Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision

[GodlyCharmander]

we're going to treat it as "Toriyama doesn't care about respecting numbers"?

What do you mean "we're going to treat it like he doesn't respect it", there's an entire paragraph of anti-feats to those statements that shows he has no regards for these numeric values, thus, he doesn't respect it.

It's mind boggling to me that, literally, every single feat in this series, becomes literally impossible to be performed if we indexed the characters as Toriyama's statements.

Do you genuinely believe that's accurate? Again, if Goku were to fight a giant character the same size/weight as Piccolo, who he could flip, our own profiles would dictate that Goku is UNABLE to perform the same feat again, is that genuinely what you want our profiles to be like?

 

[Damage3245]

What do you mean "we're going to treat it like he doesn't respect it", there's an entire paragraph of anti-feats to those statements that shows he has no regards for these numeric values, thus, he doesn't respect it.

It's mind boggling to me that, literally, every single feat in this series, becomes literally impossible to be performed if we indexed the characters as Toriyama's statements.

Do you genuinely believe that's accurate? Again, if Goku were to fight a giant character the same size/weight as Piccolo, who he could flip, our own profiles would dictate that Goku is UNABLE to perform the same feat again, is that genuinely what you want our profiles to be like?

Doing the exact opposite approach doesn't fix the problem either; we end up with profiles that say the characters should easily be able to perform feats that we literally see them fail to perform on-screen.

In the end, I favor the approach that is the most conservative when it comes to speculation and assumptions, and the scaling chain presented by the OP is more reasonable than a ton of characters scaling to the more inconsistent strength chain that would derive from depending on Taopaipai's feat.

 

[Planck69]

I do not mind a "Class X (OP), likely higher" rating if it comes down to it but looking at this, it seems extremely clear to me what Toriyama is trying to communicate. And I'd trust that over our very arbitrary calcs if it comes down to it, so put me as agree with OP.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I mean, sure. But I could also use this against you. For example, Tao. You can't say Ki control since he threw it and in no way was this 8-C damage as the calculation, well calculated, to the Earth so we could just throw away that LS feat too.

Forgive for my ignorance, if I lack context. How this calc isn't breaking rule "if KE contradicts shown environmental damage, don't use KE (and thus LS)". (As if this calc didn't have other problems, like being serious outlier)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Doing the exact opposite approach doesn't fix the problem either

Please read my reply, I'm vouching for a split rating, or an Unknown rating. I just want you to admit that both are unreliable.

 

[Damage3245]

Please read my reply, I'm vouching for a split rating, or an Unknown rating. I just want you to admit that both are unreliable.

I don't think both are unreliable, though I'll concede there is no perfect solution. I don't think an Unknown rating is a good solution; that feels a bit defeatist. I'm not opposed to some kind of compromise rating depending on how that'll be written on the profiles. Would need to see the drafts for it.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't mind some kind of compromise but I don't like Unknown, yeah.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Didn't we even have a CRT to remove Zeno's Unknown LS cause it gets treated as Below Average Human in matches lol

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The latest votes are 3 for the OP (Somebody, KT, Damage), 3 are against the OP (DDM, Qaws, Viet), and 2 are in favor or a split or unknown rating (Nierre, Dale)

I also voted agreeing with you btw

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't mind some kind of compromise but I don't like Unknown, yeah.

For LS it would be Superhuman rather than Unknown since they have evidence of greater than normal strength.

I guess I'm fine with a split rating. Statements would be first, followed by whatever calc is valid for that key.

 

[ByArrow]

I don’t really care about this verse, but since CW Flash is mentioned so often, I’ll touch on it.

