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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

Do you all think these ships are performing teleporation or nah?

I'm thinking they do given the big spaceship and Frigate Skullian use portals and the small ships have similar ripple effects, but the portrayal is pretty different
granted, the portrayal of the big spaceship and skullian is also different but you get the point
 
AyOgUyS said:
I'm actually not too sure on whether or not Master Overlord actually even uses the Master Emerald's power ngl (if he does, its to a pretty limited extent). Sure it's physically attached to him but Sonic states he's not in a super state anymore which is backed up by the base cast being able to cause him pain and Knuckles inflicting minor but still visible physical damage, which should be impossible since Super Forms are supposed to be completely invulnerable.
Click to expand...
That's simply because the Master Emerald doesn't grant Invulnerability inherently, that's something a Super Form does. Sonic himself specifically notes that Overlord is no longer Invulnerable.

That doesn't really speak on whether he's using the Master Emerald. There would be no reason for him to go Overlord if it didn't provide some buff, that would be VERY stupid of Neo. He can be arrogant, but I don't think to such an extent that he is essentially making himself a larger target if there was no buff at all. He could have just went Super with the Master Emerald like Mecha Mk. II did, so he saw some reason to transform (and this ties into my response below). Some of it is absolutely just dogwater writing.
AyOgUyS said:
He also couldn't blitz the cast despite Super Neo being able to, which makes me think the transformation might legit have made him weaker. Maybe the Master Emerald just acts like a battery that Overlord doesn't actually draw any power from.
Click to expand...
As hilarious as it would be for Master Overlord to be weaker, nah. The narration within the comic and in the intro pages before the comic starts (the portion where they list the characters) both state Master Overlord is his Ultimate and final form.

The issue goes back to the Invulnerability of a Super State.
 
I've got personal desires for an IDW adaptation if we ever get one (slower and longer pacing, older age rating/aimed at older audience), but one of the only plot changes would be reworking Master Overlord. I just feel like he doesn't work too well.
 
ShakeResounding said:
That's simply because the Master Emerald doesn't grant Invulnerability inherently, that's something a Super Form does. Sonic himself specifically notes that Overlord is no longer Invulnerable.

That doesn't really speak on whether he's using the Master Emerald. There would be no reason for him to go Overlord if it didn't provide some buff, that would be VERY stupid of Neo. He can be arrogant, but I don't think to such an extent that he is essentially making himself a larger target if there was no buff at all. He could have just went Super with the Master Emerald like Mecha Mk. II did, so he saw some reason to transform (and this ties into my response below). Some of it is absolutely just dogwater writing.

As hilarious as it would be for Master Overlord to be weaker, nah. The narration within the comic and in the intro pages before the comic starts (the portion where they list the characters) both state Master Overlord is his Ultimate and final form.

The issue goes back to the Invulnerability of a Super State.
Click to expand...
Legit had to be plot nerfed into basically not doing anything purely for the cast to have a chance at winning. He didn't even use any of his powers either, he purely went for a few melee attacks even though he can ******* stop time or at least copy everyone else's powers to even the playing field.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Legit had to be plot nerfed into basically not doing anything purely for the cast to have a chance at winning. He didn't even use any of his powers either, he purely went for a few melee attacks even though he can ******* stop time or at least copy everyone else's powers to even the playing field.
Click to expand...
Yeahhhh there really is no excuse for Master Overlord to go down the way he did. Unironically, it's probably the worst example of PIS in the entire franchise.
 
ShakeResounding said:
There would be no reason for him to go Overlord if it didn't provide some buff, that would be VERY stupid of Neo. He can be arrogant, but I don't think to such an extent that he is essentially making himself a larger target if there was no buff at all. He could have just went Super with the Master Emerald like Mecha Mk. II did, so he saw some reason to transform (and this ties into my response below). Some of it is absolutely just dogwater writing.
Click to expand...
I mean perhaps the point was to gain more raw stats while trading off Super Form powers? But regardless, it’s still stupid because suddenly he just doesn’t make any attempt to fight back and just floats there screaming until his ass gets kicked
 
But enough about my brother’s stupid decisions, anybody have the scan that says Phantom Ruby Clones have powers just as formidable as their original counterparts?
 
AyOgUyS said:
I mean perhaps the point was to gain more raw stats while trading off Super Form powers? But regardless, it’s still stupid because suddenly he just doesn’t make any attempt to fight back and just floats there screaming until his ass gets kicked
Click to expand...
Yeah, the writer just turned his ******* brain off even though the last time he took a form like this he could actually fight back and fight back hard. Also whatever the hell happened to his reactive evolution? That didn't come up once despite how many people were attacking him.
 
