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Loosening Up Tier 1 Rules

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This was a massive discussion that came up in the oc room that involved like 5 mods and a TON of regulars, but I couldnt get the specifications, just the gist, that tier 1 rules and stuff should be updated to be at least a bit more lax. I'll ping the guys who participated in the discussion on discord for them to come here and say their peace :0

EDIT: The main point of conversation was that narrative justification should not be the main way tier 1 cosmologies are judged, as many cosmologies do not have tier 1 constructs as an essential thing that would collapse the cosmology if removed. Rather, it should be more focused on motives and effort put into the story.
 
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but I couldnt get the specifications, just the gist, that tier 1 rules and stuff should be updated to be at least a bit more lax.
Main point was that, basically, narrative justification should be less of a factor in favour of focusing more on motives and effort poured into making an actual story. There's extremely few settings that actually need to be tier 1 to work, so it ends up becoming really redundant to have that as a rule. Since, while these sorts of pages should still have a ton of scrutiny put onto them, it's absolutely possible to make something of that scale good quality and not be focused on powerscaling. So with that change we're still keeping the garbage out whilst being more fair to people submitting things that are actually decent
 
okay, but there needs to be an actual suggestion of what you want in replacement of the current rule for this thread to be meaningful to the cause.
 
okay, but there needs to be an actual suggestion of what you want in replacement of the current rule for this thread to be meaningful to the cause.
I was talking to flip, since he didn't seem to understand what people were worried about

I haven't really thought out this part as much and someone will probably have a better idea than me, but what I'm basically saying is that the narrative justification aspect should be scaled way down to something optional, or at least not the most important consideration. It feels pretty unfair for people who actually put a lot of thought into what they make and clearly isn't just being made for the sake of being broken, but can't get their verse accepted solely because their idea can still work at a lower tier easily. That's my piece
 
there needs to be an actual suggestion of what you want in replacement of the current rule for this thread to be meaningful to the cause.
Hm, that's fair

On top of the 6th rule staying (still there but not a primary focus), maybe this one could be something along the lines of

"7: Motives & Effort. The most crucial portion is the motives behind putting a tier 1 structure or scaling into your verse, as well as the effort you put into said structures and the verse as a whole."

Am I allowed to give my own thoughts and ideas or is just a Flip thing
You can absolutely give your thoughts and ideas, I pinged everyone who participated for a reason :]
 
Hm, that's fair

On top of the 6th rule staying (still there but not a primary focus), maybe this one could be something along the lines of

"7: Motives & Effort. The most crucial portion is the motives behind putting a tier 1 structure or scaling into your verse, as well as the effort you put into said structures and the verse as a whole."


You can absolutely give your thoughts and ideas, I pinged everyone who participated for a reason :]
Neat
 
Not every story has ‘proper’ narrative reasoning as our rules currently define, and it’s difficult for authors to justify everything down to the letter when they are scrutinized for everything they may or may not place on their cosmology blog. The rules are also a product of the old staff team, if I remember correctly. They overcorrected as a result of the purge being fresh. Times are different now, so I believe they are due for a change.

I agree with Flip’s proposal, the effort and general quality of a work should be judged moreso than the necessity of including tier 1 concepts. Lots of good main wiki works wouldn’t be able to be indexed on fcoc under our current rules due to lacking sufficient narrative reasoning for their whole structure. Narrative reasoning is useful for keeping out your stereotypical ‘my oc will be the strongest’ powerscalers but having the strongest thing isn’t the intention of everyone who makes a tier 1 series. It should be easy for us to judge the difference between a genuine work with passion and effort put in and the regular rejected slop.
 
Not every story has ‘proper’ narrative reasoning as our rules currently define, and it’s difficult for authors to justify everything down to the letter when they are scrutinized for everything they may or may not place on their cosmology blog. The rules are also a product of the old staff team, if I remember correctly. They overcorrected as a result of the purge being fresh. Times are different now, so I believe they are due for a change.

