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We already do scale OG manga stuff with super content in mind ( planet Vegetas destruction)
The ratings only fall apart if we become manga purists.
The ratings only fall apart if we become manga purists.
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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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But would it backscale to DBS Manga since it follows the DBZ Manga? Like... Daima ain't canon to the DBS Manga is it? Maybe i missed some thread or interview or something tho
Eden_Warlock99
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Shin and Majin Kuu were doing the same despite being leagues weaker than everyone there so ???
Do we think Roshi is = to Gohan lol
Rn they're both treated as canon continuations of the original manga, just alternate continuations.
So if I'm understanding it correctly, the stuff in them applies to the og manga (See Kid Goku's Blessed), but they themselves don't mesh together.
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GodlyCharmander
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Do you want us to go into the story and cite every time a character blitzes another until we get to 17, just because you can't buy it?
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Shin could've gotten stronger. And we don't really know HOW strong Kuu is. He's definitely above Glorio and Shin. But like I said, it's clear Gomah wasn't going full power. To what extent he was holding back? We have no clue.
No? Because Gohan is directly shown to be stronger than Roshi. You just showed a picture of all of them getting stomped and compared that to Daima explicitly showing characters superiority over others. Which still happens in Daima. We have no reason to believe Kuu would lose to shin. Or maybe he would and I'm just misremembering. For example, Piccolo is apart of the "big 3" which is with Vegeta and Goku in their Super Saiyan states at the least. We don't have the same for Shin really outside of him simply attacking with the others. Are you gonna sit here and believe that Shin would have did just as good as Goku did against Duu? Of course not. That's absurd. Since Glorio, Piccolo, and Shin attack alongside SS4 Daimaku, does that mean they scale? No.Do we think Roshi is = to Gohan lol
Yeah and Super is so obviously the main one. It's still going on, just on hiatus. And Beerus was first introduced in Z. He also would exist in Daima. So my argument holds up REGARDLESS.
GodlyCharmander
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If we use it to justify Vegito, at least... It can be interesting.
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It’d be a start.
GodlyCharmander
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Fun Fact: I have a legit reason to separate DBS Anime from Kai.
Eden_Warlock99
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How would he have gotten stronger? He's not a saiyan, he didn't train. There is not a single in-verse mechanic to justify Shin getting stronger.
In fact it's even emphasized that Glorio (One that was apparently holding back) is stronger than ADULT Shin. In no way is Mini Shin comparable to SSJ Goku and Vegeta lol
I also said Kuu because one of his defining features was that he was too weak to scratch Tamagami 1, the lad who was also getting tossed around by Gomah in that fight.
Clearly, Gomah wasn't hitting them all the same level of power, or else Shin and Kuu. Would. Be. Dead.
We know Goku along with Vegeta are the strongest guys around by Daima, the narrator says that outright.
Piccolo at best would be the third strongest, behind a Daima Goku who hasn't unlocked SSJ4 yet and a Daima Vegeta who hasn't unlocked SSJ3 yet.
That's to say weaker than Vegito. Like going by our ratings rn that's weaker than Vegito.
Fezzih_007
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What's that's?
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@Killerdrone123
vsbattles.com
To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision
Well hello everyone I am back with another crt the objective of this crt would be to prove why DBZ Kai is canon to DBS anime First let me lay some base for the argument in Dragon ball Super we can see them using flash backs from the anime for some scenes in super 1)In Dragon ball super...
Saqphire
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Yes if you want to prove 17 being faster than BOZ Goku since it's self-evident apparently, no if you want to prove he is a gazillion times faster because that's calc stacking. Hencewhy there was an independent feat requested for him
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Did Shin tell you that? Cool. Also, I didn't know you had to be a Saiyan to get stronger. Interesting.
Feats. Took a bunch of hits from a more powerful enemy than he has ever face, and kept up with characters stronger than one's he was afraid of previously.
Obviously Shin is stronger than Glorio. That's why he told Goku to go all out to see what he was made of in case they needed to slam him. At that point, Shin was suspicious of Glorio's loyalty. In terms of durability which equals AP, they are both able to take around the same amount of Damage. And also, we don't know how much stronger Shin is than Glorio. He could just be vaguely stronger.
Tamagami 1, the strongest one. Not even an Anti-Feat.
Everyone was getting tossed by Gomah.
Or he was and they just weren't enough to kill right away. He can be holding back and still dishing out extremely powerful attacks. Both can be true.
Vegeta had Super Saiyan 3 unlocked. Bulma literally said he's been training ever since the Buu Saga. He had it the entire time. He simply didn't use it until he absolutely needed to.
