Re-looking at Re Zero Ap Ratings

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Decided to re-read Garfiel vs Subaru. Before even getting back to Subaru, Garfiel was already very damaged, also it was specifically said that with Puck draining his mana, he could have good fight with Subaru due to being tragically weakened (Volume 13, Chapter 7), and exhausted (Volume 13, Chapter 7), and then after clashing with Subaru and getting even more wounded he still manages to get up, despite his head swaying (Volume 13, Chapter 7), gets slammed into by Patrasche and was still conscious for a little while (Volume 13, Chapter 7).

You could chalk his ability to keep going despite being wounded and exhausted due to willpower, which isn't exactly unusual for a Re Zero character to take hits and keep going, that said imo Garfiel at the point he faced Subaru was already so weak I don't think the Flow Method played a factor.

So I can agree with 9-B, up to 7-B via Flow Method for the characters.

Also seeing the latest episode just confirmed this whole thing again to me when a God tier like Reid can get harmed by Emilia who caught him off guard

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

MORE STREET TIERS????

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Where is this thread even even going at this point? I suppose I should get the staff who previously commented to comment again on the new ratings.

Also while this thread has been focused on ap, there are other stats which would change but this is already long, so idk how to go about that, especially since there are multiple other ongoing Re Zero threads. We just scale it to Subaru and call it a day I guess.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Puck was constantly draining Garfiel's mana while his Divine Protection was constantly restoring his mana. But it doesn't matter either way because the fact that Garfiel was sent flying means he doesn't get to scale to Patrasche's charge.

him flying away is irrelevant, he wasn't blasted into pieces like a normal human would be.

If he was launched and doesn't directly scale to the KE since he didn't hit into something, wouldn't you need to find his durability via this method?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#If_not_slammed_into_a_wall

Final Speed =

 

[Apeironaxim]

Where is this thread even even going at this point? I suppose I should get the staff who previously commented to comment again on the new ratings.

Also while this thread has been focused on ap, there are other stats which would change but this is already long, so idk how to go about that, especially since there are multiple other ongoing Re Zero threads. We just scale it to Subaru and call it a day I guess.

tbf future applications of this should hopefully go quicker, now that the methodology of Flow Method scaling/amping is gonna be officially established, which getting the concept accepted really was the meat/main purpose of the thread

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

If he was launched and doesn't directly scale to the KE since he didn't hit into something, wouldn't you need to find his durability via this method?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#If_not_slammed_into_a_wall

Final Speed =

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Celestial_Pegasus/Patrasche%27s_KE

 

[Lilybitdun]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Celestial_Pegasus/Patrasche%27s_KE

Hold on here's some quick math if pegasus wants to add to that blog

Spoiler: mathe :)

Garfield Durability:
Garfiel is 160 cm and 15 years old

Ideal Weight: (42.2+56.1+56.9+57.7+59.9+60.4)/6= 55.5333kg

((300*26.82)/(55.5333+300))= 22.6307915461 m/s

KE: 0.5*55.5333*22.6307915461^2= 14220.7654895 joules / 14.2207654895kJ (Street level+)

So it's Street+, right on the edge of wall level lol

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

We are getting a bit derailed, Subaru's feats from arc 1 and 2 are still valid for this and should easily be scalable + higher than the values we would get from this calculation anyway

 

[VortechsTG]

Not if we are arguing this is their baseline without the flow method, no. Neither Subaru's nor Garfiel's feats would be usable. We know them to be regular humans without the flow method so I don't know why we aren't just giving them 10-B or 10-A depending on the character. Obviously "normal humans" in fiction can be superhuman despite supposedly being mormal but that does not appear to be the case in Re:Zero.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We just went through this conversation, just to come back to saying they are just normal humans again

Garfiel who is extremely injured and on the verge of unconsciousness has a 9-C+ feat according to what Lily just posted, don't see how the argument holds up.

 

[VortechsTG]

Garfiel who is extremely injured and on the verge of unconsciousness has a 9-C+ feat according to what Lily just posted, don't see how the argument holds up.

Maybe because he has Mana flowing through his body and is actively using it to fight? Why are we acting like he doesn't? I don't care how injured he was. That isn't relevant. He is being buffed by the flow method.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Also seeing the latest episode just confirmed this whole thing again to me when a God tier like Reid can get harmed by Emilia who caught him off guard

Wouldn't this also be true from the same feat in "wraith if", when Emilia is capable of harming him there too? (by bypassing his authorities, due to lack of "intent"?)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Maybe because he has Mana flowing through his body and is actively using it to fight? Why are we acting like he doesn't? I don't care how injured he was. That isn't relevant. He is being buffed by the flow method.