I agree with Flip’s proposal, the effort and
general quality of a work should be judged moreso than the necessity of including tier 1 concepts. Lots of good main wiki works wouldn’t be able to be indexed on fcoc under our current rules due to lacking sufficient narrative reasoning for their whole structure. Narrative reasoning is useful for keeping out your stereotypical ‘my oc will be the strongest’ powerscalers but having the strongest thing isn’t the intention of everyone who makes a tier 1 series. It should be easy for us to judge the difference between a genuine work with passion and effort put in and the regular rejected slop.
Amazing answer
 
Not every story has ‘proper’ narrative reasoning as our rules currently define, and it’s difficult for authors to justify everything down to the letter when they are scrutinized for everything they may or may not place on their cosmology blog. The rules are also a product of the old staff team, if I remember correctly. They overcorrected as a result of the purge being fresh. Times are different now, so I believe they are due for a change.

I agree with Flip’s proposal, the effort and general quality of a work should be judged moreso than the necessity of including tier 1 concepts. Lots of good main wiki works wouldn’t be able to be indexed on fcoc under our current rules due to lacking sufficient narrative reasoning for their whole structure. Narrative reasoning is useful for keeping out your stereotypical ‘my oc will be the strongest’ powerscalers but having the strongest thing isn’t the intention of everyone who makes a tier 1 series. It should be easy for us to judge the difference between a genuine work with passion and effort put in and the regular rejected slop.
Well said! Pretty much my take on the matter
 
Not every story has ‘proper’ narrative reasoning as our rules currently define, and it’s difficult for authors to justify everything down to the letter when they are scrutinized for everything they may or may not place on their cosmology blog. The rules are also a product of the old staff team, if I remember correctly. They overcorrected as a result of the purge being fresh. Times are different now, so I believe they are due for a change.

I agree with Flip’s proposal, the effort and general quality of a work should be judged moreso than the necessity of including tier 1 concepts. Lots of good main wiki works wouldn’t be able to be indexed on fcoc under our current rules due to lacking sufficient narrative reasoning for their whole structure. Narrative reasoning is useful for keeping out your stereotypical ‘my oc will be the strongest’ powerscalers but having the strongest thing isn’t the intention of everyone who makes a tier 1 series. It should be easy for us to judge the difference between a genuine work with passion and effort put in and the regular rejected slop.
This just about sums it up perfectly :]
 
Interesting topic, here are my thoughts on it.

Imo, there is no necessity or justification for any character to be Tier 1, other than the author wanting them to be that way.

Sure you can describe many realms and structures that may sum the verse up to 1-A or High 1-A and describe their function and narrative significance but ultimately those structures are not essential, and you can tell any kind of story without it ever needing to be Tier 1, and the only reason it would go there is simply because the you want it to go there and there is nothing wrong with that. It's not wrong to wanna write very powerful verses/characters, and any kind of writing is okay and valid.

So when it comes to tier 1 rules, I think a balance must be achieved between extreme strictness and total lawlessness. I am old enough on this forum to remember 2019/2020 pre-purge days where everyone (including myself) made many 1-A to High 1-A characters whose profiles were poorly made, riddled with typos, and gave no idea on what the character is, their setting, and their position in it. Rules should focus more on consistency and format, where structures and worldbuilding of the verse (or, if just a character, their own nature) is properly described, and no typos on pages. Narrative justification to an extent where it is hard to describe, like if I were to make X realm that sees the universe as nothing, thus making it 1-A, how would I narratively justify its existence aside from the fact that I just wanted it to be that way? I don't know, honestly, if it is consistent and works well it should be fine, and intent is also important; you wouldn't want someone to just spam the wiki with 1-A/High 1-A characters. It's the same sort of intent applied to Strongest on FCOC list, isn't it?


Anyway, my rambling is over. This may all be a nonsensical mess, I just wanted to say what I think about it atm.
 