It has been claimed that the statements regarding Flash’s speed are consistent, but this is incorrect. These Mach statements contradict each other, and they also contradict the FTL statements introduced starting in Season 2. Furthermore, the CW writers contradict themselves. They say a weapon’s maximum temperature is the Planck temperature, but in the next episode, they say that weapon’s maximum temperature is only a few thousand degrees. They say Barry runs at Mach 7 while circling the Earth in real time in one second. They say a billion joules is a megaton, They say Flash can throw punches faster than light, but then they say he moves at 20 Mach. and so on. In one episode, they say he needs to travel at Mach 2 for time travel, but in another, they say he needs to go faster than light; they say speedsters can perceive and move in nanoseconds, they claim microseconds are painfully slow for speedster—but they’re not even at Mach 5 according to statments. So even if you try to follow statements, you can’t arrive at a consistent conclusion because the statements aren’t consistent with each other.

It also contradicts every scene shown. For example, in the very first season, Barry sees a real lightning bolt in slowmotion, but its speed is under Mach 2; he sees dozens of bullets as if they were motionless and changes their paths, but according to the statements, he’s moving at the same speed as them; he sees a lightning bolt as if it were motionless and outpaces it, but he’s not even traveling at Mach 10; they outpace cameras with trillions of frames per second but aren’t even at 50 Mach, Flash can traverse a corridor in 3 picoseconds but isn’t even at 20 Mach, and he watches a nuclear bomb’s reaction freeze for an entire episode while traversing city blocks but isn’t even at 20 Mach. He can travel from the U.S. to China and back before a camera completes a single rotation, but he’s not even 20 Mach.

So the situations with DB and CW aren’t exactly the same; they might seem similar at first, but they’re not.

 

[KingTempest]

I don’t really care about this verse, but since CW Flash is mentioned so often, I’ll touch on it.

It has been claimed that the statements regarding Flash’s speed are consistent, but this is incorrect. These Mach statements contradict each other, and they also contradict the FTL statements introduced starting in Season 2. Furthermore, the CW writers contradict themselves. They say a weapon’s maximum temperature is the Planck temperature, but in the next episode, they say that weapon’s maximum temperature is only a few thousand degrees. They say Barry runs at Mach 7 while circling the Earth in real time in one second. They say a billion joules is a megaton, They say Flash can throw punches faster than light, but then they say he moves at 20 Mach. and so on. In one episode, they say he needs to travel at Mach 2 for time travel, but in another, they say he needs to go faster than light; they say speedsters can perceive and move in nanoseconds, they claim microseconds are painfully slow for speedster—but they’re not even at Mach 5 according to statments. So even if you try to follow statements, you can’t arrive at a consistent conclusion because the statements aren’t consistent with each other.

It also contradicts every scene shown. For example, in the very first season, Barry sees a real lightning bolt in slowmotion, but its speed is under Mach 2; he sees dozens of bullets as if they were motionless and changes their paths, but according to the statements, he’s moving at the same speed as them; he sees a lightning bolt as if it were motionless and outpaces it, but he’s not even traveling at Mach 10; they outpace cameras with trillions of frames per second but aren’t even at 50 Mach, Flash can traverse a corridor in 3 picoseconds but isn’t even at 20 Mach, and he watches a nuclear bomb’s reaction freeze for an entire episode while traversing city blocks but isn’t even at 20 Mach. He can travel from the U.S. to China and back before a camera completes a single rotation, but he’s not even 20 Mach.

So the situations with DB and CW aren’t exactly the same; they might seem similar at first, but they’re not.

Dude was Mach 13 in season 2, raced Kara at Mach 13, then in Season 5 they almost died going mach 7

it's just horrible

not the same as anything in dragon ball

 

[Armorchompy]

I don’t really care about this verse, but since CW Flash is mentioned so often, I’ll touch on it.

It has been claimed that the statements regarding Flash’s speed are consistent, but this is incorrect. These Mach statements contradict each other, and they also contradict the FTL statements introduced starting in Season 2. Furthermore, the CW writers contradict themselves. They say a weapon’s maximum temperature is the Planck temperature, but in the next episode, they say that weapon’s maximum temperature is only a few thousand degrees. They say Barry runs at Mach 7 while circling the Earth in real time in one second. They say a billion joules is a megaton, They say Flash can throw punches faster than light, but then they say he moves at 20 Mach. and so on. In one episode, they say he needs to travel at Mach 2 for time travel, but in another, they say he needs to go faster than light; they say speedsters can perceive and move in nanoseconds, they claim microseconds are painfully slow for speedster—but they’re not even at Mach 5 according to statments. So even if you try to follow statements, you can’t arrive at a consistent conclusion because the statements aren’t consistent with each other.