Mana which was being absorbed at such a rate he immediately lost his transformation. If he can't even stand straight and is losing consciousness, how exactly is he supposed to be able to amp himself?

Wouldn't this also be true from the same feat in "wraith if", when Emilia is capable of harming him there too? (by bypassing his authorities, due to lack of "intent"?)

You are getting Reid and Reinhard mixed up, I was referring to Reid, the Wrath If refers to Reinhard, regardless you could make the argument that while Reinhard is amped 24/7, he doesn't amp himself to 6-B, and sits around the mid tiers.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Maybe because he has Mana flowing through his body and is actively using it to fight? Why are we acting like he doesn't? I don't care how injured he was. That isn't relevant. He is being buffed by the flow method.

Subaru in arc 1 and 2 did not have his gate opened and should not have been capable of using the flow method to a degree where he could amp himself, you can reread the conversation from the beginning since the disccusion on this is something that has already happened

 

[Lilybitdun]

I wasn't sure if I should bring it up here or the discussion thread but after looking I saw that both Subaru's 9-B & 9-B+ calcs have some issues

1st one has weird pixel-scaling and overestimates depth by using 1 inch for minimum instead of 1cm (maybe you could use Kan's head length radius instead?) and the 2nd having an incorrect depth (we see onscreen it's not chest deep since it's a side view) & using pulv when we see fragments from the impact

The important one being the 9-B+ since it means if the profiles are made "9-B+, up to Blank via Flow Method" or "9-B, up to Blank via Flow Method"

Should I make a CGM thread for this issue or is this better to be resolved in this thread?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Better to make a CGM thread, especially since at this point I think another thread will be needed to discuss the implementation of the conclusions drawn here, like the edge cases like Reinhard and possibly Reid since even though he was off guard, he didn't die from Emilia’s attack and she was serious, or even stuff like speed and lifing strength.

But yea, next part of this will have to wait until the calcs are sorted out.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I wasn't sure if I should bring it up here or the discussion thread but after looking I saw that both Subaru's 9-B & 9-B+ calcs have some issues

1st one has weird pixel-scaling and overestimates depth by using 1 inch for minimum instead of 1cm (maybe you could use Ran's head length radius instead?)

Looking at the crater, even an inch seems like a low ball but taking kan's head length radius seems reasonable

and the 2nd having an incorrect depth (we see onscreen it's not chest deep since it's a side view) & using pulv when we see fragments from the impact

There are barely any fragmented remains present, and the primary crater itself is clearly the result of pulverization. Even from a realistic standpoint, the epicenter of the impact would experience pulverization, while fragmentation would appear as the energy moves away from the center.

The important one being the 9-B+ since it means if the profiles are made "9-B+, up to Blank via Flow Method" or "9-B, up to Blank via Flow Method"

Should I make a CGM thread for this issue or is this better to resolved in this thread?

Sure, while we are at it, these are some other notable feats that should be calc'd in the order of their priority:

Subaru throwing a rock at Capella

Reinhard's blackhole feat from arc 9

Priscilla statueing demon beasts

Subaru surviving this kick

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Some of these aren't relevant to the current topic but would be nice if someone calc them, slightly off topic, I have to say years ago I found it weird how Capella was weirdly not durable, but now since the flow method is a thing its clear she doesn't always amp her durability since she can just regenerate from the damage.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Reinhard's blackhole feat from arc 9

Priscilla statueing demon beasts

I don't see how these are related to the thread topic? Plus the blackhole is being dealt with another thread currently

I'll be doing the cgm thread when I wake up, I'm very tired rn

 

[Zabazab]

Subaru throwing a rock at Capella

Reinhard's blackhole feat from arc 9

Priscilla statueing demon beasts

Subaru surviving this kick

He thinks this is the calc request thread

 

[VortechsTG]

Subaru in arc 1 and 2 did not have his gate opened and should not have been capable of using the flow method to a degree where he could amp himself, you can reread the conversation from the beginning since the disccusion on this is something that has already happened

I have read it. It doesn't prove what is being claimed. That's not how that works. He still had mana inside him or he wouldn't have been able to cast Shamak in the first place. In the wn we literally see him going from being unable to keep track of an ulgarm one moment to successfully blocking its attack. Part of the humor of the situation with early Subaru is him constantly bragging about relatively normal accomplishements like benchpressing 80kg while he's doing a bunch of blatantly superhuman shit.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I have read it. It doesn't prove what is being claimed. That's not how that works. He still had mana inside him or he wouldn't have been able to cast Shamak in the first place. In the wn we literally see him going from being unable to keep track of an ulgarm one moment to successfully blocking its attack. Part of the humor of the situation with early Subaru is him constantly bragging about relatively normal accomplishements like benchpressing 80kg while he's doing a bunch of blatantly superhuman shit.