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Interesting topic, here are my thoughts on it.

Imo, there is no necessity or justification for any character to be Tier 1, other than the author wanting them to be that way.

Sure you can describe many realms and structures that may sum the verse up to 1-A or High 1-A and describe their function and narrative significance but ultimately those structures are not essential, and you can tell any kind of story without it ever needing to be Tier 1, and the only reason it would go there is simply because the you want it to go there and there is nothing wrong with that. It's not wrong to wanna write very powerful verses/characters, and any kind of writing is okay and valid.

So when it comes to tier 1 rules, I think a balance must be achieved between extreme strictness and total lawlessness. I am old enough on this forum to remember 2019/2020 pre-purge days where everyone (including myself) made many 1-A to High 1-A characters whose profiles were poorly made, riddled with typos, and gave no idea on what the character is, their setting, and their position in it. Rules should focus more on consistency and format, where structures and worldbuilding of the verse (or, if just a character, their own nature) is properly described, and no typos on pages. Narrative justification to an extent where it is hard to describe, like if I were to make X realm that sees the universe as nothing, thus making it 1-A, how would I narratively justify its existence aside from the fact that I just wanted it to be that way? I don't know, honestly, if it is consistent and works well it should be fine, and intent is also important; you wouldn't want someone to just spam the wiki with 1-A/High 1-A characters. It's the same sort of intent applied to Strongest on FCOC list, isn't it?


Anyway, my rambling is over. This may all be a nonsensical mess, I just wanted to say what I think about it atm.
Well said 👏
 
Readily on board with the ideas being discussed here, with the only uncertainty around the judgement of motive, cause that can be pretty difficult to gauge and pretty easy to mask
 
Readily on board with the ideas being discussed here, with the only uncertainty around the judgement of motive, cause that can be pretty difficult to gauge and pretty easy to mask
Does the masking of it really matter though? If it seems "worked on" Enough, then it should be able to be there
 
Does the masking of it really matter though? If it seems "worked on" Enough, then it should be able to be there
It does matter. If the point of making the thing is to put it on the wiki or just make it super strong that is NOT good, the motive is very important and being able to mask that is a problem

Maybe having the mods ask for some of the source material would help with this potential problem :3
 
I mean, wiki currently has extremely powerful, borderline unbeateble without stomping characters. How can we know the author's motive for making them? We can't read people's minds, and there is nothing wrong with making such characters to begin with given context.

I think that if they are made in a consistent manner that make sense and qualify for their position. Also I think author of such chatacters probably should not try to make matchups with them, like, if your chatacter is so powerful that it would stomp 99.9% of the wiki and would only be defeated (and stomped) by another a few who scale higher (at one point a few tier 0 characters wiki has), what's the point of making matches with them? One can make them, their profile would be for indexing for the most part. They'd be known. Not hurt anyone. Not set a precedent where everyone is trying to one-up each other by neverending series of cosmology blogs to scale higher.
 
I mean, wiki currently has extremely powerful, borderline unbeateble without stomping characters. How can we know the author's motive for making them? We can't read people's minds, and there is nothing wrong with making such characters to begin with given context.

I think that if they are made in a consistent manner that make sense and qualify for their position. Also I think author of such chatacters probably should not try to make matchups with them, like, if your chatacter is so powerful that it would stomp 99.9% of the wiki and would only be defeated (and stomped) by another a few who scale higher (at one point a few tier 0 characters wiki has), what's the point of making matches with them? One can make them, their profile would be for indexing for the most part. They'd be known. Not hurt anyone. Not set a precedent where everyone is trying to one-up each other by neverending series of cosmology blogs to scale higher.
Isnt there a rule where its harder to get an outer character to be accepted than a low 1-C
 
Isnt there a rule where its harder to get an outer character to be accepted than a low 1-C
Not sure how this is related to what I said but good point. I don't know if rule exists, the criteria seems to be the same across the board for Tier 1, which is odd since there is a huge difference from making an 6d cosmology (what I made that got accepted) and making a 1-A to High 1-A cosmology.

