scratch. Which is then followed by Individual testing of stories by Akuto. The beings that are outside his influence are solely due to his own conception and personality.

So, in summary:

• There are no infinite possible worlds as actualities.
• There are no infinite possible worlds as potentialities.
• Akuto cannot manifest possible worlds without restrictions.

Argument #3: Bouichirou says that the past of living beings is infinitely dense.

The excerpt used to support this is the following:



While this argument seems to go against what is established in the last ACTs of the novel by showing that there is an “infinite past,” you have to keep in mind that “infinitely far back in the past” can perfectly be hyperbolic wording used to express a very long time.

Akuto went from the Void Universe to the world of stories in thousands of years (just like Hiroshi TLOI), so the idea that there is an infinite past is completely incoherent with everything, even ignoring my arguments from the first part of the response. However, there is also an answer given by the author for this same scene, and it is that the guy forgot what he wrote in the first five ACTs. That is why the information from the early ACTs does not always line up with the final ACTs, like ACT 13. In other words, he retconned the information.

This is not something that unrealistic or absurd in context, because that novel was published over five years, from 2008 to 2013.

Therefore, the most recent information is the one that should be taken into account, and that information is that there is no “infinite past,” as I demonstrated in the first part of this response.

Why? Why would you twist the words to fit your agenda. Even ignoring how I already mentioned the multiple steps still available between them, the fan mistook Computer Gods complementing infinities with infinite story Density. Mizuki states that the CGs complement infinitely dense infinity refers to set theory and but the use of Story density in that way made him think that he made some mistake when writing story density in Vol13, and then said their might be some discrepancies between the two volumes.(especially when the other question prior to this was about Anti-universe which is related to story Density and not set theory.) It's nothing whatever you are trying to do with it.

In book 5, chapter 3, there is a mention of a computer god who thinks about the concept of infinity. Is that set theory in math or beyond it?
those infinite densities are fictional characters, dimensions, and worlds that the computer gods convert into data in the universe right?
~@Siperri1
I thought it was infinite in mathematical set theory. Infinite density is also a computer-generated world. Sorry if my knowledge of set theory is incomplete and wrong. There may be some discrepancies between volume 5 and volume
[email protected]

Even then this doesn't have anything to do with the argument that the data amounts to aleph-omega in a single story.

Now, in this third part of the message, I am going to refute some loose arguments from the OP that serve as complements to the main point.

Before starting this? Where are half of the questions put forth as arguments? Why is only the erasure of Afterlife being argued against when the limitation of possibilities was questioned on multiple basis?

“Akuto destroyed the Afterlife, so he was not limited to that system when he released the possibilities.”

Quoting the OP:



This is directly false, but even presupposing it were true, there is no evidence that Akuto “destroyed” the Afterlife BEFORE releasing the possibilities, so you cannot establish that causal relationship for no reason solely to support your agenda.

Anyway, none of the quotes the OP used demonstrate anything of the sort. Let’s go through them:

These two statements are literally telling you that what Akuto did was reset the Afterlife. “Erased” is not literal in this case. What he did was alter its arrangement so he could manifest the worlds he had been testing during his stay in that world.

Again go ahead and tell me where is it written that Akuto "alter its arrangement"?

But before it's done, let me tell you this.

“This is the moment the world is reconstructed. Each time you changed the past, I was able to sense a smaller version of this. I don’t think anyone else did, though,” Boichiro explained. “Which means the change...”
“Of course. It was caused by the Demon King. Boot up your suit. We’re leaving.”
“Leaving?” Brave asked, but as he did, he activated the suit’s time travel device. He adjusted the settings so that when he jumped, Boichiro would jump with him.
“We’re going to disappear from this space. In this moment, the Demon King is in complete control of the afterlife. We’re going to make it so we’re not a part of that.”
“You can tell me the details later.” Brave jumped to a time he’d never gone to before.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13, ch3

The reconfiguration or reconstruction happenes everytime, this is related to the the nature of Afterlife, that is, a world made of data where changing the configuration of the matter/data affects the world itself. This reconfiguration is a completely different things from erasure or reset.

You are merely commiting equivocation between "reset" and "reconfiguration/reconstruction". They are separate things and I referred to reset of the world as to signify that the reset means the entire world is recreated but into Akuto's Universe.

Additionally, the "erasure" was already suggested by the fact that previously Akuto did try to erase the Afterlife which could have resulted into a suicide though he was stopped by Keena.

This was suicide. If you destroyed space itself in a world where you couldn’t die, would everything turn to nothing? The look on Akuto’s face seemed to say to her that he was ready to find out. He was just quietly and calmly closing his fist. Fujiko grabbed his open hand. The ground swelled up like it was being sucked up into the air. The seas surged into the city like a tidal wave. Buildings shattered and people began to float up to the sky. The whole Earth was under tremendous pressure, like it had
suddenly been submerged miles below the sea. It was an end to the world that no one had ever anticipated.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch3

The OP tries to respond to this by claiming that what Akuto did was “reset his world” and not the Afterlife:



But this justification is nonsensical because the world of the Demon King IS the Afterlife. Like, the very two quotes he posted literally tell you that.

Afterlife exists within Akuto as a world of imagination, just like any other story is subjective world which also exists within him. I justified what I meant, and just to reiterate, you are interpreting my argument through the equivocation.
To explain my stance the simplest way possible.

“The Demon King is going to start the story over and over again, and see what he can learn. Using the people who went to the afterlife as characters.” There was no doubt in Boichiro’s voice.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch3

Akuto would be restarting his story again and again(individual testing of story). Not reconfigure Afterlife, as explained that's different from restarting it. To do so as Akuto would have to erase the world as stated by Hiroshi and Boichiro. It's when the Afterlife was erased that Akuto releases all possibilities before individually testing the story, which results into Chaos. It's after the world was reconstructed that Akuto goes agains and again through different stories.

And on top of that, just as the statement above defines the world being reconstructed in “digital form,” Mizuki himself defines the Afterlife as the world of data/information, which clearly shows that while Akuto altered its structure by digitalizing it, it is still the same system.

I might be blind because there's nothing clear here.

And all of the above is basically confirmed in the novel itself when Akuto, upon creating the final world, explicitly says that he is “reconstructing” the Afterlife, which confirms that he never completely “erased” it like the OP wrote.

I have said this many times, explain how a story without any outside is being influenced by the Outer Gods that are outside it?

“Alright. I’ll rebuild the afterlife then. You want me to strengthen the influence of the outer gods, and return the world to its pre-mana-civilization form, right?”

~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch4

In other words, this means that the justification Blaze tried to give to “debunk” the previous thread that limited the “possible worlds” to the lower system of the Afterlife is completely false, and the problem still stands even if we ignore the entire previous debunk of the “infinite possibilities.”

This wasn't even the sole argument. There are multiple issues with the downgrade which you haven't addressed, heck you haven't even addressed the issues just with Afterlife itself.

And as the final nail in the coffin, even if we literally ignore EVERYTHING I have written so far and assume that Akuto, according to your argument, is not limited by literally any system (the prerequisite for High 1-A+), that would still be textually false, since God Universes Akuto, post-chaos and after the release of possibilities, explicitly says that there are entities above him.

Huh? That is TLOI? The higher power that is involved in all the stories as necessary principle?

Who did you think was Hiroshi talking with in chapter 5, "the end of all stories" which was just him accepting his role as the new TLOI.

(Which is also demonstrated by the elevated level of narrativization of his story.)
Now, next point.

Lol what? Did you ignore the explanation of Story Density? Level of "narrativization", was referring to Story density with their story being the highest as they were the only one whose story is dense enough to express the fictional nature of the world.

"Releasing of possibilities leads to a total annihilation of all the stories"

This is what the OP argues:

This part seriously pisses me off because there is not ANY statement about “the possibilities being annihilated.”

The Central structure of the story is annihilated? Who said possibilities are annihilated?

The reason "chaos" is mentioned is extremely simple, and it is something I already wrote in the old downgrade thread: when Akuto broke through his internal barriers, he allowed the Outer Gods to self-insert into his stories, increasing their narrative density.

This caused a bunch of protagonists to try to advance at the same time within a shared setting, which led to complete narrative chaos.

This is the equivalent of you defining a story and then having thousands upon thousands of protagonists in that same story all advancing at the same time. It is OBVIOUS that this would create a tremendous amount of chaos that makes the structure of the world stop making sense.

I am pretty sure it's easier understood that by chaos I am referring to "annihilation of stories" due to the exhaustion of all relations between the subjects of predication to such an extent that all beings loose the shared story as a whole, collapsing the very structure as a necessity for individuation.

It's the ceasing to share a story that results in the chaos, and why many protagonists

What does it mean when a story turns into chaos? You can find the answer within one of our oldest stories: “The Tower of Babel.”
Until then, you could say that humanity shared a story. Everyone, essentially, was playing their own role in the story. That’s why the world refused to allow anybody but Akuto to alter it.
But what happens if a story ceases to be shared?
The answer is: chaos.
The gods of the outer universe were, you could say, their own main characters, with their own main stories. So multiple protagonists tried to advance their own stories within the same place. It may have been chaos, but there was no conflict.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch4

With shared words, but no shared stories, no relationships could be born. It was impossible for someone to be an enemy or a friend, of course, but they couldn’t be a stranger either. Infinite possibilities made stories impotent.
~Demon King Daimao Vol 13 ch4

And by the way, the act of releasing the possibilities is equivalent to creating new universes inside the God Universe. So, evidently, since Akuto does not have “infinite characters” on hand, as I already explained in the second part of this response, your interpretation that Akuto encompassed within his being all logically possible worlds is nonsense. What is actually happening is that Akuto tests worlds as he creates them.

Which as I explained this interpretation doesn't work by any means.

Summary

• There are no infinite Outer Gods, and consequently, there are no infinite Outer Universes.
• The timeline that makes up the causal events from the Void Universe to the formation of stories is not infinite.
• The “possible worlds” Yoshie mentions are potentialities that are not infinite in number.
• Akuto does not create possible worlds through permutations of language. He only alters the scenario and uses very limited information, namely fictional characters and narrative elements, to give shape to a new world.
• Akuto cannot create whatever possible worlds he wants, and he is limited to obtaining more information by testing new stories as they progress. His initial pool of information is textually limited, even with the new elements brought in by the Outer Gods when they self-insert into his stories.
• Since DKD’s world is not infinitely divisible spatially or temporally, it is not logically possible to create literally infinite variations of scenarios, even presupposing that Akuto possesses all the information from the beginning.
• Akuto never erased the Afterlife. He only reset it every time he created a new world to test. And there are entities above the domain of the Demon King, so even presupposing that none of the above existed, the system would still not be modally maximal.
• The “Chaos” is not referring to the annihilation of stories. It only refers to a narrative chaos where a countless number of characters do not follow a concrete role in the story and all try to advance as protagonists at the same time.

