All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[GodlyCharmander]

However whether they increase 1:1 is from a potentially faulty translation

I don't care. Make a CRT if you want to debunk what's currently accepted.

So if we cannot assert for sure

We can, that's literally the current accepted state of the verse. That's literally the current speed blog. I beg you to stop wasting time pretending like the statement is in some sort of neutral state. It's not. It's already accepted. The Kaioken is also evidence, the Vegeta line isn't even the only thing this scaling relies on.

the entire chain talks about power

The kaioken chain talks about power? Are you sure? Also, yes

Can you read the verse page, please?

#Note 1:

The consensus is that the Kaio-ken multipliers are fully applicable to speed. Additionally, the official speed multipliers of 50x, 100x, and 400x for Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and Super Saiyan 3 forms, respectively, are accepted on this site for scaling purposes. According to the Daizenshuu and the Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide, Super Saiyan is officially a 50x multiplier. Similarly, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 are 100x and 400x, respectively, in the Super Exciting Guide, and more recently in Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot. Oozaru is officially a 10x multiplier in the manga and the Dragon Ball Super Exciting Guide as well. However, more than that, SSJ is consistent with the showings in the manga as a 50x speed multiplier specifically. Goku using Kaioken x10 was being outpaced by 50% Frieza, and even Kaioken x20 while using a Kamehameha was at best equal to 50% Frieza's speed, yet using SSJ allowed Goku to speed blitz 50% Frieza, and even have an edge in speed over 100% Frieza. Therefore, it is highly consistent with the 50x multiplier assigned to it. This applies to Oozaru as well, which is consistent with its showings as a 10x multiplier, with Goku commenting that Vegeta was extremely fast and even with Kaio-ken x5 he wouldn't stand a chance. However, while there is undeniable speed increase, as Vegeta would have to be at least two times faster to beat out the Kaioken x5, this testimony is contradicted by the more recent DBS: Broly, (saying it is quite slow, “sluggish,”) and thus only will be used in calculations of power.

#Note 2:

It has been stated numerous times across various sources in the series that a larger ki means greater statistics – statistics such as strength,and overall power, speed, aerial capabilities, destructive capacity, and defense.

Aka, I don't care if you dislike what's currently accepted. This is RELIABLE EVIDENCE, and you will have to make a CRT to debunk it.

stated multiple times by Akira

You know we can read, right? NEITHER OF THOSE LINKS HAVE AKIRA SAYING THE POWER LEVELS WERE INCONSISTENT. This is him talking about how he might decide to change how he scales his characters as he writes. That's not the same as "contradicting what he already establishes", this is writing Tien vs Goku, and then deciding that they are equal in power, where he might've decided earlier that Goku would have an advantage. He even says the numbers were supposed to make things EASIER.

IN FACT:

My number-one goal in coming up with it was because, if an opponent’s strength could be seen as a number, it would be very easy for the readers to understand when I put it in the comic. However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

This literally TELLS you that Power levels were TOO GOOD TO USE in the story because they made battles too predictable.

Also, the "change due to ki" means ki control, Trunks being able to go from a 5 BP to "insta-kill" in a heartbeat, not about it being inconsistent.

Unreliable multipliers get thrown out so yeah.

Prove it's unreliable then, all you've done so far is lie about the series. Can you prove a single example?

Since you claim they are linear and wanna upscale people from them because you claim the story cannot work otherwise, let's backscale them to the farmer at the start of Z who has a PL of 5, shall we.

You're being intentionally obtuse and ignorant.

Downscaling is not reliable because Battle Power below 400 units is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. No one accepts it as linear. The wiki doesn't accept it as linear, I literally call out the fact WE NEED EVIDENCE of it being linear for certain gaps. You're strawmanning me, and I suspect it's on purpose.

Raditz is currently Relativistic+ (0.54c) and he's 300x stronger than the farmer as a result. Downscaling leads the farmer's combat speed to be Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1583.20),

No one is arguing that, and every upscaling I've used has a CANONICAL REASON for it to be true, and a NECESSITY IN THE STORY for it to be true

You're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. In your example I can provide so many contradictions that it would be ridiculous, in the whole chain I used, you can ressurrect Akira Toriyama himself and he wouldn't be able to find one.

This line of logic not only justifies that 1:1 speed scaling using power levels aren't internally consistent

It doesn't. Battle Power only gets linear after 400 units. We have proof of it, we also have ample proof that 2x multipliers in OG DB didn't cause a 2x multiplication in BP, while at the same time having ample proof that a 2x multiplier DOES cause a 2x multiplication in BP in Z and beyond.

unreliable multiplier

Meet potential downscaler

They call 'em 007

0 evidence of multipliers being unreliable
0 anti-feats
7 strawman replies.