AyOgUyS said:
But enough about my brother’s stupid decisions, anybody have the scan that says Phantom Ruby Clones have powers just as formidable as their original counterparts?
Click to expand...
Yep, and ofc earlier on Shadow states they have mass and form.
Japanese
English

If there's any doubt, Sonic has a full fight with Zavok as well as fighting a (PR buffed?) Metal Sonic. They also pulled their own weight in jumping Sonic, tho Infinite did most of the work ofc lol
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Yeah, the writer just turned his ******* brain off even though the last time he took a form like this he could actually fight back and fight back hard. Also whatever the hell happened to his reactive evolution? That didn't come up once despite how many people were attacking him.
Click to expand...
Metal Overlord: Needs three Super Forms to combine their power just to damage him
Super Neo: Easily beat down Sonic and Knux, got caught lacking once and then instantly locked in and proceeded to copy Shadow’s biodata
BASE Neo: Fought and easily beat down Sonic, almost killing him if not for Tails
Master Overlord: Stood around swiping uselessly letting everyone hit him over and over until he got depowered
 
AyOgUyS said:
I mean perhaps the point was to gain more raw stats while trading off Super Form powers?
Click to expand...
I think that is exactly what happened, yep. Which, uh... did not go so good lol.
TheStinkeer said:
Yep, and ofc earlier on Shadow states they have mass and form.
Japanese
English

If there's any doubt, Sonic has a full fight with Zavok as well as fighting a (PR buffed?) Metal Sonic.
Click to expand...
It's funny how a Phanton Ruby clone can have a full 3-minute fight with Sonic aboard the Death Egg, giving credence to the fact that Phantom Ruby clones are indeed mimicking the strength of the real deal, and then seeing Charmy Bee one-shot a (iirc) Metal Sonic clone lmfao
 
ShakeResounding said:
I think that is exactly what happened, yep. Which, uh... did not go so good lol.
Click to expand...
My brother sure does make dumb decisions sometimes...
ShakeResounding said:
It's funny how a Phanton Ruby clone can have a full 3-minute fight with Sonic aboard the Death Egg, giving credence to the fact that Phantom Ruby clones are indeed mimicking the strength of the real deal, and then seeing Charmy Bee one-shot a (iirc) Metal Sonic clone lmfao
Click to expand...
This downscales Metal to below average human level and since metal is equal to sonic who wasn't atomized by attacks from the Titans who can box super sonic who wasn't atomized by The End's big purple Kamehameha, this downscales the entire sonic verse to below average human!!1!!!!1
 
ShakeResounding said:
I think that is exactly what happened, yep. Which, uh... did not go so good lol.

It's funny how a Phanton Ruby clone can have a full 3-minute fight with Sonic aboard the Death Egg, giving credence to the fact that Phantom Ruby clones are indeed mimicking the strength of the real deal, and then seeing Charmy Bee one-shot a (iirc) Metal Sonic clone lmfao
Click to expand...
AD AD AD AD
 
AyOgUyS said:
This downscales Metal to below average human level and since metal is equal to sonic who wasn't atomized by attacks from the Titans who can box super sonic who wasn't atomized by The End's big purple Kamehameha, this downscales the entire sonic verse to below average human!!1!!!!1
Click to expand...
This is how some Sonic fans would unironically scale Sonic /hj

There's a weird thing I noticed between some Sonic (& Undertale fans) that they occasionally downplay their own characters to absurd degrees. Like there's those who like grounded characters, and I'm not complaining that they do, enjoy the grounded interpretations all you want, I don't wanna stop you! But even then you got some people seriously thinking they're gonna be able to physically harm the characters with their bare hands and it's like alright, let's take a step back 😭
 
ShakeResounding said:
It isn't the same and I disagree with those who say it is. Metal Overlord needed 3 Super Forms with a decent charge time to even stand a chance, while Master Overlord was getting damaged by Tangle.

The only thing that's the same is most of the appearance, the "Overlord" portion of the name being shared, and Metal having needed biodata in-part to accomplish the transformations (and even then, Master Overlord has less biodata overall).
Click to expand...
They’re not the exact same thing, but they are supposed to be functionally around the same.

Before Metal turned into Master Overlord, he called needing so much biodata back during Heroes a “limitation”. This suggests that mechanically, Master Overlord needing less biodata isn’t because it’s weaker than Metal Overlord or anything like that, but rather that Metal just needs less components to achieve the form compared to before. Couple that with both the comic and Ian calling Master Overlord Metal Overlord (I don’t have the scans on me, but I imagine Omegabronic does), as well as Master Overlord being his “ultimate form”, and it’s clear they’re supposed to be at least comparable.