I guess dividing tier 1/0 at least to 2, for example from Low 1-C to High 1-B and Low 1-A to 0, and applying different criteria that also goes more strict as it goes up within inside the division may work. I think criteria can focus on consistency, formating, quality, and accuracy, rather than something like narrative justification (especially for lower Tier 1)
 
Not sure how this is related to what I said but good point. I don't know if rule exists, the criteria seems to be the same across the board for Tier 1, which is odd since there is a huge difference from making an 6d cosmology (what I made that got accepted) and making a 1-A to High 1-A cosmology.

I guess dividing tier 1/0 at least to 2, for example from Low 1-C to High 1-B and Low 1-A to 0, and applying different criteria that also goes more strict as it goes up within inside the division may work. I think criteria can focus on consistency, formating, quality, and accuracy, rather than something like narrative justification (especially for lower Tier 1)
Low-key I find that a good idea, considering that while one is simply higher dimensions and infinite dimensions, the other goes way above into beyond dimensional stuff
 
If the same (or similar) narrative stakes can be achieved by lower stakes then there should be an attempt to have a bigger narrative pull than just having that powerset for the sake of it. The whole point is so that authors have to actually sit on that decision. Wanting to be something just because everyone else is writing their content that way isn't too far off if at all than writing something thats only self satisfying. Off topic but comparing VSB Tier 1/0s to FC/OC is something I just can't really agree with doing, SCP in its entirety should serve to highlight that. Most of the series in those tiers on the VSB side of things actually have editors on and people involved with the story from a purely financial and legal perspective.
 
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I don’t believe that people write the way they do because everyone else is writing their things a certain way. Writing is a very personal activity. Writers should explore what they believe is cool and fun to write about, whether that involves tier 1/0 is entirely up to them. If it does, it will be judged accordingly. It’s not like we would be accepting works that do it literally just because, or that changing the rule would suddenly allow bad work to get through. If the tier 1 concepts and structures tie into the story and themes people are creating, and are consistent with the rest of the work and have a general actual reason to be there, I don’t see much of a reason to reject them just based on their existence not being entirely narratively justifiable from every angle.
 
It shouldn't just be a nebulous system of whether or not we like something. There should be some grounding in place for people to read that pushes for creativity while having as little impact on the story as possible. I just want to avoid seeing encouraging something, entirely, poisoniously self serving. Again to ring on the differences between VSB and FC/OC, FC/OC has creators directly involved from a wide variety of different writing backgrounds and perspectives. It isn't just fans of the series or verses but the writers themselves, thats where my concern is.
 
It shouldn't just be a nebulous system of whether or not we like something. There should be some grounding in place for people to read that pushes for creativity while having as little impact on the story as possible. I just want to avoid seeing encouraging something, entirely, poisoniously self serving. Again to ring on the differences between VSB and FC/OC, FC/OC has creators directly involved from a wide variety of different writing backgrounds and perspectives. It isn't just fans of the series or verses but the writers themselves, thats where my concern is.
Yeah, we should probably find a rule thats Strict enough to prevent bad tier 1s, but loose enough to where you dont have to have a narrative that is specifically designed for it. Because theres only a few good narrative justifications for tier 1.
 
There are a few things I would like to say here.