Established =/= irrefutable, for the record

Then make a CRT.[/QUOTE]

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Are we seriously powerscaling the farmer with a shotgun lol

Legit one of the most disingenuous arguments one could ever use.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Are we seriously powerscaling the farmer with a shotgun lol

Won't even hold you.

Like all other entries, DB Official Site's Weekly ☆ Character Showcase entry for the Farmer with a Battle Power of 5 includes a preview for the upcoming entry: First Form Frieza, who is described as the character who "has a Power Level 106,000 times greater than this poor old farmer's!" (530,000). More curiously, though, the Japanese version says: 戦闘力5のおじさんの106000倍強いあの人, which is "the person 106,000 times stronger than the old man with a Battle Power of 5"; as in, Frieza does not simply possess a Battle Power reading 106,000 times higher than the farmer's, his actual strength is 106,000 times greater than the farmer's.

The farmer explicitly and officially downscales from Frieza by 106,000 times.

 

[Saqphire]

I don't care. Make a CRT if you want to debunk what's currently accepted.

Aka, I don't care if you dislike what's currently accepted. This is RELIABLE EVIDENCE, and you will have to make a CRT to debunk it.

Then make a CRT.

Fine. Their practicality is getting nuked by M3X anyway as they're apart of the speed inflation but I guess I could nuke the 1:1 assumption as well.

We can, that's literally the current accepted state of the verse. That's literally the current speed blog. I beg you to stop wasting time pretending like the statement is in some sort of neutral state. It's not. It's already accepted. The Kaioken is also evidence, the Vegeta line isn't even the only thing this scaling relies on.

Accepted arguments don't mean sh*t because they're not under some sort of discussion rule once they are. They can be refuted.

The kaioken chain talks about power? Are you sure? Also, yes

Cool strawman. The entire chain you sent has statements only talking about quantifiable power amps and not quantifiable speed amps, they assume power = speed and you just ignored the argument against that assumption by saying "I don't care, make a CRT"

Can you read the verse page, please?

All of these statements talk about power and they all assume a 1:1 linearity (none of them ever say that and some of them I even linked myself)

You know we can read, right? NEITHER OF THOSE LINKS HAVE AKIRA SAYING THE POWER LEVELS WERE INCONSISTENT. This is him talking about how he might decide to change how he scales his characters as he writes. That's not the same as "contradicting what he already establishes", this is writing Tien vs Goku, and then deciding that they are equal in power, where he might've decided earlier that Goku would have an advantage. He even says the numbers were supposed to make things EASIER.

The entire idea is that power levels aren't meant by Akira to be actual precise differences, just estimates and something he abandons early on in Z. The Tien vs. Goku fight is not correlated to the other statement about scouters

This literally TELLS you that Power levels were TOO GOOD TO USE in the story because they made battles too predictable.

That's not what he said.

However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

Meaning he didn't want people to predict the winner solely because of power levels which is why he introduced ki control, meaning once their Ki could change, their strength and speed would be unknown to keep the tensions high.

Prove it's unreliable then, all you've done so far is lie about the series. Can you prove a single example?

You're being intentionally obtuse and ignorant.

Accusing me of lying, being obtuse and ignorant (twice)... noted.

Downscaling is not reliable because Battle Power below 400 units is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. No one accepts it as linear. The wiki doesn't accept it as linear, I literally call out the fact WE NEED EVIDENCE of it being linear for certain gaps. You're strawmanning me, and I suspect it's on purpose.

So basically it's accepted as pick and choose. That seems like a very blatant case of "hide the outlier" but sure, that's also noted.

No one is arguing that, and every upscaling I've used has a CANONICAL REASON for it to be true, and a NECESSITY IN THE STORY for it to be true

That's only if the assumption was true, which you refused to attack.

You're just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks. In your example I can provide so many contradictions that it would be ridiculous, in the whole chain I used, you can ressurrect Akira Toriyama himself and he wouldn't be able to find one.

Another accusatory claim... also noted.

It doesn't. Battle Power only gets linear after 400 units. We have proof of it

Is that stated? Or is that another pick and choose thing?

we also have ample proof that 2x multipliers in OG DB didn't cause a 2x multiplication in BP, while at the same time having ample proof that a 2x multiplier DOES cause a 2x multiplication in BP in Z and beyond.

OG multipliers are relevant for power levels in Z how exactly? They weren't conceptualised back then (and neither was Beerus, for yall who use the Boo statement)

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Won't even hold you.

Potentially Tier 4 farmer with a shotgun let's go thanks Null this is probably your most meaningful upgrade yet

 

[TiltedFN]

Fine. Their practicality is getting nuked by M3X anyway as they're apart of the speed inflation but I guess I could nuke the 1:1 assumption as well.

Accepted arguments don't mean sh*t because they're not under some sort of discussion rule once they are. They can be refuted.

Cool strawman. The entire chain you sent has statements only talking about quantifiable power amps and not quantifiable speed amps, they assume power = speed and you just ignored the argument against that assumption by saying "I don't care, make a CRT"

All of these statements talk about power and they all assume a 1:1 linearity (none of them ever say that and some of them I even linked myself)

The entire idea is that power levels aren't meant by Akira to be actual precise differences, just estimates and something he abandons early on in Z. The Tien vs. Goku fight is not correlated to the other statement about scouters

That's not what he said.

Meaning he didn't want people to predict the winner solely because of power levels which is why he introduced ki control, meaning once their Ki could change, their strength and speed would be unknown to keep the tensions high.


Accusing me of lying, being obtuse and ignorant (twice)... noted.

So basically it's accepted as pick and choose. That seems like a very blatant case of "hide the outlier" but sure, that's also noted.

That's only if the assumption was true, which you refused to attack.

Another accusatory claim... also noted.

Is that stated? Or is that another pick and choose thing?

OG multipliers are relevant for power levels in Z how exactly? They weren't conceptualised back then (and neither was Beerus, for yall who use the Boo statement)

We literally had this same argument here which got rejected (well it was closed but literally nobody agreed with it because it's dumb). It is 1:1. The Kaioken proves that lmao. Just a literal increase in battle power. Please stop being silly for the sake of it.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

So besides disingenuous framing there hasn't been any good argument against higher ki equaling a boost in all stats, it's just been posturing.

Any times there is any sort of example of something going against that, it is always seen as some unusual and noteworthy, being treated like an exception to the rule in universe.

This is basically just being pissy and antagonistic dressed up as an argument.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

They can be refuted

Not on a random discussion. My arguments went from a point of what's currently accepted as valid evidence, your personal take on it doesn't matter to this debate in the slightest.

All of these statements talk about power and they all assume a 1:1 linearity

Because we currenly accept them as 1:1 power in the verse page.

Cool strawman. The entire chain you sent

The chain I sent has Kaioken as its reasoning:

As established by @Qawsedf234, the Kaioken is a narratively relevant to the story, it multiplies speed and power

you just ignored the argument against that assumption

Your counter-point only addresses the Vegeta line, which proves you don't even know the reasoning behind why we accept it, why would I engage in an argument that doesn't even cover the full set of argumentation, and if I'm already in a position where power = speed is accepted.

Like literally why would I care if you disagree with what the wiki has established?

The entire idea is that power levels aren't meant by Akira to be actual precise differences.

That's not what your link state, he just said he plans something, and does some things on the go.

Meaning he didn't want people to predict the winner solely because of power levels which is why he introduced ki control

If he doesn't want people to predict the winner based on power levels, that means the power levels were an accurate method of predicting strength.

Accusing me of lying, being obtuse and ignorant

You stated: "Power levels are stated multiple times by Akira to be extremely inconsistent"

Akira claimed: "I don't plan the power balance, and power levels make fights too predictable"

You actively lied about what he said.

So basically it's accepted as pick and choose

No, it's accepted as "they behave consistently after they are introduced, and they break if you try to use them when they weren't conceptualized". You want to ignore and pretend all the evidence for consistency doesn't exist in the series where they are relevant, because of downscaling to a series that didn't consider them, and you think you're being reasonable.

I find that really funny. I also find funny the idea that you will debunk what has been debated for decades in this site using the same evidence you have available for yourself. Surely you won't repeat the exact same arguments used by opposition in the past, and get immediately shut down by supporters who have known how to debunk them for almost 10 years.

That's only if the assumption was true

I don't know what's hard to understand that we're debating on standards that are already accepted. I don't need to double-proof my position if it's already accepted as the correct one.

Another accusatory claim

Oh yeah. Sure.

"The gap between Raditz to Farm guy with a shot gun is linear because I say it is" vs "The gap between BP 8000 to 32000 is linear because of an establish technique that proves it" is the same argument, no differences at all. Surely I lied.

Is that stated? Or is that another pick and choose thing?

BP behaves linearly in every situation without fail after 400 units, where it's canon, it's thought about, and it's used in the story.
It doesn't behave linearly below 400 units because BP didn't exist back then and there was no concern for its consistency.

It's literally a reasonable conclusion drawn from evidence of the show, that you want to discard because you dislike it very very much

OG multipliers are relevant for power levels in Z how exactly

OG multipliers are stated in the manga itself. Piccolo is said to have gotten "several times stronger" than King Piccolo despite not even having twice as much BP, meaning it's definitive proof that below a certain threshold, multipliers are not linear with BP.

 

[Gp972]

Doesn't this confirm that they increase 1:1?

 

[Kellex]

106000 times

Aw yeah, it's time for tier 5-A farmer with a shotgun! /j

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Won't even hold you.

Come on man...

"来週のキャラクターは、戦闘力5のおじさんの106000倍強いあの人！"

"Next week’s character is that person who’s over 106,000 times stronger than the old man with a battle power of 5!"

The original JP phrase refers to the Battle Power as the means of comparison here. That's why the official English version translates it to "106000x the power level". Because that's what it means. The Japanese sentence already defines what is being multiplied.

The phrase, grammatically, “戦闘力5のおじさん” is the full comparison target. That noun phrase does not describe some abstract “overall strength” detached from the number. It specifically identifies “the old man with a battle power of 5.” The number 5 is embedded directly into the noun phrase as an attributive modifier. In Japanese, when 倍 (“times”) is used, it multiplies the referenced quantity or state attached to the comparison target. So “106000倍強い” means “106,000 times stronger than” the immediately preceding target, which is the old man whose measurable battle power is 5. The sentence never separates “strength” from “battle power.” In fact, the only quantified metric present in the sentence is the battle power value itself. Claiming the statement refers to some vague “general strength” instead of the numerical reading requires ignoring the grammatical structure of the sentence and inventing a distinction the text never makes.

If the writer intended to say the character merely surpasses the farmer in a loose qualitative sense, there would be no reason to specify “battle power 5” at all.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

-snip-

I don't know if you know this or not, but the Multi-Form splits his entire physical body in quarters. I'd imagine his physical stats would be equally split.

 

[TiltedFN]

I don't know if you know this or not, but the Multi-Form splits his entire physical body in quarters. I'd imagine his physical stats would be equally split.

I think you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say. Do you even know what's being argued?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't know if you know this or not, but the Multi-Form splits his entire physical body in quarters. I'd imagine his physical stats would be equally split.

The Multi-Form technique doesn't split actual mass, it only splits ki (the forms aren't noted to be lighter, that would make them proportionally just as agile).

That's useful evidence that Ki treats speed and strength as 1:1

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If the writer intended to say the character merely surpasses the farmer in a loose qualitative sense, there would be no reason to specify “battle power 5” at all.

The "Battle Power 5" is part of the farmer's title. He is "the farmer with a Power Level of 5". Like in Legends, where he is referred to as "Farmer With a Power Level of 5".

I think you completely misunderstood what he was trying to say. Do you even know what's being argued?

Y'know what, I can't think of any reason why cloning himself would lower his stats unless it was because he was dividing energy amongst his clones, so I concede.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The "Battle Power 5" is part of the farmer's title. He is "the farmer with a Power Level of 5". Like in Legends, where he is referred to as "Farmer With a Power Level of 5".

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doesn't this confirm that they increase 1:1?

FUN FACT:

In the original raws, Goku says "power", instead of "strength"

おめえらしくねえ 失敗だったな 天津飯・・・ 4人になったのは すげえ作戦だったけどさ ひとりの力を 4人に分けたから 攻撃も守りも スピードも ぜんぶ4分の1の力に なっちゃったもんな

"Not like you to mess up like this, Tien... Splitting into four was an amazing strategy, but since you divided one person’s power among four bodies, your attack power, defense, and speed all ended up becoming one fourth of their original strength."

"ひとりの力"
"Chikara", power of one person.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Is that supposed to mean something significant?

 

[BoastJr]

Is that supposed to mean something significant?

They are probably arguing Power = Speed, Attack, Defense because its a Ki related Reinforcement on your Body

Then equating it as a overall linear stat growth in other circumstances. Just my guess

 

[Nullflowerblush]

They are probably arguing Power = Speed, Attack, Defense because its a Ki related Reinforcement on your Body

Right, but he knows the word "power", if used to describe Ki power, is generally ryoku—like in Battle Power or "Sentō Ryoku"—not chikara.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Right, but he knows the word "power", if used to describe Ki power, is generally ryoku—like in Battle Power or "Sentō Ryoku"—not chikara.

