The References of Monism in Shadow Fight (STAFF NEEDED—1 MORE)

[Jepilstiltskin]

It honestly would have been easier to read this if they just listed the scans by quote, without us having to click each one, and read what's actually stated versus the OP's interpretation.

The whole comparisons to monism thing was not needed at all.

Anyway, I disagree with 1-A, but I could see Low 1-C.

Thank you for the input. What about the whole PP3 and Acausality thing?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Thank you for the input. What about the whole PP3 and Acausality thing?

I can see Type 2 and Acausality Type 4, but not Type 5, since technically it changes when worlds are born into it.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Anyway, I disagree with 1-A, but I could see Low 1-C.

On another note, do you think something like a “Low 1-C, possibly 1-A” rating would work better in this case? Similar to Udl's and DDM's perspective. From what I've seen by everybody in this thread, a plain Low 1-C rating does not seem to fully align with the narrative implications of the story.

I can see Type 2 and Acausality Type 4, but not Type 5, since technically it changes when worlds are born into it.

But it doesn't change though, the Void and its creation are completely of independent nature. Could you clarify on this a little bit more? I may misunderstand this.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

On another note, do you think something like a “Low 1-C, possibly 1-A” rating would work better in this case? Similar to Udl's and DDM's perspective. From what I've seen by everybody in this thread, a plain Low 1-C rating does not seem to fully align with the narrative implications of the story.

Maybe, but as I mentioned before, it was a little hard for me to read over everything, since it was the scans versus your interpretation. I really do think you have a better shot at 1-A if you remake the CRT, just laying everything out without the monad stuff.

Right now I'm seeing Low 1-C.

But it doesn't change though, the Void and its creation are completely of independent nature. Could you clarify on this a little bit more? I may misunderstand this.

Not ezactly. While they are independent, something appearing within something else is a change. Unless there is some outside, greater force responsible for the birth of worlds, it counteracts the idea that the Void is changeless.

It's eternal, yes, and everything will eventually return to the Void, but currently that's not the case.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Maybe, but as I mentioned before, it was a little hard for me to read over everything, since it was the scans versus your interpretation. I really do think you have a better shot at 1-A if you remake the CRT, just laying everything out without the monad stuff.

That makes sense. I do think this would require a more comprehensive thread to properly explain it without probably the monism jab (the reason why I include them is because I lowkenuinely think they align), but that can come later. But right now, we're mainly discussing the possibility of the rating itself. So, just to clarify (and because I also need a clear vote so this thread does not get stuck in bump hell), are you leaning toward allowing a “possibly” rating as well?

Not ezactly. While they are independent, something appearing within something else is a change. Unless there is some outside, greater force responsible for the birth of worlds, it counteracts the idea that the Void is changeless.

It's eternal, yes, and everything will eventually return to the Void, but currently that's not the case.

Yeah, we already have Tenebris for that, though they're not really greater or better than the Void. The Void itself does not directly create things on its own, it requires an avatar or intermediary of some kind. That is why, in most cases, the “creator” referred to within the context of Shadow Fight is Tenebris's race rather than the Void itself. None of this really changes the Void's nature, because regardless of how many creations emerge from it, the Void itself is still fundamentally characterized as “empty”.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That makes sense. I do think this would require a more comprehensive thread to properly explain it without probably the monism jab (the reason why I include them is because I lowkenuinely think they align), but that can come later. But right now, we're mainly discussing the possibility of the rating itself. So, just to clarify (and because I also need a clear vote so this thread does not get stuck in bump hell), are you leaning toward allowing a “possibly” rating as well?

Yeah, but I would prefer giving it a solid Low 1-C rating and then updating it to a solid 1-A later, once I can reread everything, rather than possibly. It's just my preference, but if the other staff doesn't agree, that's fine.

Yeah, we already have Tenebris for that, though they're not really greater or better than the Void. The Void itself does not directly create things on its own, it requires an avatar or intermediary of some kind. That is why, in most cases, the “creator” referred to within the context of Shadow Fight is Tenebris's race rather than the Void itself. None of this really changes the Void's nature, because regardless of how many creations emerge from it, the Void itself is still fundamentally characterized as “empty”.

Well, even in that last scan, it states that the Void is 'mostly' empty space. Meaning at some point, the Void was totally empty, then something created worlds inside it, and now it's not empty anymore, which would be a change.

