Ninjago and the Land of NPI

[Lloydblitzed]

This thread is basically to add and upscale certain NPIs lvl to every Elemental Masters and Source Dragons in the show, such as NPI for Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 and Abstract Existence Type 1. This blog contains a detailed explanation of everything regarding the subject, but since rules wants us to add scans to the OP, here they are:

Spoiler: The Argument from the blog

Baseline: As explained in detail here, the Balance acts as a fundamental aspect and concept of the 17 Realms, representing a balance between the Light and the Dark in the 17 Realms. All of this should warrant a baseline Abstract Existence (Type 1).

• NOTE: The Balance also govern Prime Empire, the realm embodied by Unagami, meaning the Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Data Manipulation abilities granted both the Balance itself and its connection to Prime Empire are affected by those layer

1st layer: Dark Matter is composed of pure concentrated evil itself, which can interact with the Balance between Light and Dark itself and affect it, making it an abstract substance and putting it on a higher fundamental level. Elemental Masters can interact with pure Dark Matter and even clear of its effects thanks to the fact they possess Elemental Energy. Elemental Masters such as Zane, Kai and Lloyd were all shown to be capable of interacting directly with Overlord's power, who govern the Balance as whole is the source of and embodies evil itself and does not face consequences after destroying one side of the Balance. Golden Power should also scale to this as its shown to be able to comparable to Overlord's powers, as shown when both FSM and Overlord were equally matched

2nd layer: Acting as the source of all Elemental Powers, including the First Spinjitzu's Golden Power, and possessing the strongest power in the verse, capable of damaging the Balance of Elemental Powers by cutting off their powers to the Realms, the Source Dragons in their true forms along with their powers should possess a superior abstract existence to that of the Overlord's. This also affect Chaos, who is shown to be capable of rivaling Focus, a Source Dragon power

To summarize: Source Dragon Power's AE1c > Overlord's AE1/Golden Power's AE1/CM1/Info2 Manip/Data Manip > Balance AE1/CM1/Info2 Manip/Data Manip

Agree: @Planck69 (Baseline) @ActuallySpaceMan42 (Same as Planck)
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Planck69]

I can maybe see NPI but none of these are layers. You would have to show that say, people who can interact with Balance cannot interact with Dark Matter. Then others who interact with Dark Matter would have a layer.

So all of this is just baseline NPI.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I can maybe see NPI but none of these are layers. You would have to show that say, people who can interact with Balance cannot interact with Dark Matter. Then others who interact with Dark Matter would have a layer.

So all of this is just baseline NPI.

Well the Overlord governs the Balance itself which should inherently make him superior aspect to it. As for the Source Dragons, EMs, who can interact with Dark Matter, cannot interact with the Temple Spirit, while Source Dragon energy from a Dragon Icon can

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It looked like a close dodge or a miss ngl, not intangibility.

Also bit off topic, is that your YT account?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It looked like a close dodge or a miss ngl, not intangibility.

In another shot we can see him phasing throught them more clearly

Also bit off topic, is that your YT account?

Ye

 

[VladimirMakarov317]

I can maybe see NPI but none of these are layers. You would have to show that say, people who can interact with Balance cannot interact with Dark Matter. Then others who interact with Dark Matter would have a layer.

So all of this is just baseline NPI.

It's just like DMC souls where they are considered more abstract than CM1/Info2 for governing them and being unaffected by their destruction. Concept of Evil is no different as Overlord directly govern the Balance which is CM1 and Info2 and being unaffected by their destruction

 

[Apotheosis69]

So its Abstract Existence OF Information (Type 2), Concept (Type 1) and Data?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

So its Abstract Existence OF Information (Type 2), Concept (Type 1) and Data?

Ye

 

[VladimirMakarov317]

I can maybe see NPI but none of these are layers. You would have to show that say, people who can interact with Balance cannot interact with Dark Matter. Then others who interact with Dark Matter would have a layer.

So all of this is just baseline NPI.

bump

 

[Planck69]

It's just like DMC souls where they are considered more abstract than CM1/Info2 for governing them and being unaffected by their destruction. Concept of Evil is no different as Overlord directly govern the Balance which is CM1 and Info2 and being unaffected by their destruction

My stance remains the same. This isn't DMC, and with what is presented, this is just baseline NPI.

 

[AigerTheKing]

My stance remains the same. This isn't DMC, and with what is presented, this is just baseline NPI.

As for the Source Dragons, EMs, who can interact with Dark Matter, cannot interact with the Temple Spirit, while Source Dragon energy from a Dragon Icon can

What about this? Also, the Source Dragons needs Mortal Form for people in the Realms (even Elemental Masters) to interact with them, as they cannot interact with their true forms, so wouldn't this grant a layer

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

DMC relies on actual ontological heirarchy of metaphysical aspects. This is completely different from OP.

 

[Planck69]

What about this? Also, the Source Dragons needs Mortal Form for people in the Realms (even Elemental Masters) to interact with them, as they cannot interact with their true forms, so wouldn't this grant a layer

Interact there is used pretty clearly in the mundane sense, though.

 

[VladimirMakarov317]

My stance remains the same. This isn't DMC, and with what is presented, this is just baseline NPI.

DMC relies on actual ontological heirarchy of metaphysical aspects. This is completely different from OP.