I don't think there is a need to summarise this. Even ignoring the dishonesty to fit the agenda, most of the arguments are easily refuted. Additionally, there's a good chunk of arguments that were not addressed which shouldn't have been issue considered there are multiple paragraphs worth of arguments that were not originally relevant.

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

When it comes to translations, I think what Berny brought up in her interpretation is missing some of the broader context of the passage and possible worlds as a whole as they are treated.

The “possible worlds” idea isn’t just about grammar, IMO. It’s using grammatical examples to illustrate logically possible scenarios. The actual scope and topic being discussed is all logically conceivable worlds, not just sentences. (Since it's also what Akuto believes to be possible too; so nitpicking the core idea of all logically conceivable worlds on semantics is kind of weird)

It’s kind of true that earlier phrasing like 無限ともいえる (“could be called infinite”) is somewhat softened, so it’s not presenting a strict mathematical claim. However that doesn’t say or imply the possibilities are finite. It could be a way Japanese softens philosophical statements, so I guess you can say it's meant colloquially is what I'm getting at. (though, I'm not an expert on Japanese so it'd be best to ask for those who speak Japanese to provide translations even though I believe the official ones are well translated and this will go down to semantics otherwise.)

However, more importantly, later on the text becomes more explicit. It states that while space and characters are finite, their combinations become infinite (組み合わせは無限となる), and that opening all possibilities results in universes given birth. (Almost like Akuto can write/create any world he wants, and at first this causes a mess, and then he goes into looking through them in a controlled manner.)

Together the passage describes a system where finite elements produce infinite combinations, and once all possibilities are opened, these are realized as worlds. In context, the possibilities are treated as infinite, not finite or meaningfully limited.

There are many things also wrong here just from skimming but I'm overall neutral on the High 1-A+ stuff as I said earlier so I'll try to limit my responses.

 

[Vesxpura]

agree

 

[Mbpoops]

The “possible worlds” idea isn’t just about grammar, IMO.

oh ok

 

[ArgentDragonPluto]

oh ok

Okay

 

[Qawsedf234]

For now lost me as disagreeing with the upgrade. I don't see a reasonable cause, as argued by the OP, for High 1-A+.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

If it isn't clear by the text itself, Author refers to Outer Gods as "counted in real number" which is considered to be Alpeh-1 in the wiki.

No, he isn't.

Answer
Extra-universal gods cannot be counted in real numbers(They are mixed), but I don't think they are infinite.

He says they cannot be counted in real numbers. Even if we assume he says they are counted in real numbers, the whole number 1 and another 2, can in real numbers, does that mean the numbers 2 and 1 are infinite? That's not how infinity works, mathematically speaking. This is tantamount to a toddler basically saying, "if there's an infinity between the unit interval [0, 1] then the whole number 1 is infinite in number"

Fallacious, infinity should be treated more intricately than whatever you're doing.

Question. Is using Author's statement okay for downplaying the verse but not upgrading it?

Not when the author is clearly being pushed to answer things he doesn't understand, or know anything about it.

BUT this was something I mentioned even in the previous CRT. Author later on directly states their being infinite numbers of them.

Huh?

In the novel, the birth of the universe is "You!" It is a wonder that the ego can recognize the other. If the ego could count, it would be infinite. It seems to be a worldview that cannot affirm a mathematical universe. Not in my opinion, but in the worldview of the novel.
~ @S_Mizuki

Which part of this says they are infinite in number? Infinity as an extensional predicate is qualifying something different to "their number". The bigger question is, "If the ego could count what?" Disambiguate that under your interpretation, because otherwise, this is a leap in logic.

This is far more significant as it's something that Mizuki directly speaks about the story in regards to his philosophy.

The last part has no explanation from Mizuki of them being infinite; it's just somebody saying they are, but Mizuki doesn't affirm that himself. I don't see why we would take the additional step to assume otherwise when your evidence is that shaky. Especially considering that this is the same writer who said they are not infinite. You're grasping at straws here. Even if he said that a year ago, people's minds don't change about their work in a year. I quite frankly think if this were as clear as you made it out to be, the evidence and your argument would be more compelling than they are. But herein it's the latter than the former.

Thus the generalisation very much is invalid when the past is strictly called infinite. Logically contradictory when one of your premises also assume the contradiction that the past is finite. And I would address the argument later on.

Your concern should be logical consistency as much as the alignment with the source material. Because if we are to take this seriously and ignore the source material. Then the past itself being infinite is logically contradictory, if the past is infinite, then the present and future are either finite or infinite. If the aforementioned two are infinite, then the past is not infinite by itself, but expands endlessly towards the future.

But within that expansion, there would be a discrete and finite number of events.

Again why are you repeatedly ignoring the more very direct quote about infinite possibilities?

Oh, brother, it's not rocket science. She's just saying the raws suggest that it is virtually infinite (potential infinity), not actually infinite. Potential infinity is also infinite; saying "the apples were (potentially) infinite" doesn't change the morphological structure of the sentence, just the meaning. Since both potential and actual types of infinity are ultimately just infinity. So you can x is infinite, and it can be true that that which is infinite is potentially infinite, there's no contradiction here, just track. And to say she's ignoring what the statement says is different from disagreeing with the meaning of the statement.

Because identity in how a sentence is expression different from identity in the meaning of the expression.

Why are you suggesting the writer is incompetent in basic wording but then use him as central authority for whenever the downgrade is justified?

Well, if you were concerned by the competential integrity of the author, I feel like you wouldn't with him saying in 2021 that outer gods are not infinite in number, explicitly saying countless≠infinity:

Answer
It's a mess caused by translation. countless ≠ infinite. means many

Because arguing that the guy just changed his mind after those years is a jab at his competency. Also, why are you so offended at the idea that infinite can just be countless? It doesn't seem like the author is a stranger to expressing infinity as just potential infinity (countlessness).

Why not use more than one dictionary? Romanjidesu, wordhippo, context reverso, defines 無数 as infinite, countless or innumerable. And the wikitnory expresses it more clearly by referring that as a noun it can refer to either countless number or infinite number.

Obviously, because countless is a synonym for infinity, but [actual] infinity is not a synonym of countless. You're attempting to force your notions when, if you took the time researching in depth into those websites, I'm sure you'd have known by now the perfect case for infinity is either by description or Mugen; Musu is simply things x that are in many or countless but finite in nature. If you don't take me for my word, I have a bunch of Japanese friends, too, and we can ask them about it.

The dishonesty knows no bound. Add the context, the Afterlife is directly stated to not follow this logic and hence has infinite time which itself allows this paradox to work.

So first of all, you pretend that you care about the reputation for the author's competency, but turn back to just arbitrarily pick and choose which statement you want to use for this wank?

"The reason that something can't exist in multiple places at once is that, in fact, time has a minimum unit size. If it could be infinitely divided, then the paradox of the tortoise and Achilles would be made real."

-- ACT 13: CH 1

How do you genuinely see this and go "NOOOOOOOO that is falseeeeee you're so disingenuous!" Is this from a novel that Mizuki didn't write? Was it his assistant who wrote this?

Additionally, try to reason what is meant here.

Try to reason what is meant≠by agreeing with wank.

Zeno's paradox is a paradox for it cannot occur in reality but does by our current standards of theory.

Zeno's paradox is not metaphysically impossible; it holds, but it was just based on a misunderstanding of how infinite functioned in relation to geometry.

In addition, the only thing that can be extrapolated is that their is smallest unit of time which doesn't allow for time travel, it's completely unknown as to what is the smallest unit of time.

So time is not continuous but discrete, finite and you don't have an actual response to that? Got it.

Again, I cannot stress enough on how badly the context is butchered and how factually wrong some premises are. I specifically mentioned that these two are seperate events even in the CRT. This quote itself is when Akuto individually tests Outer Gods.

So basically, she's wrong because you think what you wrote is short. Sounds like you don't have a response again here.

Even in the raw it refers to infinite span of time, this objectively referring to infinite stories and possibilities.

This seems logically hyperbolic to me, but maybe it's just me:

To recognize reality, stories are needed. And this is because relationships with others are born here. But recreating all those possible stories took Akuto what amounted to an infinite span of time. Because, of course, he needed to test every story. But even so, the stories instantly became more complicated. ~Demon King Daimao, Vol13, ch4

After all, if he took infinite time to do this and also had to test those stories as he did. Then it seems to me there's a distinction between the sequence of events, discretely.

Such that you can say an event A, he was testing a world and event B, he was testing another. Then, such that event A he's creating a new world and event B he's creating a new world. And there's a real separation between these events, then logically it cannot be actual infinity and hence is hyperbolic. Even Aleph-null or the set of natural numbers is a regular cardinal, because N cannot be obtained by the sum of smaller numbers. According to Peano arithmetic, for any natural number N, there's always a unique successor S( n ).

This doesn't generally work against infinite time, but in this case in particular, it works without the important part. If the process is composed of discrete, successive events, and there is some kind of completion/closure. For example, Akuto Sai successively tests those worlds, and under those discrete actions, he somehow completes testing them all under infinite time, so it cannot be an actual infinity. Precisely because there's no successive action, that delineate a conclusion/end/completion of the set from within the sequences or elements closed under that regular cardinal N; that's where the surgery is being operated. It is inconceivable that he can test out those possibilities within infinite time discretely, then at some point that act in itself has closure and so on.

And mind you, continuous time, which generally has the cardinality of R, can be finite. So not only does this fail meaningfully to be expressed as any transfinite mathematically, but it fails to even be taken as a countable infinity. So yeah, this is definitely hyperbolic. You pretty much debunked yourself with this.

Wouldn't be a surprise because Mizuki also says a translation messed up in saying infinity and that countless≠infinity. I don't see why this wouldn't apply here.

I don't get why 76% of your responses are just "GASSPP WHAT IS THIS DISINGENUOUS ARGUMENT???? YOU DAREEEEE ARGUE WITH MY FACTUAL INTERPRETATION!!

I mean, you do know there are no factual interpretations in literature, right? You pretty much get taught anywhere eventually in English class. Shit, sometimes when you write essays, they encourage you to provide an analysis of a work of literature of your choice, and tell you to use any contextual clue or textual evidence from the work to justify your analysis.... You know themes and such.

I'll personally leave it out here, you're gonna get beat up here by her anyways tbh. I just felt thoroughly compelled to test out the logical consistency of some of your arguments, a little out of boredom.

I'd rate them as a soft 3/10.

I might be blind

Yes.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

The “possible worlds” idea isn’t just about grammar, IMO. It’s using grammatical examples to illustrate logically possible scenarios. The actual scope and topic being discussed is all logically conceivable worlds, not just sentences. (Since it's also what Akuto believes to be possible too; so nitpicking the core idea of all logically conceivable worlds on semantics is kind of weird)

Just to gently correct you here, but all logically possible worlds as ontologically instantiated are not antithetical to the idea that possible worlds are constructed from sentences and such. In modal ontology, this is called Ersatzist types of modal realism, and sometimes they are associated with modal idealism.