Yeah which might not be entirely right. It all depends on how much Gomah was holding back here.
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Saqphire
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Should be nuked too as that's from stacking. Also that's a diabolical downscale for Tien and Goku if those lasers are actually light lmfao
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Opps coming into the thread to poison the well and make fools of themselves as they confidently proclaim themselves as the reasonable logical ones never gets old
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'dragon ball doesn't get any scrutiny and uhhh supporters are toxic and unwholesome chungus'
drops worst set of arguments that can be conceivably be dropped
drops worst set of arguments that can be conceivably be dropped
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Its been a thing since 2020. They can't bureaucracy their way into preventing upgrades anymore. All they have left is being obtuse.
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Shouldn't the time be less than 30 minutes? I mean, Elder Kai says it when it's Buutenks
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I actually have a sandbox blog about the continuity of the Dragon Ball Super anime.
GodlyCharmander
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Sigh.
FINE. Currently we accept that, outside of edge cases, power and speed increase proportionally.
Accept that: The story has established that a gap in power level as little as 18000 to 24000, a gap that's canonically linear thanks to the Kaioken, is enough for a blitz to occur. This is also proven true when Frieza, having almost twice his power in his second form, was able to blitz Vegeta, whom he was able to contend with in his first form. So it is narratively sound to claim a gap between 1.33x to 2x canonically allows for a speed blitz. This is even consistent in the Cell Saga, where Gohan was on par with Perfect Cell in terms of speed, but turned a stomp around with a 2x multiplier. We will use 1.33x so you have better odds, okay?
- Goku has a power level of 416.
- Raditz has a power level of 1500.
- Raditz can blitz Goku and Piccolo.
- It takes Gohan, who has a power three times higher than his father, to land a solid hit on Raditz.
- It is canonically significant that Raditz is overwhelmingly faster, and it is also canonical that he is at least 1.33x to 3x faster than Goku to do what he did.
- After training in the other world, Goku canonically got 20x stronger. I can pretend this isn't a story-relevant power increase, but I won't. Current Goku is canonically 20x faster than his Raditz Arc self.
- As established by @Qawsedf234, the Kaioken is a narratively relevant to the story, it multiplies speed and power, and that multiplication is literally the only reason Goku can contend with Vegeta at all. This is yet another canonical multiplication of speed in the story, the story itself considers Goku 4x faster than his base self in Kaioken x4, meaning he is 80x faster than his Raditz Arc self. CANONICALLY.
- During Namek, Goku has a power level of 90000. We don't have any evidence that the gap between 32000 to 90000 is canonically linear, but the story does say his strength increased 10-fold. This power level is canonical, so the story considers this Goku as 200x faster than his Raditz Arc self.
- Goku can multiply that speed by 10 times with Kaioken. So the story canonically considers this Goku 2000x faster than his Raditz Arc self.
- Second form Frieza has a power level of 1 million, making it higher than Goku's 900,000.
- Third Form Frieza is a whole blitz tier above Piccolo-Nail, who could contend with Second Form Frieza, and each passing transformation multiplies Frieza's power several times. I think it's fair to say Third Form Frieza is at least twice as fast, if not more, than Second Form Frieza. Based on what we have established by the story itself, the story canonically considers this Frieza 4000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku
- Of course, Goku, with his power level of 3 million, is at least that fast as well. 4000x, approximately.
- We know Goku canonically multiplies his speed 20x, it's the only reason why Goku can fight 50% Frieza in the first place. 80000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku, canonically, that HAS to be true for the story to work.
- If Frieza is using 50% of his power, that means he's using 50% of his speed as well. At full power, he would need to exert twice as much speed. The fact Frieza uses 50% of his power is canonical to the story, and again, is the only reason Goku is able to fight him for so long. Frieza is 160,000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku canonically, that has to be true for the story to WORK.
- Super Saiyan Goku has a 50x multiplier, consistent with the fact he wasn't exactly blitzing FP Frieza (1.25x gap), but he was still faster, so he is 200,000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku.
- While Future Gohan was not as strong as Post-Yardrat Goku, he was still stronger than a Future Trunks that could decimate Mecha Frieza.
- Future 17 can blitz Gohan with half his power, meaning his full power would need to be at least twice as fast, meaning Future 17 is canonically 400,000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku
- Current 17 is so much stronger than his Future version that Trunks straight up can't fight him despite being able to do so against the future versions. Current 17 is notable for his speed, and can blitz Trunks. Realistically, 17 is probably >530,000x faster than Raditz Arc Goku.
All these multipliers have to be true for the story to FUNCTION.
