- 603
- 341
Now we need 2 more, they agreed with the first one and we'll have a draw.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Charlie Morningstar is not weaker than all of hell
- Thread starter DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt
- Start date
Just_Butchering
He/Him- 1,721
- 939
If we agree on Sinners > Imps, then Charlie should definitely scale too. Specially since she fought a transformed Katie.
Also, Charlie aided in the fight against the exorcists. She should be "At least 9-A, likely 8-C" or just straight 8-C.
Also, Charlie aided in the fight against the exorcists. She should be "At least 9-A, likely 8-C" or just straight 8-C.
- 52,892
- 47,250
You mean with a tier 5 shield?
- 6,280
- 4,061
Katie is like random ahh journalist (that sucks up to Vox a ton). Rn we accept the main cast to be nearly as strong as Overlords. So if anything that is a contradiction to Charlie being comparable to the cast or stronger than imps.
Also was Katie actually transformed?
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,521
- 1,529
- 1,131
- 334
- Thread starter
- #46
which one should I count you on? 8-C or the possibly one
- 6,280
- 4,061
This breaks my theory man : (
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
disagree fra.
will go into proper detail at a later date
will go into proper detail at a later date
- 7
- 7
If this gets accepted, then Charlie should be given at least Class K for her magical LS. Together with 11 other characters, she helped lift the MoL
1600 / 12 = around 133 tons of magical LS
- 6,280
- 4,061
Outlier
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,521
- 1,529
Outlier
Anyways the only outlier part is them scaling to it's power (technically not even an outlier, they straight up scale to it via amps) and multiple characters already scale to class K.
- 1,131
- 334
- Thread starter
- #52
that is true, the only outlier was the MoL power, the weight is fair game
Anyways the only outlier part is them scaling to it's power (technically not even an outlier, they straight up scale to it via amps) and multiple characters already scale to class K.
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
Call me Sukuna cuz i've returned and only got limited time.
Here we go
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him, Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie. We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
"She helped against the Exorcists so she's gotta scale to sinners"
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
2nd, not hard to help with a tier 5 shield, strong magic, and comparable speed to literally everyone
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards? Y'all can't say this reasoning is unfounded as this point is also a point of evidence against invulnerable Excorcists, iirc.
So, what do i vote for? Remove 9-C, give her straight 9-B. i really only gave her 9-C because she had no direct comparison to Pentious but, as i research this response, i see she doesn't need it due ro her fighr with katie and Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
y'all can rip my mobile maded response but this is my answer. You're not changing my mind and i doubt I've changed yours. it doesn't matter...so be kind and respectful.
Here we go
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him, Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie. We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
"She helped against the Exorcists so she's gotta scale to sinners"
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
2nd, not hard to help with a tier 5 shield, strong magic, and comparable speed to literally everyone
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards? Y'all can't say this reasoning is unfounded as this point is also a point of evidence against invulnerable Excorcists, iirc.
So, what do i vote for? Remove 9-C, give her straight 9-B. i really only gave her 9-C because she had no direct comparison to Pentious but, as i research this response, i see she doesn't need it due ro her fighr with katie and Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
y'all can rip my mobile maded response but this is my answer. You're not changing my mind and i doubt I've changed yours. it doesn't matter...so be kind and respectful.
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,521
- 1,529
Okay? He still has strong durability compared to his AP, which mind you, Charlie has lower durability than him. Charlie was able to kick someone in their demon form who should be stronger than Pentious, what's your point? Especially when you mention "regular sinners" which Katie Killjoy should logically be one of them, as she uses her demon form against Charlie.
We literally see 1 second of their fight, and yet you deduced that Charlie only lands 2 hits, when we literally see her after the fight being totally fine. And to be logical, there's no way Charlie could've lost the fight and looked fine like that after.
Also Charlie did clearly did do damage. If she didn't, there would've been no reason Katie couldn't just attack her again, instead of just standing there and looking annoyed. Not everyone who gets punched needs to have a bloody face to imply they were damaged.
I also don't see how you deduced that Katie having her hands around Charlie in this way implies she was being overpowered or restrained.
This is a stupid argument. Charlie didn't even attempt to physically overpower them properly, and we know Charlie doesn't like to use her authority. Yes, she did scream "I'm the princess of Hell" but she didn't really do anything after that. Blitzo only tossed a sinner who was distracted. Also by that logic we've also seen Blitzo get beaten up by humans in Seeing Stars.
Them being superior to their species isn't them being like on level with sinners, as we've never seen them go against one properly, nor do we see them fight a demon form too. Also using Moxxie is stupid when he's practically not that strong. They have literally no merit at all to scale to Sinners.
First off, absolutely not what tanking means. These bombs hurt characters like Valentino, so if we assume Charlie scales to Valentino, it would still hurt her, and same thing with Pentious.