Furthermore, this isn't as simple as "this is all logically possible worlds, you're nitpicking". Because modal realism isn't just neatly about "hey, these are all logically possible worlds", the word realism implies an ontological commitment to the reality of possible worlds. But this is where the epistemic gap comes in, because the question of modal realism thereafter is what type of ontology is used to instantiate these worlds. Depending on the ontology the philosopher subscribes to, regarding his conception of modal realism.

The idea that all logically possible worlds are real starts less fixed and concrete in its scaling. Because some philosophers would say all possible worlds are just physical and concrete (David Lewis), some would subscribe to Platonic conceptions of modal realism, which was covered by the philosopher Alex Pruss. Who also constructed another hybrid modal realism (if realism means to exist, if it meant to exist concretely, then this is better thought of as modal idealism now).

The modality behind those possible worlds can be strong in its expressive power, something like alethic [logical] modality, for example. But the ontological commitment always degrades precisely how many bare logical possibilities can be represented under that ontology. For example, it is logically possible that platonic forms exist as a possibility amongst many possible worlds of the alethic modality, but David Lewis would deny that because of the constraints of the ontology he's using as a basis for modal realism (the constraint being that all of those worlds are concrete)

And since forms cannot be metaphysically reducible to being concrete, the strength of the modality becomes a non-factor, because the ontology is not necessarily up to standard in instantiating those logical possibilities into concrete and real possible worlds. Modal ontology is one of the most nuanced parts of philosophy, and naturally, modal realism theories should be handled with care regarding how seriously we take them to be with respect to high-tiering.

Is that understandable? So, she's not exactly misunderstanding anything here, nor is anybody, I'd like to think.

The part about the combination being infinite is quite frankly irrelevant, in modal realist theories assuming Ersatzian accounts. Where possible worlds are essentially sets of propositions and expressions, you always end up with infinite combinations. In fact, the problem of how if sentences/expressions or propositions are an ontological basis for some modal realist position, then what cardinality or set can be used to confer the amount of utterances within it?

What if we take our language to have an uncountably infinite set of sentences, for instance because it may have an uncountably infinite vocabu-lary? If gestures are included as part of the language and space is infinitely subdivisible, then we can utter uncountably many sentences of the form “The fish was this [holding hands apart by distance x] big.”

Because if we are not careful with what counts as a meaningful expression that confers something about a possible world. And say, all sentences equally do so. Then you make the case that that simple utterance alone would require an uncountably infinitely many utterances to just explicate on a single gesture or action being made.

You see how infinite combinations start to look less impressive if you know a little bit about modal ontology? These are the reasons why I effectively disagree with the thread personally. Infinite combinations are a non-factor, but because the character strings themselves are finite. I'm compelled to believe this modal realist theory has the expressive power to be scaled to High 1-A+, let alone the sufficient ontology to be tiered there.

Honestly, this is why I don't like the standard of all possible worlds being used at that High 1-A+, that stuff is... Just not friendly towards fiction at all, you know? Because fictional writers use these concepts without care for nuance here and there, not all of them, but most, so it tends to blur nuance in discussions like this.

I should have someone protest towards Ultima for this, because all logically possible worlds aren't a single uniform ontological claim, but a schema whose interpretation changes drastically depending on what you think worlds are made of.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Although I would love to entertain High 1-A+ TLOI if the supporters agree it's a supreme being, not sure if it necessarily is High 1-A+ though, but it's a more interesting conversation to have

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

As expected, the OP, being the completely dishonest person he is, refuses to accept that he is wrong and is trying to throw a tantrum to respond to my messages.

---

Quoting the response:

Question. Is using Author's statement okay for downplaying the verse but not upgrading it? Why are MTL more significant than actual human translation especially for Japan where the words of meaning chage significantly in context?

Not only does the guy try to poison the well by saying my translation is "MTL" without any kind of evidence, but he also insists on taking necessarily the “official” translation (regardless of the errors) into account when it was not even made with Mizuki’s involvement. In fact, Mizuki did not even know it existed.

Mizuki
I checked, but I did not put a specific number in my statement. Actually, the English version is a bootleg and not officially released. To answer your question, his power should have increased in the later part of the novel.

J-Novel
Hello! Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, our release of "Demon King Daimaou" was licensed officially from Hobby Japan (ebook only). There was an bootleg translation before, but our translation is official. Feel free to ask Hobby Japan about it, Mizuki-sensei.

-- Scans

The reason I translated the text myself is because I know Japanese and the English translation is wrong. This is not even a matter of context in this case. These are directly inaccurate translations, something I already demonstrated in my previous response

I invite you to directly debunk my translations with evidence instead of resorting to such pathetic rhetorical tactics.

---

Quoting the OP response:

This even in the offical translation is "any number of being", never was it said to infinite, nor has been used in the CRT.

In this part of the response, the OP directly concedes that there are no infinite Outer Gods in the novel, so there is not much to add.

---

Quoting the OP response:

If it isn't clear by the text itself, Author refers to Outer Gods as "counted in real number" which is considered to be Alpeh-1 in the wiki. BUT this was something I mentioned even in the previous CRT. Author later on directly states their being infinite numbers of them.

I honestly find it mind blowing how nonsensical some people can become just to inflate the level of fictional characters.

First of all, while it is true that the author says they are “not countable in real numbers,” you have to keep in mind that the reason he says this is that “they are mixed,” which has absolutely no relevance to set theory whatsoever.

Mizuki
Extra-universal gods cannot be counted in real numbers(They are mixed), but I don't think they are infinite.

-- Scans

In fact, this argument presupposes that Mizuki has knowledge of what “not being countable in real numbers” is supposed to imply. However, this is completely and demonstrably false, and the author himself has said several times that his mathematical knowledge is insufficient.

Mizuki
I also did not see your tweet. Sorry. And twice sorry. I am not that familiar with set theory. I'll leave that to the mathematicians!

-- Scans

Mizuki
I am not familiar with set theory. Sorry. Metaphysics is the foundation upon which the worldview of the novel is built.

-- Scans

Mizuki
As I have written before, the most difficult of the solipsism questions, "Why am I me?" The novel began with the I wish I could resolve the contradiction around it. It is due to my lack of familiarity with set theory. If you, the reader, can explain it, it will be true.
-- Scans

Mizuki
Thanks. It helped me to remember what I was doing when I was writing. I think my cosmology and set theory is strictly inaccurate, but the intention of the last volume is what I told you today. Please feel free to talk to me again anytime.

-- Scans

And I did not even need to show all of this, because the very scan I used as evidence in my previous message shows conditions that conflict with your interpretation.

The author directly clarifies that the Outer Gods are NOT infinite despite previously saying that they are “not countable in real numbers,” which decisively proves that Mizuki does not know what “not being countable in real numbers” means. Therefore, the only usable part is his explicit denial, which is consistent across two different messages.

Question
You said countless Archetypal extra-universal gods, for example, do you have a number like 10,100,1000 in your mind, also, are all Archetypal gods equal or one trascendes the other?

Answer
Extra-universal gods cannot be counted in real numbers(They are mixed), but I don't think they are infinite.

-- Scans

Question
In the novel, Archetype Extra Universe God, there is a sentence for Extra God, "They were humanoid and countless in number." When you say countless, do you mean infinite number?

Answer
It's a mess caused by translation. countless ≠ infinite. means many

-- Scans

Despite all of this, the OP tries to justify his point with several quotes from the novel. I am going to respond to them as a group.

Quoting the OP’s response:

In the novel, the birth of the universe is "You!" It is a wonder that the ego can recognize the other. If the ego could count, it would be infinite. It seems to be a worldview that cannot affirm a mathematical universe. Not in my opinion, but in the worldview of the novel.

In solipsism, the only thing that perceives the universe is oneself. However, solipsism does not deny the existence of others.

These quotes are literally irrelevant to the topic this point is trying to address. They are not even about the number of universes.

The first quote in particular is way too vague in general. The author only says that “if the ego could count, it could be infinite,” which has absolutely no relation to the number of universes.

Quoting the OP’s response:

Are you talking about individuals/ghosts in archetypal gods?. because the archetypal akuto also contains an infinite number of individuals/souls within him. Individuals exist as different concepts.

This quote is not talking about the Outer Gods, but about the ghosts inside the Outer Gods. Want to know something funny? Those ghosts are not even infinite in the first place, since the author is being hyperbolic in that message.

To understand this point, it is necessary to read an excerpt from the scene where the Outer Gods manifest in the Afterlife as shadows (those shadows contain within themselves a myriad of existences, which are the ghosts). The important thing in this scene is that Akuto looks at the Outer Gods and is able to perceive how many existences are inside those beings.

To express the number of ghosts, the novel uses the term 億, which means “hundreds of millions.”

RAW
背後を見るように外宇宙の神々は促(うなが)した。
阿九斗は地平線を見るともなく見やった。
そこには、地平線を埋め尽(つ)くす人々の影！ 影！ 影！
彼らはそれまでの者のように単純ではなかった。様々な服を着、性別もわかる。視線の端にだけ彼らの影がゆらめく。彼らはその内部にさらに何億もの存在を抱(かか)えているに違いなかった。一人一人が阿九斗と同じ幽(ゆう)霊(れい)たちを内側に抱えた存在なのだ。

TL
The gods of the outer universes urged them to look behind them.
Akuto looked toward the horizon without really looking at it.
There, shadows of people completely filled the horizon! Shadows! Shadows!
They were not simple like those who had come before. They wore various clothes, and their genders could also be discerned. Their shadows flickered only at the edge of his vision. They must have been holding hundreds of millions of further existences within themselves. Each and every one of them was an existence that held within itself the same ghosts as Akuto.

-- ACT 13: CH 3

This is extremely important, because we are talking about a person who textually has an “infinite” range of vision, meaning he is not limited by perception and should know with 100% certainty the range of quantity inside the Outer Gods.

And that range of quantity is obviously not “infinite” or anything like that. As we saw before, it is in the hundreds of millions.

RAW
「腑(ふ)抜(ぬ)けたりはしたくないな。ともかく僕の視界はマナが有る限りは無限大だ」

TL
'I don't want to lose my nerve. In any case, as long as there is mana, my field of vision is infinite.'

-- ACT 13: CH 1

And all of this is, once again, consistent with everything I explained in my first message regarding the limited modality through which Akuto creates possible worlds.

So there are no infinite Outer Gods, and each Outer God does not contain infinite souls. Now, to the last quote...

Quoting the OP’s response:

It refers to the number of gods that Akuto witnessed. It can be the ghosts that the archetypal god encompasses.

This quote is another case of the OP having absolutely no sense of the principle of charity and presupposing that the author is stupid, and that every time he has made it clear that the Outer Gods are not infinite, he was wrong.

Either way, the author leaves his answer very vague. It is impossible to know what the man actually understood from that question, so the coherent thing to do is go with what is most consistent.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

What? What logical conclusion? Where are the premises? What even is the connection between these sentences? Are you building it up on previous subconclusion with some unstated premise that there are only finite amount of Outer Gods? Otherwise this argument is incoherent.