"戦闘力" = Battle Power

戦闘力 is pronounced “sentōryoku,” and the 力 there is read as “ryoku”

Ryoku and Chikara are the fundamentally the same concept. You're treating them like separate words with unrelated meanings. They are different readings of the same kanji.

And ki levels are often read as "chikara" as well, in phrases like 「すごい力だ」| “An incredible power.” Literally.

Chikara absolutely means battle power just like sentōryoku

 

[Saqphire]

I guess I didn't need to make a CRT for the 1:1 stuffs

 

[Robo432343]

I am heartbroken that multipliers have been abused like this for so long
@Killerdrone123 @Shar122 @LuffyRuffy46307 @Fraudalert69 @CelestialVortex01 @MeiouHades

And you guys never said anything?

 

[M3X_2.0]

LMFAOOOO

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I guess I didn't need to make a CRT for the 1:1 stuffs

Neither the OP nor agreeing with Chariot changes the 1:1 stuff, it just removes the stacking.

 

[Robo432343]

I mean
I just
This is crazy
What other wanks are you guys hiding???

 

[Saqphire]

I mean
I just
This is crazy
What other wanks are you guys hiding???

Somebody being weaker than a small nuke comes to mind...

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

I am heartbroken that multipliers have been abused like this for so long
@Killerdrone123 @Shar122 @LuffyRuffy46307 @Fraudalert69 @CelestialVortex01 @MeiouHades

And you guys never said anything?

lol bro is pearl clutching

 

[GodlyCharmander]

lol bro is pearl clutching

Like bro wasn't aware of the gap between multipliers and feats this whole time.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Somebody being weaker than a small nuke comes to mind...

I would say there is no way someone could unironically think something so stupid but you said Dragon Ball gets what it wants on this site which is among the dumbest shit I've ever heard

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Opps be coming in openly antagonistic, (they can get away with it because they can just vouch for each other in RVR later), and act like supporters never have to deal with shit, like bro we are dealing with you

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Somebody being weaker than a small nuke comes to mind...

Who even is this

 

[Saqphire]

I would say there is no way someone could unironically think something so stupid but you said Dragon Ball gets what it wants on this site which is among the dumbest shit I've ever heard

It was a month ago. Let it go

Who even is this

Ssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Opps be coming in openly antagonistic, (they can get away with it because they can just vouch for each other in RVR later), and act like supporters never have to deal with shit, like bro we are dealing with you

The UES thing is literally just a rehash of previous arguments that were literally addressed,

"oh but the dyspos, and the burters and the grade 3s!", like, we already debunked that.
"oh but the dyspos, and the burters and the grade 3s, but I'm Chariot190", WOWZA, WHAT A NEW, AMAZING ARGUMENTS, GUYS!!1!


Seriously, Chariot glaze is the embodiment of "thing, Japan". I was convinced by his other arguments about Cell, Buu and Daima, but that one is just terrible.

 

[Robo432343]

Db back in my days we had roshi feat as an outlier, cell not being solar system lvl and 3-A god tiers

but recently db got 1-C accepted, infinite speed toei, MFTL multiplier stacking, gigantic namek size, universal size grand kai planet, hypertimeline and more and we’re still not happy

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Who even is this

She's talking about King Piccolo. She's gonna use one statement to try and debunk OG DB. That's it, that's the whole mystery.

 

[Entity]

Who even is this

a fake scan someone made for TOAA and Hulk

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Db back in my days had roshi feat as an outlier and cell not being solar system lvl

but recently db got 1-C accepted, infinite speed toei, MFTL multiplier stacking, gigantic namek size, universal size grand kai planet, hypertimeline and more and we’re still not happy

Don't even begin to try to apply this shit to AP, even Chariot himself admitted the current scaling chain underestimates character's feats

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Db back in my days had roshi feat as an outlier and cell not being solar system lvl

but recently db got 1-C accepted, infinite speed toei, MFTL multiplier stacking, gigantic namek size, universal size grand kai planet, hypertimeline and more and we’re still not happy

Dude SethTheProgrammer slapped this site so hard. The opps genuinely got dunked on by a groomer and still to this day are trying to make up for that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dude SethTheProgrammer slapped this site so hard. The opps genuinely got dunked on by a groomer and still to this day are trying to make up for that

Alright, that's just out of pocket and toxic. Stop.