First off, while I agree with the views of the other mods in this thread and Flip, the current proposal does not satisfy me. What I propose instead is in addition to Flip's proposal, which other than what has already been said, are as follows:

1. Reword the 6th concept to:
Narrative Consistency: It is imperative to maintain consistency with the narrative when it comes to matters relating to cosmology and characters. The cosmology and the placement of the characters should align with the story being told, maintaining coherence and congruency with the narrative.
2. Delete this part of the 'Rules section:
Note that these standards are significantly lighter for characters below Low 1-A, as while they are still tier 1, their cosmologies tend to be more simple overall.
3. Reword this part of the 'Rules' section:
The most important part of a future tier 1 or 0 page is the narrative justification for why a character is tier 1 or 0—and no, "because I wanted them to be" is not a sufficient answer. There should be a tangible, meaningful narrative impact as a result of the cosmology being on the level that it is. High-tiered cosmology and abilities has ramifications on the plot and how it is written, and if those are not properly respected, the chances of the verse or character being accepted is rather low. You should be able to explain what that level of power does that couldn't be done at a notably lower level of power, such as tier 2, as well as explain how it is reflected in the plot as a whole, such as during fights and in day-to-day interactions.
Into this:
A highly important part of a future tier 1 or 0 page is the consistency of characters, the cosmology, and the content that is being presented on these pages with the narrative behind them. This means that these characters and cosmological concepts — other than having some kind of purpose or reason to exist — must not derail and/or go against the themes and the plot of the story being told. The impact and effects that the cosmological concepts might have on the story must be considered, and the more effort one puts into such, the better your chances will be at being accepted. Any specific examples of said concepts and their implementation within the original source media itself can be provided for better verity and explanation, which would greatly improve the chances of acceptance, though it is not strictly required.
4. The 7th concept suggestion would instead be:
7. Motives & Effort: Some of the most important considerations are the motives and intent behind the cosmology and characters, as well as the effort put into them. Preferably, there should be tangible effort visible in the pages made, showcasing that, even if perhaps without grand reason nor deep justification, the cosmological concepts and the characters made are well thought-out and still fulfill the previous requirement of consistency.

Secondly, I would also like to explain my reasoning for some of these and several responses to other messages, as well as several other common statements regarding this topic.

If the same (or similar) narrative stakes can be achieved by lower stakes then there should be an attempt to have a bigger narrative pull than just having that powerset for the sake of it.
While this is true to an extent, the same thing and other similar statements, such as "if this story can be done at a lower scale/level of power then why not?" can be applied to a LOT of things, not just Tier 1 things. Somebody can make a story about two nations fighting but make each of the nations having entire galaxies as their territory and you can still apply this line of thinking to that, asking why not just make two normal sized countries or even small countries instead? I find that this a flawed way of thinking and in the end only serves to limit the creativity of others and the things that they can create.

This is partly the reason why I am proposing these changes: to shift from 'narrative justification' to 'narrative consistency'. I am one who believes that it is fundamentally impossible to truly justify Tier 1 as absolutely necessary in the way the wiki demands currently without essentially making up reasons and writing in a very specific way to get your verse accepted, which is obviously not what we want. The focus should be placed more on the actual quality and effort of the content, as well as the consistency of such in relation to the actual story, as I have once argued that something should still be valid unless it's absolutely bereft of purpose or derails and/or goes against the themes of the story in the first place.

Wanting to be something just because everyone else is writing their content that way isn't too far off if at all than writing something thats only self satisfying.
I just want to avoid seeing encouraging something, entirely, poisoniously self serving.
The thing is though, writing something that's only self-satisfying isn't inherently a bad thing. To use an example my verse is primarily just for self-satisfaction — I write for myself first and foremost, therefore everything in it are things I like and things that I want to put in it. Does this mean everything there is bad? No, it doesn't. This is something highly influenced by my own philosophies, and though I will not go off-topic and get into that, I just wanted to make my stance on this clear.

We shouldn't reject something because we find its reason for creation to be insufficient, because who are we to judge that? Rather than focusing on that, we should, once again, focus on the actual quality and effort of the content rather than anything else in my opinion. Even if there isn't any deep reason, if the creator of a particular story wants to include something simply because they want to, then it should still be fine as long as the things I stated before are fulfilled. As long as it isn't something like 'I want to make the strongest verse' (which directly goes against the wiki's current goals) then it should be fine.