In this scan, it is stated whenever there is light, there is shadow and within shadow, there is darkness. Overlord is the blackest of darkness. Which means the concept of evil is beyond the concept of shadow

Not only that, he is unaffected by the destruction from both concepts

 

[YmTheSuper]

Dark Matter is composed of pure concentrated evil itself, which can interact with the Balance between Light and Dark itself and affect it, making it an abstract substance and putting it on a higher fundamental level. Elemental Masters can interact with pure Dark Matter and even clear of its effects thanks to the fact they possess Elemental Energy. Elemental Masters such as Zane, Kai and Lloyd were all shown to be capable of interacting directly with Overlord's power

Dark matter doesn't interact with the balance conceptually or directly. It simply upsets the balance because its corrupting effects make darkness more prevalent that light which creates a domino effect leading to the upsetting and destruction of the balance. A notable example is how Clouse corrupting the Temple of Light which is the only light in the dark island was going to destroy the balance and subsequently the realms and we even start to see its effects on the landmasses of Ninjago.

So no, the dark matter doesn't directly interact with the balance as a concept but rather upsets the balance by corrupting the light and making darkness more prevalent.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dark matter doesn't interact with the balance conceptually or directly. It simply upsets the balance because its corrupting effects make darkness more prevalent that light which creates a butterfly effect leading to the upsetting and destruction of the balance.

No, we are shown by FSM that he directly controlled the light side and tried to make the world shaped by light only, until Overlord came and fought with him. The same works with the other side

A notable example is how Clouse corrupting the Temple of Light which is the only light in the dark island was going to destroy the balance and subsequently the realms and we even start to see its effects on the landmasses of Ninjago.

The last scans you sent litterally showcase Dark Matter spreading accross the world once the light is corrupted, the same matter that was going to destroy both the Ninjago Realm and the Balance

 

[AigerTheKing]

Dark matter doesn't interact with the balance conceptually or directly. It simply upsets the balance because its corrupting effects make darkness more prevalent that light which creates a butterfly effect leading to the upsetting and destruction of the balance. A notable example is how Clouse corrupting the Temple of Light which is the only light in the dark island was going to destroy the balance and subsequently the realms and we even start to see its effects on the landmasses of Ninjago.

So no, the dark matter doesn't directly interact with the balance as a concept but rather upsets the balance by corrupting the light and making darkness more prevalent.

It shouldn't be possible for Dark Matter to be capable of upsetting any side of the Balance without conceptually affecting it

 

[YmTheSuper]

The last scans you sent litterally showcase Dark Matter spreading accross the world once the light is corrupted, the same matter that was going to destroy both the Ninjago Realm and the Balance

Here's what happens, Clouse corrupts the Temple of Light the only source of light in the Dark Island this upsets the balance as its now tilted to the side of darkness. This leads to darkness spreading across the realm and the merger of the Dark Island and Ninjago Island and we're told that this will eventually affect and even destroy the realms. This is all explicitly told and shown.

We even see later how purifying the temple brought back the balance to its natural place and reverted all of the effects.

It shouldn't be possible for Dark Matter to be capable of upsetting any side of the Balance without conceptually affecting it

The balance is a concept that is affected by fluctuations in light and dark. If someone simply has the ability of corruption and no conceptual manipulation and uses his corruption to corrupt Ninjago this corruption will make darkness win over light and by consequence the balance will be upset. Simple corruption and purification of a large enough scale are sufficient to shift the balance, directly conceptually interacting with it isn't necessary.

Also another thing is that even if this was conceptual interaction I don't believe that would give the characters a blanket NPI for abstract existence, but rather NPI for this specific concept/abstraction, although I could be wrong in this specific regard.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Here's what happens, Clouse corrupts the Temple of Light the only source of light in the Dark Island this upsets the balance as its now tilted to the side of darkness. This leads to darkness spreading across the realm and the merger of the Dark Island and Ninjago Island and we're told that this will eventually affect and even destroy the realms. This is all explicitly told and shown.

You forgot that Dark Matter is litterally linked to Darkness/evil. What your scan showcase is that the presence of the TOL (Light) keeps the Darkness (Evil, which here is from Dark Matter) balanced and also prevents the spread of Evil accross the Realms. Clouse needs evil (which he gets from Dark Matter) in enough quantity to directly break the conceptual barrier from the TOL that keeps everything balanced and shift the Balance to the Dark side's favor. Even worse, Clouse blatantly confirms the TOL is a source of the Light side itself, and the Dark Matter can affect it

We even see later how purifying the temple brought back the balance to its natural place and reverted all of the effects.

Yeah because it stopped the spread of evil (which Dark Matter itself is made off) around the world

The balance is a concept that is affected by fluctuations in light and dark. If someone simply has the ability of corruption and no conceptual manipulation and uses his corruption to corrupt Ninjago this corruption will make darkness win over light and by consequence the balance will be upset. Simple corruption and purification of a large enough scale are sufficient to shift the balance, directly conceptually interacting with it isn't necessary.

There is a reason the Dark Matter is called concentrated evil by Garmadon in the OP. And they still needed to use evil itself to be capable of affecting and causing a shift in the Balance. We are told that the Dark Matter that Garmadon shot in S2 affected the Balance

Even by ignoring all of my yapping, interacting with the powers of concentrated Evil by itself is still a feat of AE1 NIP, and Zane + others EMs being shown to interact with attacks from Overlord in the OP would still lead to CM1 NIP

 

[Dark_Shadow-34513]

Bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm of the same opinion as Planck.