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Charlie Morningstar is not weaker than all of hell

Just_Butchering said:
If we agree on Sinners > Imps, then Charlie should definitely scale too. Specially since she fought a transformed Katie.
Click to expand...
Katie is like random ahh journalist (that sucks up to Vox a ton). Rn we accept the main cast to be nearly as strong as Overlords. So if anything that is a contradiction to Charlie being comparable to the cast or stronger than imps.
Also was Katie actually transformed?
 
Nur096 said:
If this gets accepted, then Charlie should be given at least Class K for her magical LS. Together with 11 other characters, she helped lift the MoL




1600 / 12 = around 133 tons of magical LS
Click to expand...

Mythic381 said:
🤓

Anyways the only outlier part is them scaling to it's power (technically not even an outlier, they straight up scale to it via amps) and multiple characters already scale to class K.
Click to expand...
that is true, the only outlier was the MoL power, the weight is fair game
 
Call me Sukuna cuz i've returned and only got limited time.
sukunas-move-in-anime-and-manga-v0-n38cnhsldzxb1.jpg

Here we go
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him, Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie. We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
"She helped against the Exorcists so she's gotta scale to sinners"
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
2nd, not hard to help with a tier 5 shield, strong magic, and comparable speed to literally everyone
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards? Y'all can't say this reasoning is unfounded as this point is also a point of evidence against invulnerable Excorcists, iirc.
So, what do i vote for? Remove 9-C, give her straight 9-B. i really only gave her 9-C because she had no direct comparison to Pentious but, as i research this response, i see she doesn't need it due ro her fighr with katie and Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
y'all can rip my mobile maded response but this is my answer. You're not changing my mind and i doubt I've changed yours. it doesn't matter...so be kind and respectful.
yuji.gif
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him,
Click to expand...
Okay? He still has strong durability compared to his AP, which mind you, Charlie has lower durability than him. Charlie was able to kick someone in their demon form who should be stronger than Pentious, what's your point? Especially when you mention "regular sinners" which Katie Killjoy should logically be one of them, as she uses her demon form against Charlie.
Anonymous_Learner said:
Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie.
Click to expand...
We literally see 1 second of their fight, and yet you deduced that Charlie only lands 2 hits, when we literally see her after the fight being totally fine. And to be logical, there's no way Charlie could've lost the fight and looked fine like that after.

Also Charlie did clearly did do damage. If she didn't, there would've been no reason Katie couldn't just attack her again, instead of just standing there and looking annoyed. Not everyone who gets punched needs to have a bloody face to imply they were damaged.

I also don't see how you deduced that Katie having her hands around Charlie in this way implies she was being overpowered or restrained.
Anonymous_Learner said:
We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
Click to expand...
This is a stupid argument. Charlie didn't even attempt to physically overpower them properly, and we know Charlie doesn't like to use her authority. Yes, she did scream "I'm the princess of Hell" but she didn't really do anything after that. Blitzo only tossed a sinner who was distracted. Also by that logic we've also seen Blitzo get beaten up by humans in Seeing Stars.
Anonymous_Learner said:
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
Click to expand...
Them being superior to their species isn't them being like on level with sinners, as we've never seen them go against one properly, nor do we see them fight a demon form too. Also using Moxxie is stupid when he's practically not that strong. They have literally no merit at all to scale to Sinners.
Anonymous_Learner said:
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
Click to expand...
First off, absolutely not what tanking means. These bombs hurt characters like Valentino, so if we assume Charlie scales to Valentino, it would still hurt her, and same thing with Pentious.

Obviously Charlie would be terrified? You're talking about a sheltered princess who dislikes violence and barely understands how her powers work. Why shouldn't she be terrified of bomb? Alastor was flabbergasted when Valentino attacked him with a gun, what's your point? Also that thing was blowing up the hotel, so further more reason to be scared of.
Anonymous_Learner said:
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
Click to expand...
We canonically know that demon forms are activated via emotions, and Charlie is a person who can't really control her emotions that well.

  • She got enraged when she saw Valentino pushing Angel Dust.
  • Got visibly crying and then angry when she saw Pentious literally die.
Charlie didn't go into her demon form while fighting Katie Killjoy, nor did she when Vox was obliterating everything, or when they started stopping Might of Lilith.