It also contradicts every scene shown. For example, in the very first season, Barry sees a real lightning bolt in slowmotion, but its speed is under Mach 2; he sees dozens of bullets as if they were motionless and changes their paths, but according to the statements, he’s moving at the same speed as them; he sees a lightning bolt as if it were motionless and outpaces it, but he’s not even traveling at Mach 10; they outpace cameras with trillions of frames per second but aren’t even at 50 Mach, Flash can traverse a corridor in 3 picoseconds but isn’t even at 20 Mach, and he watches a nuclear bomb’s reaction freeze for an entire episode while traversing city blocks but isn’t even at 20 Mach. He can travel from the U.S. to China and back before a camera completes a single rotation, but he’s not even 20 Mach.

So the situations with DB and CW aren’t exactly the same; they might seem similar at first, but they’re not.

damn lol

 

[Qawsedf234]

Dude was Mach 13 in season 2, raced Kara at Mach 13, then in Season 5 they almost died going mach 7

it's just horrible

not the same as anything in dragon ball

A real statement someone wrote:

Barry, that event has an energy level of at least 6.7 Tera Electronvolts. It cannot be stopped. -> Season 1 Episode 23

A mosquito flapping it's wing once is 1 Tera Electronvolt. Making Flash weaker than 7 Mosquitoes or one mosquito flapping it's wings over seven seconds.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

A real statement someone wrote:



A mosquito flapping it's wing once is 1 Tera Electronvolt. Making Flash weaker than 7 Mosquitoes or one mosquito flapping it's wings over seven seconds.

Looks accurate enough, I approve of the proposed change.

but yeah, enough of the fun, let's go back to the CRT.

 

[Padaruyos]

For the record my position here is still neutral. As I outlined in my previous posts. Toriyama clearly intended the values outlined by OP. And it's not some bizarre contradiction situation like CW Flash.
Though at the same time his on panel feats, mind you the stuff he directly draws, contradicts it. And he clearly intends this to be true too.
So yes I support either Unknown or a "X, possibly Y" ratings.

 

[SomebodyData]

• Pilaf Saga: 3.3 Tons
• Post-Roshi Training: 230 Tons
• Post-Korin Training: 449K Tons

I'm assuming that for the split rating supporters, it'll be the OP's suggested ratings + these right?

 

[Omegabronic]

An increase in battle power causes a direct increase in lifting strength, as seen with the super saiyan example, and physical strength is not something separated from lifting strength in writing, usually. Thus, the fact a Vegeta with a gap of millions of times is far less than 25x stronger than Goku is weird. It's not a non-sequitur at all.

This is assuming AP and LS raise proportionally the same or close when BP raises

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is assuming AP and LS raise proportionally the same or close when BP raises

The entire narrative weight behind the gravity training (Going from 10G to 100G) was to reinforce that Goku did indeed get a x10 multiplier between Saiyan Saga and Namek, no?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is assuming AP and LS raise proportionally the same or close when BP raises

The Super Saiyan example shows they increase together, not proportionally. Again, there is no difference between LS and physical strength in terms of writing, this is just another point against Toriyama/Toyotaro being consistent with their numbers.

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay even if you wanna say Toriyama doesn't know how much a ton is or whatever, the weight statements clearly don't increase by the same ratio as the multipliers, and surely he was able to do the extremely simple math. So i definitely don't think you should use AP multipliers for LS.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The entire narrative weight behind the gravity chamber training (Going from 10G to 100G) was to reinforce that Goku did indeed get a x10 multiplier, no?