This happens in a lot of verses, and it's why a lot of voids don't have Acausality Type 5. But like I said, Type 4 is fine.

 

[Apotheosis69]

What are the thoughts about all the hax besides Acausality?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

What are the thoughts about all the hax besides Acausality?

@DarkDragonMedeus appears to share the same general view as @Udlmaster, namely:
• Low 1-C, possibly 1-A
• Paraconsistent Physiology (Type 1, possibly Type 2)
• Acausality (Type 4, though it really COULD be Type 5, so... maybe a “possibly” rating?)
• Nonexistent Physiology (?, they did not explicitly comment on this point, so I am uncertain. However, considering the thread discusses reality having conventional nothingness/void, the Void being beyond it would likely qualify for Type 2)

Most others generally seem to agree as well, though @Voidnether specifically treats these ratings as “possibly” across the board (excluding PP3, since they interpret it as PP2 instead). @Vietthai96 reject it entirely, only seeing this as “possibly Low 1-C” and “Acausality (Type 4)”.

 

[Vietthai96]

If most staff is fine with a solid Low 1-C then i 'm oke with it

Edit:

Nonexistent Physiology (?, they did not explicitly comment on this point, so I am uncertain. However, considering the thread discusses reality having conventional nothingness/void, the Void being beyond it would likely qualify for Type 2)

Being Void already grant it Nature Type 1, for Type 2, you need it to be beyond conventional nonexistent entirely or beyond the dualitu of existence and nonexistence, which from what i could see, only the void is nonexistent in the series

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Being Void already grant it Nature Type 1, for Type 2, you need it to be beyond conventional nonexistent entirely or beyond the dualitu of existence and nonexistence, which from what i could see, only the void is nonexistent in the series

The Shadow World (a realm specifically associated with Shadow/Darkness energy) is described as being composed of “nothing” or a void that fundamentally erases one’s existence. It does not merely destroy the body as it erases history (literally no one knows who is Kaginoko aka Shadow after this event, that's why most of the time we see him being referred to just as “Shadow” the entire game even in Shadow Fight 3), soul, and mind to the point that the individual becomes nothing more than an empty husk of shadow.

In essence, it functions as a form of nothingness. The game and supplementary material even describe it as a gateway between worlds, implying that it exists outside conventional reality itself, so... essentially as a void. Ergo, it only makes sense that the Void (being portrayed as transcending even this form of nonexistence) would possess an even higher or more fundamental degree of nonexistence.

This is already in the OP, but I'll quote it for you:

Sensei warns Kaginoko that his legend has now attracted the attention of the capital's powerful elite, and that to master the world of shadows, he must remain a ghost to the world of light. Years of this isolated pursuit culminate as the adult Kaginoko finally stands before the colossal, mist-shrouded Gates of Shadows with the six rusted fragments in hand. Despite the visible terror of his companion Dtai and the heavy, ominous weight of the relics, Kaginoko inserts the completed key into the stone mechanism. He ignores the final warnings of the Keepers he defeated, driven by a lifelong obsession to face the demons he has prepared for since childhood.

As the massive doors groan open, a blinding white light erupts from the void, followed by a wave of sentient darkness that physically strips Kaginoko of his flesh and soul. His humanity is burned away in an instant, leaving behind only the silhouetted, two-dimensional entity known as Shadow. Standing amidst the ruins of his former self, Shadow looks back to see the spectral faces of his past—Carham, Sensei, and his lost friends—before turning his back on the world of men. He steps into the eternal darkness of the Gates, realizing that his journey was never about glory, but about becoming a living weapon capable of hunting every shadow that dwells within the void.

~ Shadow Fight: Running for the Shadow (Chapter 8)

 

[Vietthai96]

but about becoming a living weapon capable of hunting every shadow that dwells within the void.

Is the void in this context talking about the Shadow Realm or the actual Void that is argued as 1-A in the OP?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Is the void in this context talking about the Shadow Realm or the actual Void that is argued as 1-A in the OP?

That was essentially just a recap of the intro from Shadow Fight 2 as this book is a prequel to it (the whole “Once, I was a great invincible warrior…” sequence), so yes, it is referring to the Shadow Realm.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

If most staff is fine with a solid Low 1-C then i 'm oke with it

Btw, please, kind sir, could you be more lenient and allow a “possibly 1-A” rating as well... for charity...? This thread would probably be done much faster that way...

On a more serious note, though, we could move on from this thread, and as @ActuallySpaceMan42 suggested, I could make another thread to solidify the rating without relying on the monism argument.

 

[Vietthai96]

Then i can see PP1 via Existence & Nonexistence and NEP2 for the (capital) Void

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Btw, please, kind sir, could you be more lenient and allow a “possibly 1-A” rating as well... for charity...? This thread would probably be done much faster that way...

On a more serious note, though, we could move on from this thread, and as @ActuallySpaceMan42 suggested, I could make another thread to solidify the rating without relying on the monism argument.

Then i can see PP1 via Existence & Nonexistence and NEP2 for the (capital) Void

In case you haven't see that, oh btw, could you please tag Elizhaa here?

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Richard5128pm]

Ultima rejected this in it another similar thread
Ultima argument above

I'd like to add a note on Ultima's input from the previous thread, because it is used to argue in this CRT, and I couldn't reply to it at the time due to reasons irl.

Ultima said the following back on 25th Jan

I don't think the association with Nirvana that (from the looks of it) is never made by the verse itself and which comes entirely from you is sufficient to give BDE-warranting context to these scans. This right there is just talking about how he will destroy the universe, and, I mean, if you read this as saying "All meaning will be transcended" and then took this fully seriously, that'd be Tier 0 straight up, not 1-A. Once the extreme high-end is dismissed, there's no content left in the statement to salvage into another tier proposal.
"Your life is an illusion" is interesting but has no context as to what it means. The R>F-type evidence that we usually look for with 1-A is basically "the lower realm is like something non-physical to the higher realm as a sign of its total inferiority." There is none of this here because it's an off-handed remark, and even if we combined this with the more interesting scans in here, it still wouldn't magically make that apt for 1-A.

Yeah, this is interesting. It's a void thing that holds the the world as "a small part" of itself. It seems that the only thing suggesting the void to be non-composite is the Nirvana stuff and it being described as "an emptiness."

The game received a few lore updates in the meantime, which clears things out. I'll use the new scans to reframe the argument.

Core Premise​

---

I talked about Nirvana in the previous thread because it is tied to independence, awakening, disillusionment and transcending worldly concepts - where, the universe/identity/everything tied to duality dissolves into blissful nothingness (sunyata, which is onthologically superior), this goes hand in hand with monism (one is all, all is one) as it positions sunyata as the Absolute source, this scales to 1-A with enough proof. And, there is enough proof to suggest that Shadow Fight follows the said model of Cosmology.

Lore / Context​

---

It starts with the Liberator of Mortals, who is the teacher/mentor of the Ancients, a.k.a the Void children (a powerful civilisation located in the void) - he is the one who helped them "break the chains of time" and become Ancients to gain ridiculous powers. In short, he is the most knowledgeable character in the Abyss storyline so far. Liberator wrote a scripture called The Telepath's Manuscript, which the Calligrapher is studying in the latest event; that's where we get more supporting statements for Nirvana.

Ontological superiority and awakening - The scripture starts by talking about freedom; freedom is not found in indulgence, nor in solitude. True freedom can only be attained through the void - when the mind is awakened from illusion and self-deception (duality), a will that acts in a state of calm.
If "freedom" is the Void itself, then becoming "free" is synonymous with becoming/merging with the void, while treating reality as something deceptive/illusory, which mirrors the process of Nirvana. The slumber state of the void could point to an Unmanifested Absolute.
Combining this with the scans and arguments from the previous thread -- like,

Itu (Void's dream) discusses his origin in this letter. What's interesting about this letter is that something very similar to Nirvana is being mentioned as the Universe gets to know about itself (enlightenment), it goes as follows: the Universe goes through countless cycles of birth and death --> finally dreams of a vessel, uses the vessel to know herself/seek answers --> when she finds the answers (enlightenment) --> All meaning is rendered obsolete (all worldly concepts/dualities lose relevance i.e. Trancending them) --> Blissful nothingness reigns (dissolves/ascends to formless emptiness i.e. becomes one with the void).

and,

Hoaxen (one of the 10 underworld gods) personifies the concept of illusions and incomprehensible principles of life; he is the master of illusions. He states life itself is an illusion, and he enjoys as people get stuck in their own illusions; this is a descriptive remark about reality and perception, which reinforces the nirvana argument.

we get a void which is ontologically superior, non-dual and the Absolute. And not just a huge empty space.

Tenebris is already one with the void, which explains why they are called the "first masters of the void" and their language has no negations (lacks the logical operator "not")

Closing​

---

I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A or even a solid 1-A rating is quite reasonable, rather than just Low 1-C..

This happens in a lot of verses, and it's why a lot of voids don't have Acausality Type 5. But like I said, Type 4 is fine.

This seems like a reasonable approach.

What do you guys think of the new scans?

 

[VoidWalker777]

I'd like to add a note on Ultima's input from the previous thread, because it is used to argue in this CRT, and I couldn't reply to it at the time due to reasons irl.

Ultima said the following back on 25th Jan

The game received a few lore updates in the meantime, which clears things out. I'll use the new scans to reframe the argument.

Core Premise​

---

I talked about Nirvana in the previous thread because it is tied to independence, awakening, disillusionment and transcending worldly concepts - where, the universe/identity/everything tied to duality dissolves into blissful nothingness (sunyata, which is onthologically superior), this goes hand in hand with monism (one is all, all is one) as it positions sunyata as the Absolute source, this scales to 1-A with enough proof. And, there is enough proof to suggest that Shadow Fight follows the said model of Cosmology.

Lore / Context​

---

It starts with the Liberator of Mortals, who is the teacher/mentor of the Ancients, a.k.a the Void children (a powerful civilisation located in the void) - he is the one who helped them "break the chains of time" and become Ancients to gain ridiculous powers. In short, he is the most knowledgeable character in the Abyss storyline so far. Liberator wrote a scripture called The Telepath's Manuscript, which the Calligrapher is studying in the latest event; that's where we get more supporting statements for Nirvana.

Ontological superiority and awakening - The scripture starts by talking about freedom; freedom is not found in indulgence, nor in solitude. True freedom can only be attained through the void - when the mind is awakened from illusion and self-deception (duality), a will that acts in a state of calm.
If "freedom" is the Void itself, then becoming "free" is synonymous with becoming/merging with the void, while treating reality as something deceptive/illusory, which mirrors the process of Nirvana. The slumber state of the void could point to an Unmanifested Absolute.
Combining this with the scans and arguments from the previous thread -- like,

and,

we get a void which is ontologically superior, non-dual and the Absolute. And not just a huge empty space.

Tenebris is already one with the void, which explains why they are called the "first masters of the void" and their language has no negations (lacks the logical operator "not")

Closing​

---

I think Low 1-C, possibly 1-A or even a solid 1-A rating is quite reasonable, rather than just Low 1-C..


What do you guys think of the new scans?

Agreed
Low 1c doesn't even fit this verse 1A is the most accurate or atleast "possibly 1A" is the bare minimum

 

[Vesxpura]

I mean, if one is all and all is one, then wouldnt the shadow world n the other worlds that arise from the void also be 1-A as parts of the void would also have to be irreducible to it js saying.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Richard5128pm]

I mean, if one is all and all is one, then wouldnt the shadow world n the other worlds that arise from the void also be 1-A as parts of the void would also have to be irreducible to it js saying.

I think you got things mixed up. What you're referring to falls under existence/compositional monism; meanwhile, priority monism (the one @Jepilstiltskin argued for) posits ontological hierarchies, with the ultimate reality (the void) as the base for everything, while worlds are treated as temporary illusions and utterly inferior.

 

[Vesxpura]

I think you got things mixed up. What you're referring to falls under existence/compositional monism; meanwhile, priority monism (the one @Jepilstiltskin argued for) posits ontological hierarchies, with the ultimate reality (the void) as the base for everything, while worlds are treated as temporary illusions and utterly inferior.

no no, i think i knew what i was talking about. rather you should deter from using highly ambiguous language that either makes or breaks ur claim.

 

[Richard5128pm]

no no, i think i knew what i was talking about. rather you should deter from using highly ambiguous language that either makes or breaks ur claim.

I assumed standard vsbw terms (like ontological hierarchy and ultimate reality) would be comprehensible to members who are willing to partake in a tier-1 upgrade thread. I'd rather leave this matter if your first response is to deflect the argument instead of addressing its actual content.

 

[VoidWalker777]

Bump

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Bump.