Obviously she'll get the experienced demon who is also one of the most powerful people she knows to fight Adam, over herself, someone who isn't experienced in fighting or using her own abilities.

Her being able to damage Katie Killjoy on it's own should already put her above Sir Pentious easily. There's quite literally no reason for Katie Killjoy in her demon form who wasn't scared to fight the literal princess of Hell, to have worse durability than Sir Pentious in his base form.
Anonymous_Learner said:
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards?
Click to expand...
First off, they were straight up created by Lucifer, not "picked."

Second off, Stolas can one-shot Imps and has bodyguards, what's exactly the point here? Charlie is still a notably inexperienced fighter who is also a pacifist. It feels you just keep ignoring that.
 
Mythic381 said:
First off, absolutely not what tanking means. These bombs hurt characters like Valentino
Click to expand...
You realize she only threw a bomb after being told "His eyes are shit", right? And he had no visible damage but was blinded/had his eyes hurt from the brightness?
Mythic381 said:
First off, they were straight up created by Lucifer, not "picked."
Click to expand...
So where's this stated beyond WoGlaverse-- sorry, WoG.
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
Call me Sukuna cuz i've returned and only got limited time.
sukunas-move-in-anime-and-manga-v0-n38cnhsldzxb1.jpg

Here we go
Pentious got weak physicals (Stated repeatedly by WoG and affirmed in series [Something that is needed thanks to This CRT, though, tbf, plans to fully enforce this are coming down the line] as he states he can't fight without his eggs, Vaggie says he's no threat to them, Angel Dust (Mostly) overpowers him with Pentious needing Hypnosis to get Angel Dust to back off him, both of Angel Dust and Vaggie were gonna kill Pentious in the "It Starts With Sorry" song), and it's repeatedly shown in the pilot and especially the main series that he relies on his inventions. Regular sinners overpower him, Charlie (while she's able to put a good fight) literally gets pinned down most of the fight against Demon Form Katie Killjoy. She lands only two hits, a kick that Staggers her but no notable damage and pushing her back with a lunge with the last footage of the fight being Charlie being overpowered by Katie. We're also shown in the main series that Charlie, physically resisting mind you and really trying to get to the currently captured Alastor, can get overwhelmed by a group of sinners with a regular sinner able to push her away. Meanwhile, Blitzo can easily toss sinners.
"She can't be weaker than imps since they're on the bottom of the hierarchy!" 1st, we don't even use that old thing. Don't bring it up now. 2nd, Blitzo and Striker are verbatim stated to be above most of their imp kind (Affirmed by how Blitzo Regularly bullies Moxxie, compete Millie while she trying to kill hi while actively trying to recruit her mind conversation with him even able to over power her momentarily when serious, and show relativity to Striker. Striker can defeat Millie and Moxxie with him also easily lift something Millie said was heavy with his tail). Moxxie and Millie (and thr leaches that scale to them), while weaker, aren't leaps and bounds weaker than them so, even if we take the chart at face value, they'd be an exception.
"She helped against the Exorcists so she's gotta scale to sinners"
1st, when encounter a Cherri bomb...bomb, something Sir Pentious tanked in the Pilot, Something Sir Pentious' ship tanked in the main series, something that Valentino face tank, the thing that grants the 8-C scale, she's terrified of it, panicking and wanting to get it away, while Vaggie was calm about it and removed it from her girlfriend's presence.
2nd, not hard to help with a tier 5 shield, strong magic, and comparable speed to literally everyone
Charlie consistently goes into her demon form whenever she wants to fight strong people (Adam in "Hell's Forever", Val in Season 1 ep 4, Adam during trial, Adam again when Pentious died [with her previously admitting she sent Alastor to fight him over, idk, herself], Adam when she was about to attack her dad, and Vox in season 2 when they tried speed running redemption in season 2) with her best feat being her magic being on par with overlords but, not only is that accepted as outlier, unlike the Vees, Husk, Niffty, and Weakened Al, she's never endured her own magic or endured magic attacks so no physical scaling so, similar to the goetia, at best, she has >>>Pentious physicals with Overlord level magic with her demon form being possibly overlord level.
all of this witjout even mentioning that Charlie has bodyguards in Razzle and Dazzle seemingly hand picked by Lucifer himself specifically there to protect her. If Charlie's absurdly above sinners to the point where they splatter in her presence invincible style or, idk, like how everytime a powerful overlord comes into contact with regular sinners, why would Lucifer give he4 the bodyguards? Y'all can't say this reasoning is unfounded as this point is also a point of evidence against invulnerable Excorcists, iirc.
So, what do i vote for? Remove 9-C, give her straight 9-B. i really only gave her 9-C because she had no direct comparison to Pentious but, as i research this response, i see she doesn't need it due ro her fighr with katie and Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
y'all can rip my mobile maded response but this is my answer. You're not changing my mind and i doubt I've changed yours. it doesn't matter...so be kind and respectful.
yuji.gif
Click to expand...
I had to make a new section for wall level because I cant just shift orange or reaper without them saying so, also, does this genuinely mean that if Charlie DOES get anything from S3 that we'd genuinely count that as a separate key? Because all of this really looks like that
 
I'm busy as of late and working on responding to @Mythic381 but I'll spare some time to mak3 a quick reply
DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt said:
I had to make a new section for wall level because I cant just shift orange or reaper without them saying so, also, does this genuinely mean that if Charlie DOES get anything from S3 that we'd genuinely count that as a separate key? Because all of this really looks like that
Click to expand...
if she oneshots a sinner in base in season 3 consistently, a discussion will be made as to what will be done with her due to what i previously mentioned.
that said, i can't say what we would do in the future for feats that don't exist as we have no context
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
do y'all agree with my arguments for Charlie having straight wall level? let's keep trolling to a minimum since crts like this are barely seen
Click to expand...
Anonymous_Learner said:
Demon Form Katie should be superior to regular sinners who are physically superior to Pentious in every way besides his durability.
Click to expand...
I don't really like "potential scaling". Also, he scales to Angel Dust, who scales to Cherri Bomb, who scales to Valentino, who scales to stronger Vox, while Katie is just a journalist who also gushes for base Vox.
But, that may be an issue with scaling Cherri Bomb to Valentino which never made any freaking sense to me.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
I don't really like "potential scaling". Also, he scales to Angel Dust, who scales to Cherri Bomb, who scales to Valentino, who scales to stronger Vox, while Katie is just a journalist who also gushes for base Vox.
But, that may be an issue with scaling Cherri Bomb to Valentino which never made any freaking sense to me.
Click to expand...
1st, it's a demon form. By nature, she's above regular sinners.
2nd, idk why everyone's so confused on this, but Pentious durability scales to angel dust, cherri, and all those currently overlord level. It's literally on his profile and justified not only in gen thread and mega crt but also profile. To quote myself, "Husker states he can take a beating, Pentious survives a Zeatial attack, He survived said Alastor attack, he survives a big explosion in heaven and only breaks his arm.
anti feats? Getting crushed by a class g tentacle as a class k ❌ Get stated to be a wussy sinner by oudated WoG with instory lore stating he and baxter worked to try become overlord, there for escaping the weak sinners who get killed by overlord attacks❌ get harmed by the Adam Slayer, the top one in the verse❌ Be goated and have feats unlike Goetia✅"
To add to this, we see in the clip where pentious takes a Zestial blast, we see Baxter's weird creation get split in half by the same attack.
PENTIOUS PHYSCIAL PUNCHING POWER AND LS IS TRASH (Constistently stated and shown to be a nonfighter), BUT MAKES UP FOR IT FOR BEING A STONE WALL!
 
Anonymous_Learner said:
1st, it's a demon form. By nature, she's above regular sinners.
Click to expand...
Why do we assume all Sinners are equal? We don't assume that being in the same race means equal scaling with many other verses.
Anonymous_Learner said:
2nd, idk why everyone's so confused on this, but Pentious durability scales to angel dust, cherri, and all those currently overlord level. It's literally on his profile and justified not only in gen thread and mega crt but also profile.
Click to expand...
Anonymous_Learner said:
PENTIOUS PHYSCIAL PUNCHING POWER AND LS IS TRASH (Constistently stated and shown to be a nonfighter), BUT MAKES UP FOR IT FOR BEING A STONE WALL!
Click to expand...
Oh wait, I saw 9-B rating and thought he scales to Angel Dust, I lowkey forgot there was a 8-C upgrade bruh.
 
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