Yeah

Okay even if you wanna say Toriyama doesn't know how much a ton is or whatever, the weight statements clearly don't increase by the same ratio as the multipliers, and surely he was able to do the extremely simple math. So i definitely don't think you should use AP multipliers for LS.

The multipliers were for battle power, and for physical strength. There isn't a distinction, at least canonically, between striking and lifting. It's less "he wasn't able to", more "he doesn't give a flying **** about it". Even then, Super Saiyan is at least a 5x increase based on the anti-feat alone. To which, you can again say, he didn't care about keeping it consistent.

 

[Hellbeast]

If you wanna make 90% of DB have lower LS than f#cking Mokap, that’s kinda inevitable

Liu Kang vs Goku when

 

[Sparkive]

I'm in favor of split ratings, although in that case we still have to make the adjustments mentioned in the thread (I don't remember exactly which ones, but I think I read that some calculations have problems to fix and Tao Pai Pai's is an outlier even if you take the calculations as the truth...)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tao Pai Pai's is an outlier even if you take the calculations as the truth

It isn't. Plenty of feats on that range. If you do a proper calculation on Goku vs Piccolo, you get something good too.

 

[SomebodyData]

It isn't. Plenty of feats on that range. If you do a proper calculation on Goku vs Piccolo, you get something good too.

Putting aside the argument on giant characters, I'm confident that calculating Giant Piccolo will not be anywhere close to Class T from my own experience calculating large characters.

What other calcs have Class T results, especially in this part of the story?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Putting aside the argument on giant characters, I'm confident that calculating Giant Piccolo will not be anywhere close to Class T from my own experience calculating large characters.

What other calcs have Class T results, especially in this part of the story?

Class T???

Blue’s own Class M feat is only about half of Tao's Class M feat. Pilaf Saga Great Ape Goku (Who's around this level of power) also rn has a Class M calc on his profile.
Really the only argument for considering it an outlier is that none of the feats later on surpass it, but like the majority of those are usually pretty casual/not calced.

 

[SomebodyData]

Meant Class M my bad lol

 

[KLOL506]

Class T???

Blue’s own Class M feat is only about half of Tao's Class M feat. Pilaf Saga Great Ape Goku (Who's around this level of power) also rn has a Class M calc on his profile.
Really the only argument for considering it an outlier is that none of the feats later on surpass it, but like the majority of those are usually pretty casual/not calced.

First calc looks hella sketch.

The telephone booth is hollow and its outer walls are certainly not made of solid steel. Nor would they even be that thick. Them being thin would undoubtedly compromise the rigidity of the booth.

 

[Davi009997]

And this calculation can't be used? Or is it wrong, an outlier, or something like that?

Dragon Ball: Vegeta Uses His Ki to Pull & Push a Thunderstorm

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Omegabronic]

. Pilaf Saga Great Ape Goku (Who's around this level of power) also rn has a Class M calc on his profile.

Oozaru's calculation would be an outlier regardless, Base Goku is exactly 10x weaker, thus would be in the range of 6000 tons/still class M, yet he contanstly struggles with things far lighter:

Putting great effort to to partially lift a small car

Barely being able to lift and destroy a small boulder

Even his Class K feat is one visibly struggles with and barely push it a few feet

It is an outlier given Base Goku's feats

 

[Omegabronic]

And this calculation can't be used? Or is it wrong, an outlier, or something like that?

Dragon Ball: Vegeta Uses His Ki to Pull & Push a Thunderstorm

vsbattles.fandom.com

I genually don't see how a feat weather manipulation, as the Ki page puts it, would be viable for an LS calc... he is just manipulating the weather, creating strong winds, a massive storm, etc... nowhere is it said he "pulled the air" to make the storm, it just appears before any wind is even generated

 

[Omegabronic]

Thought we weren't taking Oozaru as a x10 LS multiplier? And like, Great Ape Goku wouldn't even be able to move if he really was just x10 Class 1, right?

Wasn't it argued the Multipliers affect LS too? Hence the Super Saiyan 40 tons stuff, Charmander also argued BP and LS raise together... we can't cherry pick when we apply the multipliers, we either use them or we don't

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wasn't it argued the Multipliers affect LS too?