Obviously Charlie would be terrified? You're talking about a sheltered princess who dislikes violence and barely understands how her powers work. Why shouldn't she be terrified of bomb? Alastor was flabbergasted when Valentino attacked him with a gun, what's your point? Also that thing was blowing up the hotel, so further more reason to be scared of.
We canonically know that demon forms are activated via emotions, and Charlie is a person who can't really control her emotions that well.
- She got enraged when she saw Valentino pushing Angel Dust.
- Got visibly crying and then angry when she saw Pentious literally die.
Obviously she'll get the experienced demon who is also one of the most powerful people she knows to fight Adam, over herself, someone who isn't experienced in fighting or using her own abilities.
Her being able to damage Katie Killjoy on it's own should already put her above Sir Pentious easily. There's quite literally no reason for Katie Killjoy in her demon form who wasn't scared to fight the literal princess of Hell, to have worse durability than Sir Pentious in his base form.
First off, they were straight up created by Lucifer, not "picked."
Second off, Stolas can one-shot Imps and has bodyguards, what's exactly the point here? Charlie is still a notably inexperienced fighter who is also a pacifist. It feels you just keep ignoring that.
- 52,892
- 47,250
You realize she only threw a bomb after being told "His eyes are shit", right? And he had no visible damage but was blinded/had his eyes hurt from the brightness?
So where's this stated beyond WoGlaverse-- sorry, WoG.
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
^this.
it was literally in the gen thread and in the justifications of the mega crt that he only got hurt from being blinded cuz he canonically has bad eyes
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
"this is not what tanking is"
looks inside
sees the only reason the 8-Cs are 8-C is cuz people face tanked it
and I'm supposed to believe the Charlie sups
looks inside
sees the only reason the 8-Cs are 8-C is cuz people face tanked it
and I'm supposed to believe the Charlie sups
- 52,892
- 47,250
Nono, he thinks that 8-C comes from tosh and they actually should just be 9-A still!
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
person who voted in the mega crt btw... 
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
cherri and angel should be but you ain't hear it from me
- 6,280
- 4,061
I agree that 9-C should go ngl... 10-B Ch*rlie sounds way more fitting!
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
i think Charlie has the worst physicals of the main cast wirh goated magic but she deserves her 9-b upscale
- 6,280
- 4,061
- 1,131
- 334
- Thread starter
- #64
I had to make a new section for wall level because I cant just shift orange or reaper without them saying so, also, does this genuinely mean that if Charlie DOES get anything from S3 that we'd genuinely count that as a separate key? Because all of this really looks like thatCall me Sukuna cuz i've returned and only got limited time.
Here we go
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him, Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie. We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
"She helped against the Exorcists so she's gotta scale to sinners"
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
2nd, not hard to help with a tier 5 shield, strong magic, and comparable speed to literally everyone
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards? Y'all can't say this reasoning is unfounded as this point is also a point of evidence against invulnerable Excorcists, iirc.
So, what do i vote for? Remove 9-C, give her straight 9-B. i really only gave her 9-C because she had no direct comparison to Pentious but, as i research this response, i see she doesn't need it due ro her fighr with katie and Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
y'all can rip my mobile maded response but this is my answer. You're not changing my mind and i doubt I've changed yours. it doesn't matter...so be kind and respectful.
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
I'm busy as of late and working on responding to @Mythic381 but I'll spare some time to mak3 a quick reply
that said, i can't say what we would do in the future for feats that don't exist as we have no context
if she oneshots a sinner in base in season 3 consistently, a discussion will be made as to what will be done with her due to what i previously mentioned.
that said, i can't say what we would do in the future for feats that don't exist as we have no context
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
do y'all agree with my arguments for Charlie having straight wall level? let's keep trolling to a minimum since crts like this are barely seen
- 6,280
- 4,061
I don't really like "potential scaling". Also, he scales to Angel Dust, who scales to Cherri Bomb, who scales to Valentino, who scales to stronger Vox, while Katie is just a journalist who also gushes for base Vox.
But, that may be an issue with scaling Cherri Bomb to Valentino which never made any freaking sense to me.
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
1st, it's a demon form. By nature, she's above regular sinners.
2nd, idk why everyone's so confused on this, but Pentious durability scales to angel dust, cherri, and all those currently overlord level. It's literally on his profile and justified not only in gen thread and mega crt but also profile. To quote myself, "Husker states he can take a beating, Pentious survives a Zeatial attack, He survived said Alastor attack, he survives a big explosion in heaven and only breaks his arm.
anti feats? Getting crushed by a class g tentacle as a class k
Get stated to be a wussy sinner by oudated WoG with instory lore stating he and baxter worked to try become overlord, there for escaping the weak sinners who get killed by overlord attacks get harmed by the Adam Slayer, the top one in the verse Be goated and have feats unlike Goetia
"To add to this, we see in the clip where pentious takes a Zestial blast, we see Baxter's weird creation get split in half by the same attack.