And finally, to end it all, I would also like to say that while these are my personal opinions and proposals, I do not fully agree with this either. If it were completely up to me, I would simply put the standards as 'anything with good quality would be fine' and that would be all. I find all these standards and rules and reviews as pretentious and unnecessary for a simple powerscaling site for fan projects and original characters — something completely unserious and many would find childish even. In other words, it's not that deep bro. But alas, since such is what the people want nowadays, here are my views for what would fit the site the most and a huge improvement to the previous rules in place, which in my opinion are a relic of its time and are now obsolete.

That would be all from me for this message, if needed I will send more messages in this thread down the line, but at the very least, I'll watch for the time being.
 
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The content on FC/OC ranges from extremely detailed and painstakingly thought out verses. that can sample and inovate on the concepts they present on in a professional manner to verses that are purely extant because someone wanted to make their own version of Goku or a stick figure character. That is a indescribably wide gambit of user perspectives. It's been a few years since this happened, people don't remember it, and we have people here who weren't around for it, but when Promestien deleted all the wiki's Tier 1/0s, they ended up deleting nearly a 1/6th of the wiki's pages at the time.

What users see on the site is monumentally important to their perception of it. It's what they'll be inspired to contribute and follow. In the mos exreme cases it literally changes ones entire perspective on how the site functions. That goes doubly so for policies such as this one which covers a big part of the site as whole. Undoubtedly, no matter what, people will warp their stories based on appealing to either the sites stated rules, or just what a staff member writes in a discord server. Thats really just the nature of running a creative website like this. Honestly that scares me, because I know full, full full well, from just trying to learn bot code that the wiki isn't perfect, I'm not perfect, and neither is my own perspetive on it. If do publish something on the wiki I want consider that wide gambit of perspectives where reasonably possible.

Thats where I'm coming from with my stance, All of this is a passion project for all of the wiki contributors at the end of the day, no matter how they choose to interact with the site.
 
The content on FC/OC ranges from extremely detailed and painstakingly thought out verses. that can sample and inovate on the concepts they present on in a professional manner to verses that are purely extant because someone wanted to make their own version of Goku or a stick figure character. That is a indescribably wide gambit of user perspectives. It's been a few years since this happened, people don't remember it, and we have people here who weren't around for it, but when Promestien deleted all the wiki's Tier 1/0s, they ended up deleting nearly a 1/6th of the wiki's pages at the time.

What users see on the site is monumentally important to their perception of it. It's what they'll be inspired to contribute and follow. In the mos exreme cases it literally changes ones entire perspective on how the site functions. That goes doubly so for policies such as this one which covers a big part of the site as whole. Undoubtedly, no matter what, people will warp their stories based on appealing to either the sites stated rules, or just what a staff member writes in a discord server. Thats really just the nature of running a creative website like this. Honestly that scares me, because I know full, full full well, from just trying to learn bot code that the wiki isn't perfect, I'm not perfect, and neither is my own perspetive on it. If do publish something on the wiki I want consider that wide gambit of perspectives where reasonably possible.

Thats where I'm coming from with my stance, All of this is a passion project for all of the wiki contributors at the end of the day, no matter how they choose to interact with the site.
I do see where you’re coming from, I really do. It really is a scope that can’t be summed up in words. At the same time, that’s why threads & suggestions like these are being made, cause I’m of the belief that something like effort & intent will always trump the “narrative justification” stuff, cause I said elsewhere, 95% of high tier works have authors that have zero to minimalist understanding of the scale of their works (at least, as far as this site & its partners are concerned).

Either way, whether or not the proposal goes through I think this is a sign of taking steps in the right direction. Ironically, this is coming from someone who’s on n’ off on this site 😅
 
Kinda late to say this but Kanogami’s proposal makes the most sense to me, especially since I had expressed pretty much the same concerns at the start of the thread. If that’s what we’re going with, which it seems to be, I’m cool with it. Don’t have much else to add
 
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