They do, yeah. At the same time that Great Ape Goku is stronger than the Goku that pushed the big Class K rock and is around as strong as the one that fought Tao.

It's kinda a recurring problem with downscaling in general. If you do it far enough, you end up with stuff like 5-A regular humans via downscaling them from Frieza's PL, and like in this case, if Great Ape Goku was genuinely only Class 10, he straight-up wouldn’t even be able to move sooo

 

[Omegabronic]

They do, yeah. At the same time that Great Ape Goku is stronger than the Goku that pushed the big Class K rock and is around as strong as the one that fought Tao.

It's kinda a recurring problem with downscaling. If you do it far enough, you end up with stuff like 5-A regular humans via downscaling them from Frieza's PL, and like in this case, if Great Ape Goku was genuinely only Class 10, he straight-up wouldn’t even be able to move sooo

So we are ignoring the Multiplier for LS but not for AP? That's cherrypicking, if one wants to say the Multipliers apply to LS and BP... then we either use it for both, or not, cherry picking what's most convenient is... well, cherry picking

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So we are ignoring the Multiplier for LS but not for AP? That's cherrypicking, if one wants to say the Multipliers apply to LS and BP... then we either use it for both, or not, cherry picking what's most convenient is... well, cherry picking

I feel like removing the Great Ape multiplier goes a bit beyond the scope of what this thread's trying to do, you can make a CRT about it Ig.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Charmander also argued BP and LS raise together...

Yes, but at the same rate? Using the Magetta battle as an example, if Super Saiyan Vegeta's Lifting Strength has an upper limit of over 1,000 tons, then his normal Lifting Should should only be over 20 tons, which is only a small increase from the 16.8 tons he was withstanding under 300G during the Android Saga. Or even King Kai's training. Goku's Battle Power increased by nearly 20 times (416 to 8,000+) after his training under King Kai, but he had only trained to withstand 10G, and then had to yet again train in order to withstand 20G after the Saiyan Saga.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I feel like removing the Great Ape multiplier goes a bit beyond the scope of what this thread's trying to do, you can make a CRT about it Ig.

The Great Ape multiplier is explicitly a 10x boost. You can't say it boosts one stat by a factor of thousands at the same time as accepting a 10x general power increase. Ki affects everything, and all it does is increase Ki.

Anyways since Chariot and Charmander have already gone back and forth:

Current votes:

• Agrees with the OP: @SomebodyData (here), @Damage3245 (here), @KingTempest (here), (Debatable) @Armorchompy (here), (Debatable) @Planck69 (here)
• Disagrees with the OP: @DarkDragonMedeus (here), @Vietthai96 (here), @Qawsedf234 (here), @LephyrTheRevanchist (here)
• Split Rating or Superhuman/Unknown: @Nierre (here), @Dalesean027 (here), (Debatable) @Armorchompy (here), (Debatable) @Planck69 (here)

Considering the split option sorta addresses all the issues, I also say that we do a split rating based (I'll also change my vote to that rating). With the proposal:

• The base strength rating for all characters are moved to the stated Manga weights. So Buu Saga Goku is 8~ Tons at max and higher with the SS multipliers. Multiverse Tournament Arc characters max out at 1,000 tons etc
• They are given a "likely" rating based on the lifting strength feats with the most supporting evidence. So Tau wouldn't be used since it's an outlier, but lesser feats like Great Ape Goku can be used as a max end
• The Frieza rock push feat has to be reevaluated, so everyone previously scaled to it loses the Class G until the calc is recertified

Does anyone have a problem with the above?

 

[KLOL506]

I'm in favor of Split Ratings. Rock feat can go because of the weird methodology used for it.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Putting aside the argument on giant characters, I'm confident that calculating Giant Piccolo will not be anywhere close to Class T from my own experience calculating large characters.

What other calcs have Class T results, especially in this part of the story?

Class T?