Now anyone who knows DB scaling won't be impressed with the text I sent above. Why? Because it's literally all in the speed blog already. The fact 17 is thousands of times faster than Beginning of Z Goku is already a necessity for the story. That's what's LITERALLY established.
Enough for you? Literally why are you debating about a verse you know NOTHING about?
Breadbear83
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Literally what I proposed some pages ago, the current calc for DBZ Toei speed scaling of Goku dodging rocks while riding his space ship, uses distance to Andromeda Galaxy by assuming the north galaxy is a mere galaxy, that the outside of it from earth (in this case namek) is merely the distance to the nearest galaxy (Andromeda Galaxy)
Not only the galaxy quadrants are actually multiple (countless) of galaxies, but even would be infinite in size by being a part of the infinite universe
I'm gonna make the CRT about it tomorrow, either propose those high ends of namek being a billions of lightyears away from earth, or the fact that infinite speed may be possible (problematic scaling tho)
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The problem with High End is that the map is not to scale, And I'm talking about manga.
Eden_Warlock99
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Can add the stuff about the Z-fighters all training and becoming faster/stronger than Raditz in the 1 year timeskip, then all getting decimated by Nappa who himself got humiliated by Goku's speed when he arrives.
And how this Goku was even blitzing Burter who was so fast the Namek crew couldn't even see him arrive on the scene.
This section of the arc also made a point of how no one besides Vegeta could react to Suppressed Final Form Frieza's death beams, just being a flash of light to them, and then Goku appears and swats a dozen of them away lol
GodlyCharmander
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True
The Namek Crew is slower than Kaioken x4 Goku, this isn't really relevant, unfortunately.
Could add another 1.33x multiplier to Zenkai Goku then.
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Shouldn't Goku be twice the faster and stronger than Burter/Jeece?, I mean, each one is comparable, and Goku was able to fight both of them
GodlyCharmander
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Goku is more than twice as fast as these two. That's already established just by being 10x faster than his Saiyan Saga self
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Ok, Pretty good
Breadbear83
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It probably would be calc stacking using the calc of a spaceship to a character reacting to the speed of another spaceship later on in the series, even if it's likely the general spaceships of freezas empire are around the same
Even if the universe map isnt to literally scale, it does shows the earth and namek are a considerably far away from each other, supporting that they would be billions of lightyears away
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But like, we have only ONE Manga DBZ Profile... which continuity would we base THAT profile off? Daima or Super? Can't use bothShin and Majin Kuu were doing the same despite being leagues weaker than everyone there so ???
Do we think Roshi is = to Gohan lol
Rn they're both treated as canon continuations of the original manga, just alternate continuations.
So if I'm understanding it correctly, the stuff in them applies to the og manga (See Kid Goku's Blessed), but they themselves don't mesh together.
Nullflowerblush
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Hey, everybody here knows Battle Power is Ki, right? Like the unit which Scouters read is a numerical measurement of the size of one's Ki. And only Ki.
Saqphire
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Hah okay, whatever you say man
I know that speed increases when power levels do, that was never refuted. However whether they increase 1:1 is from a potentially faulty translation as in the volume version of the panel as well as the RAWS (feel free to ask a tl helper for that, this is just a rough translation), Vegeta doesn't ask himself if speed increases along with it, he just says that since his power level rises, his speed also does. The semantics here matters because "along with" implies their amps would be similar, where as without it, they both just get amped but we wouldn't know how much the ratio for the speed and strength would be in the verse.
So if we cannot assert for sure that Dragon Ball characters get 3x faster when they get 3x stronger for example, you cannot use statements such as:
.
And so on. In fact, the entire chain talks about power quantifiably and not speed, leaving them to Kaioken and Vegetas statement as just them getting amped and as such they'd all be unquantifiably faster as a result (and that's if the Vegeta statement (and the Goku one for that matter) do not talk about a 1:1 amp which I honestly don't think they do. The Kaioken is explicitly stated to amp speed indeed, but the ratio relies on Vegeta's statement to mean a 1:1 amp, so it falls under this clause as well.
The second main thing one gotta counter really is this part, because if this argument doesn't work, then the rest of the chain is bunk.The story has established that a gap in power level as little as 18000 to 24000, a gap that's canonically linear thanks to the Kaioken, is enough for a blitz to occur. This is also proven true when Frieza, having almost twice his power in his second form, was able to blitz Vegeta, whom he was able to contend with in his first form. So it is narratively sound to claim a gap between 1.33x to 2x canonically allows for a speed blitz. This is even consistent in the Cell Saga, where Gohan was on par with Perfect Cell in terms of speed, but turned a stomp around with a 2x multiplier. We will use 1.33x so you have better odds, okay?
Power levels in the series have consistently been shown and stated multiple times by Akira to be extremely inconsistent in regards to their portrayals (the most important parts to mention is that they were made simply to make people understand of a strength gap instead of an exact mathematical estimate, and that he abandoned them for ki amps mid-Saiyan Saga because he didn't want fans to just read the power levels and conclude who would win from that), and the multiplier standards that yall wanna skip so badly clearly states that they must always be reliable. Unreliable multipliers get thrown out so yeah.
Since you claim they are linear and wanna upscale people from them because you claim the story cannot work otherwise, let's backscale them to the farmer at the start of Z who has a PL of 5, shall we.
Raditz is currently Relativistic+ (0.54c) and he's 300x stronger than the farmer as a result. Downscaling leads the farmer's combat speed to be Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1583.20), meaning he'd be faster than any gun ever, even his own shotgun if we pull a sanity check. This is a clear contradiction of scale in the verse that other verses have had their multipliers rejected for (no, this aint whataboutism, it's me demanding consistency) as normal humans aren't normally MHS+
Before I get called out for being "disingenious" for using the farmer, this is far from it. This line of logic not only justifies that 1:1 speed scaling using power levels aren't internally consistent both ways, it also has the conclusion of fodder characters being absurdly fast for no reason (and also absurdly strong, but that's another topic). As such, they shouldn't be used for chain scales at all, but rather as a vague estimate for who is stronger than who prior to the introduction of Ki amps
Conclusively, I will grant you that Super C17 is faster than BOZ Goku though thanks to a proper explanation unlike getting shit like "It's sooo obvious dude" from asking, but this should be from feats shown, instead of unreliable multiplier ratios as a "blitz tier".
Established =/= irrefutable, for the record.
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Nullflowerblush
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Technology in Dragon Ball simply scales differently than technology in the real world. I mean, Beginning of Series Goku is only twice as powerful as a normal adult, and, realistically, Tournament Saga Goku backscales from Jackie Chun's moon destruction by only a factor of ten.
Saqphire
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Yeah so they're not even consistent with themselves if we are mathematically precise with them. Also if the technology argument is meant to be a rebuttal, this is not shown at all. I mean I could've granted that if the weapon was from Capsule Corp, but that's not even the case here
GodlyCharmander
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I don't care. Make a CRT if you want to debunk what's currently accepted.
We can, that's literally the current accepted state of the verse. That's literally the current speed blog. I beg you to stop wasting time pretending like the statement is in some sort of neutral state. It's not. It's already accepted. The Kaioken is also evidence, the Vegeta line isn't even the only thing this scaling relies on.
The kaioken chain talks about power? Are you sure? Also, yes
Can you read the verse page, please?
Aka, I don't care if you dislike what's currently accepted. This is RELIABLE EVIDENCE, and you will have to make a CRT to debunk it.
You know we can read, right? NEITHER OF THOSE LINKS HAVE AKIRA SAYING THE POWER LEVELS WERE INCONSISTENT. This is him talking about how he might decide to change how he scales his characters as he writes. That's not the same as "contradicting what he already establishes", this is writing Tien vs Goku, and then deciding that they are equal in power, where he might've decided earlier that Goku would have an advantage. He even says the numbers were supposed to make things EASIER.
IN FACT:
This literally TELLS you that Power levels were TOO GOOD TO USE in the story because they made battles too predictable.
Also, the "change due to ki" means ki control, Trunks being able to go from a 5 BP to "insta-kill" in a heartbeat, not about it being inconsistent.
Prove it's unreliable then, all you've done so far is lie about the series. Can you prove a single example?
You're being intentionally obtuse and ignorant.
Downscaling is not reliable because Battle Power below 400 units is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. No one accepts it as linear. The wiki doesn't accept it as linear, I literally call out the fact WE NEED EVIDENCE of it being linear for certain gaps. You're strawmanning me, and I suspect it's on purpose.
No one is arguing that, and every upscaling I've used has a CANONICAL REASON for it to be true, and a NECESSITY IN THE STORY for it to be true
You're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. In your example I can provide so many contradictions that it would be ridiculous, in the whole chain I used, you can ressurrect Akira Toriyama himself and he wouldn't be able to find one.
It doesn't. Battle Power only gets linear after 400 units. We have proof of it, we also have ample proof that 2x multipliers in OG DB didn't cause a 2x multiplication in BP, while at the same time having ample proof that a 2x multiplier DOES cause a 2x multiplication in BP in Z and beyond.
Meet potential downscaler
They call 'em 007
0 evidence of multipliers being unreliable
0 anti-feats
7 strawman replies.
Then make a CRT.[/QUOTE]
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