PENTIOUS PHYSCIAL PUNCHING POWER AND LS IS TRASH (Constistently stated and shown to be a nonfighter), BUT MAKES UP FOR IT FOR BEING A STONE WALL!
- 6,280
- 4,061
Why do we assume all Sinners are equal? We don't assume that being in the same race means equal scaling with many other verses.
Oh wait, I saw 9-B rating and thought he scales to Angel Dust, I lowkey forgot there was a 8-C upgrade bruh.
- 1,131
- 334
- Thread starter
- #70
So would you want me to switch your vote?
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,886
- 6,107
Yes. Cuz Pentious is NOTED to have weak physicals (both in and out of series), but can take a beating, something i mentioned in my reply, therefore, she doesn't scale to his high durability at all.
I...mentioned that? Hence, i vote she gets straight up Wall, rather than 9-C as i don't agree with it anymore.
1st, we didn't see litterally 1 second of their fight. 2nd, I didn't decuced anything, We see her land only 2 hits. We can't assume she landed more without evidence. The last point is admittedly a pretty good point but, again, we don't know the circumstances of the fight as it happened mostly offscreen. For all we know, Vaggie could've interveen but, again, that's an assumption. We don't just assume things here,
Didn't say she didn't, hence why i think she's straight up wall level
if you're being pushed down and could get out of it, you would.
She phyiscally pushing them back in order try to get to her friend alastor. Why would she not be pushing her hardest to get to him, something we see her try but fail and get overpowered
1st, i don't know what you're refering to so i won't comment on feats or anti-feats i haven't seen nor don't know the context of them (or have forgotten).
2nd, from what i have seen and what Eden yaps about in other CRT, regular humans in the hellaverse ain't regular. In fact, a regular human and regular shotgun pierced Blitzo before, Human Children knocked out Moxxie, and a human knocked out Millie so i don't think it's outlandish.
A Robo-Fizz , which I.M.P. is able to fight, is able to put up a decent fight against Cherri bomb, who currently scales to Val, who can harm (a supressed to an unknown but high degree) Weakened Alastor, who splatters Reg sinners invincible style after getting hit by Alastor being sent away from Vox's Lightning attack.
Imps are strong bro
Reaper and I already talked about this point in another reply but i'll put it here so i'll but both of them here for easiness of staff
Jusification for those wonder: "Tanked one of Cherri bombs Explosions to the face, only being stunned due to having bad eyesight"
We don't assume anything without proper scaling chains. She has zero feats scaling to him
I'll get to the rest at a later date as i'm on borrowed time and in a rush but, All that said
If members of the same race of the same status with zero statements of these members of the race being exceptional, they should all relative.
Besides, we used sinners being relative before to downgrade the verse before in this CRT. Why can't they be in a way to upscale?
Mythic381
He/Him- 2,521
- 1,529
Durability is part of physicals. Him being able to endure those beatings would logically upscale the rest of the characters. A demon form that Charlie can hurt being included.
Pentious has 9-B durability. If Charlie can hurt someone who scales higher than him, she should get 9-B too.
I don't think it's hard to understand that I'm over-exaggerating how short their fight is. We only see the parts when Katie is restraining her, followed by Charlie kicking her away. That's the only relevant part to the fight.
Point is that you deduced she only landed 2 hits despite the fight going on for longer apart from the clips we see. This doesn't make sense, considering at some point Charlie straight up launches herself at Katie, which leads to them obviously brawling.
Like I said, Charlie straight up launches herself at Katie.
Vaggie doesn't have any noticeable damage like Charlie does. She also did not seemingly intervene at the start, so I doubt it.
This doesn't change much of the point anyways, Charlie can clearly harm Katie in her demon form.
What exactly would be the proof that demon form Katie Killjoy should not scale to character notably known for being weak.
If you actually check the clip, she only has one hand over her head. Call that restraining, even though it clearly isn't, as Charlie too has one hand over Katie's shoulder.
That's not what happened though. Rewatching the clip shows that she got lifted up by the sinners and pushed away. All she did was push back one sinner, before she stops and starts getting pushed back herself.
There's literally no important context.
That's a shotgun. The did not "pierce" Blitzo.
Are you trying to say human children are apparently stronger than Charlie and Sir Pentious? Those are clear outliers, we've seen them literally beat up multiple trained humans in D.H.O.R.K.S.
Not even the same Robo-Fizz, so this is a crazy assumption. Even the newer one from the Vees seems to be more advanced.
Don't care. Point isn't even important. We even see that Cherri's bombs don't do the same level of destruction in every instance they are used. They didn't even destroy any of the surroundings when she threw it at Valentino, but can usually destroy walls in the Hazbin Hotel.
That wasn't my point.
- 6,280
- 4,061
That’s just too assumptuous for my taste, but we can agree to disagree.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked