SomebodyData
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Dragon Ball Lifting Strength Revision
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
- Start date
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- dragon ball
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SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
VS Battles
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So we would base the "likely" lifting strength scaling chain primarily on Great Ape Goku's feat?
Wouldn't this be too small a justification?
Especially with the problems with the other supporting feat from Blue is in question (not to mention, it wasn't even accepted) and the other issues with scaling off a giant character.
- 22,680
- 23,214
Likely would be whatever scaling is accepted for that particular arc. I think Great Ape Goku doesn't get general scaling until either Tao or the 22nd WMAT. Before then it would be other feats.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 6,732
- 6,128
The first calc only makes a "mistake" on thickness, the result will likely drop by a factor of 10.
The outer walls are absolutely made out of steel. ("The current enclosures of hard plastic or 14 gauge steel", "Telephone enclosures designed for institutional use ... are constructed from heavy duty (14 gauge) steel housing" and "The steel arrives at the manufacturing plant in thick sheets"
And it bent like steel. Still a solid Class M feat, from whom Tao Pai Pai one shot with his tongue.
- 1,578
- 1,252
Actually, after giving it some thought, I think I agree with Qawsedf here
While I do still believe Tao's feat is legit, I also have to admit it is quite a bit higher compared to every other feat we're shown up to that point, and given how dire the situation already is regarding anti-feats, having that one be an outlier compared to the rest is unfortunately kinda fair
Also, yeah, that phone booth feat needs to be recalced
While I do still believe Tao's feat is legit, I also have to admit it is quite a bit higher compared to every other feat we're shown up to that point, and given how dire the situation already is regarding anti-feats, having that one be an outlier compared to the rest is unfortunately kinda fair
Also, yeah, that phone booth feat needs to be recalced
- 21,509
- 36,025
Place me in both agrees with OP and split
- 19,725
- 21,171
Can't verbatim quote the whole reply because the original was 250k and the post limit exists... Unless ya'll want the big one, I still have it in a note.
But think I covered everything anyhow. Each lil section starts with either the exact/condensed quote so nobody can act like I'm strawmanning things.
Do note; I haven't read much stuff since yesterday so if stances changed since or whatnot, I wouldn't know.
But think I covered everything anyhow. Each lil section starts with either the exact/condensed quote so nobody can act like I'm strawmanning things.
Do note; I haven't read much stuff since yesterday so if stances changed since or whatnot, I wouldn't know.
And:
And:
This keeps rewriting the very argument.
This isn't:
- "Statements automatically beat feats".
- direct quantified load scenes + shown effort + shown failure + repeated weight/gravity/load mechanics + later direct caps + often actively explained process
- a mixed high-feat pile made of boulders, jumps, throws, giant bodies, TK, lung force, momentum, object deformation, and other mechanically different scenes.
A manga scene where the load is given, the character interacts with that load, and the scene is directly about whether that load matters is stronger LS evidence than a fan-inferred value from an action panel unless the inferred high side can prove it's more direct, more comparable, more consistent, and more representative.
That's literally the entire dispute.
The high side keeps trying to make this about a fake rule where "direct statement wins because direct statement". But that was never the argument or "rule" being used here.
The point is that Dragon Ball repeatedly uses the same kind of weight/load/gravity framework, while the high side is counting a pile of physically different, contradictory things as if they're one coherent LS pattern.
The actual question isn't:
- "Are there higher-looking feats?"
The actual question is:
- "Do those higher-looking feats form a coherent conventional LS standard strong enough to override the direct load chain?"
There's a huge difference between:
- "This object weighs [thing], this character visibly struggles/fails with [thing], and the story is directly about whether they can handle [thing]".
- "This action panel can be calced to [thing] if we assume this size, this material, this motion, this angle, this contact, this timeframe, this mass, and this mechanic".
The lower side isn't merely "more direct" in the shallow sense of "number is written". It has multiple quality traits at once:
- the value is directly given,
- how and why is often directly explained,
- the character's effort is shown,
- the scene is specifically about weight/load/gravity,
- the mechanic repeats over time,
- the values escalate in a sensible way,
- later direct caps keep landing in the same general zone,
- multiple active callbacks and showings tie into it,
- and it's internally coherent.
If someone wants to reject that, fine, not everyone will agree. But then the high side has to prove its own pile is stronger. Ya'll can't just say "we have accepted calcs" and skip context, mechanics, chronology, effort, and caps.
Accepted as a calc isn't the same thing as accepted as a clean, conventional, series-wide LS anchor. The wiki has plenty of calcs that are accepted, but not used for one reason or another.
A calc can be mathematically fine and still be suspect as a representative scaling point once compared to chronology, effort, mechanics, and direct caps.
Which is literally what this thread is about.
Same with:
- "the wiki doesn't treat statements as sacred ceilings".
Nobody said every statement is sacred.
Nobody said every visible strain is a universal cap that can never change.
The OP itself already separates training thresholds from hard caps.
The point is that Dragon Ball repeatedly uses weight, gravity, and load burdens as meaningful physical markers. That includes:
- soft thresholds,
- training burdens,
- explicit gravity burdens,
- direct weight statements,
- failed movement,
- and hard caps.
So when the response is:
- "VSBW doesn't treat every statement as a sacred cap",
The argument is:
- direct quantified load interactions with a bunch of supportive facets act as higher-quality LS evidence than mechanically mixed action calcs unless those calcs form a stronger coherent trend.
- "Do direct statements automatically beat feats?"
The vote should be:
- "Does Dragon Ball's repeated stated-and-shown load/gravity/weight chain outweigh a mechanically mixed, internally inconsistent high-calc pile?"
And the OP not listing every low showing doesn't make the low side thin either.
The OP isn't a complete list of every low LS showing or awkward physical portrayal in Dragon Ball. It never claimed to be. It's the main direct weight/gravity/load progression chain.
If the goal were to list every lower or awkward LS scene, the thread would be a bloated mess. There are other lower showings outside the chain.
They just aren't needed for the main argument.
The point isn't:
- "Here are literally the only low scenes in Dragon Ball".
- "Here is the repeated direct framework the manga itself keeps using when it actually quantifies load, weight, gravity, training burden, and failed movement".
The direct chain doesn't end in Chapter 54. It continues through weighted clothing, King Kai's 10G, Namek gravity training, 100G, 300G, Buu Saga weights, Z-Sword, Magetta, and later cap-breakers.
Early DB is just where it starts.
So no, the OP being focused doesn't make the low side thin. It means the OP isn't trying to pad the thread with every possible low-end scene the way the high side pads its pile with every possible physical-looking action.
Also not sure why, but a lot of the reply is a tad iffy:
- "Two functioning neurons".
- "Why did you waste time responding to that?"
The point isn't:
- "statements are sacred".
- the direct chain is more coherent than the high pile,
- the high pile is mechanically mixed,
- the high pile is internally inconsistent,
- the high pile treats non-LS stuff as LS,
- the high pile treats uncertainty as fatal only when the result is low,
- the high pile uses strict physics only when it attacks the chain,
- and the high pile hides behind "accepted calcs" without proving those calcs are accepted as representative LS anchors.
Don't spend thousands of words fighting "direct statements automatically win" when that isn't the argument being made.
And:
And:
This treats the current high rating like it's neutral.
It isn't.
Using high calcs over direct load caps is also a choice. Treating jumps, throws, giant forms, TK, lung force, momentum, object damage, and boulder calcs as one LS body is also a methodology. Treating currently accepted calcs as the "norm" before proving they form a coherent norm is also a conclusion, not a neutral starting point.
A CRT exists because current treatment can be wrong. "Already accepted" doesn't make a calc immune to being challenged as a scaling anchor.
A calc can be accepted mathematically and still fail as the representative LS standard once mechanics, chronology, effort, contradictions, and direct caps are checked.
So no, this isn't:
- "the current rating is neutral, and the direct chain has to justify disturbing it".
- both sides are proposing how to handle contradictory evidence.
That has to be weighed. And once weighed, the direct chain has the better evidence quality.
The Qaws point doesn't fix this either.
The key word is "if".
If we had 17 straightforward, accepted, conventional LS feats above 40 tons, all comparable and coherent, then maybe.
That isn't what the high side has.
The high side is counting a mixed pile:
- boulder calcs,
- tree calcs,
- jump feats,
- dynamic throws,
- giant body mechanics,
- TK,
- lung force,
- building/momentum interactions,
- object deformation,
- rock scaling,
- calcs that aren't even correct anyway,
- and other stuff that isn't all the same type of evidence.
Some aren't static lifting.
Some aren't even muscle output in the same sense.
Some depend on questionable scaling.
Some contradict nearby scenes.
Some contradict later scenes.
Some contradict each other.
"17 accepted calcs" doesn't answer the actual issue.
Accepted as what?
Accepted math?
Accepted one-off feat?
Accepted physical LS?
Accepted scaling basis?
Accepted as overriding direct caps?
Those are all different things.
And the "27 feats vs 19 anti-feats" framing doesn't help anyone.
A count only matters if the counted things are comparable.
Even by that framing, 19 alleged anti-feats isn't a tiny pile. That's admitting the lower/direct side has a large amount of contrary evidence relative to the self-admitted incoherent pile.
Additionally, the high count is inflated by mixing different mechanics together all while not aligning either way.
So the number sounds better than it is.
- "27 vs 19" is not "a coherent norm vs a few weird anti-feats".
It doesn't.
Also, Qaws isn't site law. He is one staff member.
Even if he leans against this, that doesn't make his comment a rule that every mixed Dragon Ball calc is inherently conventional LS.
Don't throw him under the bus by acting like his quote proves more than it says.
Accepted as a calc is not the same thing as accepted as the representative LS standard.
This thread is about whether those higher values should define the rating. You can't argue that by simply calling them accepted.
If that was all that mattered, I could calc a few dozen low-end DB feats that align with the cap and go:
- "damn there's more calcs for this, ignore context and nuance, slap them down lmao".
The inconsistency-page argument has the same issue.
It only works if the higher values actually form the norm. That's literally being disputed.
The page says an inconsistency is an occurrence that differs from the norm. Yet this entire thread is about what the norm actually is.
You can't assume the high calc pile is the norm, then use that assumption to say the lower direct chain is the inconsistency.
That's circular, self-fulfilling, begging the question, whatever you wanna call it.
The page also allows inconsistencies both ways. High showings can be inconsistent too.
If the high pile is mechanically mixed, internally contradictory, calc-dependent, and doesn't line up with itself, then those higher showings are liable to be the inconsistent side, not the lower.
This gets worse as it's basically admitting the high pile hasn't established itself as a coherent norm.
It's been said the high pile isn't internally consistent.
Some feats don't cohere.
For example, if Tao is the early-DB LS standard, it dwarfs many later feats done by much stronger characters.
Then says no single scale accurately represents the evidence?
Conceding such a thing is damning.
You can't use the inconsistency page as if the higher feats are already the accepted norm while also saying the high pile is not internally consistent and no single scale represents the evidence.
Those aren't compatible.
- If the high pile isn't internally consistent, it hasn't proven itself as the norm.
- If no single scale accurately represents the evidence, then the high scale isn't the norm.
If the "norm" is a mess of Tao at hundreds of thousands of tons, Giant Piccolo around 116 tons, dynamic throws, jumps, TK, lung force, momentum, boulder calcs, bad tree scales, and later 1,000-ton failure, then that isn't a norm. It's incoherent.
A norm needs to be coherent enough to function as the standard.
You can't say:
- "These higher feats are the norm".
- "Well, they don't need to be internally consistent".
It hasn't done that. It's mostly counted different kinds of physical-looking events together and treated quantity as a substitute for consistency, cohesion, and intent.
Same with:
- "even if the higher feats are internally inconsistent, so what?"
The entire high-side argument is based on the idea that the higher feats form a broader, more numerous, more representative body of evidence.
If that body of evidence is internally incoherent, then that absolutely matters.
You can't say:
- "we have more feats",
- "so what?"
The "what" is that quantity only matters if the quantity is made of usable evidence.
If the pile is:
- Class 5 effort here,
- Class 1 struggle there,
- Class M dynamic action there,
- Class K casual-ish boulder there,
- Class M failure nearby,
- Class G TK later,
- few-hundred-ton struggle somewhere else,
- back to 40 tons,
- Class T meme there,
- Class K crashout,
- then 1,000-ton failure,
- then momentum feat,
- then lung force,
That's just whatever high-looking number can be found at a given moment.
Internal consistency matters because the opposition is the one trying to use that very pile as the main rating.
If the high pile can't even agree with itself, it doesn't override the direct chain by being bigger. At that point, it isn't "feats vs. statements". It's feats vs. other feats vs. another set of feats vs. direct load feats, because that same pile fell apart into a bunch of conflicting feats, a lot of which still act as anti-feats to the argued ratings.
The "lowest possible interpretation of the high feats still crushes direct values" also isn't proven.
Not universally, anyway, in fact it's outright not true.
- The Goku boulder feat swings massively depending on method. Whole magnitudes even.
- The Z-Sword becomes a problem when it's treated directly.
- The Namek rock becomes a problem when the tree scale is questioned and character-adjacent visuals don't support the huge version.
- Giant Piccolo is around 116 tons by the value being discussed, which isn't some clean universal reset, especially when it gets undercut by earlier/later stuff in both directions.
- Tao's pillar is the opposite of stable; it spikes absurdly high and breaks later material. Honestly, it's liable to be an outlier even among the high-end stuff.
So no, "even the lowest interpretation crushes everything" isn't proven. In some cases it isn't even true.
What they mean here isn't "the lowest version of every high feat".
He means:
- "the lowest version of the absolute extreme feats I still want to keep".
Once you stop using the most inflated version of every action calc, a lot of these either fall closer to the direct chain, stop being standard LS at all, or become incoherent with other high-side examples.
Unknown/split is also not a high-side win.
If the position is:
- "the high pile is too messy, the direct chain exists, but the verse is too inconsistent for one clean rating, so maybe Unknown/split",
That's not the same as:
- "the higher feats are more numerous and override the direct chain".
The high side can't argue for pages that the high feats are the broader representative body, then when the contradictions are exposed, pivot to Unknown/split and pretend that was the same thing.
Unknown/split means the high pile failed to cleanly establish itself too.
And "outliers are a last resort" doesn't mean every higher calc is untouchable.
This IS the last resort, it's that bad, the very fact the "Unknown" rating is being suggested is proof of it.
This is exactly the kind of case where inconsistency analysis applies:
- the source repeatedly pushes one direct framework,
- while the higher-looking pile depends on mixed mechanics, dynamic actions, calc assumptions, and values that don't line up.
- "I dislike higher feats, so throw them away".
- "the higher pile loses on directness, consistency, mechanics, and source treatment".
They bounce around, often against each other.
Treating that mess like a coherent standard because it "seemingly" has more bullet points is absurd, not what was said above.
"Majority" only matters if the feats being counted are comparable evidence.
If you count every jump, throw, boulder push, object break, body-size transformation, TK feat, lung force feat, momentum scene, and environmental damage calc as the same kind of LS evidence, then yeah, you can inflate a big pile for almost any action-heavy character. Can do it in reverse too if you wanted.
That doesn't mean the pile is coherent.
Ten apples and ten oranges don't make twenty apples.
Likewise, ten jumps, five throws, two TK feats, a breath feat, a momentum feat, and a few object-damage calcs don't make one clean conventional LS chain.
Outlier analysis isn't just:
- "which side has more bullet points?"
- How direct is the feat?
- Is it actually LS?
- Is it lifting, pushing, pulling, holding, restraining, moving weight, or resisting load?
- Is it striking, destruction, leverage, momentum, TK, breath, giant-body weirdness, or even AP?
- Is it repeated in comparable contexts?
- Is it contradicted by direct caps?
- Does it fit the normal portrayal?
- Does the source treat it as that kind of strength
- Does it form a coherent rating?
And:
This is way too loose.
To be clear, the issue is NOT:
- "throws, jumps, crushing feats, or body movement can never be LS".
- A jump could be LS-adjacent.
- A throw could be LS.
- A crushing feat could be LS.
- A body stopped in motion could be LS.
- A heavy object moved across distance could be LS.
That's the part ya'll keep skipping.
There's a massive difference between:
- "this character directly tries to move a stated 1,000-ton target and fails".
- "this character does an action scene that can be reverse-engineered into a range of tons if we pick this size, material, method, contact, motion, timeframe, physical model, and assume it's consistent, understood, or intended enough to contradict the above".
The second one depends on more interpretation, assumptions, guesswork, extrapolation, and benefit of the doubt.
And Dragon Ball is exactly the kind of series where that distinction matters, because the lad himself keeps saying the source is messy, Toriyama wasn't thinking about every physical implication, and the high pile isn't internally coherent.
That's basically conceding why those feats are subject to scrutiny.
You don't get to say:
- "these are all physical expressions of strength",
- Every punch is a physical expression of strength.
- Every jump is a physical expression of strength.
- Every throw is a physical expression of strength.
- Every impact is a physical expression of strength.
- Every giant movement is a physical expression of strength.
- Every beam clash has a physical-looking component.
- Every statement is a physical expression of strength.
- Every feat you'd want to deny is a physical expression of strength.
- Every cap is a physical expression of strength.
- Etc.
That isn't a usable standard.
- LS isn't "anything involving force".
- LS isn't "anything physical".
- LS isn't "every combat interaction that would imply force under real physics".
That's not how the stat is indexed, and it isn't how most verses, DB included, treats it.
LS is still useful. It's useful for lifting, pushing, pulling, holding, restraining, grappling, load-bearing, moving weights, resisting loads, and similar mechanics.
It just needs to be analyzed contextually.
So if Dragon Ball's LS looks weirdly low compared to AP, yeah. That's the point. It is what it is either way.
Weird doesn't mean unusable. It means AP and LS are separate stats, and direct LS evidence has to be weighed as LS evidence, not overwritten by combat vibes.
If someone wants Dragon Ball's LS to scale from AP or general combat force, that's a separate standards argument.
Under the current stat split, direct load evidence matters.
Now, different mechanics don't make something automatically irrelevant, sure.
But they absolutely matter when deciding whether evidence is comparable, explicit, intended, or straightforward.
This is where the reply keeps doing a bait-and-switch.
Nobody said:
- "Mechanically different, so erase it".
- "Mechanically different, so don't count it like it's the same evidence as a direct lift/failure/load scene when it's far more liable to have room for error, unintended consequences, and context issues".
A jump isn't a lift.
TK isn't muscle.
Lung force isn't hand lifting.
Giant-form self-movement isn't external load.
Momentum isn't dead weight.
Object deformation isn't a carrying cap.
All of those can be discussed in a vacuum if coherent and non-contradictory, but none of them get to be blindly merged into one "higher LS feats" pile.
If ya'll want to use them, defend them as LS, as scaling, as comparable, and as more reliable than the direct chain.
Ya'll keep skipping that and acting like "physical output" is enough.
It isn't.
And "some Class M / low Class G feats remain after removing Tao/Giant Piccolo" still does not amount to that.
Then defend those feats individually.
- Which ones are conventional LS?
- Which ones are static lifting, pushing, or pulling?
- Which ones scale to the character physically?
- Which ones are not TK?
- Which ones are not momentum?
- Which ones are not breath output?
- Which ones are not giant-form weirdness?
- Which ones do not depend on disputed scaling?
- Which ones fit the chronology?
- Which ones have enough backing to override Magetta, Z-Sword, Buu weights, gravity burdens, and nearby low showings?
It just means the pile still needs to be sorted.
And the second you sort it, a bunch of the "high pile" stops being one pile.
And yes, it's "worth" responding to "no one said the feats were identical", not a "waste of time", because the count argument treats them as if they're comparable enough to count together as it is.
If the argument is:
- "we have more higher feats than alleged lower anti-feats",
You can't count jumps, TK, momentum, throws, body-size movement, and object damage in one pile, compare that pile to direct load scenes that are clear and cohesive, then act offended when someone says "these aren't the same kind of evidence".
If you're counting them together, comparability matters.
- Are they intended?
- Are they explicit?
- Did Toriyama know what he was doing?
- Do the mechanics complicate their usability?
Of course Dragon Ball has many kinds of physical scenes.
The issue is treating diversity as if it automatically makes the high pile stronger, when it creates the exact problem being criticized.
A throw, a jump, TK, lung force, giant-body self-movement, object damage, compression, momentum, and direct load failure aren't the same kind of LS evidence.
Some can be relevant.
Some can even be good.
But they need to be sorted by what they actually prove.
Not:
- "Dragon Ball shows strength in many ways",
That isn't a method. It's just counting anything with force in it ya'll think you can get away with.
And ironically, the direct chain isn't as narrow as being argued.
It's not only static lifting.
The chain includes:
- worn load burden,
- gravity/bodyweight burden,
- body bearing load under increased gravity,
- joint/body-limb burden,
- pulling,
- compression,
- heavy-object handling,
- direct failed movement,
- throws,
- etc.
Gravity training isn't just a statement. It's the body bearing a multiplied load while moving, training, adapting, and sometimes failing.
Weighted clothing isn't just a number. It's worn burden affecting performance while using momentum.
Magetta isn't just a statement. It's Vegeta actively trying to move a stated mass and failing.
Kale isn't just a statement. She directly breaks through that 1,000-ton problem with effort and tosses the mf.
Hell, Goku and Yamcha low-"anti-feats" are even pushing.
So no, the direct side isn't elevating only one hyper-specific kind of scene while ignoring all else.
The direct side is using multiple physical modes too. The difference is that all of them are centered on the same stat-relevant idea:
load.
- Weight.
- Burden.
- Pulling.
- Bearing.
- Moving mass.
- Failing to move mass.
- Training under mass.
- Breaking past a mass limit.
The high pile's diversity isn't controlled like that.
It's:
- this boulder can be calced this way,
- this jump can be turned into this number,
- this throw maybe implies this,
- this giant body maybe means this,
- this TK feat maybe scales physically,
- this lung-force feat maybe counts,
- this building/momentum scene maybe counts,
- this object damage maybe gives this value,
- this background tree maybe makes the rock huge.
That's many different mechanics being pooled together because they're higher.
And that's especially weak when the same reply says Toriyama was bad with this, wasn't thinking scientifically, didn't respect the values, or that the evidence is incoherent.
Because if Toriyama allegedly wasn't thinking through the physical implications of explicit weight scenes, then why are we pretending he definitely thought through the physical implications of a jump calc, boulder calc, crush calc, or background scale?
That's selective.
If the author is messy with physical implications, the fan-derived action calcs aren't safer than the direct load scenes.
They're less safe, because their values aren't even supplied by the source.
They depend on size, material, motion, contact, angle, time, method, and whether the scene was ever meant to function as that kind of strength limit to begin with.
That doesn't make them worthless, but it does make them secondary unless they become clean, repeated, and coherent enough to beat the direct load chain.
They don't.
Diversity helps when different kinds of evidence converge.
Not when different kinds of evidence are being pooled to hide that they don't cohere.
And:
And:
This makes it sound like the scene is just:
- "statement says a number, so anti-feat".
These aren't throwaway stated values.
They're quantified load scenes where the manga gives the value, explains the burden, and shows the character interacting with that burden.
That's way stronger than "a statement attached to a showing".
The 300G scene is the obvious example.
The manga isn't merely saying:
"18 tons".
It's saying:
- Vegeta weighs about 60 kg, Briefs is even using an average like he did with Goku before.
- Multiply that by 300G.
- That is 60 kg, 300 times over.
- That makes the effective burden stated directly 18 tons per that very math.
- That burden is absurd for him currently.
- Then Vegeta is shown gasping and struggling under it.
That's the manga explaining the mechanism behind the value, applying the math, and showing the physical result.
The only way to make that not mean what it says is to argue something absurd like Vegeta secretly weighing thousands of tons, or that the manga's own 60 kg x 300G = 18 tons explanation should be ignored in favor of unrelated fan-calced action scenes that do the same basic "derive number from context" thing but in a way more extrapolated convoluted way.
Yeah nah.
Same with the Buu Saga weights.
The issue isn't "a statement says 40 tons". The scene shows Goku using 8 tons, having effort with it, then 40 tons being too much for base, then Super Saiyan being needed to get past it.
That's a direct load interaction.
Same with gravity training.
The issue isn't "a statement says gravity is high". The scene repeatedly treats gravity as multiplied body burden, shows the character being compromised, and shows them training past that burden.
Same with weighted clothing.
The issue isn't "a number exists". The manga shows the burden affecting performance.
Same with Magetta.
Vegeta doesn't merely hear "1,000 tons". He physically tries to move him and fails.
So no, this doesn't reduce to "statements beat feats" in the lazy way it keeps being framed.
It's:
- direct canonically intended quantified load evidence
- indirect inferred physical implications from action scenes.
And yes, the stated value matters.
Of course it matters?
That's the advantage here.
A quantified feat is stronger when the source gives the quantity instead of making fans reverse-engineer it from art.
A calc is also just a showing plus a value. The difference is that the value in the high calc is fan-supplied, while the value in these load scenes is source-supplied.
Why would the manga supplying the value make the evidence weaker?
That's backwards.
If anything, it means the evidence has more layers:
- the event happens,
- the burden is named,
- the mechanism is explained,
- the struggle or failure is shown,
- and the same kind of burden returns later.
This isn't anti-calc either mind you.
If we like calcs so much, the Z-Sword is a perfect example. The scene is actually meant to convey a heavy training-weight/object challenge, and when the weight/ground interaction is treated directly instead of inflated, it lands in the same broad zone as the direct chain.
That's the problem for the high side.
Even when we calculate one of the actual heavy-object scenes that's emphasized for longer than 3 seconds, it doesn't magically become Class G. It supports the same kind of load logic the manga is already using or lands suspiciously close to it
The "only anti-feats because of the statements" argument misses the point.
Yes, the statements are part of why the scenes are useful. That's how quantified evidence works.
But the statement isn't alone here. It's attached to direct interaction, direct struggle, direct failure, and sometimes an explicit explanation of the mechanic behind the value.
Meanwhile, a lot of the higher material is the opposite:
- a visual action scene,
- not directly about LS,
- not given a value by the source,
- not framed as a load limit,
- not explained mechanically,
- then later converted into tons through fan assumptions.
But it's not superior evidence.
And the Jolyne comparison doesn't help. That example isn't even slightly comparable. Jolyne's issue is closer to a direct limitation in a section where she has very little feats yet some damning caps for large portions, while Dragon Ball's weight/gravity chain is shown-and-stated load interaction across the series.
This comparison is being used to imply I'd reject this logic elsewhere, but that does not answer the actual DB evidence. I actively plan to downgrade Part 6 on basically every front soon.
Yes, dialogue limits can be contradicted.
Yes, a statement-only cap can be weaker than repeated higher showings.
In some cases that might be true.
But Dragon Ball's weight/gravity chain isn't just dialogue. It's shown-and-stated load interaction.
Base Goku doesn't merely say "40 tons is too much". He uses 8 tons with effort, then needs Super Saiyan for 40 tons.
Vegeta doesn't merely hear Magetta is 1,000 tons. He fails to move him.
Gravity training isn't just Dr. Brief saying a number. The burden is explained, then characters visibly struggle, train, adapt, or damage themselves under it.
That's the difference.
One is a character stating a limit.
The other is a direct performance scene with a supplied value.
A direct shown-and-stated limit is stronger than dialogue alone.
Calling these "anti-feats" doesn't make them lesser. It just means they're inconvenient to the current rating.
Sometimes the rating is what needs fixing.
And:
And:
It proves far more than a theme.
It proves the manga repeatedly uses the same kind of physical burden to show what's meaningful at each stage.
No, this isn't merely "heavy stuff appears sometimes".
The high side keeps attempting to downgrade the chain into soft training flavor, but that isn't what the scenes actually entail.
Some are soft thresholds, yes.
But a soft threshold is still a threshold.
And some aren't even that.
- Goku being massively compromised by Kaio's 10G isn't just "a theme".
- That's his body being actively compromised by an effective burden in the low-ton range, and none of that "well gravity heart" stuff erases it.
- His shirt was actively limiting him to the extent it's game-changing by his own admission.
- Goku working up to 100G after Briefs warns the pressure is dangerous isn't just "a theme". That's a direct ceiling at that point until he trains past it.
- Vegeta gasping under 300G, with the manga explicitly converting his bodyweight into 18 tons, isn't just "a theme". That's the manga directly telling us what burden is pushing him and showing that it's bad.
- Base Goku being unable to handle 40 tons in the Buu Saga isn't just "a theme". That's an actual ceiling for that state in that scene.
- He needs Super Saiyan to get past it.
- The Z-Sword making characters pop veins, strain like hell, and Shin/Kibito being unable to handle it isn't just "a theme". That's direct heavy-object limit evidence.
- Magetta being 1,000 tons and stopping Vegeta from moving him while Vegeta is visibly forcing it isn't just "a theme". That's a failed movement against a stated load.
That's objectively false.
The chain uses:
- soft thresholds,
- actual ceilings,
- and the secret third thing: not soft, not maximum, but actively compromising middles.
- 20 kg shells matter a bit.
- 40 kg shells matter some.
- 115 kg weighted clothing affects performance.
- 10G cripples Goku.
- 100G is dangerous enough that Goku has to work up to it.
- 150G is actively impeding.
- 300G is explicitly 18 tons and leaves Vegeta gasping.
- 8 tons takes effort.
- 40 tons is too much for Base Goku.
- The Z-Sword is a direct heavy-object challenge with outright failures.
- 1,000 tons stops Vegeta.
- Kale later becomes a cap-breaker by lifting Magetta with effort.
It's repeated load logic, repeated ceiling logic, and repeated cap-breaking logic.
The only reason these aren't permanent ceilings is because the ceiling moves upward over time.
Which is the whole point of a progression chain.
A ceiling at one stage can be broken later and then replaced by a higher ceiling for characters at, or past, that level. That doesn't make the earlier ceiling non-existent. It makes it part of the progression.
- Goku's Kaio burden is a ceiling until he adapts.
- Goku's 100G issue is a ceiling until he adapts.
- Base Goku's 40 tons is a ceiling until he uses Super Saiyan.
- Magetta's 1,000 tons is a ceiling until someone like Kale breaks past it.
- Later UI/UE tier characters may not currently have a new direct ceiling because they're above the last shown cap-breakers.
That's how ceilings work in an escalating series.
Not "every weight scene is an eternal hard cap forever".
The point is that Dragon Ball repeatedly gives direct weight/load/gravity ceilings, shows characters hitting them, shows characters training past them, then gives new ceilings later.
So the high side can't reduce all of this to "a repeated theme of heaviness".
It is a repeated theme of heaviness.
And also:
- It's a load scale.
- It's soft thresholds supporting hard caps.
- It's hard caps being broken and replaced by higher hard caps.
The AP/PL gap point doesn't change this either.
This isn't even subtle, ya'll trying to make it sound absurd that Namek or later characters with far higher PL/AP can still have loads mattering in the ton range.
Yes. That's the point.
Dragon Ball LS is weirdly low compared to AP if you judge it by direct load scenes. That's what the OP is arguing. You don't get to refute that by going:
"but their AP/PL is way higher".
That only works if LS is already assumed to track AP/PL closely.
And that's the exact assumption being challenged.
If AP automatically solved LS, this thread wouldn't exist.
As for plot importance, the boulder and shell jump don't beat the gravity/weight chain there either.
You say the boulder and jump scenes are plot-important?
Sure. They can matter.
But plot importance doesn't make the highest calc interpretation sacred.
The boulder can matter to training. The shell-removal jump can matter to progress. That's fine.
But that doesn't mean the highest calc interpretation of those scenes becomes the intended LS value that overrides every later direct load scene.
If we're talking actual plot importance, compared to a subline that lasts a few chapters toward the start of the manga that you need to extrapolate values from, the gravity/weight chain wins badly.
- King Kai's 10G matters because it's how Goku trains for the Saiyans and is key for a whole saga.
- Goku's Namek gravity training matters because it's how he prepares for Freeza.
- Yamcha and the others later reacting to King Kai's gravity is a callback that importance.
- Vegeta later escalates the same concept with 300G to surpass Goku and is part of how he obtained Super Saiyan.
- Buu Saga weights matter because the scene directly contrasts Base and Super Saiyan handling the same load.
- Z-Sword is a plot-relevant heavy-object training challenge.
- Magetta's weight is a direct tournament combat mechanic.
- Kale later handling Magetta is a later cap-breaker/callback.
- Weighted clothing is used as a combat reveal multiple times.
"the boulder mattered to training motivation",
while ignoring that the gravity/weight chain is tied to training, growth, transformations, combat limitations, and arc progression across far more of the series.
The boulder and jump scenes can show progress. They aren't more narratively important than the entire gravity/weight progression, and they aren't more direct than stated-and-shown load scenes.
Magetta being brief doesn't change that either.
A failed lift doesn't need to last ten chapters to matter. By this logic the plot-relevance of the jumps don't matter either, while what's in the OP is incomparably more important due to how much it extends throughout.
If Vegeta is physically incapable of moving a 1,000-ton opponent, that's a direct LS showing.
And Magetta isn't just a one-off weight gag that vanishes forever. The manga brings his weight up again later with Kale, where handling him is treated as notable and he was intended to impede her.
That's exactly the kind of later direct weight callback the OP is talking about.
Magetta's weight is a direct combat mechanic in one fight, then later becomes a reference point for a stronger character exceeding that burden.
That's progression.
And the "did this even come from Toriyama" angle is selective as hell.
NOW Toriyama intent matters?
The entire high-side argument leans on fan calcs from action panels Toriyama almost certainly didn't calculate. But the second the DBS manga gives a direct low LS cap, suddenly we need to prove Toriyama personally typed the line?
No.
If the DBS manga continuity is being used, the manga statement matters.
If Toyotaro material is invalid unless Toriyama personally wrote every word, then start cutting way more than Magetta. Cut the cosmology stuff. Cut Beerus and Champa statements. Cut anything else from the DBS manga unless someone proves Toriyama personally wrote every word.
Nobody wants that standard.
They only want it when the statement is inconvenient.
And if Toyotaro wrote it, that honestly makes the high-end side look worse, not better, because Toriyama's successor is still continuing the same general direct weight logic:
- direct weight values,
- characters reacting to those weights,
- and the manga treating massive stated loads as physically relevant.
Not quite my dude, Giant Piccolo doesn't just get to delete the entire weighted-clothing chain.
Giant Piccolo, in the best of cases, creates one competing data point.
That isn't the same thing as proving the clothing logic is fake.
This is the first problem with the argument:
Why is Giant Piccolo being treated as the proof, while the weighted clothing is treated as the thing that needs to be explained away?
Both scenes exist. Is that not one of your own arguments?
Goku's weighted clothes exist.
Piccolo's giant form exists.
Neither scene gets automatic priority just because one gives the higher-looking result.
So we have to look at emphasis, repetition, mechanics, and what the manga does before and after.
And when you do that, the weighted-load side has way more support.
The 23rd Budokai weighted clothing reveal is not some random background detail. It is played as an actual reveal.
- Krillin and Tenshinhan react to the clothing, identify it as heavy, and indicate they couldn't replicate it if in the same situation, and the whole point is that Goku and Piccolo were fighting while burdened by it.
- Removing it improves their performance.
- Against Raditz, Goku and Piccolo remove their weighted clothes again, and their performance jumps by a clear amount, roughly 30-40%.
So Giant Piccolo did not supersede, debunk, or retcon the weighted-clothing logic.
The manga went right back to treating weighted clothing as a meaningful physical burden.
Then Kaio's planet repeats it again.
- Goku's weighted clothing under 10G becomes drastic enough that he struggles with even basic movement.
- He has trouble doing even a light jog, and taking the clothes off is game-changing by his own admission.
- 20-40kg for 200kg Giran.
- 115kg for 1.7 ton Goku.
Goku's bodyweight plus his clothing under 10G is a little under two tons of effective burden, and that is treated as a serious active-effort threshold for him at that stage.
So the actual sequence is not:
- "115 kg clothes mattered once, then Giant Piccolo proved body mass does not matter".
- weighted clothes matter,
- Giant Piccolo happens,
- weighted clothes matter again,
- weighted clothes under 10G matter even more,
- gravity burden keeps scaling upward afterward.
And Giant Piccolo is also not the same mechanic.
Weighted clothing is external load added onto an existing body.
Giant Piccolo is a transformed body.
Those are not identical.
The scene logic isn't:
- "Piccolo straps a giant dead-weight body onto his normal body and now his old body has to carry it like equipment".
- "Piccolo becomes giant".
That is not how these scenes are usually written.
So "mass is mass" is not enough.
- A transformed body is not the same as worn weight.
- A body-size technique is not the same as a training shell.
- A giant form is not the same as weighted clothing.
- And even worse, Piccolo's BP/Ki isn't increased at all, despite the fact.
Giant Piccolo when Goku flips him is only about 10x bigger in height.
What if, Toriyama thought about it like most people would at a glance:
- "Piccolo is 10x bigger, so he is 10x heavier"
And that would line up extremely well with the low chain.
Goku around that same broad range later treats a bit over a ton of effective burden under Kaio's 10G as a serious active-effort threshold:
- 62 kg bodyweight + 115 kg clothing = 177 kg.
- 177 kg under 10G = 1.77 tons effective burden.
It fits. Suspiciously so. In fact it'd be another bridge.
And no, I'm not saying we can prove with 100% certainty that Toriyama did that unlike some of the assertations of Toriyama's intent of choice in the above post.
But it's very plausible.
Most people don't naturally think:
- "height x10 means mass x1000."
- "he is 10x bigger."
So this goes directly against the high-ends.
You can't argue:
- "Toriyama was not thinking scientifically about the stated load scenes"
If Toriyama is loose with physics, Giant Piccolo isn't safe for your side.
It's actually one of the least safe examples possible, because the argument depends on assuming he understood and intended the full cubic consequence of making Piccolo taller, while simultaneously arguing he was loose or ignorant with weight implications elsewhere.
You can't have that both ways.
If he did intend strict cubic mass, then Giant Piccolo creates tension with the weighted clothing scenes.
Mayhaps.
But that is one mechanically different giant-form scene competing against repeated weighted-load scenes before and after it.
If he did not intend strict cubic mass, and instead used the very common "10x bigger = 10x heavier" intuition, then Giant Piccolo may not contradict the chain at all. It may land directly in the same zone, a bit less even, as weighted clothing under 10G.
Again, I'm not saying that is proven.
I'm saying it is a very real possibility, and it is suspicious as hell that the simple intuitive reading lands in the same general area as the repeated weighted-load chain.
But yet all the same, that shouldn't matter much right? The argument for the high-pile is based entirely on assumptions of what the author may or may not have intended, while ignoring what he actively pushed, calling this an unreasonable inference would be hypocritical.
So best case for you:
- Giant Piccolo is one mechanically different giant-form scene creating tension with the load chain.
- Giant Piccolo isn't tension at all, because Toriyama may have been using the exact simple size logic that makes it fit the chain.
The weighted clothing scene has emphasis.
- The Raditz scene repeats it after Giant Piccolo.
- Kaio's planet directly quantifies how meaningful that same clothing becomes under 10G and thus relative to normal.
- Gravity training keeps building on that load logic.
- Later direct caps keep doing the same thing with larger numbers.
And if we are applying your own "Toriyama was not doing strict physics" argument consistently, then Giant Piccolo is just as vulnerable to that uncertainty as anything else, if not more.
- Second issue:
The physics point needs to be applied consistently. The issue is that the argument cherry-picks one part of the physics while ignoring the rest. Even in the case we take this at face value directly, it's being massively inflated.
You say Giant Piccolo's mass is still attached to his body, his muscles still have to move it, and his joints still bear the load.
But that argument only works by cherry-picking one piece of physics and ignoring the rest.
If you want to take Giant Piccolo at strict direct physics value, then you don't only get:
- "Piccolo is much heavier"
- "Piccolo's muscles are physically larger"
So if Piccolo is about 10x taller, his mass would scale by around 1000x, but his muscle cross-sectional area would scale by around 100x.
That means even under strict square-cube physics, he still becomes physically stronger as a body-mechanic consequence of becoming giant.
Not ki stronger.
Not power level stronger.
Physically stronger in the narrow body-size sense.
That matters because the one thing we KNOW is denied is that his ki/power rises much.
As in, the single thing that would enable scaling is the sole thing that doesn't change. That is the thing that would make it scale normally to everyone else.
If his ki does not rise, then Giant Piccolo is not evidence that his normal body's LS jumped to some giant-form value.
It's evidence that the giant form has its own body mechanics.
And that's the actual distinction being made here:
- The form may give him larger muscles and larger limbs as part of the transformation while not increasing his ki much.
That's a transformed body.
And the "not much stronger" line doesn't help either anyway.
"Not much stronger" is not the same as "not physically stronger at all".
It mainly rejects a major power/ki amp. It doesn't mean the transformed body's local biomechanics are identical to his normal body's biomechanics. Let's ignore how by that point any increase in biomechanics to Orange Piccolo would be utterly useless relative to his ki-based LS as he's far past any caps.
In fact, if we are applying strict physics, they can't be identical.
- His mass changes.
- His limb size changes.
- His muscle size changes.
- His leverage changes.
- His ground pressure changes.
- His inertia changes.
- His balance changes.
- His stride changes.
Huge problem.
You want to say:
- "His body is heavier, therefore the 115 kg clothes are fake".
Now it's no longer a direct comparison to weighted clothing.
It's a giant-form biomechanics scene.
And the speed point makes this even worse for you.
If Piccolo is genuinely hundreds or thousands of times heavier in the strict cubic sense, but Roshi says his speed is unchanged, then the scene is already not using normal load physics.
A vastly heavier arm shouldn't just throw the same punch in the same time under the same normal-body output.
If his giant fist and arm have vastly more inertia, yet he can still move them at the same combat speed, then either:
- the giant form gives him proportional body-mechanic output to move the larger body,
- the manga is not treating the giant body's mass with strict real physics,
- or both.
Because the scene itself is already telling us the transformation does not behave like an external dead load.
If the giant form can preserve speed despite the mass increase, then the form has some built-in body-mechanic compensation.
Otherwise normal Piccolo would inversely be much faster than his giant-self.
That isn't the same thing as Piccolo wearing weights.
Weighted clothing adds burden to an existing body and directly impairs performance.
Giant form changes the body and preserves performance.
Those are fundamentally different mechanics.
The ONLY way this wouldn't be the case, for both the squaring or speed-ratio mechanics is if Piccolo's new body had imaginary mass or volume, was magic, or not intended to be this analyzed.
And this is before getting into the author-intent problem once again.
You're also assuming Toriyama intended full cubic mass scaling for Giant Piccolo.
But that isn't guaranteed at all.
Most people don't naturally think:
- "height x10 means mass x1000."
- "he is 10x bigger."
Using the rough 117 kg bodyweight people discuss, that would put Giant Piccolo around 1.17 tons.
And that lines up suspiciously well with the surrounding low-chain evidence.
If strict physics applies, then apply it all the way:
- Giant Piccolo's muscles get larger too.
- His movement mechanics change.
- His preserved speed implies compensating output or non-realistic transformation mechanics.
- The Z-Sword's ground impact can constrain its weight.
- Momentum does not equal static lifting.
- TK is not muscle output.
- Lung force is not hand lifting.
- If fictional mechanics apply, then Giant Piccolo is a body-size technique and not equivalent to external worn load.
So no, "his muscles and joints still bear it" doesn't refute the body-mechanics distinction.
It proves the opposite.
The moment you invoke his muscles and joints, you have admitted this is a transformed-body biomechanics issue, not a simple external-load issue.
And once it is transformed-body biomechanics, Giant Piccolo is not the same type of evidence as weighted clothing, gravity burden, Z-Sword handling, or Magetta's 1,000 ton failed movement.
- Third issue:
Then:
Then:
And finally:
I really shouldn't be forced to argue stuff like this, ya'll gotta actually research this stuff first before arguing it.
That isn't circular, it's you not even sticking to the very physics you're trying to defend.
Circular would be:
- "Giant Piccolo does not count because it hurts my argument"
Which isn't the reason, there's about a dozen reasons, the absurdity here is that you're being circular and arguing exactly that.
The actual reason is that the mechanics are different before we even get to the result, lest consistency, contradictions, and more.
External weighted clothing:
- an added load is placed onto an otherwise normal body, and the story shows that load impairing performance.
- the character's body itself changes size as part of a technique, and the story treats that transformed body as able to move at that size.
Calling both "body-attached weight" is a sleight of wording, it isn't "attached", it is the new weight.
Weighted clothing is body-attached external load.
Giant Piccolo is not wearing his giant body as equipment. His body has changed.
Those aren't equivalent just because both involve mass connected to him.
A backpack, weighted clothes, gravity burden, and an external object are not the same thing as a transformed body whose limbs, muscles, leverage, stride, and movement mechanics all change with the form.
That distinction isn't post-hoc.
It's the first thing you would ask about any feat:
what is the character actually doing?
- Are they carrying an added load?
- Are they resisting gravity?
- Are they pulling an object?
- Are they moving an external mass?
- Are they transforming their own body?
And this criterion doesn't only exist to aid the chain.
It applies consistently.
If a character wears weighted clothes, that is external worn load.
If a character trains under 10G, 100G, or 300G, that is gravity/body-burden load.
If a character pulls the Z-Sword, that is heavy-object handling.
If Vegeta tries to move Magetta, that is failed movement against a stated external mass.
If Piccolo becomes giant, that is a giant-form transformation.
Those are once again different evidence types.
The problem is that ya'll want Giant Piccolo to be treated like external load only when that helps attack the weighted clothing, but you don't want to deal with the rest of what a giant transformed body implies.
If his muscles and joints matter, then his larger muscles, larger limbs, altered leverage, stride length, inertia, balance, and preserved speed matter too.
You cannot isolate only:
- "he is heavier"
- "his entire body mechanics changed"
It is not an exception to the chain.
It's refusing to pretend a transformed body is the same evidence as a weight strapped onto an unchanged body.
Also, the premise you're attacking isn't not even mine.
You're turning the argument into:
- "the clothing evidence is valid because the clothing evidence is valid"
The clothing evidence is valid because the manga emphasizes it, then emphasizes it again later, then builds on the same load logic through gravity training, then escalates it through higher burdens and direct caps.
The 23rd Budokai clothes are not a throwaway panel. They are a reveal.
The Raditz fight repeats the same mechanic after Giant Piccolo.
Kaio's planet repeats it again and makes the same clothing drastically relevant under 10G.
Gravity training keeps building from there.
100G becomes a major step.
300G is explicitly converted into 18 tons.
So on and so forth with all the in-between steps as well.
Also the weighted clothing is brought up like 20+ times alone, including later into Super.
The clothing isn't being treated as valid by circular reasoning.
It's being treated as valid because it's part of a repeated, emphasized, escalating load framework that the manga keeps returning to.
Giant Piccolo is the one isolated giant-form tension point being used to attack that entire framework.
I'm not arguing:
- "all body-attached mass must impair performance proportionally"
The actual argument is much simpler:
when the manga repeatedly shows added loads, gravity burdens, heavy objects, and stated masses affecting characters, those loads are evidence of the relevant LS range.
That doesn't require a universal rule where every increase in body mass causes perfectly proportional impairment.
So Giant Piccolo doesn't refute the premise.
Giant Piccolo shows that Dragon Ball giant transformations have their own loose body mechanics.
That does not erase weighted clothing.
That does not erase Raditz weighted clothing.
That does not erase Kaio's 10G burden.
That does not erase 300G = 18 tons.
That does not erase Buu Saga weights.
That does not erase the Z-Sword.
That does not erase Magetta.
So no, the distinction is not "circular".
It's categorization.
And the high side needs categorization because otherwise it can just shove anything regardless of cohesion or legitimacy into a pile and act as if matters more.
- Lastly:
Where?
That?
The line being used here is Roshi saying:
That isn't Roshi saying Piccolo is straining to maintain the form. Which if he did, would be a MAJOR ANTI-FEAT per the high pile given you'd be arguing under your own logic that baseline Class K is exertion, which would just make anything above the OP's chain even more bafflingly incoherent and inconsistent.
Anyway, Roshi is saying the giant form kept the same speed.
And that line actually makes your argument worse.
Because if you want Giant Piccolo read through strict real physics, you don't only get:
- "his mass is much larger"
If his body grows proportionally, his muscles grow too.
Muscle force is tied to cross-sectional area. So if Piccolo is scaled up, his absolute muscular force increases as a body-size consequence.
Not ki.
Not power level.
Just bigger muscles producing more raw force.
With rough square-cube logic, if height scales by 10x:
- muscle cross-sectional area scales by about 100x,
- mass scales by about 1000x,
- muscle torque also changes because muscle force and limb/joint lengths changed,
- and limb rotational inertia rises even harder because mass is farther from the joint.
- "he is heavier"
- his muscles are stronger,
- his leverage changes,
- his joint torque changes,
- his limb inertia changes,
- and moving his arm at the same speed becomes a completely different mechanical problem.
If Giant Piccolo is much heavier but "just as fast as before", then the giant form is not being treated like normal Piccolo carrying dead weight if physics do get applied.
A normal Piccolo body with the same exact output should not be able to swing a vastly heavier, vastly longer arm at the same speed.
And if normal Piccolo somehow DID have enough output to swing that giant arm at the same speed, then that creates the opposite problem:
- why would his normal arm not be far faster when it has massively less inertia?
If the same output can move the giant arm at normal speed, then applying that output to the normal arm should make the normal arm much faster, because the normal arm is drastically lighter to accelerate.
But the scene says the giant form is just as fast as before, not vastly slower, and not implying normal Piccolo was secretly wasting enough output to move a giant body all along.
So if you actually apply physics:
- "normal Piccolo's ordinary LS equals the full giant-body physics"
- the giant form has its own body-size mechanics, or the scene is not using strict body-mass physics to begin with.
Weighted clothing adds external burden to the same body and makes performance worse.
Giant form changes the body itself and preserves speed.
Those are opposite mechanics.
And this also snips the "but his power does not rise much" dodge.
"Not much stronger" is not "his body mechanics do not change at all".
The important thing is that his ki/power doesn't get a major amp. That's what would let the feat scale to other characters.
But a giant transformation can still change local body mechanics: bigger muscles, bigger limbs, altered leverage, altered stride, altered inertia, altered movement.
So if anything, once again, the fact that his speed stays the same is evidence that the form has compensation built into it, not evidence that normal Piccolo can treat a giant body like weighted clothing.
Which ignoring all the other problems it has, is but one reason why this can't debunk the load chain.
You're trying to use strict physics only for the one part that helps you:
- "giant body mass dwarfs 115 kg"
If fiction mechanics apply, then Giant Piccolo is a giant-form technique and not equivalent to external weighted clothing.
Either way, Roshi's actual line doesn't help, it reveals a major problem with using it the way ya'll are.
Oh and just fyi, factoring in the squared muscle stuff proportional to heighted mass gets 10x Piccolo's proportional body burden as less than Goku on King Kai's.
Like barely even 1 ton.
That only works if LS is assumed to closely follow PL/AP.
That's one of the assumptions being contested.
Piccolo removing his weighted clothing on Namek does not show some enormous, fight-deciding amp. It shows the weights are still a performance factor.
That's it.
They matter, but they're much less decisive than before.
Piccolo removes the clothing because he thinks it will help against 2nd Form Freeza. Then 3rd Form Freeza appears and mauls him anyway. And no, "Freeza transformed in response", ain't real. Freeza can't sense PL, so he can't know the exact size of the clothing-removal boost and go "3rd form or bust", off that.
So whatever the clothing removal did, it clearly wasn't enough to mitigate a transformation gap. It was minor-to-moderate performance improvement.
That fits the chain perfectly.
The weights were a major reveal in the 23rd Budokai and were drastic. They still mattered against Raditz and gave a hefty amp. Under 10G, that same kind of burden became crippling at first. By Namek Piccolo, they're still worth removing for an edge, but not enough to bridge a real gap.
That is progression.
The burden becomes less important over time, but it doesn't instantly become meaningless just because PL climbed.
The only escape is:
- "Toriyama just reused the weighted-clothing mechanic".
That isn't a rebuttal.
That's recurrence.
You don't get to say the manga keeps bringing back weighted loads, then act like the repeated return of weighted loads is not evidence of how the manga treats physical burden.
- Weighted clothing matters.
- Gravity burden matters.
- Training weights matter.
- Heavy objects matter.
- Stated mass failures matter.
And this applies to the broader AP/PL complaint too.
If ya'll want direct PL-to-LS multiplier logic, make that CRT, because it falls apart instantly.
Start from an early high feat, like a boulder or Tao-style value, and multiply it forward by PL growth. Cell/Buu/Super characters should be lifting planets, stars, or worse depending on the chain. Nobody argues that.
Not even the high side.
It breaks backward too.
Take a later LS cap or high feat, divide it backward by PL, and you can make earlier characters normal-human or below-human in ways nobody here would accept.
So no, "Piccolo's PL went up hundreds of times, therefore 100-ish kg should be meaningless", isn't an argument.
It's worming in a scaling rule nobody actually uses.
The manga shows LS increasing at its own pace.
Still increasing, yes.
But nowhere near 1:1 with PL/AP.
That's not my problem. That's what the source keeps doing.
- Goku is badly compromised by the Kaio burden at first.
- He adapts.
- Later 100G becomes a new step.
- Vegeta later struggles under 300G, explicitly converted.
- Buu Saga Goku can use 8 tons, but 40 tons is too much for base.
- The Z-Sword becomes a heavy-object challenge above that range.
- Magetta's 1,000 tons later stops Vegeta.
- Kale later breaks past that with effort.
If that feels slow compared to PL/AP, unfortunate.
The DBS/AP version of this same argument fails for the same reason.
A 1,000-ton Magetta issue is only "absurd", if you assume AP should automatically scale into LS.
But if AP did that, then every high feat with visible strain becomes impossible too.
Take any strained high LS feat and apply AP/PL growth honestly. The next few arcs should eclipse it by absurd amounts.
- Then why is anyone struggling with a building?
- Why is anyone struggling with the Z-Sword?
- Why does Magetta's 1,000 tons matter?
- Why is Kale moving Magetta still treated as notable?
- Why is the high side stopping at Class M/G instead of multiplying into astronomical lifting values?
The high side only invokes it when it makes the direct caps look weird.
That's selective.
And "combat force", doesn't automatically fix this either.
If someone wants to say every punch, beam catch, impact, block, and physical clash proves LS must match AP, then they're not arguing from direct LS anymore. They're arguing AP-to-LS scaling through combat force implications.
That needs its own proof.
You can't assume it, then say the direct load scenes are wrong because they don't follow the assumption.
That's circular.
The manga directly gives weight/load/gravity evidence.
If those direct scenes say LS lags far behind AP, then the answer is not:
- "but AP is higher".
- "it is what it is".
So this objection fails twice.
For Namek Piccolo, the clothing removal is a minor-to-moderate callback that reinforces the recurring load mechanic, removed it, then got mauled by like 2x buff over a form he likely already had an edge over.
For the AP/PL gap, the complaint only works by assuming the exact AP-to-LS relationship the thread is rejecting.
If the high side wants PL/AP to dictate LS, prove that first.
Otherwise, the direct load scenes stand on their own.
Dragon Ball's LS being weirdly low compared to AP is not a refutation, it half the point.
This is just eyeballing when it helps the high side.
If the claim is "we don't need calcs, just look at it", then that goes both ways. Not that it'd "break" the chain, the whole argument is that the chain overrides but regardless...
Just look at the Z-Sword drop.
If it were millions or billions of tons, the ground effect would be far beyond what is shown, no?
Just look at the fact that Tao's pillar, by calc, dwarfs Giant Piccolo by thousands of times despite the later scene and character hierarchy.
Just look at much later characters struggling with weights that would not even register if some of the Class M-G stuff were the intended scale.
Just look at the manga explicitly saying 60 kg at 300G is 18 tons.
At that point, "two functioning neurons and real-world reference" doesn't help the high side as much as you'd thinks.
Not that it matters, this is wrong. Factually so.
You really can't judge that people will think like that, literally, you know how many authors have gone on record saying they don't think that through?
You know how many people DON'T know how big stuff like that would weigh?
This vastly overestimates how accurately normal people intuit object weight from size alone. Or even just some of the wiki itself.
Even on you very forum, awhile back, a regular grossly undershot the value of a boulder, thinking even they could lift it, despite that in actual fact it would have weighed 5-10 tons.
For a lot of people, they often infer based solely on size not density and other factors. Some can see a human sized rock and think "damn I could lift that", even though no you literally can't.
Eyeballing a boulder and going "that must be way higher" isn't a substitute for proving a coherent LS scale.
And if we are allowed to eyeball, then the Z-Sword, Magetta, Buu Saga weights, 300G conversion, and later effort scenes all become even more damning for the high pile.
You can't use casual visual common sense only when it inflates the value.
This doesn't help the high side in anyway man, it hurts it.
The point being made is basically:
Then the issue is with using early visual calcs as stable high-end proof?
Because if we go by "feat calcs only" in that same minute stretch alone, the high examples are already fighting each other before the manga even starts setting up the low chain as its main strength framework.
You can't use the seemingly casual boulder as a nice high anchor when right next to it have Goku putting huge effort into something far lower.
If Goku is visibly struggling with hundreds of kilos tiny car, then a nearby few-ton boulder value is already in tension with it.
And if someone tries to push even higher interpretations from boulder movement, tree/stump stuff, crushing, shearing, or other material math in that same loose early span, it gets so much worse, not better.
Now you have:
- car struggle much lower,
- mid-effort boulder calc higher,
- other object-damage / stump / material calcs potentially way higher yet all sitting at widely different amounts of effort that leads to blatant contradictions among themelves,
- and all of it sitting in the same early comedy-action period.
That's proof the high-calc method is unstable and unreliable immediately.
The lower side isn't saying Chapter 1 is a perfect decimal-locked LS table.
The lower side is saying the manga later builds a repeated load framework.
- 20 kg shells matter.
- 40 kg shells are the next step.
- Weighted clothing matters.
- Gravity burden matters.
- 10G matters.
- 100G matters.
- 300G is explained as 18 tons.
- Buu weights matter.
- Z-Sword matters.
- 1,000 tons matters.
Early DB being loose before that doesn't impede the later chain.
All it does is establish that Toriyama is already suspect with keeping visual inferred feats as coherent with each other and likely wasn't intending some of the exact values if he's having Goku turn red deadlifting something he does casually several times over in the same chapter based solely on normal human intuition.
It just means you should be careful with calcs.
And that's exactly the opposite of what the high side wants.
Because the high side is the one trying to take those loose early visuals and turn them into hard scale anchors or into a "quantity" wins situations.
The car/boulder issue shows why that is unsafe.
If Toriyama has Goku overexerting himself with the car, then a few pages/chapters later draws a boulder that fans can calc much higher (not stated btw), the obvious question is:
- did Toriyama actually intend the full calc implication of that boulder?
That question gets even stronger if the same scene or section gives other calcs that are wildly inconsistent among them.
You can't say:
- "Toriyama was loose with the low car struggle, ignore that"
- "but the higher boulder / tree / crush values from the same loose period are stable"
If it isn't stated and we know they can be incoherent, contradictory, or unintentional, that same scrutiny needs to apply to the rest.
And the fact the lower car-type showing sits closer to the later load chain isn't nothing with extreme effort.
It means the high side is picking the inflated parts of a messy early section while ignoring the nearby effort and failure evidence that points much lower.
This also lines up with other early checks.
Yamcha failing to budge a sub-Class 50 kind of object is a huge problem for the idea that early characters are secretly sitting in insane higher ranges, like the Class M calcs he'd be scaling to by that point like the boulder crush.
And it's not like you can just say "well maybe that one crush calc wasn't intended and they're lower, oh but not TO much lower", because at that point, how do we know other high calcs like that are ALSO not simply wrong contextually?
You'd make multiple of the alleged high-pile invalid right off that alone.
If he were already comfortably in those high ranges, he'd have zero issue.
Yet he can't, hell if he was even in the LOWER "high" ranges, he'd still be capable of shifting it off.
But he can't budge it.
That kind of thing supports the lower reading far more than the high pile if he can't even do a Class 5 feat shimmy.
So no, "car vs boulder" doesn't prove the lower chain is incoherent. It's not even part of the manga's pushed progression.
But it does prove Dragon Ball has loose visual action feats, and that the high side has no right to cherry-pick only the inflated calcs from that looseness.
The lower chain is built from the repeated weight/load/gravity framework that keeps coming back afterward.
The high pile is the side trying to pull hard ratings out of early visual slop while dodging the nearby lower effort scenes.
This "anyone with real-world reference can see it" argument is not a standard.
It is quite literally WHY we have calcs in the first place.
If everyone could just eyeball weight correctly, this thread wouldn't exist. There would be no density arguments, no car-model checks, no friction checks, no tree-scaling disputes, no material debates, no sword-weight recalcs, no "does this count as LS?" arguments.
Every rating on wiki would be agreed upon because everyone would just know based on real reference.
People are bad at this.
This thread already proves that.
People treated Bulma's car like it was over a ton, some even said a few tons even, but the actual real model is below that.
People treated the Z-Sword like it could be thousands of tons based on vibe, then when the ground interaction is checked directly, it lands vastly lower.
People treat pushing like deadlifting, even though pushing depends on friction, surface, contact, and whether the object rolls, slides, digs in, or is being shifted from rest.
People treat object damage like automatic LS, even though crushing, shearing, cracking, and material failure depend heavily on contact area, material choice, failure mode, and how the force is applied.
People use tree/stump/background scaling as if Toriyama was carefully drawing every environmental object to preserve real mass implications.
So no, "real-world reference" doesn't settle this.
It is literally the thing that keeps producing suspect assumptions.
Now apply that to the specific early feats.
The car struggle is low and direct effort.
The (Roshi) boulder push is higher, but it is a push across ground, not a deadlift. That alone makes it less clear as a conventional LS anchor because now there's some roundabout physics to it.
The Turtle carry is a carry context, not a combat-speed burden. Being able to carry Turtle does not mean a smaller worn load cannot hinder climbing, swimming, sprinting, fighting, or training over time.
And that's assuming Turtle even weighs much, he doesn't have a stated weight, and Toriyama is already bad with body weights in particular (62 kg Goku? He should be at least 130 kg).
Not a joke by the way:
That volume would make him 173-178 kg, obviously inflated due to hair and stuff inflating the volume some, by like, 20%. So, ya know, 150kg, for what is canonically 62kg.
Remember what I said about authors just not understanding how much objects should weigh sometimes, especially character weights given Japanese authors, especially at the time (this was the 80s), often used their own as a basis (kind of like your argument no?), it's dubious Toriyama knew exactly how much Turtle would weigh
And then the tree/stump/crush/shear-style stuff is even worse, because now the number only exists after stacking assumptions about material, size, failure method, and what exact kind of strength the scene is supposed to represent.
So what exactly is the high side proving here?
That early Dragon Ball has multiple physical-looking scenes that don't agree with each other?
Cool. That hurts the high side.
Now the high side is the one trying to use those early visual implications as stable high anchors.
You can't just go:
- "the low car struggle is early casual physics, so ignore it"
- "the higher boulder/tree/crush values from the same loose early period are reliable enough to override the later load chain"
If early DB is loose, it's loose both ways.
The boulder isn't magically more author-intended than the car just because it calcs higher.
The stump/crush/shear values aren't magically safer than the car just because they're higher.
And if anything, the lower effort scenes are the ones that fit better with the later weight/load logic, while the high interpretations are the ones that immediately start clashing with other nearby scenes.
Huge problem.
In just the early stretch, the high side wants to pull from:
- car struggle,
- boulder push,
- Turtle carry,
- tree/stump stuff,
- crushing/shearing implications,
You're not weighing evidence, this is filtering.
The car example especially doesn't help.
If Goku strains hard with the car, then a nearby higher boulder value already creates tension.
But if the high side starts stacking tree/stump/crush/shear interpretations that jump way above both, then the early high pile is not becoming stronger. It's becoming more obviously unstable.
Same with pushing.
The whole "real-world reference" argument is especially suspect for pushing feats in particular.
People can usually understand the basic idea that pushing something can be much LESS difficult than lifting it.
They've moved a couch, a fridge, a cart, a car in neutral, whatever. They know from experience that "I can make this object move, sometimes without much issue" and "I can't pick up its full weight".
But they usually do not know the actual ratio.
They don't look at a boulder push and naturally know:
- "this should be 0.6x the full weight",
- "this should be 0.3x",
- "this depends on static friction, kinetic friction, rolling/sliding behavior, the contact patch, dirt resistance, leverage, and whether the object has already started moving".
A person can know pushing is easy compared to lifting without knowing how much so.
The Mountain moving a plane is the obvious real-life example.
People can see him move a plane and still understand he obviously can't deadlift the plane.
They know the feat is nowhere near full plane-weight lifting, yet may not know that's because the plane is on wheels and the setup is about overcoming rolling resistance, not picking up the mass.
But most people still could not tell you the exact force ratio without doing the math.
All they'd know is "pushing is far, FAR, below it's full weight here". In this case, it'd be dozens upon dozens of time for a multitude of reasons. Normal people just going to see that and conclude "it's impressive, but unfathomably lower then it's full mass".
So why would pushing a boulder be such an obvious inference? Most people just know it's far lower, not 0.5x lower or whatnot.
Real-world intuition can tell you "pushing is easy relative to lifting".
But many couldn't reliably tell you the LS value of the push, and how or why it's 0.6, 0.3, or even 0.0001.
So saying "anyone can see the boulder is heavy" doesn't prove what you want.
Anyone can see the boulder is big perhaps.
Anyone can understand that pushing it implies strength.
But that doesn't tell us whether the feat should be treated as full-weight lifting, partial resistance, sliding friction, rolling, digging through dirt, or some mixed action-panel thing, or worse, that they'd infer it's as high as it realistically could be.
And that matters even more because the high value ya'll want isn't coming from the manga saying "this boulder weighs THIS much".
It's coming from fan interpretation of a push scene.
What if the weight itself is overblown unintentionally?
All while the pushing mechanics were meant to convey it's lower than the calc? We don't know, how could we?
All we know for a fact is what Toriyama tells us, and what he's said contradicts this.
So the boulder push isn't a clean contradiction to the shell/weight range just because it calcs higher.
It's exactly the kind of feat where "real-world reference" is least reliable: everyone gets the broad idea, but most people don't know the actual mechanics well enough to turn it into a confident LS cap.
What matters is the actual interaction:
- How much does it weigh to begin with?
- Is he deadlifting it?
- Dragging it?
- Rolling it?
- Pushing it across dirt?
- Breaking static friction?
- Keeping it moving after it starts?
- Crushing it?
- Shearing it?
- Moving it with momentum?
And this is exactly why direct load scenes are useful.
When the manga says a load is [this] and shows whether the character can use it, struggle with it, fail with it, or train past it, we don't have to guess or extrapolate the object mass.
- The value is given.
- The burden is shown.
- The context is load.
Also, Turtle next, still not the contradiction ya'll want.
Carrying Turtle doesn't mean the shell weights are fake.
Nobody ever argued the shell weight was Goku's max lift?
That's the same strawman for the umpteenth time.
A larger carry load in a simple context and a smaller worn load during harsh training are completely different.
Goku can carry Turtle around.
That doesn't mean 20 kg or 40 kg strapped to his body during climbing, swimming, running, sprinting, and training all day is meaningless.
For example:
- A person might be able to lift or carry 100 kg with effort.
- That does not mean 50 kg is fine in a fight.
- That does not mean 10 kg strapped awkwardly to their body would not ruin a flip, slow a sprint, mess with climbing, or make endurance training way harder.
Dragon Ball's own scale makes this obvious later.
Goku can fight with about 115 kg of weighted clothing at the 23rd Budokai.
He is not visually collapsing under it.
He can still fight extremely well.
But taking it off still gives a clear performance boost.
Then on Kaio's planet, that same general body/clothing burden multiplied by 10G becomes crippling at first.
That tells us the relationship and ratio.
- A load can be usable and still meaningful.
- A smaller worn load can impede performance without being a max lift.
- A larger multiplied load can become a serious threshold.
So Turtle carry doesn't refute the shells.
It just proves Goku can carry more than his training shell, which nobody denied.
The shell was a long-term training burden, not a hard cap. But a burden is still a burden.
The same applies to the car and boulder issue.
If Goku is turning red and straining with a far lower object, then a nearby higher boulder value is immediately odd.
But if you start stacking tree/stump/crush/shear interpretations from the same early period, then the high side is more unstable.
You end up with:
- car struggle much lower,
- boulder push higher,
- tree/stump/crush/shear values potentially way higher,
- Turtle carry being a different kind of action,
- and Yamcha later failing to even budge a sub-Class 50 style object.
That's the high-calc method fighting itself.
And the worst part is that the "real-world reference" claim would make this even more suspicious, not less.
If Toriyama had Goku strain hard with a much lower object, then shortly afterward drew a boulder that fan math can push much higher, why assume the boulder calc is the intended physical scale?
Why not ask whether Toriyama just drew a big boulder scene without thinking through the exact tonnage? Gvenhe just drew a much lower object as a cap?
Obviously his "real world reference" failed there.
That's exactly the kind of thing the high side already accuses doing when the number is low.
So apply it evenly?
Don't eyeball the boulder upward while ignoring the car strain.
Don't treat a push like a deadlift.
Don't treat Turtle carry like it disproves worn-load performance burden.
Don't treat crushing/shearing as clean LS without checking contact, material, and failure assumptions.
Don't vibe the Z-Sword into absurd tonnage while ignoring the actual ground damage.
Don't use "real-world reference" only when it inflates the value.
That's starting to appear to be a huge issue.
The high side isn't actually using real-world reference.
It is using selective intuition.
When intuition makes a scene higher, suddenly "anyone can tell".
When the manga gives a lower direct load, suddenly "Toriyama did not understand what he was writing".
Yeah nah.
If Dragon Ball visual physics are loose, then the high boulder/tree/crush stuff is loose too.
And if the early visuals disagree with each other, that doesn't undercut the later chain anyway.
The repeated weight/load/gravity framework does not rely on Chapter 1 being perfect.
It develops later and keeps coming back with clearer mechanics, stated values, explicit gravity math, and direct load failures while hilariously described and explained showing Toriyama, even if he didn't get some other stuff, at least got this.
So the "correct conclusion" is not:
- "the boulder obviously contradicts the shells, therefore the direct chain is fake"
- early Dragon Ball visual physics are messy, especially when fan-calced into exact tonnage, so the high side should not treat those visual calcs as stronger than the later repeated direct load framework.
The early high pile asks us to eyeball a big object, choose assumptions, calculate a value, then pretend that value was obviously intended over the contrary.
Part 3:
I'm at the point I legitimately can't tell if people are doing this on purpose, or truly just don't understand the point being made.
This doesn't complicate the weighted-clothing logic at all.
It again proves nothing but the opposition is fighting a strawman that was never made.
Krillin reacting to Goku's weighted clothes isn't a failure scene.
Nobody said Krillin couldn't lift them.
Nobody said the weighted clothes were Goku's absolute max lift.
Nobody said every weighted object in the arc has to equal someone's strict LS ceiling.
So opening with "Krillin can react to/lift parts of the clothing" doesn't refute anything.
It proves the obvious:
- the clothes are liftable.
The actual point of the scene is that the clothes are heavy enough to be a meaningful combat burden.
Krillin reacts to the weight.
Tenshinhan reacts to the fact Goku was fighting that well while wearing them.
That's the scene's purpose.
The manga isn't saying:
- "These weights are impossible to lift"
- "Goku was fighting under a real load, and removing it matters"
The whole objection depends on swapping those two claims.
This is the exact level of logic being used here:
- "Someone can move around with a 40 kg backpack, so you can't say 20 kg still registers".
That's asinine.
You can carry a heavy backpack and still have a smaller worn load mess with how you sprint, jump, dodge, twist, kick, punch, balance, and fight.
You can deadlift a weight and still get slowed by a much smaller load attached to your body.
You can move with a load higher than PIECES of a greater one, and still be shocked someone else was fighting efficiently while wearing it at a level you wouldn't be able to replicate wearing it.
This isn't hard to understand.
The very fact Krillin can lift or react to the clothes doesn't mean the clothes are meaningless.
It means the clothes are below his absolute lifting limit.
The point is that they're still heavy enough to matter in combat, and that's exactly how the manga uses them.
This is even more absurd when the comparison is being made to the turtle shells.
The turtle shells were already a worn training burden.
Goku and Krillin broke past that burden through training.
Then later Goku's weighted clothes are a combined load above that old shell weight, in a combat context that's basically the same burden concept pushed harder.
So yes, of course Krillin can recognize the weight.
Of course it's not some impossible-to-budge object.
That doesn't make it fake, to low, or anything of the sort, it's over twice the burden as the previous one.
That's the whole point of progressive training?
A prior burden can become manageable, while a heavier or differently worn burden can still be notable.
That's literally how the training chain works.
This is the same mistake over and over:
- "Can lift the object"
- "the object can't hinder speed, stamina, timing, footwork, balance, or combat output"
That's normal.
A person can lift 100 kg off the floor and still fight much worse with 10 kg strapped onto his body.
That doesn't make the 10 kg meaningless, BUT it does undercut any absurdity, especially when the ratio and caps escalate and build off each other.
It means max lifting and fighting while wearing weight aren't the same context.
Dragon Ball itself uses this exact logic multiple times.
- The turtle shells are training burdens.
- Goku's weighted clothes at the 23rd Budokai are a combat burden.
- Removing them boosts his movement and fighting ability.
- Against Raditz, the exact same weighted-clothing mechanic comes back, and removing the clothes improves performance again.
- On Kaio's planet, the same general type of body/clothing burden multiplied by 10G becomes crippling at first.
- Giving us the burden/combat/upper limit, ratio even.
- the clothing alone is meaningful but usable.
- the same general burden multiplied by 10 becomes a serious active limit.
That's THE consistency.
It's the exact repeated mechanic this side has been pointing to the whole time.
Krillin and Tenshinhan reacting to the clothes helps that point.
They aren't shocked because the clothes are some unliftable god-tier mass.
They're shocked because Goku was moving and fighting that well while burdened.
That's literally why the scene exists.
The cloud jump doesn't change this either.
A cloud jump is not a direct quantified load scene.
It's not the manga saying:
- "Krillin can lift X tons"
So trying to make that override the weighted-clothing scene is backwards.
One scene directly gives a physical burden, has characters react to it, and shows that removing it changes fighting performance.
The other is a jump that has to be converted into LS through outside math.
Those aren't equal kinds of evidence.
And the "same arc" excuse doesn't fix that. Same arc doesn't mean every physical action gets fused into one stat bucket with no context.
The shell training is literally about worn loads making movement harder.
The weighted clothes are literally about worn loads making combat harder.
The Raditz scene repeats the same idea, and Kaio's planet repeats the same idea again, with gravity multiplying the burden until it becomes an active limit.
That's the pattern.
That's the consistency.
And you wanna talk about "same arc"?
If that makes things so much better, why are you even arguing against this given the OP's examples not only exist "in the same arc", but every arc till the end of the manga.
So pointing to a jump and going "but this calc is higher" isn't exposing an issue with the chain.
It's just ignoring what kind of scene is being discussed.
It's the same fake issue as always:
- take a dynamic action,
- convert it into a big number,
- pretend that number is now a cleaner LS ceiling
- than the manga's direct load scenes,
- then act confused when direct burden scenes still matter.
So no, Krillin touching/lifting parts of the weighted clothes doesn't hurt the 115 kg logic.
It helps it.
The scene isn't about proving the clothes are impossible to lift.
The scene is about proving Goku was fighting under a meaningful physical burden.
- Krillin reacting to the weight supports that.
- Tenshinhan reacting to Goku's performance supports that.
- The later Raditz clothing removal supports that.
- The Kaio 10G burden supports that.
- The shell training supports that.
- The whole repeated mechanic supports that.
- "below max lift"
- "not a meaningful burden"
- it's TO LOW so it's inconsistent
It's like saying a fighter who can lift 200 kg can't be slowed by 30 kg of worn weight.
It's like saying a hiker who can move with a 50 kg pack has no right to call a 20 kg combat load heavy.
It's like saying worn load, max lift, sprinting, jumping, and fighting are all the same physical context.
They aren't.
And acting like they are isn't an argument.
It's forcing the scene into a fake contradiction because the direct manga evidence is inconvenient.
So this point fails.
Krillin and Tenshinhan reacting to the weighted clothes is not a problem for the lower chain.
It's part of why the lower chain works.
Part 3:
And:
Yes, context matters. It seems I'm the only person in this thread that actually thinks so no less.
Literally my point.
Which is why I never argued:
- "20 kg shell = exact max lift".
- "20 kg shell = physically meaningful burden at that stage".
A worn load doesn't need to be someone's max lift to matter.
A 20 kg shell during running, swimming, milk delivery, field work, and all-day training is not a laptop in a backpack.
A 115 kg weighted outfit used during combat is not a dumbbell picked up once.
A load strapped to your body can affect stamina, balance, acceleration, joints, footwork, swimming, jumping, and combat movement long before it equals your one-rep max.
Anyone who has trained or ever went to a gym longer than 5 minutes should know this.
You can deadlift 200 kg and still have 10 kg ankle weights mess with your movement.
You can lift a heavy object once and still get worn down badly by a far smaller attached load over time.
So yes, placement, duration, distribution, and activity type matter.
That helps the burden argument.
It doesn't make it vanish.
And this is exactly why the earlier "raw weight comparison" objections were bad.
You can't spend half the debate acting like:
- "well the character can move more than 20 kg, so 20 kg can't matter",
- "the clothes weigh more than the shells, so the shell logic is complicated",
- "if they can lift more once, the worn burden shouldn't affect them",
- "actually, worn-weight impairment is context-dependent".
If placement matters, then 30 kg strapped to the body can matter differently than 30 kg held in the hands.
If activity matters, then all-day movement training isn't the same as picking something up once.
If distribution matters, then 100 kg hanging on Piccolo's neck or body can hinder him even if his max lift is above 100 kg.
So the laptop analogy doesn't refute the chain.
It refutes the same straw objections to the chain.
The manga itself gives us the ratio anyway.
Kaio's planet again:
- Goku's 115 kg weighted clothes are already meaningful at 1G as a performance burden.
- Then under 10G, that same clothing burden becomes about 1,150 kg by itself.
- Add Goku's bodyweight under 10G and his total burden is around 1.7 tons.
- He is badly hindered.
- Not just softly now.
- He takes the clothes off.
- His burden drops to roughly 620 kg from bodyweight alone.
- He immediately does better, though the gravity still affects him.
- Then Kaio tells him to put the clothes back on because the training will be more effective.
The weights are meaningful at 1x.
Multiply the same type of burden by 10x and it becomes a near-crippling training load.
Removing the clothes helps.
Putting them back on makes training harder.
So no, this isn't some impossible mystery where burden scenes tell us nothing, this is why we actually fact check first.
The manga literally demonstrates the scale of relevance.
Does that give an exact max lift?
No.
It gives a clear bracket.
It tells us that these loads are physically meaningful and that multiplying them by 10 pushes Goku near the edge of what he can function through at that point.
That is enough to reject absurd high-end readings.
And this is where the argument fails completely.
If the gap were something like:
- "20 kg burden vs 200 kg",
That's normal.
But the high side isn't just arguing a small gap.
You're all arguing gaps of thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of times.
That isn't:
- "1 kg laptop vs 40 kg deadlift".
- "0.01 kg dust speck vs 100 kg burden".
A worn load can matter below your max lift.
But a worn load that is effectively dust compared to your alleged strength shouldn't be repeatedly framed as a serious burden, training tool, performance limiter, or near-limit, especially with "real world reference" intuition.
The lower chain doesn't need the shell/clothes/gravity burdens to be exact ceilings.
It only needs them to be meaningful, support, and even integrate into the higher ones.
And the manga keeps showing they are meaningful.
The high side is the one trying to have it both ways:
- When dismissing the burden chain, they act like any higher feat makes the burden irrelevant.
- When defending the laptop analogy, they admit worn burdens are context-dependent and can matter far below max LS.
At the same time, don't pretend context can support a gap of thousands of times.
Context explains why 10 kg ankle weights can bother someone who can lift much more.
It doesn't explain why a character allegedly operating in Class M/G would care about 20 kg, 115 kg, 1.7 tons, 6 tons, 15-18 tons, 40 tons, or 1,000 tons in the specific ways the story shows.
So yes, context matters.
And the context is exactly why the burden chain works.
It isn't:
- "? kg impaired them, thus exact max is ?".
- "THIS kg impaired them, later 10X/X00X versions also impair or cap them, and these burden ranges keep lining up with the stated load scenes".
But absolutely enough to reject the idea that the characters were secretly thousands of times above these burdens the whole time, especially when the same burdens get explained, built upon, and escalate.
And:
And:
Why are all of you harping on other verses?
I quite frankly couldn't care less what verse #37568 gets. We're discussing DB.
If Flash is truly as bad as I'm being led to believe, that's its own can of worms. It isn't a defense for Dragon Ball, and it isn't proof of a double standard when we already do what's being suggested for DB with multiple other major verses like JJK or the MCU.
But more importantly, speed and LS have different types of evidence and different failure modes.
A speed scene can involve FTE visuals, gag movement, panel cuts, stylized motion, reaction shots, travel vs combat vs reaction splits, and art shorthand.
A lifting scene where a stated load is used or failed is a much more direct physical interaction.
Even if Roshi speed had contradictions, that wouldn't tell us how to rate Dragon Ball LS. At most, it tells us Dragon Ball can be inconsistent.
Which, so? This is the time it isn't inconsistent.
The question is which LS evidence is stronger in this specific case.
If a series had repeated stated-and-shown speed caps, with training steps, direct struggle, and later caps, while some visual scenes calced much higher, I would scrutinize the higher visual scenes instead of blindly letting them override the direct progression.
That's not absurd, it's standard weighing evidence.
The reply keeps using analogies as if "a similar issue exists elsewhere" solves the Dragon Ball LS issue.
It doesn't.
Dragon Ball LS has to be judged on its own evidence.
Also, the Roshi comparison doesn't actually work.
You're comparing a 100-meter running feat to short-burst tournament combat/FTE movement and acting like that proves "Toriyama's numbers are fake caps".
Roshi's 100-meter feat is a movement/running feat:
- Roshi = 100 m / 5.6 s = 17.857142857142858 m/s.
It's one of the explicit movement speed feats, and one of the BETTER ones even for that point in the story, which he immediately ends with implying he can and has done better.
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Then, later in the Budokai, Roshi performs short-burst combat speed / attack speed / FTE exchanges while putting in far more effort.
That isn't the same category as a casual 100-meter run.
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For the feat being talked about, he is yelling, visibly exerting, throwing attacks, and escalating into a brief high-speed exchange with Krillin.
The feat itself is basically low FTE. It's only a few attacks in a non-excessive time, and part of it took around 0.2 seconds stated verbatim.
As a rough proof of concept, we can pixel scale exactly later:
- Roshi height = 165 cm.
- Leg length = 165 cm * 0.53 = 87.45 cm.
- Arm reach = 165 cm * 0.44 = 72.6 cm.
- Forward movement = 2.1336 m.
- Side kick out/back = 1.749 m.
- Punch out/back = 1.452 m.
- RPS/point out/back = 1.452 m.
- Jump into dive kick = 0.9144 m.
- Dive-kick/finish distance = 4.572 m.
- Total movement = 2.1336 + 1.749 + 1.452 + 1.452 + 0.9144 + 4.572 = 12.273 m.
- Time = 0.25 seconds.
- Speed = 12.273 / 0.25 = 49.092 m/s.
And even if you use half a second, it drops to about 25 m/s, still something a normal person wouldn't track clearly. It'd basically be blink-and-you-missed-it.
So I'm not sure what the point was. You're pointing to a decent effort combat feat that's still in a reasonable range compared to the casual run once category and effort are considered.
If anything, this makes Toriyama look better with numbers he gives for displaying output than the argument wants.
They even mention 0.2 seconds in the scene, which is at the cusp of normal human perception, so Toriyama was working with basic FTE timing here.
Ignoring all that, VSBW separates movement/travel speed, combat speed, reaction speed, attack speed, and flight speed. And it does so especially for Dragon Ball.
So unless ya'll trying to merge travel speed and combat speed into one stat, this isn't a contradiction. And if you're trying to merge them, that's a separate CRT issue, not an argument against DB's LS chain.
DB speed already has tons of low travel/movement showings later too. Goku taking hours to cross Snake Way, Namek distance issues, Gohan taking long travel times, characters needing flight time to cross areas, etc.
The wiki doesn't treat every short-burst combat feat as invalidating every travel-time showing because those aren't the same thing.
So no, Roshi doesn't prove "Toriyama wrote low numbers while not understanding caps".
At best it proves DB characters can have higher short-burst combat/reaction speed than sustained running/travel speed. And in this instance, it's surprisingly consistent.
That's already normal. That's already how the wiki handles speed. And it has nothing to do with whether repeated quantified load scenes should lose to mixed/inconsistent LS calcs.
The Qaws point is the same issue again.
"If accepted" is doing all the work.
Accepted as what?
Accepted as math?
Accepted as one-off feat?
Accepted as representative LS?
Accepted as overriding direct caps?
Those aren't the same.
And if we like whataboutisms, Koro-sensei is a decent example. He has feats above Mach 20, but nobody hre would throw out the repeated Mach 20 framing just because some higher-looking feats exist.
Why? Because repeated direct framing matters.
Same principle here.
Then:
Good. Ok so main point conceded.
- TK is mechanically distinct.
- TK can work outside normal physical LS logic.
- TK can be higher than someone's physical LS.
- TK shouldn't be treated as equivalent to standard physical LS.
Then Cell's TK is utterly irrelevant.
That should already remove it from the main high LS pile.
If Cell has higher TK lifting strength or restraint ability, who cares?
- That doesn't mean Gohan's physical LS scales to it.
- That doesn't mean every comparable AP character scales to it.
- That doesn't mean it overrides the direct weight/gravity/load chain.
- That doesn't mean it becomes conventional muscle output.
The attempt to save it however is this:
And:
And then he ends with:
Ok well first off "correct position", not how this works, literally same sentence goes "this is weak btw". Not even really the case anyway...
So after conceding TK isn't standard physical LS, the remaining argument is:
- Cell didn't use it on Gohan, so maybe it wouldn't work, so MAYBE Gohan scales.
- That is not a feat.
- That is not a statement.
- That is not a direct interaction.
- That is not Gohan resisting Cell's TK.
- That is not Cell's TK failing.
- That is not physical LS.
- "Oh you have this hax ability but didn't use it, ig I'm immune to it lmao".
And it's basically admitted.
"Weak but non-zero evidential support" is not enough to turn TK into a conventional physical LS anchor.
That whole phrase is an issue with the type of arguing going on here.
If the best defense is weak non-zero inference, then the feat shouldn't even be brought up let alone be sitting in the same pile as normal lifting/pushing/pulling feats.
Especially not in a thread where the high side needs clean evidence strong enough to override direct stated-and-shown load caps.
"Maybe Cell would've used it if it worked" doesn't do that.
Cell does not use every technique available to him in every fight.
Characters in Dragon Ball constantly don't use every optimal move.
Goddamn Piccolo FORGOT he could use Explosive Wave.
Villains especially don't fight like this.
- Cell is arrogant.
- Cell is theatrical.
- Cell wants to prove superiority.
- Cell likes humiliating people.
- Cell reacts emotionally when Gohan starts humiliating him.
- Cell makes bad choices.
So "he didn't use this, so maybe it must not work" is a mindboggling standard.
By that logic, every unused move in every losing fight becomes anti-evidence.
- Why didn't Cell use the Solar Flare more? We know that would still work.
- Why didn't Cell spam regeneration with better spacing?
- Why didn't Cell use every Frieza technique? Like the Light Cage, Supernova, or just do what RoF Frieza did and just touch the ground once without the emotional crash-out suicide attempt?
- Why didn't Cell use every Piccolo technique? Like elasticity, magic, and more?
- Why didn't Cell use every inherited meme from every cell donor?
- Hell why is he using the Kamehameha? Use the Special Beam Cannon instead, that has piercing, can hit harder above his limit, grants a larger Ki spike, and Gohan was just letting him charge shit for a time there too?
- Why didn't he open the fight with the exact most optimal move at every second?
And neither is he.
They are character-driven fights.
Cell chooses options based on ego, panic, humiliation, and drama.
Not perfect math.
The Grade 3 point doesn't fix this.
Saying Cell using Grade 3 proves Cell was "throwing mechanics at the wall".
But Grade 3 is not evidence that Cell would use every possible technique.
It actually proves the opposite, he crashed out because he was WEAKER so he reached for a specific power-up in a specific emotional state to GET POWER.
We're literally told this in various things, we don't need to guess here we know his thought process.
- It does not prove he exhausted his entire toolkit.
- It does not prove TK was tested and failed.
- It does not prove Cell's TK was below Gohan's physical LS.
Same with self-destruction.
Cell trying to blow himself up does not prove every other move was exhausted. Because they weren't, factually so.
It proves he hit a final tantrum option after being humiliated so bad and had his ego come crashing down, just like Vegeta and Frieza (who he inherits from) did before him.
A desperate character using one extreme option does not mean every unused option was confirmed useless.
This is especially bad because the actual TK examples go the opposite way.
- General Blue and Chaozu can affect people above their normal physical level under the right conditions.
- Frieza's light cage can immobilize Goku despite Goku being physically comparable to the suppressed Frieza he is fighting.
So if TK is weird and separate, then why are we trying to reverse-scale Gohan's physical LS from Cell not using it?
That's the very leap the mechanic concession blocks.
The actual evidence says:
- TK is a special mechanic.
- TK can restrain or affect characters without applying to physical LS.
- TK (especially in this case as it comes from Frieza) is higher/weirder than the user's normal physical LS.
- Cell inherited Frieza's TK.
- So Cell can have higher TK LS/restraint ability.
What isn't though:
- Cell has TK.
- Cell didn't use it on Gohan.
- Gohan's physical LS scales above it.
That is a maybe, if even.
And a maybe is not enough.
The old attempted save was even worse:
Based on what? Mind you this still applies here, may as well copy paste.
TK is not power null.
Nothing about Cell's TK says it shuts off:
- ki blasts,
- AoE ki bursts,
- explosive waves,
- homing attacks,
- raw ki expansion,
- or any other ki counter.
- "Cell uses TK and Gohan suddenly can't use his powers",
A lot of evidence, actually.
Because now this is no longer just "Cell can restrain him".
It's "Cell can restrain him, stop all counters, maintain range, avoid AoE, and win".
That's fanon at best.
And "Cell stands far enough away and dodges" is also conjecture.
What range are we giving Cell's TK here?
Most TK uses in Dragon Ball are close or mid range.
Cell's actual TK range is not some infinite safe-zoner option.
Ki attacks can travel huge distances, can be AoE, and can be homing or wide-area.
If Cell has to stand far enough away to avoid Gohan's counterattack, he may be leaving the reliable range of the TK anyway.
But more importantly, none of this happens.
- "Cell could TK Gohan".
- "Cell could stop him from using ki".
- "Cell could stay far enough away".
- "Cell could dodge the AoE (he can't, if his hand motions change pathing)"
- "Cell could win that way".
None of that is shown.
None of that is stated.
It's just assumptions being piled together to make an excuse for a scaling point.
And we can invent counters all day too.
- Maybe Gohan dodges the hand gesture.
- Maybe Gohan blitzes before it matters.
- Maybe Gohan bursts his ki out.
- Maybe Gohan uses an AoE.
- Maybe Gohan fires a homing attack.
- Maybe Cell can't hold him and dodge at the same time.
- Maybe Cell can't safely maintain the TK under Gohan's pressure.
- Maybe Cell doesn't use it because it needs a visible gesture and Gohan is too fast.
- Maybe Cell doesn't use it because it doesn't fit his ego-driven brawling in that moment.
- Maybe Cell doesn't use it because Toriyama simply didn't want him to.
Once we leave actual feats and start writing hypothetical fight choreography, anything can be argued.
We are not scaling off that. There's nothing of substance there.
- If Cell's TK failed on Gohan, post it.
- If Gohan physically overpowered Cell's TK, post it.
- If the manga says Cell's TK wouldn't work because Gohan's physical LS is too high, post it.
- If there is a direct statement that Gohan's physical strength exceeds Cell's TK restraint, post it.
That is not enough.
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Also, Cell's TK needs arm/hand gestures like Frieza's general TK style.
It's not some passive aura that instantly wins the second he thinks about it.
It has tells.
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Characters can react to TK once they understand it.
Goku has on-panel dealt with TK-style restraint before by taking measures against Blue after learning of it (poking his eyes given that's his method), and Gohan, ironically, knows about Frieza's (which is Cell's).
So again, acting like Cell had a guaranteed no-counter win condition is nonsense.
The "ultimate lifeform with tactical intelligence" point is just confusing?
Cell being smart does not make him perfectly optimal.
If anything, the entire Cell Games proves the opposite.
- He gives people time to roid out.
- He plays around and sandbags when he doesn't know people's actual power.
- He stages a tournament.
- He lets Gohan power up emotionally and LITERALLY gets himself killed because of it.
- He creates the Cell Juniors to torment people which got him killed.
- He gets angry.
- He gets humiliated.
- He uses Grade 3 despite knowing its flaw because he's busy crashing out over the fact Gohan has a higher power output than him and is desperate to prove otherwise.
- He starts having a mental breakdown down when Gohan outclasses him.
- He tries to self-destruct instead of just tapping the ground while he was sitting in a pile of debris like Frieza does later.
Cell is intelligent, but he's also arrogant, theatrical, and has bits of Vegeta, Goku, and Frieza in him, which may as well be a built-in handicap setting.
He does dumb things because his ego is part of the fight.
So "Cell would've used it if it worked" isn't reliable enough to become scaling.
At most, it's a weak character-behavior inference.
And again, you admit that.
- Weak non-zero support doesn't help convert TK into physical LS.
- Weak non-zero support doesn't make Gohan scale to Cell's TK.
- Weak non-zero support doesn't put Cell's TK into the conventional LS pile.
- Weak non-zero support doesn't override the direct weight/gravity chain.
- Cell can have higher TK LS/restraint ability.
- Frieza can have higher TK LS/restraint ability.
But TK isn't standard physical lifting strength.
- It doesn't scale to everyone comparable in AP.
- It doesn't scale to Gohan just because Cell didn't use it.
- It doesn't become a clean pillar of the high LS case.
- 19,725
- 21,171
The claim is basically this:
First, how do you know why Toriyama chose those numbers?
Unless there's an interview where Toriyama actually says this, that is just guessed author psychology.
You can assume it you want, but you sure as hell can't say it as fact or assert it objectively. Could you imagine? I've spent this whole thread being careful with doing that "could", "maybe", "perhaps he didn't", are we allowed to just do that now? Argue instead of "well this is a possibly of intent or accidental" and just go "nah he did fr man".
And if we're allowed to freely guess what Toriyama was or was not thinking, the high pile gets hit much harder than the explicit weight chain.
Because I can just as easily say:
Because the high pile depends almost entirely on hidden physics Toriyama likely did not intend, calculate, or care about per the opposition's own admission.
So if the argument is "Toriyama is not an engineer", then we have to stop acting like fan-derived engineering from his action panels is the true standard.
You can't say:
That is beyond backwards.
The stated weights are at least the numbers the manga itself chose to communicate.
The high calcs are numbers fans extracted from visuals.
Those are not equally direct.
Second, even if he did pick the numbers because they "sounded big", so what?
That is still what he picked.
This isn't one random low number that appeared once and was forgotten. It's a repeated load framework.
And that alone already answers the "Toriyama doesn't respect his own weight statements", angle that I've been seeing a few people mention as well.
If the manga kept giving one-off weight numbers and then never touched the idea again, sure, that'd be one thing. But that isn't what happens. The same load logic keeps coming back in different forms: worn weights, gravity burdens, bodyweight math, training weights, heavy-object struggles, failed movement, and later cap-breakers, the majority even call back to past examples too.
Whether Toriyama treated every number like an engineering document isn't the issue here. The issue is that, when Dragon Ball wants to portray physical burden, it repeatedly returns to this same framework. The occasional roundabout combat visual happening around it don't erase that. They just show AP/combat spectacle isn't inherently the same thing as direct LS/load evidence.
The manga keeps cycling through the same interconnected examples and framework: added weight, gravity-multiplied burden, explicit bodyweight math, adaptation through training, then later heavier objects and failed-movement caps.
If he didn't respect it, he wouldn't keep coming back to it.
It does not need to be listed fifty different times gang, the fact it's listed close to that however is also overkill.
The point is that Dragon Ball repeatedly uses the same basic structure:
except to small apparently number".
That is one of the only physical systems in Dragon Ball that the manga actually remembers, explains, and escalates across multiple arcs.
So even if the initial reason was "it sounded impressive", that doesn't make the value fake. It means that value is the intended narrative scale.
A value being chosen for narrative effect does not erase the value.
It is the value.
For example:
Cell's solar system statement was also chosen because "solar system" sounds like a huge escalation.
Nothing in the manga visually comes close to showing an actual solar system being destroyed, at all, the BEST FEAT is, if done properly THOUSANDS of times off.
Yet people still accept it because it's framed as an escalation from prior moon/planet-destruction power.
Same logic here, greater logic here even.
The weight/gravity chain is an intended escalation too.
And this one is actually more mechanically cohesive than a lot of Dragon Ball's big AP statements (pick up Daizenshuu, some of those statements suspect af).
The manga doesn't just say "18 tons" in a void. It explains that if someone's body weighs 60 kg, then 300G makes the effective burden 18 tons.
60 kg x 300 = 18 tons.
That isn't just "18 tons sounds big". That's an in-universe scientist explaining the load calculation and actually being correct about it, using a normal value as the foundational basis.
Same with 100G. A normal human would be crushed, Goku is warned not to jump straight to it, he starts lower, and he adapts upward.
That is a clear physical progression.
The direct chain isn't:
Third, the actual distinction is being muddied a bit (a lot) here.
The distinction isn't:
The direct chain is drawn too.
The actual distinction is:
In the direct chain, the manga tells us the load and shows the character interacting with that load.
In the high pile, fans look at a panel and infer material, size, density, distance, speed, surface area, deformation, momentum, body mass, leverage, or some other model, then convert that into tonnage, and then assume those physics should be applied because Toriyama didn't know better per one's own arguments?
Those are not equally direct.
Both can be imperfect(not here though).
They are not equally reliable.
If Toriyama's physical intuition is imperfect, that hurts the high action-panel calcs more relative to the chain, not less.
As it's those exact high values require assuming Toriyama accidentally encoded precise lifting benchmarks into panels that were likely drawn to look dramatic, destructive, fast, heavy, or funny.
Phone booth crushes, boulder sizes, pillar, rock scaling, jump arcs, giant-body mass, and momentum feats all depend on extracting real engineering from stylized manga panels.
So again:
If "Toriyama is not an engineer", then stop treating engineering derived from his action panels as more authoritative than the explicit load numbers he actually wrote.
You can't say:
You can't say:
You can't say:
That is not consistency.
That's throwing skepticism at the direct evidence while attempting to protect the indirect pile because the indirect pile gives you the number you want.
Fourth, the "he picked it because it sounded big" argument is especially odd because the whole complaint is that the numbers are not big enough.
So which is it?
Are these numbers huge narrative burdens chosen to show extraordinary strength?
Or are they tiny decorative values that should not matter?
The answer is obvious:
That's circular.
That's basically saying:
You can't just assume the high pile is correct, then use that assumption to call the direct burden chain decorative, especially when conceded it's incoherent and less consistent.
That's just worming the conclusion into the premise.
Fifth, "treat everything with uncertainty in both directions" honestly just tells us the big problem here.
But sure, ya know what, good, apply uncertainty evenly.
The high action-panel pile is much more vulnerable because those values aren't written by the manga at all.
They are fan extractions and extrapolation.
If we're uncertain about Toriyama's physical intuition, then we should be especially uncertain about hidden physics pulled from the disconnected, self-admitted incoherent pile and other roundabout conversions.
That doesn't mean:
And the direct load chain still wins that comparison.
That, would be but one difference.
So yeah apply uncertainty to both, but after you actually analyze both, only one of them is uncertain anymore.
This isn't a "both sides have uncertainty, so they cancel out" situation.
Not all uncertainty is equal.
A direct load scene with a stated weight and visible strain is not the same as a fan deciding an object-damage panel secretly encodes a 100,000 ton LS feat.
The fact both involve fictional physics does not make them equal.
The high side keeps trying to avoid defending its own pile by saying:
This doesn't at all make your side more reliable.
If anything, the moment we admit Toriyama isn't doing precise engineering, the fan-calced high pile should be the first thing put away, as that pile depends on the exact kind of engineering he probably was not thinking about.
The direct chain, meanwhile, only depends on the manga meaning what it directly says and shows.
That's a much smaller assumption.
Sixth, this is why the hierarchy is simple:
Nor does it mean the weight chain is perfectly realisticit's actually extremely realistic, but for argument's sake.
It means direct, repeated, mechanically connected load scenes have better evidentiary priority than indirect physics extractions from scenes that were not framed as lifting benchmarks to begin with.
The direct chain has:
So no.
"You do not know why Toriyama chose the numbers".
And even if he chose them because they sounded big, those are still the burdens the manga chose, pushed, escalated, explained, and kept returning to.
Meanwhile, if we start speculating about what Toriyama did not understand, the high pile gets hit first and harder.
So don't play this selective-skepticism game where Toriyama is suddenly too stupid to understand 40 tons when the manga says 40 tons after explaining what 20 tons meant, but somehow precise enough to accidentally encode six-figure LS through a phone booth crush, a jump arc, Tao's pillar, or Giant Piccolo's body mass.
The actual point isn't that Dragon Ball's weight numbers are perfect.
The point is that when the manga repeatedly gives direct load values, shows those loads mattering, explains the gravity math, escalates that same mechanic across arcs, and later gives caps in the same lane, (all with some support here-and-there that acts as caps, contradictions to the high-ends, or are also direct callbacks), that evidence outranks hidden fan-calced tonnage from action panels.
Which is why the very chain that ya'll want to deny is important.
Ya'll wish. That argument collapses almost immediately, it relies entirely on selective skepticism in place of actual evidence or weighting.
First, how do you know why Toriyama chose those numbers?
- "He chose 20 kg because it sounded like a hard training weight for a child"
- "He chose 40 tons because it sounded impressive for a human-sized fighter"
- "He chose 1,000 tons because it sounded absurd and comical"
Unless there's an interview where Toriyama actually says this, that is just guessed author psychology.
You can assume it you want, but you sure as hell can't say it as fact or assert it objectively. Could you imagine? I've spent this whole thread being careful with doing that "could", "maybe", "perhaps he didn't", are we allowed to just do that now? Argue instead of "well this is a possibly of intent or accidental" and just go "nah he did fr man".
And if we're allowed to freely guess what Toriyama was or was not thinking, the high pile gets hit much harder than the explicit weight chain.
Because I can just as easily say:
- Toriyama absolutely didn't understand that making Giant Piccolo 10x taller would make him around 1,000x heavier, not 10x heavier.
- Toriyama surely didn't think random jump arcs secretly implied huge lifting values, especially when the same logic would make later movement scenes into anti-feats.
- Toriyama probably definitely didn't think crushing a phone booth, cracking rock, or deforming ground could be converted into a massive LS number through deformation mechanics.
- Toriyama 100% didn't intend Tao's pillar to become a verse-defining lifting benchmark.
- Toriyama actively inflated impact/crushing visuals for drama beyond what the stated weights would realistically produce, like Great Ape Gohan falling on Vegeta and making a bigger impact than his weight and fall height would actually be capable of producing by a few magnitudes.
Because the high pile depends almost entirely on hidden physics Toriyama likely did not intend, calculate, or care about per the opposition's own admission.
So if the argument is "Toriyama is not an engineer", then we have to stop acting like fan-derived engineering from his action panels is the true standard.
You can't say:
- "Toriyama didn't really know what 40 tons means",
That is beyond backwards.
The stated weights are at least the numbers the manga itself chose to communicate.
The high calcs are numbers fans extracted from visuals.
Those are not equally direct.
Second, even if he did pick the numbers because they "sounded big", so what?
That is still what he picked.
- He picked 20 kg.
- He picked 40 kg.
- He picked 115 kg.
- He picked 200 kg.
- He picked 10G.
- He picked 20G.
- He picked 30G.
- He picked 50G.
- He picked 100G.
- he picked 150G.
- He picked 300G.
- He picked 8 tons.
- He picked 40 tons.
- He picked 1,000 tons.
This isn't one random low number that appeared once and was forgotten. It's a repeated load framework.
And that alone already answers the "Toriyama doesn't respect his own weight statements", angle that I've been seeing a few people mention as well.
If the manga kept giving one-off weight numbers and then never touched the idea again, sure, that'd be one thing. But that isn't what happens. The same load logic keeps coming back in different forms: worn weights, gravity burdens, bodyweight math, training weights, heavy-object struggles, failed movement, and later cap-breakers, the majority even call back to past examples too.
Whether Toriyama treated every number like an engineering document isn't the issue here. The issue is that, when Dragon Ball wants to portray physical burden, it repeatedly returns to this same framework. The occasional roundabout combat visual happening around it don't erase that. They just show AP/combat spectacle isn't inherently the same thing as direct LS/load evidence.
The manga keeps cycling through the same interconnected examples and framework: added weight, gravity-multiplied burden, explicit bodyweight math, adaptation through training, then later heavier objects and failed-movement caps.
If he didn't respect it, he wouldn't keep coming back to it.
It does not need to be listed fifty different times gang, the fact it's listed close to that however is also overkill.
The point is that Dragon Ball repeatedly uses the same basic structure:
- known load > visible burden > adaptation > higher load > later cap.
That is one of the only physical systems in Dragon Ball that the manga actually remembers, explains, and escalates across multiple arcs.
So even if the initial reason was "it sounded impressive", that doesn't make the value fake. It means that value is the intended narrative scale.
A value being chosen for narrative effect does not erase the value.
It is the value.
For example:
Cell's solar system statement was also chosen because "solar system" sounds like a huge escalation.
Nothing in the manga visually comes close to showing an actual solar system being destroyed, at all, the BEST FEAT is, if done properly THOUSANDS of times off.
Yet people still accept it because it's framed as an escalation from prior moon/planet-destruction power.
Same logic here, greater logic here even.
The weight/gravity chain is an intended escalation too.
And this one is actually more mechanically cohesive than a lot of Dragon Ball's big AP statements (pick up Daizenshuu, some of those statements suspect af).
The manga doesn't just say "18 tons" in a void. It explains that if someone's body weighs 60 kg, then 300G makes the effective burden 18 tons.
60 kg x 300 = 18 tons.
That isn't just "18 tons sounds big". That's an in-universe scientist explaining the load calculation and actually being correct about it, using a normal value as the foundational basis.
Same with 100G. A normal human would be crushed, Goku is warned not to jump straight to it, he starts lower, and he adapts upward.
That is a clear physical progression.
The direct chain isn't:
- "Toriyama threw out some random numbers."
- the manga gives the load, sometimes explains the math, shows the burden, and then escalates the same mechanic later.
Third, the actual distinction is being muddied a bit (a lot) here.
The distinction isn't:
- "what Toriyama says is reliable, but what Toriyama draws is not"
The direct chain is drawn too.
- Goku struggling under gravity is drawn.
- Vegeta hurting himself under 300G is drawn.
- Goku handling 8 tons with effort is drawn.
- Goku needing Super Saiyan for 40 tons is drawn.
- Vegeta failing to move Magetta is drawn.
The actual distinction is:
- drawn-and-stated load interactions
- drawn action panels converted into hidden tonnage through fan assumptions.
In the direct chain, the manga tells us the load and shows the character interacting with that load.
In the high pile, fans look at a panel and infer material, size, density, distance, speed, surface area, deformation, momentum, body mass, leverage, or some other model, then convert that into tonnage, and then assume those physics should be applied because Toriyama didn't know better per one's own arguments?
Those are not equally direct.
Both can be imperfect
They are not equally reliable.
If Toriyama's physical intuition is imperfect, that hurts the high action-panel calcs more relative to the chain, not less.
As it's those exact high values require assuming Toriyama accidentally encoded precise lifting benchmarks into panels that were likely drawn to look dramatic, destructive, fast, heavy, or funny.
Phone booth crushes, boulder sizes, pillar, rock scaling, jump arcs, giant-body mass, and momentum feats all depend on extracting real engineering from stylized manga panels.
So again:
If "Toriyama is not an engineer", then stop treating engineering derived from his action panels as more authoritative than the explicit load numbers he actually wrote.
You can't say:
- "40 tons was just picked because it sounded big",
You can't say:
- "Magetta's 1,000 tons is decorative",
You can't say:
- "Toriyama did not know what these stated weights meant",
That is not consistency.
That's throwing skepticism at the direct evidence while attempting to protect the indirect pile because the indirect pile gives you the number you want.
Fourth, the "he picked it because it sounded big" argument is especially odd because the whole complaint is that the numbers are not big enough.
So which is it?
Are these numbers huge narrative burdens chosen to show extraordinary strength?
Or are they tiny decorative values that should not matter?
The answer is obvious:
- they are big in the context the manga is using them.
- 20 kg and 40 kg are meaningful training burdens.
- 115 kg is meaningful worn weight in combat.
- 10G makes movement difficult.
- 100G is a dangerous threshold Goku has to work up to.
- 300G is an 18 ton body burden and wears Vegeta down.
- 40 tons is too much for Base Goku.
- 1,000 tons is too much for Vegeta to move in Super.
That's circular.
That's basically saying:
- "These stated burdens are unreliable because my inferred high calcs make them look too low"
You can't just assume the high pile is correct, then use that assumption to call the direct burden chain decorative, especially when conceded it's incoherent and less consistent.
That's just worming the conclusion into the premise.
Fifth, "treat everything with uncertainty in both directions" honestly just tells us the big problem here.
But sure, ya know what, good, apply uncertainty evenly.
The high action-panel pile is much more vulnerable because those values aren't written by the manga at all.
They are fan extractions and extrapolation.
If we're uncertain about Toriyama's physical intuition, then we should be especially uncertain about hidden physics pulled from the disconnected, self-admitted incoherent pile and other roundabout conversions.
That doesn't mean:
- "ergo the higher calcs win".
And the direct load chain still wins that comparison.
- It is explicit.
- It is shown.
- It is repeated.
- It is mechanically connected.
- It escalates.
- It has later caps.
- Hell it even has plot relevance at 10+ points.
That, would be but one difference.
So yeah apply uncertainty to both, but after you actually analyze both, only one of them is uncertain anymore.
This isn't a "both sides have uncertainty, so they cancel out" situation.
Not all uncertainty is equal.
A direct load scene with a stated weight and visible strain is not the same as a fan deciding an object-damage panel secretly encodes a 100,000 ton LS feat.
The fact both involve fictional physics does not make them equal.
The high side keeps trying to avoid defending its own pile by saying:
- "Well, your side has uncertainty too".
This doesn't at all make your side more reliable.
If anything, the moment we admit Toriyama isn't doing precise engineering, the fan-calced high pile should be the first thing put away, as that pile depends on the exact kind of engineering he probably was not thinking about.
The direct chain, meanwhile, only depends on the manga meaning what it directly says and shows.
That's a much smaller assumption.
Sixth, this is why the hierarchy is simple:
- direct stated-and-shown load interactions
- hidden fan-calced tonnage from messy action panels.
Nor does it mean the weight chain is perfectly realistic
It means direct, repeated, mechanically connected load scenes have better evidentiary priority than indirect physics extractions from scenes that were not framed as lifting benchmarks to begin with.
The direct chain has:
- numbers the manga actually gives,
- characters reacting to those numbers,
- loads being shown as burdens,
- gravity being explained,
- training escalating through the same mechanic,
- and later caps lining up with that same general logic.
So no.
"You do not know why Toriyama chose the numbers".
And even if he chose them because they sounded big, those are still the burdens the manga chose, pushed, escalated, explained, and kept returning to.
Meanwhile, if we start speculating about what Toriyama did not understand, the high pile gets hit first and harder.
So don't play this selective-skepticism game where Toriyama is suddenly too stupid to understand 40 tons when the manga says 40 tons after explaining what 20 tons meant, but somehow precise enough to accidentally encode six-figure LS through a phone booth crush, a jump arc, Tao's pillar, or Giant Piccolo's body mass.
The actual point isn't that Dragon Ball's weight numbers are perfect.
The point is that when the manga repeatedly gives direct load values, shows those loads mattering, explains the gravity math, escalates that same mechanic across arcs, and later gives caps in the same lane, (all with some support here-and-there that acts as caps, contradictions to the high-ends, or are also direct callbacks), that evidence outranks hidden fan-calced tonnage from action panels.
Which is why the very chain that ya'll want to deny is important.
It was not by my hand that it was brought up.
It has direct ground interaction when dropped.
It was that VERY interaction the opposition was using as a counter for the OP.
That's much closer to LS than half the high pile as at least this time the actual intent is explicitly about LS.
The only reason people want to toss it now is because it stopped helping the high side.
When it was treated as a high example, suddenly it was useful.
When a cleaner treatment puts it lower, suddenly it's "unknown heavy, don't use it".
Can ya'll be consistent for 5 seconds?
If uncertainty deletes the Z-Sword, then uncertainty deletes basically the entire high pile.
Because the result is inconvenient. And only because it's inconvenient.
That's the double standard.
And the Book of Infinite Pages comparison is suspect.
The Z-Sword is not an abstract infinite/unknown magic weight object where physical interaction tells us nothing where going BY the statements, it's infinite, yet going by the feat portion, it's less. The exact opposite of what ya'll keep trying to push.
Regardless:
But the high side doesn't stop there.
It calcs them.
It calced the Z-Sword no less.
You don't get to calc unknown objects and intended mechanics when they inflate the verse and then ban calcing an unknown heavy object when it supports the lower chain.
Pick one.
- The Z-Sword absolutely belongs.
- It's explicitly about weight.
- It's plot relevant.
- Characters at different levels interact with it showing both thresholds at multiple stages.
It has direct ground interaction when dropped.
It was that VERY interaction the opposition was using as a counter for the OP.
That's much closer to LS than half the high pile as at least this time the actual intent is explicitly about LS.
The only reason people want to toss it now is because it stopped helping the high side.
When it was treated as a high example, suddenly it was useful.
When a cleaner treatment puts it lower, suddenly it's "unknown heavy, don't use it".
Can ya'll be consistent for 5 seconds?
If uncertainty deletes the Z-Sword, then uncertainty deletes basically the entire high pile.
- We do not know Tao's exact intended pillar mass.
- We do not know the exact intended boulder mass.
- We do not know the exact Namek rock scale (this one isn't even true, we get like 30+ shots of it and it's consistent the same ballpark).
- We do not know whether the building feat (Vegeta's portion, not fakebon) is static LS.
- We do not know how to convert lung force to normal LS (
actually I do, but it's so roundabout, niche, and involves absurd medical nuance there's straight up no way a normal person or even most of us would have been invoking it). - We do not know the ratio, if at all, TK scales to muscles.
Because the result is inconvenient. And only because it's inconvenient.
That's the double standard.
And the Book of Infinite Pages comparison is suspect.
The Z-Sword is not an abstract infinite/unknown magic weight object where physical interaction tells us nothing where going BY the statements, it's infinite, yet going by the feat portion, it's less. The exact opposite of what ya'll keep trying to push.
Regardless:
- It falls.
- It impacts the ground.
- It is handled by characters.
- It is struggled with.
- It is used in training.
- It is a physical object with physical effects.
- If the sword were absurdly heavier, going by the fancalcs and physics the impact would be absurdly worse.
But the high side doesn't stop there.
It calcs them.
It calced the Z-Sword no less.
You don't get to calc unknown objects and intended mechanics when they inflate the verse and then ban calcing an unknown heavy object when it supports the lower chain.
Pick one.
These are a few of the important concessions buried in the reply.
That concedes the high pile does not cohere internally, that key high feats fight each other, and that it isn't consistent.
That is not a minor issue.
That's the exact reason the high pile cannot be treated as the "norm".
This is just admission that the high evidence is incoherent while trying to drag the rest with it.
Still means the high scale is not the established norm either.
You can't use this line to burden-shift onto the direct chain while still arguing the high pile wins.
That matters because the high side's whole argument depends on the high pile being the broader, clearer, representative body.
If internal consistency is not required, then the high pile can't be used as a coherent LS standard either.
You can maybe argue Unknown (which isn't true, we do know, and have a canon fallback), but not "use the higher pile as the rating".
TK can be higher than physical LS, mechanically distinct from physical LS, and not equivalent to physical LS for scaling.
That already kills it as a normal LS anchor or feat here.
It's narrative guesswork stacked on top of a technique already conceded to be mechanically separate from physical LS.
It's gravity, weight lifting, giant bodies, dynamic throws, momentum, blunt force, ki, TK/pseudo-TK, etc. all being counted together.
That's exactly why it needs sorting.
That's too broad.
Every punch, jump, throw, beam clash, impact, and object break is a physical expression of strength if we define it that loosely.
That would collapse LS into general force/AP.
Good. That means context is conceded to matter.
Which is literally the point.
A shell used during running, swimming, milk delivery, field work, and all-day training is not the same thing as picking up a plate once.
A weighted outfit used during combat isn't the same thing as a clean deadlift.
Placement, duration, distribution, and activity type all explain why a smaller worn load can still be a meaningful burden despite a higher burst/carry/lift feat.
So this doesn't refute the chain.
It refutes the strawman that the chain requires:
It requires:
This concedes that situational context matters, so the soft caps and burden scenes still matter. And the manga gives the context anyway:
Those are different things, and the reply doesn't prove the high pile is accepted as the representative LS standard over the direct load chain.
This is the big one.
That concedes the high pile does not cohere internally, that key high feats fight each other, and that it isn't consistent.
That is not a minor issue.
That's the exact reason the high pile cannot be treated as the "norm".
That's not a defense of Class M/G.
This is just admission that the high evidence is incoherent while trying to drag the rest with it.
Still means the high scale is not the established norm either.
You can't use this line to burden-shift onto the direct chain while still arguing the high pile wins.
Even with the attempted "marginally" undermine, this concedes the lower chain is more internally self-consistent and the high pile is less so and messy.
That matters because the high side's whole argument depends on the high pile being the broader, clearer, representative body.
Then ya'll don't have a rating.
If internal consistency is not required, then the high pile can't be used as a coherent LS standard either.
You can maybe argue Unknown (which isn't true, we do know, and have a canon fallback), but not "use the higher pile as the rating".
Good. Then Cell's TK shouldn't be in the conventional physical LS pile.
TK can be higher than physical LS, mechanically distinct from physical LS, and not equivalent to physical LS for scaling.
That already kills it as a normal LS anchor or feat here.
Weak non-zero support is not a feat.
It's narrative guesswork stacked on top of a technique already conceded to be mechanically separate from physical LS.
This admits the "high pile" is not one mechanic.
It's gravity, weight lifting, giant bodies, dynamic throws, momentum, blunt force, ki, TK/pseudo-TK, etc. all being counted together.
That's exactly why it needs sorting.
This concedes the standard being used is basically "physical expression of strength".
That's too broad.
Every punch, jump, throw, beam clash, impact, and object break is a physical expression of strength if we define it that loosely.
That would collapse LS into general force/AP.
Good. That means context is conceded to matter.
Which is literally the point.
A shell used during running, swimming, milk delivery, field work, and all-day training is not the same thing as picking up a plate once.
A weighted outfit used during combat isn't the same thing as a clean deadlift.
Placement, duration, distribution, and activity type all explain why a smaller worn load can still be a meaningful burden despite a higher burst/carry/lift feat.
So this doesn't refute the chain.
It refutes the strawman that the chain requires:
- "20 kg shell = exact max lift".
It requires:
- "20 kg shell = meaningful burden at that stage".
This concedes that situational context matters, so the soft caps and burden scenes still matter. And the manga gives the context anyway:
- Goku's 115 kg clothing is meaningful at 1G, then under 10G the clothing alone becomes about 1,150 kg, and with Goku's bodyweight added the total burden is around 1.7 tons. He is badly hindered, removes the clothes, immediately does better, and Kaio tells him to put them back on because it makes the training more effective.
The key phrase is "if accepted".
Those are different things, and the reply doesn't prove the high pile is accepted as the representative LS standard over the direct load chain.
I don't think split/Unknown works as a compromise here either.
A split rating only makes sense when both sides describe clean, identifiable categories.
For example:
That isn't what's being proposed here. I'm assuming people mean "Rating A, possibly Rating B".
The proposed split is basically:
That's just leaving unsorted or far more conflicting material on the profile.
If the higher material can't be defined as one mechanic, one context, one form, one continuity, or one consistent LS standard, then there's nothing there to actually split.
It's not a real compromise to say:
Unknown has the same issue.
Unknown is for when the evidence is too unclear to rate.
But the direct chain isn't unclear.
The uncertainty is mostly coming from the attempted higher pile being messy.
That doesn't make the direct evidence unknown though.
It means the messy evidence should be sorted, caveated, or rejected.
So the options are not:
If it's TK, breath, momentum, giant-body weirdness, disputed scaling, object damage, or anything of the sort, then it gets separated or rejected as a normal LS anchor in face of the actual consistent throughline.
That isn't split.
That's just indexing the stat as the source pushes it.
A split rating only makes sense when both sides describe clean, identifiable categories.
For example:
- "this value applies to normal lifting, this other value applies to TK",
- "this value applies to casual physical LS, this other value applies to a specific transformed state",
- "this value applies to one continuity, this other value applies to another".
That isn't what's being proposed here. I'm assuming people mean "Rating A, possibly Rating B".
The proposed split is basically:
- "direct load chain as the low end, and then whatever higher material managed to last the debate as the high end".
That's just leaving unsorted or far more conflicting material on the profile.
If the higher material can't be defined as one mechanic, one context, one form, one continuity, or one consistent LS standard, then there's nothing there to actually split.
It's not a real compromise to say:
- "list the coherent chain, but also keep the incoherent leftovers as possibly higher".
Unknown has the same issue.
Unknown is for when the evidence is too unclear to rate.
But the direct chain isn't unclear.
The uncertainty is mostly coming from the attempted higher pile being messy.
That doesn't make the direct evidence unknown though.
It means the messy evidence should be sorted, caveated, or rejected.
So the options are not:
- "high rating",
- "split",
- or "Unknown".
- use the direct load chain and interconnected support as the rating framework,
- then evaluate any feat individually if they feat.
If it's TK, breath, momentum, giant-body weirdness, disputed scaling, object damage, or anything of the sort, then it gets separated or rejected as a normal LS anchor in face of the actual consistent throughline.
That isn't split.
That's just indexing the stat as the source pushes it.
This reply does not beat the OP.
It mostly does four things:
The high side gives:
That's a mixed pile.
The high side's method is basically:
But the high-feat pile doesn't cleanly win.
It's too broken to override the direct chain by sheer quantity.
It mostly does four things:
- Reframes the argument as "statements beat feats".
- Treats the current high rating as neutral when it isn't.
- Counts a mixed pile as one LS body while admitting the pile doesn't cohere.
- Falls back to Unknown/split when the high pile stops looking clean.
- Dragon Ball repeatedly uses a direct load/gravity/weight progression.
- 20 kg matters early.
- 40 kg becomes the next shell step.
- 115 kg weighted clothing affects performance.
- 10G cripples Goku.
- 100G becomes a major later step.
- 300G is explicitly explained as 18 tons.
- Gravity/bodyweight burdens land in the ton range.
- Buu Saga weights give direct 8/40 ton handling.
- Z-Sword sits in the same broad heavy-object struggle zone when treated honestly.
- Magetta is a direct 1,000-ton failed movement.
- Later characters can exceed earlier burdens.
The high side gives:
- early boulder/tree/car weirdness that contradicts itself,
- Yamcha failing to budge 170 tons,
- Post-Roshi high values but later effort with 116-ton Giant Piccolo,
- Tao jumping to hundreds of thousands of tons,
- Giant Piccolo far below Tao,
- Z-Sword becoming inconvenient when calced lower,
- Namek rock scaling issues,
- Cell being TK,
- Buu lung force not being normal LS,
- DBS building/momentum not being static lifting,
- Magetta still hard-stopping Vegeta,
- and random high calcs scattered around.
That's a mixed pile.
The high side's method is basically:
- calcs good when high,
- calcs bad when low,
- statements bad when inconvenient,
- direct load scenes are "decorative",
- giant-form physics strict when useful,
- Z-Sword physics too uncertain when low,
- TK counts until challenged,
- momentum counts until challenged,
- and quantity matters even when the counted feats are not comparable.
- If direct load scenes can be overridden, prove the high feats are direct, comparable, consistent, and representative.
- If uncertainty matters, apply it to the high calcs too.
- If mechanics matter, separate TK, momentum, breath, giant forms, jumps, throws, and object damage from conventional LS.
- If internal consistency matters, the high pile is cooked.
- If internal consistency doesn't matter, then the high pile can't be used as a rating either.
- The direct chain is still the only coherent LS framework the manga keeps building on.
But the high-feat pile doesn't cleanly win.
It's too broken to override the direct chain by sheer quantity.
I ain't gonna pretend every tiny support scene is a hard cap or its own tier.
But saying "27 vs 19", only works if one's side gets to count every lil thing while this side only counts a few hard caps and ignores all the repeated load scenes, gravity scenes, failed-movement scenes, training-weight scenes, and callbacks.
If we want to skip checking consistency, cohesion, intent, context, and more.
Same standard both ways.
If separate scenes/calcs count as separate support for the high side even if it's functionally the same thing (boulder), then separate weight scenes, gravity scenes, failed-movement scenes, training-weight scenes, and mechanic callbacks count here too.
This ain't "27 high feats vs 19 anti-feats".
It's 37 low/load/support entries vs a much smaller clean high pile once the evidence is actually sorted.
And if someone wants to inflate the count harder, we can. Rusty Gohan gravity and DBS Ch91 weighted clothing could be pushed into main implied-value points, some Z-Sword context could be split more, and we could start adding every minor low-end/object struggle too. I'm not doing that because I'm trying to keep the count fair.
The high side only wins on quantity if it counts every tiny high-looking thing while refusing to count the direct/repeated load evidence on this side.
You can easily flip it (this isn't even comprehensive mind you), the "quantity" argument flips.
My count, using the same general generosity they use:
It's 37 low/load/support entries (and counting, gonna add one every time I'm forced to spend time replying...)
If someone wants to count rusty Gohan gravity and DBS Ch91 Gohan's weighted clothing as "main" points, then it'd be 25 main / 6 support / 6 anti-high, still 37 total, I mean you can they're still giving us values implied as effective, just off-panel. But all the same, split is 23 / 8 / 6 given those two are support unless someone gives the exact weight/gravity.
Oh, and also I've been going through it. If the Daizenshuu is such a critical factor more reliable than even the manga and Toriyama. It has over 15 entries discussing gravity and burdens. Even clarifying a few things explicitly like Kaio's isn't just "10G", but that due to have roughly 10 times that of Earth's an effective place to train, no having a "Goku's growth of power!" section and discussing that there. Even elaborates on Kid Trunks showing in the chamber.there's also a few extra sus things but I'm working on that.
If it's so important and greater than the manga. (at least) 15 descriptions, extra info and explanations about it I'd wager is relevant.
Main valued / calculable chain points:
But saying "27 vs 19", only works if one's side gets to count every lil thing while this side only counts a few hard caps and ignores all the repeated load scenes, gravity scenes, failed-movement scenes, training-weight scenes, and callbacks.
If we want to skip checking consistency, cohesion, intent, context, and more.
Same standard both ways.
If separate scenes/calcs count as separate support for the high side even if it's functionally the same thing (boulder), then separate weight scenes, gravity scenes, failed-movement scenes, training-weight scenes, and mechanic callbacks count here too.
This ain't "27 high feats vs 19 anti-feats".
It's 37 low/load/support entries vs a much smaller clean high pile once the evidence is actually sorted.
And if someone wants to inflate the count harder, we can. Rusty Gohan gravity and DBS Ch91 weighted clothing could be pushed into main implied-value points, some Z-Sword context could be split more, and we could start adding every minor low-end/object struggle too. I'm not doing that because I'm trying to keep the count fair.
The high side only wins on quantity if it counts every tiny high-looking thing while refusing to count the direct/repeated load evidence on this side.
You can easily flip it (this isn't even comprehensive mind you), the "quantity" argument flips.
My count, using the same general generosity they use:
- Main valued / calculable load-chain data points: 23.
- Extra callbacks / mechanic confirmations: 8.
- Extra anti-high local checks: 6.
- Total low/load/support pool: 37.
- Clean high conventional LS anchors after sorting TK, breath, momentum, giant-form weirdness, disputed scaling, and flipped feats: maybe 10-12, being generous.
It's 37 low/load/support entries
If someone wants to count rusty Gohan gravity and DBS Ch91 Gohan's weighted clothing as "main" points, then it'd be 25 main / 6 support / 6 anti-high, still 37 total, I mean you can they're still giving us values implied as effective, just off-panel. But all the same, split is 23 / 8 / 6 given those two are support unless someone gives the exact weight/gravity.
Oh, and also I've been going through it. If the Daizenshuu is such a critical factor more reliable than even the manga and Toriyama. It has over 15 entries discussing gravity and burdens. Even clarifying a few things explicitly like Kaio's isn't just "10G", but that due to have roughly 10 times that of Earth's an effective place to train, no having a "Goku's growth of power!" section and discussing that there. Even elaborates on Kid Trunks showing in the chamber.
If it's so important and greater than the manga. (at least) 15 descriptions, extra info and explanations about it I'd wager is relevant.
Main valued / calculable chain points:
- 1. 20 kg shells - Goku and Krillin train with 20 kg shells. Not a max, but directly meaningful training load. The manga is already using physical burden as training pressure.
- 2. 40 kg shells - same shell training, doubled. Again not a max, but a new direct load step.
- 3. 211 kg Giran - Goku throws Giran, but not as a casual deadlift. It involves effort/motion/momentum. This supports "hundreds kg are effort-relevant", not "shells are meaningless".
- 4. ~115 kg weighted clothing - 23rd Budokai Goku/Piccolo. Low-hundreds kg worn load affects performance. Not a hard cap, but not nothing.
- 5. King Kai 10G body burden = 620 kg - Goku's 62 kg body under 10G becomes 620 kg. He is badly hindered at first.
- 6. King Kai 10G clothing burden = ~1.15t, total burden ~1.77t - old ~115 kg weighted clothes become ~1.15t under 10G. Removing them massively helps even though Goku's own 620 kg body burden remains. This directly shows the burden ratio/context.
- 7. Namek ship 20G = 1.24t - 62 kg x 20G = 1.24t. Goku starts above the King Kai baseline and handles it better, says based on the 10G + weight training he can handle this to start.
- 8. Namek ship 100G warning = 6.2t - 62 kg x 100G = 6.2t. Treated as dangerous before growth, not dust.
- 9. Namek ship 30G = 1.86t - 62 kg x 30G = 1.86t. Still low-ton training, still a step.
- 10. Dead Z-Fighters on King Kai = 0.33t-1.16t - Piccolo 1.16t, Tien 0.75t, Yamcha 0.68t, Chaozu 0.33t under 10G. Yamcha notes difficulty but they handle it better than pre-Kaio Goku, which is consistent, not a contradiction.
- 11. Namek ship 50G = 3.1t - 62 kg x 50G = 3.1t. Goku masters it as a midpoint with effort.
- 12. Namek ship 100G mastered = 6.2t - Namek-trip endpoint for direct gravity training.
- 13. Vegeta 300G = 16.8t-18t - 56 kg x 300G = 16.8t, while manga's 60 kg example gives 18t. This strains him greatly. Double-digit tons are directly relevant.
- 14. Buu Goku 8t usable - 2t per limb, 8t total, works in base. Direct training load.
- 15. Buu Goku below 40t in base - 10t per limb, 40t total, is too much for proper base movement. SSJ handles it easily. Hard base/SSJ split.
- 16. Buu Vegeta/Trunks 150G = 8.4t / 4.5t - Vegeta at 56 kg = 8.4t, Trunks at 30 kg = 4.5t. Base Trunks has trouble, SSJ Trunks handles it better. Single-digit/low-tens burden support, lines up relative to where they are power-wise in scaling to the other feats as well based on effort.
- 17. Z-Sword pull - Base Gohan fails to pull it free. SSJ Gohan pulls it with extreme effort/veins/exhaustion. If calced into hundreds of tons, that is still extreme effort, not casual. This is one Z-Sword pull data point.
- 18. Z-Sword dead weight, under/about 20t - Base Gohan can use it, but it is heavy/awkward. This is a separate scene from the pull. Buu Saga base tier can deal with less than 20t awkwardly.
- 19. BoG-ish / post-Buu-pre-God Goku drag weights = ~7t resistance - weights are under 17t, but dragging/friction makes effective resistance roughly ~7t. This is calc work, yes, but it is calc work on the exact same kind of thing the manga keeps pushing: training weights and physical resistance. Big difference between this and turning a throw/object-damage scene into LS. Plus the major opp "feats" are pushes too so, pick your poison.
- 20. U6 Vegeta vs Magetta = below 1,000t - Magetta is stated 1,000t, and Vegeta fails to lift/move him in that context. Hard stop.
- 21. Yuzun building lift / pull = ~900t-ish active LS feat - Yuzun is a Moro goon, can take a surprise blast from Vegeta when Vegeta ****** up holding back in base, and then he physically lifts / bodies a whole building/object with visible effort. Exact placement has unknowns, sure, but the action itself is an active LS-style feat with attention called to it like "he lifted the whole building". If we are counting calcs, then oops, this is exactly the kind of calc that falls into the same later chain instead of helping the insane high pile. It succeeds, but with effort, and lands around the same broad Magetta-ish lane rather than some wild Class G nonsense. Vegeta's portion is SS according to the manga's own SFX, not LS (not that it'd matter he's way past the chain's cap).
- 22. Berserker Kale vs Magetta = 1,000t with effort - Kale finally moves/lifts the same 1,000t Magetta with visible effort, and Krillin calls attention to the weight with the weight being part of the scene. Later cap-breaker, not anti-chain.
- 23. Daima Vegeta ~6t weights - people keep mentioning Daima, so here's a funny one.
- Vegeta training with weights that calc around 6t lines up stupidly well with the existing burden lane, especially with regression. Also, this is just gym-weight logic. Not tree scaling. Not TK. Not breath. Not momentum. Not giant-form weirdness. Just training weights. "we don't know how much they-", yeah same for most of the high-pile too, but calcs and inference goes both ways. Applying that logic as gospel is going to do more for the OP than the high-ends.
- S1. Raditz weighted clothing - Goku goes 334 > 416, Piccolo 322 > 408 after removing weights. Not a new weight value, but the same hundred-kg weighted-clothing mechanic still matters at PL 300-400 range.
- S2. Shin/Kibito Z-Sword context - not a separate Z-Sword value, but important context. Above-Freeza but below-Cell-ish characters do not casually bypass the Z-Sword issue. That helps place the Z-Sword lane. Not counting this as a whole new point though.
- S3. Namek Piccolo removes weights - after fusing with Nail, Piccolo removes his weights before fighting Freeza. Not a huge insane amp by then, but still enough of an edge that he bothers. Another callback to the mechanic.
- S4. Piccolo vs Gero - Piccolo removes weights before a serious fight. Unknown value, but another acknowledgement that the mechanic is still real and not fluff.
- S5. Piccolo vs 17 - Piccolo removes weights before fighting someone he is equal. Again unknown value, but another callback that this still matters.
- S6. ROSAT kid Goku 10G support = ~400 kg burden - Optional soft support, not counted in the 23 unless people want to count it: If using the ROSAT 10G statement, 15-year-old Goku being around 40 kg means his body burden would be around 400 kg. He lasted about a month but had to leave because he could not properly handle the place for training. Yes, ROSAT also has thin air and temperature swings, that's the only reason this is soft support, not a solid data point (though unless Goku can't handle 50 degrees I wouldn't be so sure, the air thinning obviously wasn't fatal given he still lasted awhile there and didn't asphyxiate in 30 minutes as one would if the oxygen threshold was below sufficient), so I'm not using this as a hard cap. But it lines up suspiciously well given this would have been in the time-skip post Demon King leading up to the Budokai, and thus acts as a higher end burden threshold for that time (in the same way Kaio's does, Goku can live there, but it really isn't easy), and thus acts as an in-between support value: above 211 kg Giran, below the later 1-ton King Kai burden, and right before the 23rd/Raditz/start-King-Kai lane. Basically an earlier King Kai's with a less huge burden. For the record this cuts out any of the "they need to adapt to Kai's" arguments, Goku already knew what 10G was like, the issue as the manga explains, would have been the weight at Kai's.
- S6. Planet Zoon / Pui Pui 10G - Vegeta does not care because he surpassed 10G ages ago, but Pui Pui expects 10G to matter. For Vegeta, 56 kg x 10G = 560 kg, so this is mechanic support, not a Vegeta cap.
- S7. Rusty Gohan gravity training - exact gravity setting unknown, so not a hard value. If using the old 300G reference with 61 kg Gohan, that would be 18.3t, which fits the gravity-load lane from what his power would be (Buu Saga, below his self when he got Ultimate... So above Android burden, around Z-Sword deadweight). Support, not hard cap.
- S8. DBS Ch91 Gohan weighted clothing - Piccolo gives weakened/rusty base Gohan weighted clothing and it hinders him. Unknown value, so no hard rating, but late Super still uses the mechanic.
- A1. Bulma car, sub-1t - Chapter 1 Goku gives extreme / vein-popping effort to a sub-1t car. Not main chain, but it guts the idea early DB visual object scenes are cleanly huge. If nearby object calcs are higher, early DB is already locally messy.
- A2. Yamcha castle/object showing - Yamcha can't meaningfully budge/shift a much lower object. If he scales to the high early pile, which he would to some degree, this should not happen, even way below dead weight is enough to shift it, a few ton shimmy he can't even do.
- A3. Giant Piccolo - caveated hard. If strict physics, larger muscles / squared cross-section / altered body mechanics also matter. If author intuition, 10x bigger may just mean ~10x heavier, putting him near the low-ton range. Either way, not clean normal-form external LS. If applying the physics in full, proportional 100x LS jump too which undercuts anything. Also, DB itself already makes "bigger muscles/more power but worse speed" messy with Grade 3. Trunks gets way more power/muscle, but the added bulk still costs speed relative to what the form is trying to do. Obviously he's not literally struggling to carry his own muscle mass like a backpack, but it proves DB doesn't treat body mass, muscle gain, power, and speed as some universal conversion. So acting like Giant Piccolo or Oozaru is a straightforward "scale this mass to base LS", is already suspect.
- A4. Oozaru - worse than Giant Piccolo. Giant-body mechanics + 10x ki boost + no 10x speed boost (which is bad, tells us the LS even with the Ki and body mechanics isn't consistent internally going by physics, see Piccolo section) + terrible size/art consistency. Not a clean deadlift or normal-form LS anchor.
- A5. Buu breath - breath/ki/body-pressure output, not hand LS. If this counts as LS because "physical expression of strength", then punches, blasts, shockwaves, and AP sneak into LS too.
- A6. Granolah / Cell TK context - not a new main chain point,
I'm just being mean. This is anti-high TK context. Granolah has TK and rips a building from its foundation with some effort, but the value is massively lower than the Cell TK value people want to use. That's iffy for the high side if they want TK/object-moving stuff in the pile even as a maybe.
The manga barely has any calcable high TK/object-moving examples, as it is, it's legit just these two, and one of the later ones from a character astronomically above Cell is way lower and still effortful. Not even pile vs. pile, it's 1 vs 1.
So if Cell TK gets used as high support, then Granolah's later TK building-rip contests the idea that manga TK/object-moving forms some clean high ladder. This isn't even normal physical LS anyway. Worst case, if ya'll insist on piling TK/object-moving feats anyway, Granolah makes that tiny pile look inconsistent as hell. Personally I don't quite care for this "anti-feat", I'd even ignore it if we're being fair, but quantity matters I suppose, take this as an example of how bad it could truly be.
- Main valued/calculable load-chain points: 23.
- Supporting callbacks/mechanic confirmations: 8.
- Extra anti-high local checks: 6.
- Total low/load/support side: 37.
- Clean high conventional LS side after sorting: maybe 10-12 at best.
The point here obviously isn't "20 kg tier", "40 kg tier", "115 kg tier", etc.
Those are support values showing what the manga treats as meaningful load.
The actual ratings should be based on the best bracket each era has, using the direct load scenes as caps/support/floors depending on context.
Short map:
Those are support values showing what the manga treats as meaningful load.
The actual ratings should be based on the best bracket each era has, using the direct load scenes as caps/support/floors depending on context.
Short map:
- Early DB Goku/Krillin = hundreds of kg effort-relevant.
- 23rd/Raditz/start-King-Kai = low-ton burden still a real hindrance.
- Saiyan Saga dead Z-Fighters = 0.33t-1.16t burdens still matter.
- Namek-trip Goku = low tons up to 6.2t.
- Android Saga Vegeta = 16.8t-18t serious strain.
- Lower Buu / above-Freeza support = single-digit semi-casual, low-tens tons still matter.
- Buu Saga base high tiers = high-teens/~20t usable/heavy, below 40t.
- Buu Saga SSJ tier = 40t easy, hundreds only with extreme effort.
- Post-Buu/pre-God base Goku = ~7t drag resistance still useful training though casual.
- U6 Vegeta = below 1,000t in that context.
- Yuzun/Moro-goon lane = ~800-900t-ish with effort/placement caveats.
- Berserker Kale / above-Magetta = 1,000t with some visible effort.
- Rusty/weakened late Gohan = same mechanics still matter, no clean new cap, would line with Buu Saga bases though.
- Daima/regressed Vegeta = ~6t training-rep sets (we can ignore this for the manga, just putting this out there given someone mentioned Daima effecting the manga).
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No it's not. If accepted is directly talking about if a calc is accepted or not.
A valid calc
What is this point even about? Is there a non-math based calc out there?
Accepted by a cal group member. Since they have multiple calcs in the Class 100 and Class K range they're not one offs
All the calcs about LS do indeed represent LS
If there's more of them, yes.
SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
VS Battles
Administrator
Human Resources
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Will note that atm it seems some of Split is arguing for Class M, not Class 100-K. Not a counterargument or anything but just want to make sure what side of Split you're on before I start rallying the (seemingly) final votes.
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I've always been against the Class M ratings. The two calced are either bad or an outlier and the Frieza one has notable issues with it's assumptions. So my view is that they max out as Class K for their split rating.
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I suppose this makes sense... just kinda pushes it to the side, then make me full agree only in that case
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And this right here is exactly the dodge I was talking about.
You clipped the checklist into isolated one-liners, answered the worst possible version of each, and skipped the actual points being made, which I know you did because you most certainly didn't read even a fraction of that in full, it's been like 5 seconds dude, come on. Not every point is secluded in your lil section I was tempted not to even comment on to begin with.
Though, I guess it needs a bastardized tldr that specific point.
"Accepted" was never being questioned as in:
- "did a cgmapprove the math?"
- accepted as what?
You know this. We've discussed this before even.
A calc can be accepted and still be:
- wrong mechanic for the stat,
- a one-off,
- not scalable,
- contradicted by direct caps,
- not representative,
- not conventional physical LS,
- an outlier,
- or just not good enough to override better evidence.
That only proves the arithmetic passed
It does not prove the feat is a good LS anchor.
It does not prove it scales.
It does not prove it overrides direct stated-mass failures.
It does not prove a pile of mixed mechanics becomes one rating.
Same with:
- "All the calcs about LS do indeed represent LS"
Either way, the whole dispute is whether they actually represent conventional LS well enough to define the rating.
Momentum? TK? Breathing? Not how this works.
Giant-form self-movement? Not even a normal load dude.
Object deformation ain't automatically carrying/pushing/pulling strength. Hell we even have a thread going on about the complexities of that as we speak, you know that isn't straightforward.
Why handwave all of that as "they're LS calcs", when the entire argument is that the pile needs to be sorted by mechanic, context, and usage.?
And:
- "If there's more of them, yes".
That's the exact method being criticized in the first place, that's already conceded as inconsistent and messy.
More bad or mixed evidence doesn't overturn fewer direct pieces of evidence. Especially if it isn't even "fewer". At what point is the line crossed?
Ten mixed incoherent, contradictory, nonsensical, roundabout feats and disputed scaling don't override that same thing being repeated multiple times, if that were the case I can think of dozens of profiles that would be different, DBZ ain't a special exception. None of them, you have to analyze this stuff within its own context, which you're refusing to do.
Quantity only matters after the evidence is comparable.
If the feats aren't the same kind of evidence, the count is padded.
If we count this way, I can count every weighted-clothing scene, every gravity scene, every training load, every failed movement, every cap-breaker, every callback, and every low local object showing, and the quantity argument flips instantly. And behold, look what happened.
But that still wouldn't be the real issue. The real issue is evidence quality and actually analyzing stuff proper.
You didn't refute anything here, you simply proved it.
"Accepted" still needs qualifiers:
- accepted math?
- accepted scaling?
- accepted conventional physical LS?
- accepted as representative?
- accepted as overriding direct load caps?
- accepted as consistent?
You skipped literally every step after "calc accepted". If that was all that mattered we wouldn't even be having this discussion and there wuldn't be a bunch of staff who disagree with that notion either.
Though having typed this I realized evidently I wasn't as clear enough before, so...
A calc being accepted math wise doesn't mean it's accepted elsewhere or at every step for usability. As in "accepted as math" doesn't mean "accepted as usable or-".
And they have dozens of stuff below that.
And they are whether or not you agree, Class K feat with casual output in Chapter 3 and high effort Class K feat in chapter 185 in completely different contexts, are one offs. They're not connected, they're not related, half the time they're overtly complex.
About 5 aren't actually LS feats if you go check the manga, but it would seem we need to recalc everything at this point.
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@DarkDragonMedeus @Vietthai96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Armorchompy @Planck69 @SomebodyData @Damage3245 @KingTempest
Can I get your input for the final vote. I just need to know if you're keeping your position or list which end you'd prefer if you're fine with multiple.
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To clarify, my point was moreso that I can agree with just a "likely higher" acknowledging that they may be have higher scaling than what's presented in OP, rather than "Likely Class K/M/whatever the rating the calcs are". I still fundamentally agree with the OP's ends.
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I still keeping my stance, though i can get behind with listing LS as At least X class, likely Y class
Eden_Warlock99
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Btw there's another Class M calc (I think the two you're referring to ae Blue and Tao, right?) for Great Ape Goku.
SomebodyData
Waiting for Walpurgisnacht Rising and Metroid 6...
VS Battles
Administrator
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I'll stay as an Agree for the time being, though if we had to compromise, I wouldn't disagree with Planck's solution.
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I agree with the OP
In fact I vehemently disagree with a combo option or any unknown or a compromise
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Actually best case for that when factoring in squaring would drop it by a factor of 100. So it would legit be Class K at maximum.
ALSO
The General Blue phone booth calc is super inflated. Like, badly. Not even some tiny nitpick with the final multiplication. The math from the actual inputs is more or less ok, but the inputs themselves are just not usable as is.
The blog uses this beam-bending formula:
- F = 4 * yield strength * plastic section modulus / length
For a solid rectangular cross-section:
- Z = b * h^2 / 4
This is what happens:
- Panel width = 0.7778908345726097
- Panel height = 2.0225734098324625
- Z = 0.7778908345726097 * 2.0225734098324625^2 / 4 = 0.7955495784725014 m^3
Then blog itself uses 14 gauge steel. 14 gauge sheet steel is not a 2-meter-thick steel block. It is about:
- 14 gauge thickness = 0.00190
Using the blog's own formula, yield strength, and pixel scaling, but with the actual thin-sheet thickness:
- Yield strength = 393001165.71 Pa
- Panel width = 0.7778908345726097
- Panel height = 2.0225734098324625
- Thickness = 0.00190
- Z = panel height * thickness^2 / 4
- Z = 2.0225734098324625 * 0.00190^2 / 4 = 0.0000018253725023737974 m^3
- F = 4 * 393001165.71 * 0.0000018253725023737974 / 0.7778908345726097 = 3688.813336807203 N
- x4 = 14755.25334722881 N
- tons= 14755.25334722881 / 9806.65 = 1.5046171064766064 tons-force
- Z = panel width * thickness^2 / 4
- Z = 0.7778908345726097 * 0.00190^2 / 4 = 0.0000007020464782017803 m^3
- F = 4 * 393001165.71 * 0.0000007020464782017803 / 2.0225734098324625 = 545.651560481563 N
- F x4 = 2182.606241926252 N
- 2182.606241926252 / 9806.65 = 0.22256389714390256 tons-force
- Og = 252206.399510117 tons-force
- Thin-sheet side-bending result = 1.5046171064766064 tons-force
- Thin-sheet same-span result = 0.22256389714390256 tons-force
167621.648341294x to 1133186.4814851286x
So no, this ain't a legit Class M feat. Infact, let's add it to the OP. It only gets that high because the calc effectively turns a sheet-metal phone booth into a solid steel chunk.
The feat is Blue crushing/bending thin sheet metal and booth. That may still be superhuman, obviously, in fact you can def squeeze a lil bit extra out of it using some better metal, work, and real contact area stuff (then again pretty sure some of that is hollow sheets too), but not even remotely in the same universe as the blog's value.
Eden_Warlock99
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We talked about how the Blue calc needs a rework like a page or two ago
I don't get the problem with the Great Ape feat though, like what do you mean by "factoring in squaring"?
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I just dislike your checklist. It's asking questions that my answers never put forward and I was always up front about when asked.
I only read and addressed the section talking about me. The rest of your post I still have to go through, but wanted to clarify the stance your were asking me about.
I mean, just don't then. You have a bad tendency to post massive walls of text for minor points, drag things out, and repeat information ad-nauseam. The fact you wrote all of this trying to break down a statement as simple as "We use accepted calcs that are consistent with each other" shows that your incapable of seeing what I'm talking about.
It doesn't, but nothing is stopping you from posting I guess.
We have, and I agree with three calcs not being usable because the assumptions are off or their outliers. That doesn't make the other calcs not usable.
It does prove that we have multiple independent scenes that get numbers consistent with each other. Which means they're usable statistics.
I think they are. It's why I disagree with M3X. But I acknowledge that in terms of narrative consistentcy the statements should be mentioned within the profiles.
Those are all valid LS methods that the wiki and other franchises use. While they can be outliers or unusable for a variety of reasons, that doesn't mean they default to being unusable.
Because I disagree with M3X. To me they're all valid since they're accepted. If they shouldn't be valid the calcs either need to have a CGM or CRT to remove them and the rating should be analyzed within the context of the series. It's why I wouldn't be okay with every LS calc being used, but there's still mostly usable from my perspective.
If it proves consistentcy to your point it's great to have that information. So if you want to do 50 calca for the various lifting feats to help establish standards I'd be all for it.
I'm not treating Dragon Ball any different than any of the other franchises I'm semi-involved in. I've done speed and calc spreads for Cyberpunk, revised multiple Superman profiles to our standards, and helped do most of the D&D stuff. I'm analyzing Dragon Ball from how I think the wiki analyzes feats in general for works.
You're also just misrepresenting my character here. If I refused to analyze DB and just accepted it at face value I wouldn't have altered my stance, acknowledge other arguments, and I wouldn't be as strict about the various Tier 1 ratings for the franchise.
If you have the free time to do so, then sure. You can make a seperate CRT arguing this point.
You not accepting my answers does not mean I didn't respond to your points.
The math is accepted by a CGM so the feat is deemed as usable for the profiles, the accepted value has to be the one with the most general support, LS is LS in most cases since its a split off rating, the wiki will ignore load caps if the showings have them be better, and inconsistent calcs shouldn't be used.
If it was this straightforward you wouldn't have a near equal number of stuff against it or for a mixed rating.
They're not one offs. A one off showing is one with nothing similar to it in the work or one with a notable difference compared to other showings. They may be seperated, but they're both Class K calcs and therefore aren't one offs.
Sure. Let me know if you need help.
If you feel obligated to respond, I'd ask to keep the word count low because this is the third CRT where we're running into post length issues.
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Dude that isn't bad, thousands of times off.
It's literally support for the OP now
What are the Class M feats? Tao? Oozaru?
Then what? Stuff in Super where they should be Class M?
TK? That obviously doesn't scale, in fact it blatantly upscales the standard conventional LS. Z-Sword? OP support. Magetta? Well he's Class M but not in the way you want.
Honest question, how much would be enough? At what point do we go "ok maybe there's a problem".
Also I explained what I meant. I'm not doing it again unless required.
Eden_Warlock99
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I think you misread my post? I said that we aren't counting the Blue feat cause @KLOL506 said there were issues with it.
I thought you also said the Great Ape feat had a math issue, but Ig it doesn't?
Anyway "Where are the other Class M feats"
Great Ape Gohan's 300ton boulder throw doesn't have a calc rn, neither does Miniku pushing back that Megath's arm either.
I see you also managed to get the EXCELSUS slam to almost x10,000 its actual weight, so I don't doubt the Giant Piccolo slam would also get something in this range too.
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Thanks. Current votes then:
Main
- Agree (6): Somebody, Damage, KT, Dale, Planck, Armor
- Disagree (4), DDM, Viet, Qaws, Lephy
- Split (6): Viet, Qaws, DDM, Armor, Lephy, Godernet
- Likely Higher (2): Planck, Somebody
@M3X_2.0 I say Friday afternoon is the cutoff since it'll give everyone time to read through the final posts. If no one else responds to change the current majority vote of 5-4, I say that the OP is approved of and we apply your LS downgrades to the DB manga canon.
Also I forgot @Nierre sorry about that. Could you clarify your stance? Is it still neutral/split/higher or are you pro/con with the OP?
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GodlyCharmander
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Twenty seven, not ten. And in fact, they do override the specific type of evidence you're brining up because it immediately puts into question if the numbers used, repeatedly or not, were even inserted in any coherent way, they were not.
Even if you do the most pitiful, least possible value from each and every one of those feats, if you appeal to common sense, the way someone would see the feat and immediately know the "stated" limitations of these characters are completely incompatible with their performance, even if you appealed to only that, the results would still dwarf the limitations several hundred fold AT LEAST.
You keep announcing, pretending, and utterly insisting that these feats NEED to have some sort of coherent connection, that they're being offered as a end-all be-all alternative to the stated values and limitations, they are most certainly not. That's not even the main argument, in a million years. No, what these high pile proves is that the numbers you so claim to be consistent because they call back to themselves crumble if seen through, literally, any reasonable lenses. Any performance of characters, in EACH AND EVERY FEAT that isn't directly attached to a stated value dwarfs the gravity, lifting strength bullshit.
And you refuse to engage on the "why that is' part of the argument too, is it because Toriyama didn't have a semblance of notion about what these numbers entail? The Piccolo example surely indicates that this is the case. And you keep talking about body mechanics, and that Piccolo should've been able to move regardless if his original size's Lifting Strength was capable of it or not, but, first of all, Goku was able to full-swing Piccolo's entire mass a full 180º in presumably a short timeframe. I'm pretty sure you'd be able to calculate that into Class M easily. And secondly, you're just objectively wrong. It doesn't matter if his muscles get bigger, it is directly stated, verbatim, that his power level doesn't increase, the singular, most definitive measurement of physical prowess doesn't move an inch to compensate for the extra mass, each movement generates the same amount of energy from his muscles, it doesn't scale up. That is a valid feat no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.
The whole composition of the argument is to point out how the stated values are often disrespected by the author's VERY WRITING and notion on what these characters are actually, mechanically, capable of, outside of these values stated just for the sake of sounding impressive. Yet you dedicate about 80% of your entire energy when addressing this "high pile" as being "incoherent", or "not consistent between one another', acting like that's an requirement to reach the conclusion we reached, it is not, and any attempt of showing how disconnected the feats are to each other is irrelevant because it doesn't relate in any way, shape or capacity to the composition of the argument, we literally don't need these feats to respect each other, it's the fact they exist that's the problem for your stance, Chariot.
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I am keeping my stance, but the split/Superhuman ratings is my secondary approach.
Qurbonboev
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Could you (or any other db sup) please list again notable LS feats in series that heavily contradicts proposed LS caps (reminder, Goku lifting 5 tonnes after struggling with 2 tonnes of weighted clothing doesn't contradicts each other)? Others already posted such lists, but some of calcs in there were debunked*, so filtering them would make it easier for staff to evaluate them against 22 antifeats easier (19 antifeats and statements in OP + Z sword + Yamcha failing to budge 170 tonn building + Goku jumping only by several meters on Kaoi planet, which also strengthens the idea that it's purely lack of LS that makes it hard for combatants to fight and move in higher gravity).
*Someone should make blogpost with fixed versions of debunked calcs
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I am currently still in agreement with the OP.
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Compromise or OP are both fine, as long as the compromise includes the lower ratings. So something like "Class 5 (Was able to lift two tons), possibly higher" or an "At least/possibly" split acknowledging both lower and higher ends. I certainly disagree with an Unknown/Superhuman rating, I think that's just pretending that there aren't LS antifeats like we're embarrassed about it or something.
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Eden_Warlock99
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Proposed Cap #1
LS feats above the cap by a fair bit:
- Big boulder (156 Tons)
- Cloud jump (230 Tons)
- Krillin flips giant guy (Doesn't have a calc rn, but it's >23 Tons)
- Bora toss (Doesn't have a calc rn, but it's >118 Tons)
- Goku stops missile (Doesn't have a calc rn, but it's around 110 Tons)
- Goku flips another giant guy (Doesn't have a calc rn, but it's >116 Tons)
- Another big boulder (300 Tons)
- Castle throw (65K Tons)
- Tao thing (530K Tons)
Proposed Cap #2
The Daima section here, remember the main plot of Daima is that Gomah turned them small to make them weaker than when they defeated Buu.
Also another thing I don't get is how Pilaf Saga Yamcha being unable to budge a 180 Ton castle piece is relevant? This guy is WEAKER than the Goku that maxes out at like 4 Tons. Like it is an anti-feat for Pilaf goons being Class K, but no one is saying they're that high lol
Qurbonboev
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These clouds look like cumulus ones to me. Using accepted average height for them on site would downgrade feat to 100 tonnes. Otherwise good.
Only objection I can muster is that Japanese media are bad with calculating weight. So there is big possibility that Toriyama didn't intended for that guy to be 23 tons. Otherwise good
Didn't this 8-C throw (aviation bomb level) caused at most 9-B level of damage. Shouldn't be it invalidated at this basis alone.
Other calcs are good
Ok. So only 21 anti-feats.
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Compromise is "Stated rating, likely/possibly Calced rating". The statements are always taken as the base value.
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neutral I suppose
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Proper friction guts it some.
Cloud jump is funny, ya'll know they start on a plateau at around cloud level right?
The flip calcs bad, being generous with the weight just to show
- 116 kg * 10^3 = 116,000 kg
- 116,000 kg = 116 metric tons
So a partial swing/torque feat don't make it higher. Without a timeframe, the peak static equivalent is still just Piccolo’s weight. Average force through the partial arc is lower, around 74-104 tons-force depending the angle.
- avg = 116 * sin(1.5707963268) / 1.5707963268 = 73.84789359463944 tons-force
Tao shit is just breaking KE rules. Most of the big calcs are bafflingly incoherent, like rock friction for soil? Stone frag for dirt? Hell it doesn't even extend to just DB calcs, there's problems all throughout each canon, like the mini-planet’s diameter ratio against Earth, then divides Earth’s mass by that linear ratio only:
- Earth mass / 15.5384615
- 15.5384615^3
- New per planet = 5.97219e24 / 15.5384615^3
So many of these calcs are just generally bad, hyper inflated, straight up wrong unit conversions, the majority when fixed drop whole magnitudes. After checking through shit last night the ONLY real Class M calc is Tao ffs, even shit like Namek Saga Goku's rock crush drops to below Class K when fixed, like 98t an that ain't even a real feat.
Except the 4 ton feat is also a Class K feat (and one of the very few in fact), why cherry-pick portions of the feat? And Yamcha failing to budge is sub-Class 5. Also don't inflate shit, the 180 ton castle is wrong, it's roof popped off, removing that from the deadweight drops to around a flat 100, simply tilting it on its axis for Bulma to get out would only be half that, simply shimmying it would be far, far, less.
If you don't know how the math works, stop asserting all these things as fact. Anyway me and the boys are trying to fix the mess currently anyway, already gone through several of the supposed feats for recalcs.
Edit: Because I'm feeling a lil mean
Here is just a FEW that are problematic
1. General Blue phone booth
Problem here treated a thin/framed phone booth wall like a solid steel slab. As above, it's only a few hundred kilos or so, maybe a tad higher.
Drops about 167,622x to 1,133,186x lower.
2. Goku "stone shear"
Old is 1014.1306 tons-force
Problem though, Goku don't shear rock. He pushes a boulder loose from dirt.
Drops about 1201x lower even against harsh sand-like rolling resistance; over 10,000x lower against dry dirt.
3. Big Roshi boulder push, if pushing boulder on dirt
old is about 156.27 tons-force
Fixed with sandstone density + dirt resistance:
Drops about 1.6x to 7.9x lower depending end.
4. Small/pre-Roshi boulder push, same dirt/stone fix
Old current-blog-ish value is about 1.1069 tons-force
Page listed value has it 12.255 tons, but that don't even match current blog.
Fixed with sandstone density + dirt stuff
0.1727 to 0.6018 tons-force drop, give or take
5. Yuzun building throw
Literally already recalced, it's Class K for a upper dude.
6. King Kai giant weight pull, this one ain't even the manga but it got stuff too.
Old is 55,509.471 tons-force
Fixed using proper friction logic drops it to 29,122.7104 tons-force
about 1.91x lower.
7. Pretty Black Hole
Old: 1,553,395,000 tons-force
This one is ****** in the opposite direction, without incorrectly multiplying the attack/compression by 10g: 155,339,471.79 tons-force
10g should apply to Goku/gravity context, not multiply the attack compression force.
10x diff
8. DBH/Xenoverse mini-planet calc
as above
about 241.44x lower.
9. "I'm an idioooot" boulder push (idk that's the blog title)
Old: 17.9956 tons-force
Corrected metric using his own sliding method 16.3309 tons-force, but that's being generous, after applying proper friction and pushing values you're looking at a swing between like 0.742 to 8.905 tons-force
Problem: too, short-ton-ish conversion issue went wrong, and honestly wrong friction model, it's liable to drop over 24x down to like 700kg.
10. Tao Pai Pai pillar throw
This just has messed up units, wrong g/unit conversion; also inconsistent pillar masses.
when fixed it's like 1.18x lower.
11. Goku lifting things for Gohan
Thinking on it these actually support the ratings hmm.
12. Great Green Giant
Old: 12.0482319 tons
Fixed: 10.9299721 metric tons
Problem: short tons listed instead of metric.
Also lil odd Giant Piccolo is drawn hyper inconsistently where some panels just have him way less. Even that has issues though.
1.3 Tao jump while grenade frozen
Old 17,987,830 tons-force
Fixed same-premise value is 8,993,913 tons-force
Problem is the used v/t after deriving t = d/v, giving v^2/d instead of correct v^2/(2d), ignore the fact it completely breaks KE rules and stuff, it's still 2x lower.
There's so many that are just outright wrong. This ain't even a fraction of them either. On god you may be looking at 5 total above Class K once everything is corrected whether it's context, mechanics, or just proper values.
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What friction coefficients are you using for soil/ dirt?
- 19,725
- 21,171
"What dirt coefficient?" is the problem with half these ngl, it depends entirely on which feat we're even talking about. Like, let's start with the early Chapter 3 one given that's the first big one.
Already a big problem with some of these calcs, would be that there is no single universal "dirt friction" value you slap onto every scene. Packed dirt, loose dirt, humid dirt, mud, sand-like ground, rock-on-dirt, rock-in-dirt, and a boulder rolling out of a shallow edge are all different mechanics, even the GEOMETRY, shapes, leverage, angles, and more matter.
The method changes with the scene.
If it sliding:
- F = ma + mumg
If it rolling:
- F = ma + Crrmg
- F = W * sqrt(2Rh - h^2) / (R - h)
And even that still depends on where the force is applied. For example, it isn't just "horizontal sliding". He's doing a full-body upward-angled push from around mid-down from the top, at roughly a 70-degree angle. That changes the leverage/rotation too. Treating that the same as dragging a flat block across stone is outright just wrong. Which also matters, what TYPE of material is this? That effects how it interacts with others.
The coefficient depends on the specific ground condition and the contact mechanics. Some scenes are packed dirt. Some are loose dirt. Some are rock against dirt. Some are rolling. Some involve the boulder coming out of dirt. Some involve an angled push causing rotation.
The "stone shear" calc is the most blatant. It used:
- Force = 8,000,000 Pa * 1.2431530327839 m^2
- Force = 9,945,224.2622712 N = 1014.1306421939398 tons-force
- F = Crrm*g
- m = 2815.23371630436 kg
- mg = 27608.011723996147 N
- F = 0.30 * 27608.011723996147 = 8282.403517198843 N
So that calc goes from 1014 tons-force due to outright wrong assumptions, to under 1 ton-force.
And that's just some, some have wrong context, are simplified just for the increase while ignoring the other mechanics that would gut, some ain't even real.
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