Additionally, it's very much factually known that there are still steps between Akuto's Universe and Anti-gravity Universe. Thus the generalisation very much is invalid when the past is strictly called infinite. Logically contradictory when one of your premises also assume the contradiction that the past is finite.

The first part is not a refutation. The logical process is quite clear in my message.

The second part of the response has already been refuted in my previous message. The past being called "infinite" was retconned, and the existence of more Outer Gods between Akuto’s world and the Anti Gravity does not prove that the quantity is infinite. You are literally ignoring the evidence I provided, where finite timeframes are mentioned between the Void Universe and the formation of stories, which is fairly direct.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

Why not use more than one dictionary? Romanjidesu, wordhippo, context reverso, defines 無数 as infinite, countless or innumerable. And the wikitnory expresses it more clearly by referring that as a noun it can refer to either countless number or infinite number.

Now I have to give Japanese lessons to the same individual who accused me of using MTL without evidence, lmfao.

The kanji 無数 means “innumerable,” “countless,” or “a countless number of.”

The connotation is clearly that of a quantity so large that it cannot be easily counted, or that is simply not specified. In most cases, it does not affirm a mathematical infinity, and in this case, there is contextual support from the author. When other dictionaries list “infinite,” they are referring to the hyperbolic connotation of the term, used to express a very large quantity.

The kanji for infinity is 無限, which means “infinite,” “without limit,” and directly establishes infinity or the absence of a limit, especially when the context is quantitative, spatial, etc.

Jisho is the one that defines the term best. If you have no idea about Japanese, do not be arrogant and accept that you were wrong.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

This is very much dishonest when the translations you are using also follow through it with "infinite parallel worlds" suggesting that there truly are infinite possibilities. Which yes even by actual translation refers to proper infinity.

Nice tactic, trying to completely ignore my point about why, in that context, the text is not establishing an infinity.

I take that as a concession.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

The dictionary your are using also refers to it as characters in computing, or letter in alphabet. You can use other dictionaries too, some would be much direct referring to it as symbols some don't. In context the sentence "their combinations are infinite" does not make any gramtical sense with personalities or Identities, but it very well does when understood as a letter in alphabet.

You said it yourself at the beginning: Japanese is a context based language. In that scene, Akuto is talking about characters in his stories.

In the same link, it says that the form of that katakana used to indicate characters in computing is キャラクタ, while the text uses キャラクター.

The lack of reading comprehension you are showing is honestly astonishing.

RAW
空間こそ有限であり、キャラクターこそ有限ではあるが、その組み合わせは無限となる。可能性を開く、ということは、概念としてだけでなく、実際に阿(あ)九(く)斗(と)の内にあったはずの世界の壁すら解放してしまったことを指す。

TL
Space itself is finite, and the characters themselves are finite, but their combinations become infinite. To 'open possibilities' refers not only to doing so as a concept, but to actually having released even the walls of the world that should have existed within Akuto.

-- ACT 13: CH 4

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

The dishonesty knows no bound. Add the context, the Afterlife is directly stated to not follow this logic and hence has infinite time which itself allows this paradox to work.

The lack of reading comprehension and media literacy knows no bounds. The text is talking about how the entire world works, and it is because of that that Bouichirou can travel through time, since otherwise it would not be possible.

It is not saying that the world cannot be defined through that theory. It is clarifying that the world’s timeline is linear and does not normally branch.

To top it all off, the novel never says there is “infinite time” in the Afterlife, lol. It only says that matter exists there simultaneously, and that is because the verse is eternalist (all the timeline share the same real ontology).

“This world is, according to standard physics, impossible. This world is like a video, or a book. It’s linear.”

Boichiro drew several squares above the line, with the number of squares increasing as the line moved to the right.

“Here, all matter exists simultaneously. The past continues to exist. Imagine blocks being piled up on top of other blocks. And these blocks can be rearranged.”

“And that’s why it’s possible to rewrite the past, and change the future.”

Hiroshi nodded in understanding.

-- ACT 13: CH 1

Quoting the OP’s response:

Additionally, try to reason what is meant here. Zeno's paradox is a paradox for it cannot occur in reality but does by our current standards of theory. In addition, the only thing that can be extrapolated is that their is smallest unit of time which doesn't allow for time travel, it's completely unknown as to what is the smallest unit of time. This is lapse of basic Logical reasoning.

If there is a minimum unit of time, then the temporal line is not continuous, because if it were, the paradox of Achilles would make movement impossible.

Thanks for conceding once again.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

1- "This also explains why it is said that, as Akuto kept simulating and advancing through possibilities, he was gaining more characters and scenarios to work with." Literally nothing as such thing is said. The very moment Akuto destroys his being he subsumes all Outer Gods inside him, and releases all possibilities. Heck this quote used here occurs proper to even the individual testing of stories starts, and he already had all the Outer Gods and elements brought by them subsumed inside his being.

2- "because in that case he would already have all possible information at his disposal."

I already explained that phrase in my previous response. It is a progressive process. You are not debunking any of my points.

On top of that, you are lying, because the context of that phrase takes place while Akuto is testing stories, since the text explicitly says that the story was progressing.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

Because he rejected the ritual as a solution completely? He himself limited his testing of stories to not involve TLOI as he perceived Kiana to be sleeping.

I would ask a question to you using this specific quote, and I would stress at it again, it's after Akuto tested hundreds of thounsands of stories and thus visitor is Hiroshi and Boichiro.

Why is it case that after testing all these stories were Hiroshi and Boichiro outside his influence? Which according to you should be involved here.
Why is it the case that there were only "few personalities outside his influence" and not many?
Why is it the case that all Outer Gods were subsumed under Akuto when there were many many stories left off?
I would add this quote just prior to the quote you used here in regards to the third question, and additionally support the existence of infinite possibilities.

Even in the raw it refers to infinite span of time, this objectively referring to infinite stories and possibilities. Now again why did he subsume all Outer Gods when he only went through hundreds of thounsands stories?

Under my interpretation the answer to this rather simple, just separating these events, releasing of all possibilities result in infinite possibilities and as a result subsuming all Outer Gods into himself but which led to chaos. It's then followed by recreating the Universe back and Akuto Individually testing each story as he only assumes the beings not the possibilities itself as mentioned here.

While furthermore this Akuto is limited by his own personality and perception and doesn't involve TLOI due to such, as is necessary for the ritual, which as mentioned by Hiroshi is the case because he assumes that Kiana is sleeping.

There is no statement whatsoever about Akuto “subsuming all Outer Gods.” The Outer Gods are not under Akuto’s influence. They simply manifested within his stories to prevent him from reaching a satisfying conclusion.

The reason Bouichirou is “not subject” to Akuto is because he is another archetype, just like Akuto. He is not a mere “soul.”

Genuinely, all this headcanon does not satisfy the burden I asked you to address. If Akuto can create any logical possibility he wants without restrictions, then:

• Why does he need to test stories if he already knows what will happen in them, since he supposedly defined them himself?
• Why does he need to wait for the story to progress in order to realize that the possibility he created does not work for him?
• Why is it explicitly stated that new elements were being added to his pool of elements as the stories progressed?

If we use the Akuto from your fanfic, he should have been able to define, from the very beginning, a possible world where he was satisfied. But he could not.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

Why? Why would you twist the words to fit your agenda. Even ignoring how I already mentioned the multiple steps still available between them, the fan mistook Computer Gods complementing infinities with infinite story Density. Mizuki states that the CGs complement infinitely dense infinity refers to set theory and but the use of Story density in that way made him think that he made some mistake when writing story density in Vol13, and then said their might be some discrepancies between the two volumes.(especially when the other question prior to this was about Anti-universe which is related to story Density and not set theory.) It's nothing whatever you are trying to do with it.

He was being gaslit by the powerscaling guy Siperri. Either way, I already demonstrated above, with plenty of evidence, that the author has no idea about set theory, by his own admission.

In any case, you are completely shadowboxing the point, because my argument is centered on the fact that the author retconned information, something that is directly stated, and you are conveniently ignoring the second quote, which explains why that information is contradicted in later ACTs.

I have been sick since volume 11 and it took me years to get to volume 13. I have forgotten some of the concepts during that time.

-- Scans

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

Again go ahead and tell me where is it written that Akuto "alter its arrangement"?

The reconfiguration or reconstruction happenes everytime, this is related to the the nature of Afterlife, that is, a world made of data where changing the configuration of the matter/data affects the world itself. This reconfiguration is a completely different things from erasure or reset.

You are merely commiting equivocation between "reset" and "reconfiguration/reconstruction". They are separate things and I referred to reset of the world as to signify that the reset means the entire world is recreated but into Akuto's Universe.

Additionally, the "erasure" was already suggested by the fact that previously Akuto did try to erase the Afterlife which could have resulted into a suicide though he was stopped by Keena.

This was suicide. If you destroyed space itself in a world where you couldn’t die, would everything turn to nothing? The look on Akuto’s face seemed to say to her that he was ready to find out. He was just quietly and calmly closing his fist. Fujiko grabbed his open hand. The ground swelled up like it was being sucked up into the air. The seas surged into the city like a tidal wave. Buildings shattered and people began to float up to the sky. The whole Earth was under tremendous pressure, like it had
suddenly been submerged miles below the sea. It was an end to the world that no one had ever anticipated.

They are not different things, and my message makes that crystal clear. “Erasure” is referring to resetting the Afterlife, which is something the characters themselves tell you to your face.

“So, the Demon King changed the whole afterlife?” Brave asked, putting a hand on his hip.

“It’s always getting changed. This time, however, he erased it.”

“Erased it? You mean he reset it and did it over?”

-- ACT 13: CH 3

And to top it all off, being the dishonest person you are, you are using a scene where Fujiko says something stupid while having no ******* idea how the Afterlife works. At that point, Akuto only knew that he could control the Afterlife with his mana, and that was it.

That is even before the appearance of Keina TLOI.

Your intellectual dishonesty is incredible.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

Huh? That is TLOI? The higher power that is involved in all the stories as necessary principle?

Who did you think was Hiroshi talking with in chapter 5, "the end of all stories" which was just him accepting his role as the new TLOI.

Multiple beings.

RAW
「だが、結局のところ外宇宙の神々とて虚構なんだ。ただ、自身では神、人類、幽霊の区別がつかないだけだ。上位者に教えてもらうことで、そして、ひとつの宇宙に囲いを作った時のみ、神、人類、幽霊は、はっきりと分かれる。誰の内部にあるのか理解できるようになるということだ」
望一郎の分(ぶん)析(せき)に、阿九斗は考え込んだ。
「さて……そうなると、僕はいかにして上位者に答えたらいいのか？ ということを改めて考えることになる。僕は僕の内部だけでなく、自同律の宇宙の、その全存在を救いたい。彼らを物語から解放したい。それが望みだ」

TL
'But, in the end, even the gods of the outer universes are fiction. It is just that they themselves cannot distinguish between gods, humanity, and ghosts. Only by being taught by a higher being, and only when an enclosure has been made around a single universe, do gods, humanity, and ghosts become clearly separated. It means becoming able to understand whose interior they are within.'

At Bouichirou's analysis, Akuto fell into deep thought.

'Now then... if that is the case, I will have to think once again about how I should answer the higher beings. I want to save not only what is within me, but all existence in the universe of the law of identity. I want to free them from the narrative. That is my wish.'

-- ACT 13: CH 4

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

The Central structure of the story is annihilated? Who said possibilities are annihilated?

Bruh.

Referring to the "Chaos" explained above, was an utter annihilation of all stories that resulted in recreation of story from scratch. To support this, when Akuto and most other souls went into Anti-Universe, Hiroshi the new TLOI went through the same process.

---

Summary

• The OP is directly lying and has not debunked practically anything from my message.
• He accuses me of using MTL, but does not substantiate his claim.
• His entire understanding and alternative interpretations of the Japanese phrases are wrong.
• The guy denies saying things he really did say, being openly dishonest, and fails to substantiate his points.

In other words, all my points still stand.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

He accuses me of using MTL, but does not substantiate his claim.

This can be lodged as a complaint in RVR, I think, because not only is it damaging your integrity further, which might be used by people with all malicious intents and purposes pointing out to this thread later on, but it presupposes you're using MTL when you're not. I know your depth of Japanese skills. And he really ought to substantiate his accusations against you of MTL.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

This can be lodged as a complaint in RVR, I think, because not only is it damaging your integrity further, which might be used by people with all malicious intents and purposes

It’s okay, no need. It just pisses me off. It is extremely simple to accept that you were wrong, but some people refuse to do it even when you rub the facts in their face.

 

[Hecky2222]

This can be lodged as a complaint in RVR, I think, because not only is it damaging your integrity further, which might be used by people with all malicious intents and purposes pointing out to this thread later on, but it presupposes you're using MTL when you're not. I know your depth of Japanese skills. And he really ought to substantiate his accusations against you of MTL.

You can call official TL member Raiki here in any case to not getting accused by "MTL usage". I know Bern knows Japanese. But if OP's argument gets clinged to "MTL" while not trusting opponent's language knowledge, ig confirmation here directly from TL member could help anyway

 

[Azertyhuuh]

For now lost me as disagreeing with the upgrade. I don't see a reasonable cause, as argued by the OP, for High 1-A+.

However, the original poster’s evidence can establish that Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity should each possess at least infinitely many layers above the baseline in the H1A tier. This is because Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity are capable of creating logically possible worlds, albeit in a limited manner—not necessarily all of them, but still able to generate them progressively or create any logically possible world individually, even if not all at once. Based on the available evidence, both he and the Law of Identity should at least be able to produce hierarchical sequences of worlds that involve qualitative superiority, which is quite clear.

In the end, we cannot deny that he is capable of creating any logically possible world, as the texts support this. While it is true that he cannot create all logically possible worlds, it is not reasonable to place him only at the baseline level of H1A. At the very least, he should possess countless or infinite layers above that level.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

However, the original poster’s evidence can establish that Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity should each possess at least infinitely many layers above the baseline in the H1A tier. This is because Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity are capable of creating logically possible worlds, albeit in a limited manner—not necessarily all of them, but still able to generate them progressively or create any logically possible world individually, even if not all at once. Based on the available evidence, both he and the Law of Identity should at least be able to produce hierarchical sequences of worlds that involve qualitative superiority, which is quite clear.

The cosmology is just a single infinite hierarchy of R>F. The Afterlife is only a few layers above baseline material reality, and those “possible worlds” are verbatim defined as “parallel" (without any extra connotation) which means they are not part of a hierarchy.

What you are proposing does not make any sense.

In the end, we cannot deny that he is capable of creating any logically possible world, as the texts support this. While it is true that he cannot create all logically possible worlds, it is not reasonable to place him only at the baseline level of H1A.

The High 1-A rating for his last key is wrong and should probably be changed to “Unknown.” The final destination of the souls is just a universe not bound by the “density of narrative” system. In other words, it is completely outside the influence of every deity in the multiverse of the verse.

It's not a "completely trascendental place" or whatever nonsense powerscalers interpret.

 

[Thunderman101]

why do these threads always turn into text walls

 

[Azertyhuuh]

It’s okay, no need. It just pisses me off. It is extremely simple to accept that you were wrong, but some people refuse to do it even when you rub the facts in their face.

This can be lodged as a complaint in RVR, I think, because not only is it damaging your integrity further, which might be used by people with all malicious intents and purposes pointing out to this thread later on, but it presupposes you're using MTL when you're not. I know your depth of Japanese skills. And he really ought to substantiate his accusations against you of MTL.

For now lost me as disagreeing with the upgrade. I don't see a reasonable cause, as argued by the OP, for High 1-A+.

I think that, based on this and what the original poster said, Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity should at least possess infinite layers above the baseline in the H1A tier. This is because the fact that he can create any logically possible world he desires is still clearly established—anything that can be expressed in words can be created. He can generate any world he wants here, and he is capable of creating infinitely many worlds, even beyond infinity itself.

Thus, the afterlife would at least be a limited logical space, but one that can contain any world regardless of its nature, including infinite quantities and even beyond infinite structures within it. Therefore, an H1A level (with infinite layers) seems reasonable here, since the text explicitly indicates that he can create any logically possible world, no matter what it is—anything that can be expressed in words can be created here.

“You’re going to end the world... But like I said, that’s complicated. First, I need to explain what this world is. The afterlife acts as if it was made just for us. It responds to our will, or your will, mostly. Which means that this world can take any form you want it to.”
“That, I understand.”
“No, you don’t, really. You don’t know what that really means. There’s a concept called ‘possible worlds’.”
“Possible worlds?” Akuto “remembered” a word that he’d never known by scanning the data loaded into his mind.
“I see. A thought experiment that says in a world where anything can happen, given enough time, any given thing will happen.”
“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”
Yoshie began to explain the concept of possible worlds, which was difficult to understand just from the database.
For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.
“You’re going to make every possible theoretical world,” Yoshie said, as if ordering him.
“Every one of them, huh?”
It was a staggering concept to think about.
“Whatever is left at the end is what you want. View every possible world, and then choose the one you want.”
“You’re right... In a world where I can do anything I want... I can look for a possibility that will save the world. It may be the only way out of here.”
“I think you should get to work right away, then.” Yoshie pulled up a mana screen and displayed the entirety of history so far as a model.
“The data you have access to is a copy of the world at the moment of its destruction. As long as that copy exists, you can use it to go back and calculate out any possibility you like.”
“But it feels like a world which was created that way would be pretty sloppy and inaccurate,” Akuto complained.
“That’s fine. Even a sloppy and inaccurate possibility is still a possibility,” Yoshie replied.
And so Akuto resolved to find the possibilities within himself.
„~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 3

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I think that, based on this and what the original poster said, Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity should at least possess infinite layers above the baseline in the H1A tier. This is because the fact that he can create any logically possible world he desires is still clearly established—anything that can be expressed in words can be created. He can generate any world he wants here, and he is capable of creating infinitely many worlds, even beyond infinity itself.

Thus, the afterlife would at least be a limited logical space, but one that can contain any world regardless of its nature, including infinite quantities and even beyond infinite structures within it. Therefore, an H1A level (with infinite layers) seems reasonable here, since the text explicitly indicates that he can create any logically possible world, no matter what it is—anything that can be expressed in words can be created here.

Dude.... did you even read my three responses????

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Dude.... did you even read my three responses????

Honestly, I’m not convinced by this. What you’re saying really contradicts what is stated in the novel. The novel makes it clear that any logically possible world can exist in the afterlife—anything that can be expressed in words can exist there.

As for the “parallel worlds” you’re referring to, that is merely an interpretation or representation from another character’s perspective. It’s not an absolute statement of fact, but rather a comparison. A comparison does not necessarily reflect literal truth, especially when the text itself explains the concept of logically possible worlds. That cannot be denied.

So that’s just a characterization from a character, not an objective fact. You can’t rely on a figurative representation while ignoring the actual explanation, can you?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Honestly, I’m not convinced by this. What you’re saying really contradicts what is stated in the novel. The novel makes it clear that any logically possible world can exist in the afterlife—anything that can be expressed in words can exist there.

As for the “parallel worlds” you’re referring to, that is merely an interpretation or representation from another character’s perspective. It’s not an absolute statement of fact, but rather a comparison. A comparison does not necessarily reflect literal truth, especially when the text itself explains the concept of logically possible worlds. That cannot be denied.

So that’s just a characterization from a character, not an objective fact. You can’t rely on a figurative representation while ignoring the actual explanation, can you?

Do you realize that if you say that part of the explanation is not usable because it is a comparison, then you are automatically conceding that the explanation introducing the stuff about possible worlds is also unusable for the same reason?

It is clear you are not reading the discussion. So PLEASE, let the actual supporters of the verse respond and stop wasting everyone else’s time.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

The High 1-A rating for his last key is wrong and should probably be changed to “Unknown.” The final destination of the souls is just a universe not bound by the “density of narrative” system. In other words, it is completely outside the influence of every deity in the multiverse of the verse.

It's not a "completely trascendental place" or whatever nonsense powerscalers interpret.

The work is based on a hierarchy between reality and fiction, where characters repeatedly discover that what they are experiencing is merely fiction from the perspective of a higher reality, and this chain continues endlessly. The goal of the characters, especially Akuto Sai, is to reach the absolute truth and escape this repetition.

The Anti-Universe represents the final endpoint: a realm that completely transcends the concepts of both reality and fiction, not just a higher level of them. It is an absolute void where all things come to an end, and it cannot be regarded as fiction from any higher level, because it exists outside these concepts entirely.

Therefore, it is assumed to transcend any hierarchical structure of qualitative or meta-qualitative superiority entirely. This is because the Anti-Universe surpasses the Afterlife, which itself can generate any logically possible world expressible in words. The Afterlife can contain an infinite or uncountably infinite number of hierarchical worlds with qualitative transcendence and any other possible world, but it remains a logically bounded space. What is certain, however, is that it can contain infinite numbers of worlds within it (i.e., any logically expressible world).

In contrast, the Anti-Universe, as explained, is the realm that transcends the very concepts of reality and fiction themselves. It is the place where everything ends and where absolute truth exists, and it can never be considered fiction relative to any higher world above it.

“You’re going to end the world... But like I said, that’s complicated. First, I need to explain what this world is. The afterlife acts as if it was made just for us. It responds to our will, or your will, mostly. Which means that this world can take any form you want it to.”
“That, I understand.”
“No, you don’t, really. You don’t know what that really means. There’s a concept called ‘possible worlds’.”
“Possible worlds?” Akuto “remembered” a word that he’d never known by scanning the data loaded into his mind.
“I see. A thought experiment that says in a world where anything can happen, given enough time, any given thing will happen.”
“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”
Yoshie began to explain the concept of possible worlds, which was difficult to understand just from the database.
For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.
“You’re going to make every possible theoretical world,” Yoshie said, as if ordering him.
“Every one of them, huh?”
It was a staggering concept to think about.
“Whatever is left at the end is what you want. View every possible world, and then choose the one you want.”
“You’re right... In a world where I can do anything I want... I can look for a possibility that will save the world. It may be the only way out of here.”
“I think you should get to work right away, then.” Yoshie pulled up a mana screen and displayed the entirety of history so far as a model.
“The data you have access to is a copy of the world at the moment of its destruction. As long as that copy exists, you can use it to go back and calculate out any possibility you like.”
“But it feels like a world which was created that way would be pretty sloppy and inaccurate,” Akuto complained.
“That’s fine. Even a sloppy and inaccurate possibility is still a possibility,” Yoshie replied.
And so Akuto resolved to find the possibilities within himself.
„~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 3

“Hmm... We’re heading to where all stories end. Where humanity will always strive to go... That’s what she says.”
Keena must have heard this from the Law of Identity, because she seemed to not know what it meant.
“The place humanity always strives to go, huh?” Akuto whispered.
Humanity would dream an eternal dream through “light” stories, striving for a place where the weight of the stories would eventually become zero.
“We’re doing a ritual to create an imaginary body, is that right?” Akuto asked.
“I guess so. I don’t really think I could understand the details, but it’s basically our real marriage, right?”
Keena spoke excitedly, and began without even waiting for Akuto. It was a ritual where not only stories, but the body, would cross over zero and become imaginary. They would create a negative body, an imaginary body, the first step to becoming something not of this world. Data, existing as imaginary numbers.
A space without time.
A place where physical laws ended.
Beyond causality.
Beyond reality.
The salvation of all beings.
„~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 6“
Akuto smiled. His body began to shrink as well. He was absorbed into Keena too.
Eventually Keena turned inside out, and disappeared into this new world — the anti-universe. All that was left was void was within void. Void without even words. In other words, a new void universe was born.
„~ Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 6
This description introduces the idea that The Anti-Universe is not just a void in a conventional sense, but a true negation of existence described as a void within void, where even words, the fundamental constructs of stories, cease to be. This level of erasure places it beyond any conceivable narrative structure, cementing its position as an endpoint that stands apart from all conceivable hierarchies.
“
But just before that happened...
A conversation was held in a fraction of an instant, in the smallest possible amount of time that could be recorded. One thing was left behind in the void universe.
Just one thing.
“Am I... am I left behind?” The voice of the hero. It was Hiroshi, and Boichiro, and Kento, and the author too.
“Yes. As you were told already, you will be left behind,” the Law of Identity answered.
She’d looked like a goddess of salvation, but she was a cruel goddess as well.
“Why?!”
A scream.
A scream of pain.
He’d half-expected it. But he’d hoped there would be salvation for him too. That hope was betrayed.
“You must leave behind stories as stories. So that the next souls can go to that place as well.”
He shook his head, as if he found this impossible to believe.
“That’s so cruel...!”
“The concept of ‘cruel’ is only something you feel because you view things through stories. You will simply start over from the beginning. In the next instant, you’ll go to the void universe, and then you will shift to the faceless universe, and then the gravity universe. Though it may take tens of thousands of years.”
“Don’t say that! Am I starting the story over from scratch?”
“There’s nothing that can be done about it. Because you are you.”
“Because I am me? I can’t escape from that.”
“That is called the Law of Identity.”
“I’m going to become the Law of Identity?”
“You will be the next Law of Identity. If you are next to be saved, it will be when you become the guide for the next group of people. When you lead the stories that are trapped by gravity to lightness.”
„~Demon King Daimaō Volume 13 Chapter 6

 

[Vesxpura]

why do these threads always turn into text walls

powerscaling am i right

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Yeah I'm gonna start ignoring Azerthy. Someone should call more staff members.

 

[Vesxpura]

Yeah I'm gonna start ignoring Azerthy. Someone should call more staff members.

u shouldve paid attention to the instant death threads. this wouldve been prevented.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

As expected, the OP, being the completely dishonest person he is, refuses to accept that he is wrong and is trying to throw a tantrum to respond to my messages.

Not only does the guy try to poison the well by saying my translation is "MTL" without any kind of evidence, but he also insists on taking necessarily the “official” translation (regardless of the errors) into account when it was not even made with Mizuki’s involvement. In fact, Mizuki did not even know it existed.

The only translations to be used are by the translation helpers, which is why I assumed to be the case and it was wrong on my part. I apologise on that part.

The reason I translated the text myself is because I know Japanese and the English translation is wrong. This is not even a matter of context in this case. These are directly inaccurate translations, something I already demonstrated in my previous response

I invite you to directly debunk my translations with evidence instead of resorting to such pathetic rhetorical tactics.

In this part of the response, the OP directly concedes that there are no infinite Outer Gods in the novel, so there is not much to add.

I did not, as I said, I never used whatever wrong translation you are talking about. Additionally, the quote used in the CRT itself says this:

“The birth of a universe is like the birth of a story. If a universe is a collection of stories, there could be any number of beings on the outside that are like us.”

What is used is Boichiro's statement about there being "likely infinite" of them, authors statement and infinite possibilities statements.

Quoting the OP response:


I honestly find it mind blowing how nonsensical some people can become just to inflate the level of fictional characters.

First of all, while it is true that the author says they are “not countable in real numbers,” you have to keep in mind that the reason he says this is that “they are mixed,” which has absolutely no relevance to set theory whatsoever.

In fact, this argument presupposes that Mizuki has knowledge of what “not being countable in real numbers” is supposed to imply. However, this is completely and demonstrably false, and the author himself has said several times that his mathematical knowledge is insufficient.

I went through authors tweet and did find something significant, but before that.
Author is using set theory to also refer to both cardinality and story Density. The discrepancy between Vol5 and 13 also comes from this distinction.

I am deliberately confusing the meaning of density and cardinality in set theory. In Japanese, they are the same 濃度.

I thought it was infinite in mathematical set theory. Infinite density is also a computer-generated world. Sorry if my knowledge of set theory is incomplete and wrong. There may be some discrepancies between volume 5 and volume 13.

This and this, two of the quotes used were when the Powerscalers were asking very random Powerscaling oriented question.

Though if the other quotes could justify the lack of knowledge of being countable is very much questionable, I will address it alongside other stuff below.

And I did not even need to show all of this, because the very scan I used as evidence in my previous message shows conditions that conflict with your interpretation.

The author directly clarifies that the Outer Gods are NOT infinite despite previously saying that they are “not countable in real numbers,” which decisively proves that Mizuki does not know what “not being countable in real numbers” means. Therefore, the only usable part is his explicit denial, which is consistent across two different messages.

Just few days after the tweet, "infinite ≠ countless" author directly refers that the steps in the spectrum are infinite, made up of gods. Additionally the scan to which the question was for used the word "countless".

The word spectrum is used to mean that there are infinite steps in the fictional(story) concentration,From heavy to light.
The story is made up of gods of close concentration.

So, yes it can very well refer solely to the translation and specifically for this part too, or there was some issue with what the author might not remember the story, it was the first time such question was asked with an extremely unclear question for what translation is referred.

Additionally, I would support this by the the same tweet I used previously that you seemingly misunderstood by dividing them separately.

Despite all of this, the OP tries to justify his point with several quotes from the novel. I am going to respond to them as a group.

Quoting the OP’s response:
These quotes are literally irrelevant to the topic this point is trying to address. They are not even about the number of universes.

The first quote in particular is way too vague in general. The author only says that “if the ego could count, it could be infinite,” which has absolutely no relation to the number of universes.

Quoting the OP’s response:

This quote is not talking about the Outer Gods, but about the ghosts inside the Outer Gods. Want to know something funny? Those ghosts are not even infinite in the first place, since the author is being hyperbolic in that message.

To understand this point, it is necessary to read an excerpt from the scene where the Outer Gods manifest in the Afterlife as shadows (those shadows contain within themselves a myriad of existences, which are the ghosts). The important thing in this scene is that Akuto looks at the Outer Gods and is able to perceive how many existences are inside those beings.

To express the number of ghosts, the novel uses the term 億, which means “hundreds of millions.”



This is extremely important, because we are talking about a person who textually has an “infinite” range of vision, meaning he is not limited by perception and should know with 100% certainty the range of quantity inside the Outer Gods.

And that range of quantity is obviously not “infinite” or anything like that. As we saw before, it is in the hundreds of millions.



And all of this is, once again, consistent with everything I explained in my first message regarding the limited modality through which Akuto creates possible worlds.

So there are no infinite Outer Gods, and each Outer God does not contain infinite souls. Now, to the last quote...

Quoting the OP’s response:


This quote is another case of the OP having absolutely no sense of the principle of charity and presupposing that the author is stupid, and that every time he has made it clear that the Outer Gods are not infinite, he was wrong.

Either way, the author leaves his answer very vague. It is impossible to know what the man actually understood from that question, so the coherent thing to do is go with what is most consistent.

It's unreasonable to divide the tweets, all of them are consecutive replies in the one on one conversation.
What the author was talking about being infinite were the Outer Gods.

In solipsism, the only thing that perceives the universe is oneself. However, solipsism does not deny the existence of others.
~ @S_Mizuki
Would it be easier to say that each individual is in a state of having his or her own universe? Individuals in it are all human beings from the past to the future.
~ @S_Mizuki
Are you talking about individuals/ghosts in archetypal gods?. because the archetypal akuto also contains an infinite number of individuals/souls within him. Individuals exist as different concepts.
~ @Siperri1
It refers to the number of gods that Akuto witnessed. It can be the ghosts that the archetypal god encompasses.
~ @S_Mizuki

The ghosts part is said as "it can be", which is referring to some view he thought of and addresses it the reply immediately after it.

In solipsism, I have come to the strange idea that the ghosts that the universe contains have the right to represent the universe

Something he didn't actually write that way in the novel, as mentioned in the immediate reply.

I may not think the same way I did when I wrote the novel, but that is the only way to juxtapose it with the other-self problem
I hope it will lead to some ideas for writing a novel, but I can't seem to find an appropriate subject.

Quoting the OP’s response:
The first part is not a refutation. The logical process is quite clear in my message.

Nuh uh isn't an argument. I am not asserting something, a question is asked you should be able to express it again if it's really clear.

The second part of the response has already been refuted in my previous message. The past being called "infinite" was retconned, and the existence of more Outer Gods between Akuto’s world and the Anti Gravity does not prove that the quantity is infinite. You are literally ignoring the evidence I provided, where finite timeframes are mentioned between the Void Universe and the formation of stories, which is fairly direct.

I already mentioned that the only thing the tweet referred to is the discrepancy, and just prior to this I also established that it was referring to Story density and cardinality. Your argument is grounded on assumptions.

Additionally, as I previously said there are more steps to the story creation after Anti-universe and before reaching Akuto's Universe, so any such generalisation is not really relevant.(especially that the author said there are infinite such steps)

“The Antigravity Universe allows love to exist.”
Beings there consumed each other, but the moment they collided, sometimes they shared their being, and gave birth to ne existence.
“Me!”
“You!”
“I killed!”
“I increased!”
Lively voices filled the space.
“I guess the universe I know is really close. Is that all the universes, then?” Akuto asked. And the outer gods said no.

You are repeating the same thing without addressing the argument.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:


Now I have to give Japanese lessons to the same individual who accused me of using MTL without evidence, lmfao.

The kanji 無数 means “innumerable,” “countless,” or “a countless number of.”

The connotation is clearly that of a quantity so large that it cannot be easily counted, or that is simply not specified. In most cases, it does not affirm a mathematical infinity, and in this case, there is contextual support from the author. When other dictionaries list “infinite,” they are referring to the hyperbolic connotation of the term, used to express a very large quantity.

The kanji for infinity is 無限, which means “infinite,” “without limit,” and directly establishes infinity or the absence of a limit, especially when the context is quantitative, spatial, etc.

Jisho is the one that defines the term best. If you have no idea about Japanese, do not be arrogant and accept that you were wrong.

Ok

Quoting the OP’s response:

Nice tactic, trying to completely ignore my point about why, in that context, the text is not establishing an infinity.

"Then, it becomes clear that the world contains possibilities that could be called infinite. It may also be considered that they exist infinitely as parallel worlds.

So what does "considered that they exist Infinitely as parallel worlds" even supposed to mean? They encompass infinite sized structure? There are infinite parallel worlds? Or there are infinite possibilities existing parallel to each other?

I take that as a concession.
Quoting the OP’s response:


You said it yourself at the beginning: Japanese is a context based language. In that scene, Akuto is talking about characters in his stories.

In the same link, it says that the form of that katakana used to indicate characters in computing is キャラクタ, while the text uses キャラクター.

The lack of reading comprehension you are showing is honestly astonishing.

As I said, it's completely incoherent. Adding properly in this, it's incoherent to the concept of "possible world" already established in previously.

“Correct. Anything that can be put into writing can happen here. Which means that nothing will happen that can’t be expressed in words.”
Yoshie began to explain the concept of possible worlds, which was difficult to understand just from the database.
For example, “An elephant flies” or “Hitler appears in Paris in the year 2000” are both physically impossible, but perfectly grammatical sentences. If an elephant had wings, or if Hitler was still alive, they could quite easily happen. If you accept that these worlds are possible, you realize that the world is filled with endless possibilities, which can be thought of as simultaneously existing parallel worlds.

Quoting the OP’s response:

The lack of reading comprehension and media literacy knows no bounds. The text is talking about how the entire world works, and it is because of that that Bouichirou can travel through time, since otherwise it would not be possible.

It is not saying that the world cannot be defined through that theory. It is clarifying that the world’s timeline is linear and does not normally branch.

To top it all off, the novel never says there is “infinite time” in the Afterlife, lol. It only says that matter exists there simultaneously, and that is because the verse is eternalist (all the timeline share the same real ontology).

Huh?

“We aren’t. What is our understanding of time?”
It was an abstract question, but Hiroshi realized it was something critical to the core of their problems. If he was going to start the world over and avoid this ending, he needed to understand what time actually was. And at school, he’d learned the physical definition
of time.
He repeated what the textbooks had told him.
Time is relative. It's the same thing as space in which matter moves," he said. "As speed goes up, the space you can move to increases, and so does the probability that you'll encounter various events. But matter can only move in one direction. Expressed in two dimensions, it's like only being able to choose one point within an expanding ripple on a lake."
"That's more or less right. One thing cannot exist at multiple points in space at the same time. But here that law doesn't apply.That's why I was able to go back in time."

The sole reason to why matter cannot exist in multiple place at once is given as time having minimum unit size.

"The reason that something can't exist in multiple places at once is that, in fact, time has a minimum unit size. If it could be infinitely divided, then the paradox of the tortoise and Achilles would be made real."
He drew a symbol at the center of the line on the ground. And then another at the center of the right side of the newly divided line. He repeated this process 32 times, until the symbol itself was larger than the divided line.
"Imagine this symbol as the minimum unit size of time, and you'll understand."
"I can understand that. But what does that have to do with it being possible to go back in time? Doesn't that make it so going back in time is impossible?"

But matter exist simultaneously in Afterlife which also doesn't not work under the same principle of time, can be deduced easily that time in Afterlife doesn't have the smallest unit.

"Correct. In the model with the rippling lake, the other points on the circle are just probabilities. In other words, they might have happened, but they didn't. Even if matter returns to the point it was in before, the other matter is no longer there. But the world that we know is not like the lake."
He erased the line with his foot, and drew another.
"This world is, according to standard physics, impossible. This world is like a video, or a book. It's linear."
Boichiro drew several squares above the line, with the number of squares increasing as the line moved to the right.
"Here, all matter exists simultaneously. The past continues to exist. Imagine blocks being piled up on top of other blocks. And these blocks can be rearranged."

It's solely the reason why time is eternal in Afterlife and Hiroshi always end up at the same instant.

“That’s what I said at the start. For some reason, you always come here in the end.” He pointed to the ground.
“In other words, the afterlife.” Hiroshi frowned.
Boichiro’s expression remained the same.
“Correct. And to this place, and this instant. You’ll come here again and again.”

“It’s hard to answer that question at its core. In fact, this afterlife is essentially the ‘time’ the Demon King bought. It’s not over yet.”
“It’s not?” Hiroshi asked, confused.
“But this place may be the end. Perhaps there is an end without an ending. An ending where time is eternal, like this.”

The very plot revolves around the eternity of time in Afterlife and why Akuto seeks and end rather than eternity.

Quoting the OP’s response:

If there is a minimum unit of time, then the temporal line is not continuous, because if it were, the paradox of Achilles would make movement impossible.

Thanks for conceding once again.

Quoting the OP’s response:
I already explained that phrase in my previous response. It is a progressive process. You are not debunking any of my points.

On top of that, you are lying, because the context of that phrase takes place while Akuto is testing stories, since the text explicitly says that the story was progressing.

So you are talking about this in particular am I right?

As soon as the modern era arrived, they became exponentially more complex, because the machines and cities themselves became elements in the story. But what made things particularly difficult here were the elements brought in by the gods of outer space. Things that the Law of Identity lacked were there.
-- ACT 13: CH 4

Repeating what you said back.
"This also explains why it is said that, as Akuto kept simulating and advancing through possibilities, he was gaining more characters and scenarios to work with."

There's nothing suggesting he gained Outer Gods as he was progressing through the stories. The text very literally says they already had their influence.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

There is no statement whatsoever about Akuto “subsuming all Outer Gods.” The Outer Gods are not under Akuto’s influence. They simply manifested within his stories to prevent him from reaching a satisfying conclusion.

Pretty sure there is.

It was the equivalent of giving birth to a new universe within himself. Of course, the tools for this universe weren’t limited to what
was inside Akuto. The gods of the outer universe, even they became a part of the story. As a result, the story became chaos.

“I’ll summon the outer gods.”
That surprised even Boichiro.
“Can you do that?”
“They’ve become stories too, or at least they should have. I don’t know if I can communicate with them on a deep level. We don’t share any stories. But it should be possible.

“They, and you, are universes. God Universes, I guess you could call them. No, you could say that until you unleashed the possibilities
of the world, you alone were like them.”

The reason Bouichirou is “not subject” to Akuto is because he is another archetype, just like Akuto. He is not a mere “soul.”

Incorrect, nobody other than them are souls.

“Right?” Akuto smiled. “But right now we’re on the same stage. I think we’re the only ones who haven’t become concepts.”
“Concepts?”

Genuinely, all this headcanon does not satisfy the burden I asked you to address. If Akuto can create any logical possibility he wants without restrictions, then:

• Why does he need to test stories if he already knows what will happen in them, since he supposedly defined them himself?

Didn't he just release possibilities solely by how characters can be arranged? Anyways, didn't all of that completely destroyed in the very Chaos and led to recreation of the stories from scratch? Why is that point ignored? After the story was formed he only had beings inside him, and the data he had to individually test possibilities of.

• Why does he need to wait for the story to progress in order to realize that the possibility he created does not work for him?

Same as above. Additionally, he is limited by his own notions of things, as I already mentioned by what Hiroshi said.

• Why is it explicitly stated that new elements were being added to his pool of elements as the stories progressed?

Just going by the quote you are referring to:

As soon as the modern era arrived, they became exponentially more complex, because the machines and cities themselves became elements in the story. But what made things particularly difficult here were the elements brought in by the gods of outer space. Things that the Law of Identity lacked were there.
-- ACT 13: CH 4

Machines and cities are not "beings" with souls or ghosts. Elements were brought by the Outer Gods, not that they are becoming elements of the world, when they already were.

If we use the Akuto from your fanfic, he should have been able to define, from the very beginning, a possible world where he was satisfied. But he could not.

Lol. No but I repeatedly have mentioned how he was empowered by the existence itself to create possibilities. Which itself is necessary as per story.

Until then, you could say that humanity shared a story. Everyone, essentially, was playing their own role in the story. That’s why the world refused to allow anybody but Akuto to alter it.

Heck any form of expression or even meeting others is done through stories. He isn't above it, neither is high 1A+(type 1) itself above logical space. Their actions are still defined by possibilities of the logical space.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:

He was being gaslit by the powerscaling guy Siperri. Either way, I already demonstrated above, with plenty of evidence, that the author has no idea about set theory, by his own admission.

In any case, you are completely shadowboxing the point, because my argument is centered on the fact that the author retconned information, something that is directly stated, and you are conveniently ignoring the second quote, which explains why that information is contradicted in later ACTs.

Again justify it. I have provided both the context of author statement and how the generalisation can literally not work for you to even assume there could have been any such retconn.

Quoting the OP’s response:


They are not different things, and my message makes that crystal clear. “Erasure” is referring to resetting the Afterlife, which is something the characters themselves tell you to your face.

And as I said and explained, "reconfiguration" is something that happens all the time in Afterlife as you suggested here. Erasing it to reset Afterlife isn't reconfiguration. There would have been no reason for Hiroshi and Boichiro to leave the place if it wasn't being erased.

And to top it all off, being the dishonest person you are, you are using a scene where Fujiko says something stupid while having no ******* idea how the Afterlife works. At that point, Akuto only knew that he could control the Afterlife with his mana, and that was it.

I didn't knew Fujuko had so much power to become the narrator.
It was keana summoned by TLOI who said not to erase the world.

That is even before the appearance of Keina TLOI.

Your intellectual dishonesty is incredible.

---

Quoting the OP’s response:
Multiple beings.