Dude, benching 80kg at his height and weight is genuinely impressive

Anyways, having mana and being able to actively use mana are two completely different things. The issue still comes back to the fact that Subaru’s gate had remained entirely unused up until the point Puck examined it, even noting that it was straight up closed. That alone proves he had not actually been using his gate up to that stage.

Also, Ulgaarms are just terrible for scaling in general. They somehow scale to Rem, who scales to the White Whale, yet individual Ulgaarms were getting beaten by a severely anemiac, untrained Subaru. They really should not be treated as meaningful scaling benchmarks at all. Honestly, it makes more sense to treat them like glorified animals with dura negating attacks through their claws and fangs, especially since sharp weapons and attacks in Re:Zero consistently behave almost like dura neg anyway, including in some of the more recent chapters.

 

[VortechsTG]

Dude, benching 80kg at his height and weight is genuinely impressive

Only for a normal human.

Anyways, having mana and being able to actively use mana are two completely different things. The issue still comes back to the fact that Subaru’s gate had remained entirely unused up until the point Puck examined it, even noting that it was straight up closed. That alone proves he had not actually been using his gate up to that stage.

He hadn't released any mana before, sure. That doesn't mean anything for the flow method whatsoever. His gate is literally broken now, as is Reinhard's, and they can still use it just fine.

Also, Ulgaarms are just terrible for scaling in general. They somehow scale to Rem, who scales to the White Whale, yet individual Ulgaarms were getting beaten by a severely anemiac, untrained Subaru. They really should not be treated as meaningful scaling benchmarks at all. Honestly, it makes more sense to treat them like glorified animals with dura negating attacks through their claws and fangs, especially since sharp weapons and attacks in Re:Zero consistently behave almost like dura neg anyway, including in some of the more recent chapters.

This is a non-argument. The scenes are literally back to back. His adrenaline kicks in as soon as the Ulgarm gets close to him and he even has an easier time tracking it at close range than at a distance.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

He hadn't released any mana before, sure. That doesn't mean anything for the flow method whatsoever. His gate is literally broken now, as is Reinhard's, and they can still use it just fine.

That is not what I am saying. Puck specifically commented that Subaru’s gate was completely unused, as in, it had never released mana before. Unless you are suggesting that Flow Method amp can occur entirely without gate usage? which the series has already stated is not the case:

In a situation of mental or physical urgency, Gates present in one’s body, which would normally go unused, could be opened, resulting in the person entering the same state as those able to execute the Flow Method. It was possible that those with superior abilities had been able to teach themselves how to use the Flow Method through an experience of the sort; but for now, further explanation will be omitted as it is beside the main point.

-Arc 7, Chapter 99, "Those who rule the skies"

The statement itself directly ties Flow Method amps to the opening and usage of the gate. So if Subaru’s gate was explicitly described as completely unused/closed by Puck, that directly goes against the idea that his earlier feats were the result of subconscious Flow Method reinforcement.

 

[VortechsTG]

That is not what I am saying. Puck specifically commented that Subaru’s gate was completely unused, as in, it had never released mana before. Unless you are suggesting that Flow Method amp can occur entirely without gate usage? which the series has already stated is not the case:

I was saying it can happen without active, intentionally triggered gate usage and without the gate releasing mana. This is objectively true because it can be used unconsciously with adrenaline and both Reinhard and Subaru can use it despite having broken gates that can't release mana.

The statement itself directly ties Flow Method amps to the opening and usage of the gate. So if Subaru’s gate was explicitly described as completely unused/closed by Puck, that directly goes against the idea that his earlier feats were the result of subconscious Flow Method reinforcement.

I must admit you are correct. Frankly, to me this seems completely contradictory to what we see and otherwise know about the flow method. But since it's directly stated I will drop the subject. This is just something Tappei will have to clear up in the future it seems.

 

[Lilybitdun]

I'll be doing the cgm thread when I wake up, I'm very tired rn

Had gotten a little busy and sidetracked but

ReZero: Subaru 9-B+ Downgrade

I'm writing this while very sleep deprived so apologizes in advance if something is messed up in OP or the recalcs https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SeijiSetto/Soob_OBLITERATES_A_Not-Child Problems: The calc assumes 1 inch depth, which is very arbitrary since we use 1cm for minimum...

vsbattles.com

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We already have a few threads open, so think I will close this, we at least have accepted the idea that the stats for the characters should be separated, what those ratings will be will be decided once the calc problems are resolved.