Unfortunately his on-screen presence just doesn’t match his consistent statements at all which is really stupid. Normally I’d just say the statements were exaggerating or inaccurate, but that doesn’t work so well when we’re talking about a successor to Metal Overlord with an even more grandiose name. It’s not like he’s being compared to Solaris or something like that either, he’s being compared to Metal’s own previous forms.

IMO the entire fight with him should be considered PIS, and he should be 1-C like Metal Overlord. There are other characters/forms on the wiki who ignore all their on-screen showings if they have notable statements that contradict it, like Dreamy Bowser.
 
AyOgUyS said:
How can they be the same transformation if the sources used to obtain such transformations are different?
Click to expand...
Because... they are said to be the same form... therefore they are the same form? The sources being different matters... because? Super Mecha Sonic is still a Superform even tho it uses a different source than the Chaos Emeralds... i really don't see your point
 
ShakeResounding said:
It isn't the same and I disagree with those who say it is. Metal Overlord needed 3 Super Forms with a decent charge time to even stand a chance, while Master Overlord was getting damaged by Tangle.
Click to expand...
Outlier and PIS... you do know it is STRONGER than Super Neo Metal, who grossly overpowered and blitzed Sonic and Knuckles... right?

ShakeResounding said:
The only thing that's the same is most of the appearance, the "Overlord" portion of the name being shared, and Metal having needed biodata in-part to accomplish the transformations (and even then, Master Overlord has less biodata overall).
Click to expand...
They are literally said to be the same form by both chars in universe and WOG... you are just plain wrong here
 
AyOgUyS said:
I mean:
Super Neo drew enough power from the Master Emerald to enter a true Super State meanwhile Master Overlord is explicitly not in a true Super State
Super Neo blitzed Sonic and Knuckles multiple times without even trying to meanwhile Master Overlord landed like 0 attacks on them other than his initial grab
Super Neo could only be "damaged" by Shadow's anti-Super State technique draining his transformation (aka hax rather than AP) meanwhile Master Overlord is screaming in pain from the base cast hitting him
Click to expand...
Stated to be his "final form" that Super Neo says he "didn't even need" against Sonic and Knuckles... outlier for base cast
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
They’re not the exact same thing, but they are supposed to be functionally around the same.

Before Metal turned into Master Overlord, he called needing so much biodata back during Heroes a “limitation”. This suggests that mechanically, Master Overlord needing less biodata isn’t because it’s weaker than Metal Overlord or anything like that, but rather that Metal just needs less components to achieve the form compared to before. Couple that with both the comic and Ian calling Master Overlord Metal Overlord (I don’t have the scans on me, but I imagine Omegabronic does), as well as Master Overlord being his “ultimate form”, and it’s clear they’re supposed to be at least comparable.

Unfortunately his on-screen presence just doesn’t match his consistent statements at all which is really stupid. Normally I’d just say the statements were exaggerating or inaccurate, but that doesn’t work so well when we’re talking about a successor to Metal Overlord with an even more grandiose name. It’s not like he’s being compared to Solaris or something like that either, he’s being compared to Metal’s own previous forms.

IMO the entire fight with him should be considered PIS, and he should be 1-C like Metal Overlord. There are other characters/forms on the wiki who ignore all their on-screen showings if they have notable statements that contradict it, like Dreamy Bowser.
Click to expand...
Exactly... i really don't get why we don't scale him properly... "oh base Tangle harmed and kept up with him" k so? We are till upscalling him FAR FAR above the base cast in speed and power... either downgrade him to base cast level or upgrade him to what he should be... cherrypicking a "middle ground" where the premisse is contradicted doesn't make sende
 
Omegabronic said:
Outlier and PIS... you do know it is STRONGER than Super Neo Metal, who grossly overpowered and blitzed Sonic and Knuckles... right?
Click to expand...
Do you actually even read this thread, or do you only read whatever you can obnoxiously argue against?

No shit I think it's more powerful, Sherlock. I literally defended the idea of it being more powerful when talking to @AyOgUyS. I told @XSOULOFCINDERX that it is the greatest example of PIS in the franchise. So why are you wasting both of our time, because I disagree with the tier you want for him? Get over it.
Omegabronic said:
They are literally said to be the same form by both chars in universe and WOG... you are just plain wrong here
Click to expand...
Bring all the statements you want, bring every piece of WoG you can. None of that is changing my mind that Master Overlord isn't even capable of tickling the balls of a 1-C, let alone having the exact same power as before.