TLOI? The higher power they then walled off in Chapter 5? Huh?
Offical says higher being so I would have this double checked though.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Hello, I was asked to help here.

For now, I’ll assist with translating any texts you need. Please send all the passages that require translation.
If you have questions about any translations, feel free to include them as well, and I’ll respond to everything in one message tomorrow.

I also hope that you calm down and discuss matters calmly. If you are unable to do so, you can always summarize your arguments in a single post so they can be evaluated by the staff.
Thank you!

---

As I'm also following multiple other threads that need translation, my responses may be delayed

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Hello, I was asked to help here.

For now, I’ll assist with translating any texts you need. Please send all the passages that require translation.
If you have questions about any translations, feel free to include them as well, and I’ll respond to everything in one message tomorrow.

I also hope that you calm down and discuss matters calmly. If you are unable to do so, you can always summarize your arguments in a single post so they can be evaluated by the staff.
Thank you!

---

As I'm also following multiple other threads that need translation, my responses may be delayed

My opponent’s response does not address my points, so I am fine with ending the discussion here, because otherwise this is going to drag on for 20 pages.

---

These are my 2 responses:

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

These are debunks of Shin to the more philosophical part of the OP arguments:

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[/SPOILER] Referring to the CRT that downgraded the High 1A+ rating. [/SPOILER] One question that would arise is, what warrants this massive assumption rather than a much simpler one? The immediate reason is TLOI. One massive issue that any interpretation fails to address is why...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

---

The High 1-A+ scaling is completely unsupported, whether from the perspective of the Tiering System or from the narrative of the work itself.

If Shin wants to add anything else, he can do so.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Hello, I was asked to help here.

For now, I’ll assist with translating any texts you need. Please send all the passages that require translation.
If you have questions about any translations, feel free to include them as well, and I’ll respond to everything in one message tomorrow.

I also hope that you calm down and discuss matters calmly. If you are unable to do so, you can always summarize your arguments in a single post so they can be evaluated by the staff.
Thank you!

---

As I'm also following multiple other threads that need translation, my responses may be delayed

Can you point out @DontTalkDT ? He is one of the supporters of this work and is included in the list of experts.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyways, Blaze, add Qawsedf234 to the list of disagreements, please.

For now lost me as disagreeing with the upgrade. I don't see a reasonable cause, as argued by the OP, for High 1-A+.

Also, I would appreciate it if you could ping multiple staff members who are knowledgeable about high tiers, and not just the staff member famous for supporting the verse’s higher tiers. Thank you.

 

[AKUTO123]

Honestly this would had been better off a staff thread. Also dk what is with hostility against DKD guess Tensura isnt the only verse that had the same kind of treatment.

Staff generally not interest dkd and dkd crts surely long and has huge text walls so most of staff dosent want to join dkd crt. So if make this staff crt that maybe never gonna end ( at least until dt comes and join)

 

[AKUTO123]

I'm very curious how DT is gonna justify this, so now I'll be participating in his thread whenever it is created. This looks like an egregious wank to me.

I think DT sure espacially tloi high 1A+ ranking. And im sure he thinks differ from blaze most ot things so if he join or open a crt himself we would see

 

[AKUTO123]

However, the original poster’s evidence can establish that Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity should each possess at least infinitely many layers above the baseline in the H1A tier. This is because Akuto Sai and the Law of Identity are capable of creating logically possible worlds, albeit in a limited manner—not necessarily all of them, but still able to generate them progressively or create any logically possible world individually, even if not all at once. Based on the available evidence, both he and the Law of Identity should at least be able to produce hierarchical sequences of worlds that involve qualitative superiority, which is quite clear.

In the end, we cannot deny that he is capable of creating any logically possible world, as the texts support this. While it is true that he cannot create all logically possible worlds, it is not reasonable to place him only at the baseline level of H1A. At the very least, he should possess countless or infinite layers above that level.

Actually your interpretation little bit wrong because if you accept they can create any world that can possible its just would be -1 of high1A+ so any high 1A characters cannot be stronger them they can equal or high1A+.sure bern probably dosent agree with that idea but

 

[BlazeISbot111]

These are my replies to Qawsedf234's disagreement. I didn't receive any reply so I am not sure what the current disagreement is about.

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[/SPOILER] Referring to the CRT that downgraded the High 1A+ rating. [/SPOILER] One question that would arise is, what warrants this massive assumption rather than a much simpler one? The immediate reason is TLOI. One massive issue that any interpretation fails to address is why...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[/SPOILER] Referring to the CRT that downgraded the High 1A+ rating. [/SPOILER] One question that would arise is, what warrants this massive assumption rather than a much simpler one? The immediate reason is TLOI. One massive issue that any interpretation fails to address is why...

vsbattles.com

---

These are my replies to Berny.

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

Edit: Additional replies(more relevant to the translation of "character")

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

Honestly, I think what the thread’s author is saying actually makes sense. I assume you’re ready to be convinced by it, right?

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

Honestly, I think what the thread’s author is saying actually makes sense. I assume you’re ready to be convinced by it, right?

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

Honestly, I think what the thread’s author is saying actually makes sense. I assume you’re ready to be convinced by it, right?

vsbattles.com

---

---

These are my replies to ShinMaximillion. Most of the argument was over my mistaken conception of Aristotle's categories. It itself doesn't have anything to do with current CRT so only the argument over Logical space is relevant here.

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[/SPOILER] Referring to the CRT that downgraded the High 1A+ rating. [/SPOILER] One question that would arise is, what warrants this massive assumption rather than a much simpler one? The immediate reason is TLOI. One massive issue that any interpretation fails to address is why...

vsbattles.com

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

[/SPOILER] Referring to the CRT that downgraded the High 1A+ rating. [/SPOILER] One question that would arise is, what warrants this massive assumption rather than a much simpler one? The immediate reason is TLOI. One massive issue that any interpretation fails to address is why...

vsbattles.com

---

Lastly, it's requested the CRT too is reviewed.

---

Short summary on the arguments

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

Characters: They're referring to characters as people. Then it is settled. The High 1-A+ argument completely collapses if you accept that part.

vsbattles.com

---

My argument stems on the Inconsistency of the current standards(which have been presented in the CRT and the replies with multiple interpretations) and the rejection of context that disagrees with the downgrade, while also ignoring any questions over the inconsistency.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

Hello, I was asked to help here.

For now, I’ll assist with translating any texts you need. Please send all the passages that require translation.
If you have questions about any translations, feel free to include them as well, and I’ll respond to everything in one message tomorrow.

I also hope that you calm down and discuss matters calmly. If you are unable to do so, you can always summarize your arguments in a single post so they can be evaluated by the staff.
Thank you!

---

As I'm also following multiple other threads that need translation, my responses may be delayed

In the last paragraph, does it state "higher being" or "higher beings".

「だが、結局のところ外宇宙の神々とて虚構なんだ。ただ、自身では神、人類、幽霊の区別がつかないだけだ。上位者に教えてもらうことで、そして、ひとつの宇宙に囲いを作った時のみ、神、人類、幽霊は、はっきりと分かれる。誰の内部にあるのか理解できるようになるということだ」
望一郎の分(ぶん)析(せき)に、阿九斗は考え込んだ。
「さて……そうなると、僕はいかにして上位者に答えたらいいのか？ ということを改めて考えることになる。僕は僕の内部だけでなく、自同律の宇宙の、その全存在を救いたい。彼らを物語から解放したい。それが望みだ」

Though not necessary could you double check if the translations here are accurate.

Demon King Daimao High 1A+ CRT

At first, I was not planning to get involved with this thread, but I changed my mind after reading it and seeing that a ton of things are being taken out of context. Now I am motivated. Let’s dance, Blaze. 👩‍🦯👩‍🦯👩‍🦯 The thread, as I said before, has a ton of unnecessary information, so I am...

vsbattles.com

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Actually your interpretation little bit wrong because if you accept they can create any world that can possible its just would be -1 of high1A+ so any high 1A characters cannot be stronger them they can equal or high1A+.sure bern probably dosent agree with that idea but

The Anti-Universe would occupy the highest possible level within H1A, as it transcends the concepts of reality and fiction and represents the place where all such concepts—and everything—come to an end. Therefore, the Anti-Universe cannot be considered fictional relative to any higher world whatsoever. As a result, it would sit at the absolute peak of H1A, such that no layer, regardless of its nature, could surpass it within that tier; it would embody the very pinnacle of the tier itself.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

These are my replies to Qawsedf234's disagreement. I didn't receive any reply so I am not sure what the current disagreement is about.

Well...perhaps it's because this isn't enough for High 1-A+? These possible worlds just kinda sucks man. The cosmology itself is peculiar and interesting, though tbh, however, something doesn't have to scale high to be interesting.

Although it's better to wait for the staff now, there's nothing much to argue about it seems.

 

[BlazeISbot111]

Well...perhaps it's because this isn't enough for High 1-A+? These possible worlds just kinda sucks man.

Starmaker exists, with the only reasoning I could find being "with the range of these cosmoses even in his immature phase spanning all logical potentialities, with logic itself being stated to be all the Star Maker is limited by." I cannot find any change in quality, the lack of which— addition of qualities(edit I might be misremembering it), limits MR. No explanation of what the potentiality could encompass(besides difference in physical law which itself limits it to only Metaphysical possibilities, logical possibilities are for more broad), or how nothing regarding modal maximality seems to be argued.

This was accepted and I have yet to know why it was. There are many cases of upgrades for other tiers being accepted without much consideration for supporting evidence(Loli Yog is probably one of the worst). If you can explain what DKD lacks(assuming we accept that the possibilities aren't limited) that Starmaker has, then it would be appreciated.

The cosmology itself is peculiar and interesting, though tbh, however, something doesn't have to scale high to be interesting.

Something doesn't need to scale low for it to be interesting too. I find this quote rather short sighted, I more often see the opposite of this. People try to upscale something they do find interesting or are fan of.

Ignoring this, that what makes DKD interesting is barley present in the wiki. Story density, Solipsism and Outer Gods. Heck Voice of You/first person, the pure undifferentiated potentiality literally has significant portion dedicated to it depicting it ground everything— language, counting, time, seperation, space, first person, second person, etc. necessary for existence. But nope, we have Anti-universe as "beyond all of stories" lol. It has literally been attributed what was said about Void Universe. The author literally brushes it off as just a "passage" to pass through. Heck, even end of story, 0 density, is just a story.

The significant portion of the CRT was about these "interesting bits" that you brushed off as irrelevant.

Although it's better to wait for the staff now, there's nothing much to argue about it seems.

Yeah. Not that I expect much to accomplish.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Well...perhaps it's because this isn't enough for High 1-A+? These possible worlds just kinda sucks man. The cosmology itself is peculiar and interesting, though tbh, however, something doesn't have to scale high to be interesting.

Although it's better to wait for the staff now, there's nothing much to argue about it seems.

Honestly, I think what the thread’s author is saying actually makes sense. I assume you’re ready to be convinced by it, right?