If you guys wanna make a CRT upgrading him to that further down the line (after all these threads conclude), I won't get in your way or try to stop you.
Omegabronic said:
Exactly... i really don't get why we don't scale him properly... "oh base Tangle harmed and kept up with him" k so? We are till upscalling him FAR FAR above the base cast in speed and power... either downgrade him to base cast level or upgrade him to what he should be... cherrypicking a "middle ground" where the premisse is contradicted doesn't make sende
Click to expand...
You mean like how you were trying to shill Low 1-C Metal Overlord or some other nonsense? Funny of you to say a middle ground makes no sense when that is exactly what you were trying to do mere months ago. Is it only fine when you do it?
 
Last edited:
MysticMania said:
People'll replace your bone marrow with ants if you scale anyone to Sonic beyond just Shadow. imo It's honestly kinda ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Actual Reddit Syndrome.
Remus1998 said:
What do you mean by that
Click to expand...
That a bunch of people don't believe any of the cast (except Shadow, Metal, and arguably Blaze) properly scale to Sonic, which is brought up most often in Mario vs Sonic debates but which can be found elsewhere.

The notion is pretty ridiculous to me.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
They’re not the exact same thing, but they are supposed to be functionally around the same.

Before Metal turned into Master Overlord, he called needing so much biodata back during Heroes a “limitation”. This suggests that mechanically, Master Overlord needing less biodata isn’t because it’s weaker than Metal Overlord or anything like that, but rather that Metal just needs less components to achieve the form compared to before. Couple that with both the comic and Ian calling Master Overlord Metal Overlord (I don’t have the scans on me, but I imagine Omegabronic does), as well as Master Overlord being his “ultimate form”, and it’s clear they’re supposed to be at least comparable.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of the "ultimate" stuff and I have no doubt that Master Overlord IS stronger than Super Neo, that I can agree with entirely. Where it starts to get fuzzy for me is when people put him at 1-C. I can respect the opinion, I just don't quite share the sentiment.
Ghengiroo115 said:
Unfortunately his on-screen presence just doesn’t match his consistent statements at all which is really stupid. Normally I’d just say the statements were exaggerating or inaccurate, but that doesn’t work so well when we’re talking about a successor to Metal Overlord with an even more grandiose name. It’s not like he’s being compared to Solaris or something like that either, he’s being compared to Metal’s own previous forms.

IMO the entire fight with him should be considered PIS, and he should be 1-C like Metal Overlord. There are other characters/forms on the wiki who ignore all their on-screen showings if they have notable statements that contradict it, like Dreamy Bowser.
Click to expand...
I respect your opinion and if a 1-C upgrade thread were to happen, you'd get no opposition from me. I understand the scaling methodology here and I understand your reasonings, I don't want you or anybody to think I'm being purposefully obtuse.

Sorry for the triple post, everyone.
 
ShakeResounding said:
That a bunch of people don't believe any of the cast (except Shadow, Metal, and arguably Blaze) properly scale to Sonic, which is brought up most often in Mario vs Sonic debates but which can be found elsewhere.

The notion is pretty ridiculous to me.
Click to expand...
In theory its kinda valid, Sonic and Shadow are clearly better than others more often than not.

But specifically outside here it is stupid because those same people argue for universal Peach, Daisy, Toad and Waluigi and whatnot so like pffft
 
TMaakkonen said:
In theory its kinda valid, Sonic and Shadow are clearly better than others more often than not.
Click to expand...
For speed? Sure, I can buy that.

For ALL statistics? I have to disagree that there's any validity in that tbh (and I'm not saying that's what you were saying, I'm just speaking in general).
TMaakkonen said:
But specifically outside here it is stupid because those same people argue for universal Peach, Daisy, Toad and Waluigi and whatnot so like pffft
Click to expand...
It aggravates me to no end that people can have such blatant double-standards. If I were to be like them, I would have downgraded Mario instead of helping upgrade him.
 
ShakeResounding said:
For speed? Sure, I can buy that.

For ALL statistics? I have to disagree that there's any validity in that tbh (and I'm not saying that's what you were saying, I'm just speaking in general).
Click to expand...
Im not even sure can you properly quantify it. Its just nebulous 'Sonic and Shadow would beat everyone 1v1' plot shenanigans. Because indeed, there is no real quantifiable way to argue Sonic and Shadow stat stomp others to that big degeee, unless if you argue other dont scale to them at all which is ridicioulus.
 
Omegabronic said:
Because... they are said to be the same form... therefore they are the same form? The sources being different matters... because? Super Mecha Sonic is still a Superform even tho it uses a different source than the Chaos Emeralds... i really don't see your point
Click to expand...
The master emerald and chaos emeralds have the same type of energy. Master overlord does not have the same biodata as metal overlord. Now, does master overlord have higher raw stats than super neo? Maybe I can see that. But is his actual performance as impressive? Absolutely not.
 
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